Understanding the Puzzle of Wing Chun is for the Few not the Many!!! [Archive]

Matrix

03-09-2002, 08:55 PM

Wing Chun may be a puzzle, but all the pieces are there for you to see (over time). It may not always be clear what the individual pieces fit in until the connecting pieces have been securely inserted in the jigsaw, but puzzles take time to solve, and with persistence anyone can solve it. Some are much further along to road to completing it, and they have a much clearer view of the final image. While some are just getting the all the pieces on the table.

In the end though, everyone can enjoy the sense of accomplishment as long as they don't give up. If it is for "the few", then that is because "the many" have given up at some stage of the game. They have decided not to continue for one reason or another, or they may not have given it their best effort, but not because they did not have the ability to do so.

Matrix

vingtsunstudent

03-09-2002, 11:30 PM

roy
do you consider yourself in the few or the many?
vts

anerlich

03-10-2002, 03:52 AM

At present it may be for the few rather than the many.

A major reason for this IMHO is the attitude of certain instructors (and posters) who for egotistical reasons want to make the problem solving journey harder for the student than it needs to be through supposedly profound non-answers to reasonable questions.

Old Jong is correct. Elitism is for the small minded.

zuxingpogi

03-10-2002, 08:20 AM

Wing Chun is not a mystery if your instructor fully understands its aplications and potential, whilst not leaving his/her students in the dark. Wing Chun is actually quite straight forward as all the building blocks are pieced togeather, it is the students responsibility to understand the applications of the piece before progressing. This I think, has a major influence on alot of people, who try to hurry their wing chun skills without fulling understanding its purpose. The instructor can also only do so much, he/she should already know how the system works for them, but it is the journey of all students who learn the wing chun system to also find and understand how the system works for them. Every person being different, the system does not always work for one as it would for another. That is what makes the system so interesting and diverse, and that is what gives people the potential to become some of the greatest martial artists in the world aswell as giving the oportunity for ones martial downfall.
Peace
-Bernard

Matrix

03-10-2002, 08:39 AM

Yes, I like Old Jong's analogy of Lego blocks. It removes the element of secrecy that the term "puzzle" implies. That old Jong....he's one smart cookie :)

Matrix

DelicateSound

03-10-2002, 09:59 AM

To me [an outsider] it seems simpler to understand than other arts, due to its more scientific rules and principles.

Maybe it is harder to learn the subtleties, but it seems to me to be more logical - and therefore easier to learn.

Feel free to tear my thoughts into small pieces.

azwingchun

03-10-2002, 10:05 AM

I like the puzzle analogy, though I tell my students that Wing Chun training is more like a picture. I tell them that in the begining of training it is like looking at a picture. You can only see it in a 2 dimemsional way, as you progress in training, it is as if you are able to step a foot into the picture. You are not able to go to far but you are able now to smell the air, flowers and touch what is in the picture, later in advanced training you now can wander through the picture and eventually go over the hills and and experiment with what wasn't seen 2 dimensionally. Sounds kinda abstract but students seem to like this analogy.;)

reneritchie

03-10-2002, 12:55 PM

Michel,

I like the lego idea as well. I always thought of WCK just that way. While some systems want to teach you to make a boat or a car or a house, WCK gives you an assortment of building blocks then shows you the basic rules of building, so you can make pretty much anything you like.

Rgds,

RR

TjD

03-10-2002, 02:45 PM

but do realize that if you never learn how to teach yourself; eventually youll reach a plateau :)

peace
travis

Matrix

03-10-2002, 02:54 PM

I doubt that anyone would want to tear your thoughts to pieces, but one can never be too sure. ;)
In fact I appreciate hearing your comments as an "outsider".

Just a comment....I think that a casual observer may appreciate the simplicity of the art, only because they cannot see the complexities due to their subtle nature. As you've correctly pointed out, this makes it harder to learn, and yet easier...once you know.

Roy said it quite well in an earlier post:

"overly simplified Wing Chun becomes too mysterious....too complex, simply because many aspects of Wing Chun are missing. Therefore, a more complex Wing Chun actually becomes more simplified, and corelates with these formulas, as evidenced by the movements of the WIng Chun system."

Regards,
Matrix

Roy D. Anthony

03-10-2002, 10:14 PM

Excellent Matrix!!! you're catching on.:)

TjD- if you don't reach plateaus, you never learn!!!

Old Jong, what if the lego's are trying to be built by Scrabble squares?

