SEIZING SKILLS - Bone, Muscle, Joint, Nerve, Air.

[fiercest tiger]

Hi guys and gals, i know that alot of you have this in your styles, but do you get taught this indepth. like chi and blood, how to tear muscle, divide bones and seperate joints. applying pressure, twisting, jerking, rubbing etc.

i would like to hear from people like moq, mantis 108, meltdawn, ten tigers, fire hawk, ninestep, kevin?, bui ji, lungyuil, well everyone that does seizing in southern arts.

styles like yau kung mun, pak mei, bak fu pai, lung ying, chow gar mantis, hung gar, choy lee fut, wing chun for example. :)

THANKS EVERYONE NO TROLLING PROHIBITED!! :mad:

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[fiercest tiger]

that should read "trolling prohibited".... hahaha

i should read the d@mn things before i post.

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[kull]

As you know bai mei has most of those things with a concentration on pressure strike(dian xue/dim mak) and muscle tearing in my opinion; and a little bit less concentration bone divide method of qin na.

I say this b/c bak mei training priority is developemet of qi/power first, as oppose to learn technique then develope qi. I know most ppl. will say both are done at same time, but difference is very small and that is what make difference between other style like wing chun.

Also in bak mei many strikes are aimed at specific acupoints of body. Many of these points are protected by muscle, bone, cartilage...etc. also some CMA practitioner develop iron shirt/golden bell method too. Therefore in order to penetrate this barrier one must have a high developement of qi/power. High level bak mei become very scientific. The qi/power required for muscle tearing method is obvious and don't really need to explain.

Bone divide method does not require this power development; because bone attachments can only articulate at specific angles. Once bone attachment is moved in angle that is not allowable by it's anataomical structure it will break, divide, seperate at joint/ligament. This can be done once the correct technique is taught and doesn't require a lot of energy, as you would if you would do dian xue/muscle tearing method.

[This message was edited by kull on 02-20-01 at 12:40 AM.]

[fiercest tiger]

thanks for posting!

i understand what you mean about the punching and developing power, but do you also concerntrate on the seizing skills or do you prefer to just strike. i try and do all areas kicking, punching ,trapping, seizing.

ykm has lots of chin na and dim mak seizing. lots of development on claw and finger training for all seizing skills. does pak mei have much seizing i know they have kol la ,kum na hand techniques plus many others, but the higher the level the deaper the application when relating to dim ma dim yuet.

whats your training method on claw and seizing skill? :)

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Black Jack]

I was not on the "A" list but I am going to post anyway :p

Since I am now getting back into conditioning my grip for tearing and seizing work as well as some bone conditioning I thought I might post some of what I have done in the area of training my grip for those related tasks.

To develop powerfull seizing skills you need a powerfull grip with good wrist and forearm strength which will help you to accomplish your goals.

Depending on what you are working on there are many different methods. In the area of grip strength training, this is where I think the traditional arts shine in there seizing and conditioning tactics.

A few of the things I am now doing to work on my pinching and tearing skills are as follows:

1. Fill a large jar with rocks or sand and hold it's lid by using only your fingertips. I like to do this method while moving around the house so I can accomplish other things at the same tmie but it gets heavy pretty fast.

2. Get a bag of rice or sand of woodchips and use it to practice your tearing and pinching skills on. The rough canvas of the bag should represent the "skin" and the filling's should represent the "muscle" underneath.

Great for training to pinch those soft nerve plexus areas on a attackers body.

3. Newspaper Drill: Get a newspaper and take a page out and start to slowly crunch it up into a as small as a ball as you can by using only one hand at a time. Your hands will realy cramp up after a while on this one and they will be full of ink prints to.

4. Tension Hand Grip: This is the classic cheap grip you can get at any store but it realy works will and its been around for ever and if you can adjust the setting you can use different finger grips on it.

5. Dumbell Twists: This is not a curl or extension but when you take the dumbell and hold it as if you just finished a curl at its top peak and start to twist "only" your wrist from side to side in a smooth fashion. Great for getting the small wrist muscless that the extension and curl can not reach and it is great for seizing conditioning.

6. Dumbell Curls & Extensions: Standard dumbell or barbell movements that can realy get into the "belly" of the forearm.

Without conditioning I think that a persons seizing skills will not be at the top of there game.

By the way I am not a fan of finger pushups as I don't think they can get the grip muscle as well as other non-compound excersices nor as fast.

Regards

[Wah Ren Jie]

Good post Black Jack. I'm not a fan of fingertip pushups either. Especially since I go about 240. I leave that stuff for the small guys, I feel you'll ruin your tendons doing that stuff. Peace.