Anerlich - Elitism is also for the great minded!!!
and smart posters also lead you through puzzles.....LOL

zuxingpogi - The teacher is not the only factor, The students also misinterpret the teacher's teachings!!! What then?

vts - I'm still learning!!! I consider myself an expert learner.....LOL

Actually Matrix, the many that didn't get it is also because they lack the foresight and understanding. However, in the words of another of my Sifu's, if the student doesn't understand , it's the Sifu's fault!!!

Rene, I like your painting philosophy. Cheers!!!

vingtsunstudent

03-10-2002, 10:26 PM

cool roy
i consider myself a pathetic begginer who just happens to like fighting & trying to explore my ving tsun.
vts

Roy D. Anthony

03-10-2002, 10:35 PM

Cool vts, I was there once too!!!.....it's a great place to be!!

zuxingpogi

03-11-2002, 09:17 AM

Roy D. Anthony, as I have said, every martial artist is different and therefore must learn to apply the art to themselves, the instructor can only do so much. This allows for martial brilliance and martial downfall. When the student misinterprets the instructor, then many things may happen. The student may then continue to train with such a misinterpretation in mind, this is possibly the hardest to correct for the practitioner must UN-teach themselves, and find themselves a better foundation back in the basics. Or the student may find that what they understood doesn’t work whilst trying to apply the misinterpretation, and hopefully correct their errors. There are many thousands of alternative scenarios. This does not mean that the martial arts are not for the many, it simply means that a misinterpretation has been made perhaps by mistake, lack of experience e.t.c. I never said that everything is up to the instructor, martial arts is a very individual journey, it is about achieving limits for oneself. Unfortunately misinterpretation happens sometimes along the way, which can be both beneficial in the fact that the person learns from their mistakes, or totally catastrophic.
The instructor is simply a guide to helping a student to be able to put the "blocks" as they have been called, in the right place and if the instructor understands the places where this "Lego set" is meant to fit together then it helps greatly. Think of him/her as the manual you get with a new Lego train set, depending on what set you got, there maybe a few typos in the manual due to a manufacturing error, or you may get a perfect manual (but they're arn't many). Therefore it is up to the person who is piecing them together to work out how to make this Lego train, also along the way, as you have mentioned, the person may not follow the manual correctly or misinterpret it. Therefore the train will not be properly made and it is up to the person who is building it to fix it. Sometimes however the person building it does not fix it, therefore thinking they have completed a Lego train that infact is not properly complete, a window may be put on wrongly for example and we all know that a piece is the hardest to fix once the train is actually built because the blocks around it also have to be removed (some people don't even bother). Also I must mention that one particular train does not suite every person, therefore the person must modify the train to suite their personal tastes eg.using red blocks instead of blue, regardless of what the manual says.
I hope that makes some sense.
As to my view on martial arts not being for the many, I agree to some extent, however everyone has the ability to become good martial artists, it is just curcumstance, lifestyle and other thousands of factors that do not allow for one to reach ones martial goals, it could even be said that factors influence people so they stop trying to complete the Lego train set and so they store it in the garage to be done some other time that may never come. Therefore only a few people actually make use of the Lego Train set they got for christmas, one darn hard train set to make, but simple if you can follow the instructions and have the mind to fix up the typos and misinterpretations, only a few have the circumstance to do this. (I could go on but I think this post is already long enough hehe)
Peace
-Bernard

Matrix

03-11-2002, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by Roy D. Anthony
TjD- if you don't reach plateaus, you never learn!!!
Read "Mastery" by George Leonard. You will learn to love the plateaus.

in the words of another of my Sifu's, if the student doesn't understand , it's the Sifu's fault!!! Hmmmmm.......my sifu says the same thing. Small world. ;)

Matrix

lotus kick

03-11-2002, 09:58 PM

give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he will eat for life. Unfortunally, there are those men that just refuse to learn.:(

reneritchie

03-12-2002, 09:22 AM

LT,

There's profound truth to that statement, but its often misunderstood. Teaching a man to fish involves a commitment of time and effort and a will to truly help. You must explain to him what fishing is, how to make a useable rod, how to use the rod, when to use the rod, what is a fish, what is an old boot, and all the other aspects, vital to their success (unless you just want to be a plick and ljust augh as they struggle and ultimately starve).

Many people confuse telling a man to fish with teaching him. "Go fish" is just lazy.

Rgds,

RR

Alpha Dog

03-12-2002, 09:40 AM

and he will register for this website back in 1969!

black and blue

03-12-2002, 09:49 AM

You wouldn't be a man with a whip in his hand, would you?

:)

If so, good to see you (as it were).

If not, ignore this little post.

Alpha Dog

03-12-2002, 09:51 AM

nope, not that good... yet!!

old jong

03-12-2002, 10:13 AM

Rene said it. ;)

Matrix

03-12-2002, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by lotus kick
.... there are those men that just refuse to learn.:( Lotus Kick,

There is a lot of truth in what you say. If the student is unwilling to follow, it is not up to the Sifu to change his/her mind. However, it is also important to note that if the student is willing, the Sifu also should ensure that his explanation is clear. Some students just learn differently. Some are a little slower to pick things up, they are not as gifted athletically and may require an explanation that approaches the issue in a different manner. No Sifu should waste one second trying to pry open a closed mind. They probably already have many other students who are open to them, but some may require a little extra attention.

Rene has offered a great explanation of the issue as well.

Regards,

Matrix

Alpha Dog

03-12-2002, 10:43 AM

I agree with what you're all saying, that learning is a two-way street, teacher has to know what he is doing too, yada yada. Some students, however, are as someone here put it like a clamshell that won't open.

My question is, should a Sifu allow these closed-minded students to remain in class and potentially exert a negative influence on other students, or should a student who has either no aptitude or no willingness to learn (or both) simply be asked to not come back?

Matrix

03-12-2002, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
My question is, should a Sifu allow these closed-minded students to remain in class and potentially exert a negative influence on other students, or should a student who has either no aptitude or no willingness to learn (or both) simply be asked to not come back? Without hesitation, they should be asked not to come back.
Matrix

reneritchie

03-12-2002, 11:39 AM

AD,

First, I'd try to make sure it wasn't a problem in teaching vs. learning methods. Some students learn visually, some verbally, some tactilely, etc. some can digest right away, some take time to digest. So after running the gammet of showing, telling, feeling, reviewing, etc., if they still seem to falter, I'd break it up into 2 catagories: ones who struggle but still really want to succeed (to these I'd give as much extra help as possible but make sure we both understood that it would be a long, slow road, and should only be pursued if they *really* wanted it, otherwise recommend they try something else and see if it was more to their apptitude); and the ones who don't (if they were being pushed by parents I'd recommend the parent stop pushing or push at something else, if they just wanted to rabble rowse, I'd recommend the door not hitting them on the way out).

This also brings in deliberately problematic students (abusive physically or verbally of others, intentionally distracting or misinformative, interested in showing off rather than learning, or just generally @$$holish behavior). Cancerous and good to expunge right away if you see no hope of rehabilitation (and even if you do, it can poison the environement if not quickly dealt with).

I don't currently teach, so I may be a little rusty on this stuff though.

Rgds,

RR

Alpha Dog

03-12-2002, 11:47 AM

It seems as though some teachers (not all!) of the martial arts have been too swayed by the ancient Philosophy of Cha Ch'ing to have the courage/respect for their art to make these kinds of judgement calls.

lotus kick

03-12-2002, 01:42 PM

when i say man, i mean you and other bozzos in this form. This form is use to share ideas and knowledge in a world wide format. Some people here, like you, are so busy trying to prove that you are Superior, all you do is making stupid comments that make yourself look Juvenile.

Roy D. Anthony

03-12-2002, 01:49 PM

What Rene said is true. However what I find to be a problem with these students, is the lack of the empty cup. Often times the students these days do not enter blindly which is a great thing, however can present a barrier to learning.
But when they enter the kwoon, many students start with their own agenda in mind, which makes it difficult for the Sifu to help the student help themselves. Just the other side of the coin.:)

Sabu

03-12-2002, 01:57 PM

When I first join my kuen, I just want to supplement my TKD training. I was so stubborn, and rigid. My sihings kept hitting me with like tan sau, bong sau, lap sau, kwan sau, jit sau, gan da, fuk sau, wu sau, biu sau.

Alpha Dog

03-12-2002, 02:02 PM

IMHO, Yung Chun sounds way cooler when the practioners speak Mandarin. It is, after all Chinese. Cantonese is just a dialect.
;)

Zai lai!