"I'll kick you square in the nuts!!!" -Eric Cartman

[fiercest tiger]

i didnt know jkd had any muscle seizing skills, the use or tiger or eagle claw that is.

double sumbrado with tiger claw or the hubbud with a eagle claw hhahahahaha.

thanks :D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Black Jack]

Remeber JKD is realy a concept so it is hard to peg down on what JKD Concept school does when compared to another Concept school.

From what I have seen is that it does not use a whole lot of Chin Na or Seizing skills and the joint locks and manipulations that are used have been pretty streamlined for application.

Though a strong grip is a great asset for anyone to have who is into the martial sciences as grappling, binding and trapping need such elements.

I was into the CMA's way before I was ever into the eclectic based approach and a good deal of my old training when I was taught by my Sifu for over 4 years was in finger conditioning related to tearing, raking, holding and ripping attacks so my animal hand strikes would be more effective.

I am now after a long time getting back into conditioning my grip for tearing and pinching tactics and I will be using my old stuff and some Burma methods to do so.

I have always worked on my forearms but now need to bring my old hand muscles back for these certain skills as I will be training them to a deeper degree and as I have small hands it is a must.

Regards

[fiercest tiger]

i heard that the burmese arts where better than thai arts. i have heard of bando, but never seen it before to comment. i have heard during the wars that they are the deadliest fighters in jungle warfare. what do you know about them?

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[mantis108]

Hi Fiercest Tiger,

Thanks for the invite. I agree with Black Jack that conditioning and techniques go hand in hand.

For conditioning:

modified hindu push ups

two fingered push ups (2 hands) with varying speed - Slow/tempo/pulse.

triceps push ups

one handed 5 fingers push ups (working on 3 fingered)

flipping palm push ups

Back hand to fist push ups.

knuckle push ups (rebuilding 'cause of previous injury) painfully slow progress on this one. :(

money jag grip (lungry money so it may be havier one day and lighter on another) I use dumpbell instead sometimes.

roped weight rolling bar (you know the classic one)

dumpbell wrist curls.

Techniques:

I have seen a lot of people not using the right grips or little of no grip for the Chin Na technique. Of course, you can compensate with more muscular force. That would be Lik not Ging. The grips are to deliver Ging to penetrate deep. That's one thing to look out for.

At advanced level, almost any technique in the forms can be Chin Na. Take Bai Jong/Meng Fu Hon Moon (En guard position) for example, left hand claw can grap/seize the wrist of opponent and apply Ging to seal the pulse or any number of things. The right lead hand can be a upper cut kind of motion to break opponent's elbow or just grap the pressure point(s) there to seize. Even more to Boon/Sock/Chong to dislocate opponent's shoulder. All this can not be achieve without sufficient conditioning.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Black Jack]

Mantis108 the rollerbar is an excellent forearm workout device...**** I forgot all about that think...I never seem to see one around at Bally's.


Fierce I do not feel comfortable talking about Bando in any historical content as I feel I would do it an injustice due to my lack of knowledge at this time and respect for those that I know but let me state that I would never want to be stuck in the Jungle with that group after me! :D

Regards

[fiercest tiger]

jee lik is the key to seizing and many people i beleive dont do enough training on.

:D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[FIRE HAWK]

Hi fircest tiger i know a good bit about Bando i will tell you what i know about it real soon.

[tnwingtsun]

Yup,the Bai Mei I studied had pleanty of that stuff,as for the Bando people there used to be alot of groups around this area.Our first Bai Mei group had Bando black belts that switched to White Eyebrow and graduated the Bai Mei course.In the 80s we had some bloody sparring sessions with their schools in Clevand TN.Mostly their blood,lol,not dissing them because they are some tough cookies,they are the only ones that would spar with us at that time(no protective eq.)We came out on top but I respect them for their heart and fighting spirit,what struck me as funny is that after our matches with them they incorperated low kicks into their system,they were very efective against them,they evolved,cheers to them,IMHO Bai Mei is a better system,they were too stiff like Karate,tough guys none the less

[kull]

FT-

I like both bone dividing method and dian xue method.

Bone divide method is a little more easier to learn b/c of reason i say b4. It also has advantage of control person without great injury. That why most police force use bone divide method type techniques.

Dian xue technique, well...obvious cannot do without substantial injury to opponent.

Bak mei has many szeing, throwing technique. But when i learn bai mei seize not to just control opponent, like judo? but to cause great body injury as to cause death. Ex. 9 step push; touch hand technique, lift jing tech. Sup ji/3 gate ;cutting hand. Hence, why some CMA master say bai mei hands are very poisonous. Not that other style are not effective, but bak mei every move want to take opponents life.

Black jack give good description of some grip training methods.