Roy D. Anthony

03-12-2002, 02:02 PM

Thanks for understanding and suporting my point of view. To further my point, sometimes you have to disrupt that thought process as per Anthony Robbins style. That is why some Sifus seem harsh, but in reality they are your best friends. This was the method of Whippinghand as mentioned in other thread.

Sabu where are you from in Canada?

sanchezero

03-12-2002, 02:09 PM

First, some have recommended booting students who don't fit in. I'm not sure I agree. We have a retarded guy who certainly doesn't learn anything, but has a blast. We also have a couple of d0rks that think that chisao is akin to a WWF free-for-all. Then there are the guys who have no interest whatsoever in mastery of the system, but just wanna hang with their buds and do something kinda cool that may have fringe benefits. Of course, all of these guys cause some problems for those of us actually striving for some degree of mastery, but they also provide us with a lot of different opportunities to study our kungfu. I don't think I'd wanna lose that just b/c my sifu thought they were getting in the way of those few guys who were goin' the extra mile.

Understand, I'm not waving the flag of tolerance here. I'm the most close minded, intolerant a$$hole I know. I just want as many different people to play hands with as possible. If somebody really steps outta line, its not unheard of for sifu or one of us to hand out a smackdown but nobody gets the boot. (That doesn't mean that no one leaves, tho :) )

Second, what is up with you, Lotus Kick? Things are moving along swimmingly in their online-forum-d!cked-up way and you keep freakin out like your apartment building just got burned down by Santa's helpers. I have yet to see a personal attack directed toward you (I may have missed them :cool: ) yet you respond to the slightest disagreement with a sh!tstorm. Do you need a hug?

Just relax man and recognize the online media for the enjoyable but imperfect medium that it is.

Hmmm, it seems like that may have been a personal attack...

:D :p

Alpha Dog

03-12-2002, 02:15 PM

I also work with a handicapped guy and would never advocate his removal. I myself am not a "natural" to Yung Chun or the world's most gifted athlete. I only meant to say that those not open to learning what the Sifu has to offer shouldn't be encouraged to continue study.

An open mind can make the weakest strong, and vice versa.

sanchezero

03-12-2002, 02:35 PM

Why would the handicapped guy be any different than my WWF guy?

Presupposing that the handicapped guy ISN'T capable of hanging with the rest of the class, he would be an impediment to everyone else's training, right?

Alpha Dog

03-12-2002, 02:41 PM

well, for starters he wants to learn. it takes him longer to get it but I have found that if people show him some patience he gets it eventually. I'd say that is a big difference from the WWF guys you described.

reneritchie

03-12-2002, 02:42 PM

Hi Roy,

Agreed. A tough world for students these days. They have to be skeptical enough not to get taken ("Yes, I'll teach you super secret primordeal wing chun straight from Huang Ti...") and yet open enough to learn.

You have some teachers who trick students to see if their analytical about what they learn, others who obfuscate to force them to think, others who spoon-feed to cram in every detail, and the methods go on and on.

Luckily, WCK seems to advocate the center, and this path can help students and teachers both, I think!

Rgds,

RR

sanchezero

03-12-2002, 03:02 PM

The guy I mentioned isn't as capable of learning as most. The desire is there but the ability is impaired.

The WWF wannabees (they aren't really, but I'll stick to my irreverent tag) also want to learn. I think they are also learning impaired tho :D

After shoving them all over and popping them enough they ask questions and 'pay attention' and you get the feeling that maybe this'll be the day they see the light.

But you're wrong. :rolleyes:

Alpha Dog

03-12-2002, 04:23 PM

sounds like we might be in the same class... and maybe I am one of the WWF geeks!! :D

Spark

03-12-2002, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
and he will register for this website back in 1969!

Man, those were the days, chillin out listening to Zepplin. My computer took up my entire basement, the threads printed out on dot matrix, and the connection was so slow you could only answer one a week!!!!

All you newbies should pay heed the future is now!!!! Don't take it for granted!!!!!!

Matrix

03-12-2002, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by lotus kick
when i say man, i mean you and other bozzos in this form. This form is use to share ideas and knowledge in a world wide format. Some people here, like you, are so busy trying to prove that you are Superior, all you do is making stupid comments that make yourself look Juvenile. Sorry "man", but I don't know what your problem is, but maybe you should just relax a little.

Please identify the statements where I claimed superiority. I will be happy to retract them.

Regards,

Matrix

benny

03-12-2002, 09:57 PM

i agree with the disable guy being better. we have people like that, the anoying people are the ones who can do it but dont try. the "Im pacing myself " people. least people that dont have natural abilities work harder to get it. i have a guy in my school that is a really good athlete and i train double him just to keep up.

lotus kick

03-13-2002, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by Matrix
Sorry "man", but I don't know what your problem is, but maybe you should just relax a little.

Please identify the statements where I claimed superiority. I will be happy to retract them.

Regards,

Matrix

Wax on, Wax off. Wax on, Wax off. Wax on, Wax off. Wax on, Wax off. Wax on, Wax off. Wax on, Wax off. Wax on, Wax off.:o

Matrix

03-13-2002, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by sanchezero
First, some have recommended booting students who don't fit in. I'm not sure I agree. I was responding to the question about allowing a "closed-minded students to remain in class and potentially exert a negative influence on other students." If the person has a handicap or even general lack of athletic ability, then that's an entirely different matter. This is not about elitism. All people bring a lot more to their school than their Kung Fu skills. You can have a very skilled student who seriously damages the positive learning environment. My concern is for the club members as a group. One real bad apple who intentionally wants to disrupt things can have a very negative effect on the class. It should not be tolerated, IMHO.

On the other side of the coin, you can have someone who is a much weaker student who is really trying their best and also brings a lot of positive energy to class with them. This person contributes to the school in a different, but no less affirmative way.

Matrix

Roy D. Anthony

03-13-2002, 10:17 PM

As I see it, a Sifu is there to serve the students. When we encounter the wrotten apple, the Sifu's guidance hopefully will help direct him/her in a proper direction. Eventhough many students may disagree with keeping him there, often times time discloses that the Sifu was right in keeping the student on and turns out to be one of the best students in the class.
Everyone has the same potential!!! This is where equality lies!

Matrix

03-14-2002, 03:20 PM

Ultimately, I trust my sifu's judgement. I know that he has the best interest of the group at heart at all times. I also know that if a student gets out of control, he will deal with it.

Matrix

vingtsunstudent

03-14-2002, 06:29 PM

so roy
i ask you on the deleted whippy poll thread are you his teacher or are you him.
you said that he felt this way or that.(you odviously know him or are going to deny that now that thread has been wipped)
i am still waiting..............?
anyways, is that last post your excuse or reason for his/your behavior?
either way that makes you look very silly i'm affraid to say.
vts

Roy D. Anthony

03-14-2002, 07:03 PM

Let's keep to the subject at hand. *S*
Enjoy the mystery!!!..*S* I do.

Sabu

03-14-2002, 07:08 PM

You're sifu seem like good sifu? Who is your sifu?

Matrix

03-15-2002, 06:00 PM

Yes, my Sifu is a very good Sifu. Of that I have no doubt. However, please pardon me as I choose not to identify him. It's nothing personal mind you, but there are sharks in these waters. ;)

I do not wish to have him associated with the ramblings of one of his students. It seems that I have a weak grasp on the true meaning of Wing Chun, but I will strive to improve. My inadequacy should not be taken in any way as a reflection of my Sifu. Besides, I doubt you would know him.

Regards,
Matrix

Alpha Dog

03-15-2002, 07:38 PM

"who is your Sifu, what's your lineage??" engagements. Guaranteed to put your audience into a submissive/defensive position. They'll be putty in your hands after that. :rolleyes:

Matrix

03-16-2002, 12:57 PM

My lineage has been posted here before. Unfortunately, all you hear after that is "What would Sifu say to that?" or "Are you contradicting your Sigung in a public forum?'' as soon as you post something that others do not agree with. It's like you don't have a right to a personal opinion.

Like I said, my comments are my own. I do not have the ability, or the desire, to speak for someone else. For me, this is just a place to hang out, discuss common interests and compare notes.
I don't want to get into politics.

Peace,

Matrix

Alpha Dog

03-16-2002, 05:03 PM

I hear ya.

Actually, I was commenting on Sabu's post.

Cheers

sunkuen

03-16-2002, 05:36 PM

I don't make the rules.

Roy D. Anthony

03-16-2002, 07:42 PM

See, for the few not the many, this thread has turned into your sifu sounds like a good person, and all that.
Let's continue on the original idea of the Puzzle it was so good!!!

Alpha Dog

03-16-2002, 08:29 PM

What's with the "for the few, not the many"? WC was intended for armies, was it not? that in my mind implies "many." anyone should be able to learn this.

old jong

03-16-2002, 11:20 PM

...it's particularity of being effective for personnal defense in a relatively short time.

So, it's basics must be "simple" to understand so the poor guy can use it instead of phylosophising endlessly about some esoterical details or concepts only a few chosen one are blessed enough to know and understand.

Siu lim tao alongside a few simple drills is providing a small idea, big enough to be usefull to the many!

Later, the other forms and growing skills in chi sau and other exercices will solidify everything into a well understood and systematic combat system. You just have to walk a step at the time or,as yuanfen likes to say: Slowly climb the Wing Chun mountain! ;)

yuanfen

03-17-2002, 01:32 AM

No. The birth of the great southern styles including wing chun is in the southern rebellions against the Qing march southwards.Wing chun is for rebels, against folks with only regimented battlefield preparation. Then ultimately it matures to defending
the "self"..
Catering to the many and catering to the coin accounts for the corruptions.

Roy D. Anthony

03-17-2002, 03:04 AM

You are absolutely right, the only problem is that many people have a tough time understanding the meanings or intensions of Wing Chun's original focus.
Many scenarios come to mind, such as students own agendas, trying to complement their training with other styles and the list continues.

reneritchie

03-17-2002, 05:02 AM

AD - Joy's correct. WCK was developed by/for rebels, not for soldiers, who have different requirements. As to the few/many paradigm, this is mentioned by many sifu. I don't know if it's truly the case (I like to think the art is pretty robust) but then not everybody chooses to study WCK so maybe that part takes care of itself.

Rgds,

RR

Matrix

03-17-2002, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
Actually, I was commenting on Sabu's post.Understood. Thanks for clearing that up.

Matrix

Alpha Dog

03-17-2002, 05:36 AM

"Ok, what have I gotta do to get you into this great little Wing Chun today?" -- Sifu UsedCarSalesman

I agree, Yuanfen and Roy, that misunderstanding of or disrespect for "ground principles" of Wing Chun by those who teach it/learn it can do significant damage to the art over time.

Assuming we know today what those Wing Chun axioms are, though, don't you think that anyone willing to commit the time and energy can learn it? After all, it was designed for creatures that walk on their hind legs, that have two arms, shoulder-to-shoulder about three heads wide... Or am I being hopelessly naive?

IMHO, that "he's got that magic ability" is a Hollywood-era invention. True, some people are naturals, while others learn slower and CAN INDEED be held back by the baggage of false expectations they bring to the study. This holds true for everything.

The only difference between a genius and a regular guy is that the genius has good ideas more frequently.

Having said that, if everyone were geniuses no one would have invented beer.

yuanfen

03-17-2002, 08:00 AM

Assuming we know today what those Wing Chun axioms are, though, don't you think that anyone willing to commit the time and energy can learn it?
((Axioms are suggestive /denotative...they supplement but do not replace good teaching.Krishnamurthi and Lord Bruce got it wrong. One cannot be one's own teacher. Truism- a lawyer who represents himself hasa fool for a client.))

After all, it was designed for creatures that walk on their hind legs, that have two arms, shoulder-to-shoulder about three heads wide... Or am I being hopelessly naive?

((Sure. But as much as I would like to(never mind why), I cant play Brahm's Lullaby. Time and seasons and limits to things)))

IMHO, that "he's got that magic ability"
((Need a teacher, then 90%perspiration 10%inspiration))

The only difference between a genius and a regular guy is that the genius has good ideas more frequently.
((Vive la difference))

Having said that, if everyone were geniuses no one would have invented beer.
((Beer? In the US they havent invented it yet. Old Coor's advertisement: ""Its the water"".Make mine TsingTao, Tecate,
Bohemia, Negra Modelp, Singha, Kingfisher but youse dont have to give me a Bud-ask not for whom the Bud tolls-it tolls for you!!))

Alpha Dog

03-17-2002, 10:23 AM

A good teacher is needed.

So what is a good teacher? One who applies knowledge evenly or discriminantly? One who talks about his art in plain language or one who gets so caught up in his love affair with it that he allows all the heavenly glory to blot out the tangible finger?

Can any Sifu say for certain what the end result of training a student will be, the first time he lays eyes on a student?

I don't pretend to know the answer to this. I do know, however, that more people have been swindled throughout history by smoke, mirrors and snakeoil (****ed JOW! my hands are itchy) than by the presentation of basic realities.

For a student to be caught up in/controlled by in the romantic mysticism of WC is one thing, for a highly experienced person, that to me is tragic.

Or is it much more simply that some take comfort in the knowlege that mysticism will drive much of the competition away?

Roy D. Anthony

03-19-2002, 11:14 PM

If a message is taught in code and mysticism, then a message is not clear and therefore the job of the Sifu is finished. For all Sifus should know that one is not a Sifu without students. And students are not students without a Sifu.
It is a shame seeing many Sifus who make their own mysticism to cloud the minds of their students.

Using simple terminology is what got us to this confusion in the first place. However, using simple terminology actually allows the students to learn better, and thus a Sifu may do his/her job properly.
It is also our job to demystify the arts and allow students to think realistically. Otherwise students may end up getting hurt in situations that they counted on their mystic training to get them out of. Hope this helps!!!

Roy D. Anthony

03-20-2002, 11:36 PM

Any Ideas on how to make it for the many rather than the few?

sunkuen

03-20-2002, 11:49 PM

Put an AD in INSIDE KUNG FU!!!:D

Merryprankster

03-21-2002, 12:03 AM

I always feel out of place here...

I might suggest that wrestling, boxing, muay thai and other ring sports, do not seem to have the problem of getting caught up in "mysticism." They are also willing to teach anybody who will learn, not treating knowledge as if it were some sacred gift to be passed in secret behind closed doors.

Perhaps some sifus could take a page out of those books in an attempt to demistify? It seems there is little cloudiness in those arts, and much good instruction is to be had from many places...

yuanfen

03-21-2002, 07:11 AM

I might suggest that wrestling, boxing, muay thai and other ring sports, do not seem to have the problem of getting caught up in "mysticism."
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I am not sure that "mysticism" is the best word to to try and deal with comparisons involved. No one word may do either. Its true that the above are sports. First rate wing chun isnt-an oft repeated point but not always understood. Even in those sports
there are little moves that are unique to the user or the occasion.
Such as Archie Moore's advice to hit Joe Frazier on the top of the head at the soft spot which he did which caused Smoky Joe to collapse and bounce. Skills in those sports reach a plateaux
in their development and then maintenance until decline.
Wing chun is a longer journey and with the right guidance, you keep on improving much longer than in sports. You see and sense things that were not self evident before. Most people get impatient with the journey or dont have the right guidance
and fall of the wagon. Not mysticism. Right knowledge and right practice IMO of course. Yours may vary..

Merryprankster

03-21-2002, 07:43 AM

Skills in those sports reach a plateau then maintenance then decline because of the stress of ringfighting, not because of some inherent flaw in the system. It is quite possible for a person to execute the journey of wrestling or judo or what not and continue on into later years. My wrestling coach was 50 and still actively coaching and improving his judo. However, the nature of intensive competition, regardless of the sport, creates physical problems later in life. The same would be true of WC if it had a competition circuit as vital, talented and aggressive as the sports I outlined. I'm not knocking WC by saying that.

What I was suggesting was that the "demystification," for lack of a better term might be found in the teaching styles of those sports, not that the training methods or goals themselves be adopted. There should be little "mystery" in any art, if indeed, they are, as is often stated, efficient biomechanical principles properly applied and practiced. So I agree that it is hard work over time--always--but there is a willingness in boxing/wrestling/judo/MT, etc, to say "Ah, look--see, you aren't executing this principle correctly and that's why this doesn't work for you, try this..." so you go out and experiment with that and find something that works for you with that principle in mind. Maybe you don't step as deeply, or your hand placement is slightly different, but the principle of the movement remains the same.

However, it has been my observation that the answer most frequently received when WC people ask for help on this forum is a slightly haughty "the answer is in the forms." Well, that may be true.... the answer to physics is in the principles of calculus.... but you have to know algebra first in order to execute the techniques necessary to apply the principles of calculus. If you don't, it's a hopeless mess...

yuanfen

03-21-2002, 09:00 AM

However, it has been my observation that the answer most frequently received when WC people ask for help on this forum is a slightly haughty "the answer is in the forms." Well, that may be true.... the answer to physics is in the principles of calculus.... but you have to know algebra first in order to execute the techniques necessary to apply the principles of calculus. If you don't, it's a hopeless mess...
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The answer to me is in how the forms are taught. The forms are not expressed in mathematical terms and not immediately transmissible. many first rate Asian things---music, arts, martial arts involve cumulative skills acquired through good tutelage-
hence inherently difficult to mass produce. The west often ends up attempting to mass produce and now Asians are imitating that to0...large kung fu chain schools etc. I love music but am no musician. A layman's analogy...witha few lessons-- sometimes none... one can play tolerable guitar, classical guitar is a different thing... sitar? the west is yet to produce a single SUPERB sitarist...
why>? Not race or etalent issue. Staying the course under proper guidance for cumulative skill building and enlightment...
requires a different kind of commitment than mpst people give to TCMA.

Merryprankster

03-21-2002, 12:15 PM

Ah, see, now we're getting into a "culture" slant that I find abhorent, for the most part. To truly appreciate anything it must be studied, whether Asian or not. I don't expect that forms are mathematical formulas. I cook--a LOT, and without meaning to come across as a food snob or egotistical jerk, I'm quite good at it. It takes time invested in the proper techniques and the ingredients to understand balance and flavor, whether it's European mediterranean, Arabic, Central Asian, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Cajun, Creole, Jamaican, etc. Obviously none of that is precise mathematics (how much allspice in the jerk rub? Depends on the allspice....)

Of course I hate fusion cooking, that b@stard child, for the most part, so perhaps there is something to be said for "classical," ;) ...

Let's not discuss what Americans have done with Cantonese... and the even worse things they've done to Szechuan and Hunan....ShangHai seems largely unadulterated though... hmmm... maybe all the pungency turns people off :)

I guess my point though, is more that all of the "sports," seem to have more exposition, along with the trial and error process of personal experience and the hefty dose of "forms training," (shadow boxing, shadow wrestling, drills, etc). Look at Cael Sanderson--undefeated in wrestling in college, and YEARS in the making--hardly a quick way to success!

I think there is something to be said for the expository style. Finding the right balance is necessary of course... I've had instructors that just drone on and on and on... ok, let me go PRACTICE this now, for heaven's sake!! But there seems to be, in ring-type martial arts, more exposition than what seems to go on here. The difference in approach seems to be endemic (pardon me if I've used that wrong...I'm in a rush), in CMA, less so with the Japanese, Thai, Koreans, Vietnamese, etc.

I'm not arguing that it's right or wrong. I'm saying that as long as the expository style is not used, you can't make it for the many--and the idea that this reduces the quality of the product, is kinda silly. Good boxing instruction, Judo instruction, MT instruction, San Shou instruction, etc, abounds.

Whether you make them life-long pursuits and truly take them to heart is up to the individual.

S.Teebas

03-21-2002, 02:28 PM

I think with regards to WC. Peoples expecations of what they think it is...compared to what it really is, often conflicts.
In alot of ways you need to really trust your sifu...almost like a child trusts a parent. (hard to put into words)

Roy D. Anthony

03-25-2002, 03:32 PM

You're absolutely right. However, what happens when you have a Sifu you cannot trust. Case in point, Temple Kungfu, On another forum. Sifus who say something and are another? What would you do about something like that?

S.Teebas

03-25-2002, 04:07 PM

what happens when you have a Sifu you cannot trust. Case in point, Temple Kungfu, On another forum. Sifus who say something and are another? What would you do about something like that?

If you can't trust them...just leave. If you want your skill level to be as high as possible this type of realtionship is essiential. If i couldn't find it in a WC school id rather learn another style where it does exist.

Peoples knowledge, skill, and ability to put the theory into action speak alot louder than: " I learnt off the secret grandmaster and have secret techniques, but cant teqach it to you till you've been under me for 10 years"...or whatever BS they spin. You can tell if somone is the real thing. ...How? I find these type of people have so much knowledge they dont have the insecurity of needing to hold back information; because there is so much to learn...why hold someone back?

Some very good people i have met in MA's freely teach all they know because in relation to the students, they are light years ahead of them in skill.
Where'as others i have seen who may be sightly better often recognise they may not be so far ahead, and therefor dont tell the student what is missing otherwise they'd get their butt kicked IF they told all they knew as soon as the student was ready to learn it.

So to answer your threads question, i think if you want to make Wc for the many and not the few (hmm... dont know if its really ever going to be possible however) Id say it's in YOUR hands.
Because first you need to have a high skill level, then freely teach all you know to all willing to learn. The thing is, most people arent ready for putting in the time...the consistant effort into learning WC. WC is designed to be a simple system, but in all honestly you really need to be into it if you want to advance. Alot dont have the obsesison people like us do :D