My days rather painfull lesson

[jon]

Im gonna tell the story of how i today realised just why exactly you do NOT mess with those relaxed looking internal practioners.

We have a guy who occasionaly comes to class who has been doing internals for over 12 years. He is in his early thirtys and is always well dressed and kept. He seems to be a buisness man of some sort and always looks very smart - not like a typical martial artist.
He is also a very large guy, he is well over six foot and very well built with powerfull limbs.
His form is not bad but to me looked nothing special at all, all of his movements where VERY relaxed even when fast and to me he often looked like he was flailing his arms rather than actualy focusing on what he was doing and the exact right technique.
We struck up conversation as we have before and becouse my sifu had gone home for the day we decided to test skills a little.
We began by doing light sparring with little or no striking contact and pretty slow movements with a lot of sticking and footwork. We then moved into demonstating different practical applications.
He began to show me different methods of generating force and than began to demonstate something he called a 'thunder' palm. This to me looked again relaxed but VERY fast and almost kinda spastic in its apperence. It looked like he was spasming and letting it fly out of his arm.
I was kinda sceptical that this was as powerfull as he kept saying but continued on anyway.
Then it started...
He asked me if i wanted to see first hand his power (his eyes at this point told me something was up) and i stupidly complied.
He began by putting his hands on my sholders and simply giving me a light shove. Before every push he would tell me to take my best stance and grip the ground as strongly as i could. He is a LOT bigger than me and i expected him to be able to shove me easily. What i was not expecting was what repeatbly happened.
He appereared to give me only light pushes each time generating his power with the same body mechanic. Each time he would litteraly lift me off my feet and have me sprawling accross the room trying to regain my balance.
He then offered me to push him so i could test my mechanics, i did the same as him and moved him back about 2 feet:(
Neither of us was using anything like full speed or power but it was fast becomming painfully obvious that this guy knew something i simply wasnt comprehending.

Then the real pain happened...
During a practical demonstation and without warning he actualy hit me with one of his 'thunder' palms. The strike was so fast i honestly didnt see it. I felt it go though the right of my stomach(point of contact) and shoot like a bullet strait out the other side around the left handside of my back. It was a penerating deep pain and ive never felt anything like it before. He was also obvious from his body movement he had not expressed anything like his full power. I honestly felt it pass though my organs and i was NOT pleasent. I can litteraly still feel it now as im writing this and its actualy got me pretty freaked out.
I saw the expression on his face change just before he hit me and he seemed to really enjoy actualy transferring his force in all the things he showed me.
The reason im writing this is i now have very sore internal organs and i feel sick.
If anyone else meets a well dressed blonde guy who is performing odd looking movements with no apperent force...
Dont become his test dummy:(

[Leonidas]

Cool story Jon, it kinda sux for you though, but like you said it was a lesson although painful. Maybe you should have your Sifu or a doctor check the place where he punched, just to be safe. I heard of one Xingyi student who was punched in the stomach even with pillows strapped on and he still died. I guess i shouldn't underestimated a senior student even if you have experience in another art or he looks like a no nothing :eek:. I'll keep that in mind so i won't have to go what you did. Heal well Jon. :( :D

[dezhen2001]

D@mn - unlucky mate!
Maybe you should get it checked out. Lucky he didn't do the "Shaolin King Kong Palm" (ala "Iron Monkey") or you would have a big nasty red mark on your body with all the poisoned blodd etc....:eek: :D

Hope you feel better today :)

david

[Xebsball]

Man he should have used more control. He could seriously hurt you with the internal stuff. Thats why a person that have the power to hurt should be able to heal as well.

If you know qigong maybe you should do it to help you heal, if the pain goes on you should talk to your sifu.

[Tainan Mantis]

Jon,
It sounds to my like he was unfair. It sounds like a cheap shot.
Do you think he took a cheap shot or did I misunderstand you?

Something similar happened to me. I would most surely have a dislocated shoulder if it wasn't for my good luck.
Since then I have a very low opinion of people who pretend like they are just playing and then hurt you.

[JWTAYLOR]

I say you find the guy and show him the "chi" that you've built up in a 2X4.

JWT

[Cody]

that it sounds like "a cheap shot." Cause, from your description, he had stopped being careful. He seemed to have lost emotional control; he proved he had physical control earlier in the encounter. Past a certain point, he gets wild. It happens.

Um, could have been that as things escalated, you had become a challenge, even if the stated purpose was different. The fact that you were able to push him 2 feet could have brought this about. See, you weren't supposed to be able to move him at all, and the fact that you uprooted him shows very good work on your part. I tell ya, it wouldn't take much more for you to have combined that small push (that's all it takes) with something that would have caused your classmate to lose his balance, and he knew that.

It is not dependable really to use surface appearances (degree of movement, for instance) as a measure of whether or not a person is using full power. I would say he wasn't using full power cause you're still alive. However, what's going on with this guy, including how much he is putting out is something your Sifu should spot when this is brought to his attention. And, you have learned, as I did (the hard way), that when the eyes show something, even for an instant, take it seriously.

Also, that you should seek treatment. Please talk to your Sifu. This fella needs some "education."

Hope you're okay,
Cody

[bamboo_ leaf]

Hi Jon,

Well I would have to say this was a good but painful lesson, had a few in my own time.
The bouncing that you describe means that your body is still very tight inside and you need to relax more. this is a matter of degree there are always others who are softer.

If some one can move you this way it’s not a good idea to play around with them unless you know them. Even in the park where I push sometimes we have what I call TC gunslingers, they say they want to practice but actually they really want to win.

With these people you really have to be careful, they can hurt you or hurt themselfs if your able to hear and lead their intention.

Softness really works against people such as these


Cody, said some good things, hope you feel better soon.

[diego]

quote"D@mn - unlucky mate!
Maybe you should get it checked out. Lucky he didn't do the "Shaolin King Kong Palm" (ala "Iron Monkey") or you would have a big nasty red mark on your body with all the poisoned blodd etc....":cool:

[Merryprankster]

Yup--sounds like a cheap, full power body shot to me. It hurts. Lots. Hook to the liver feels a lot like that too. just queasy and wobbly and icky.

[KC Elbows]

"His form is not bad but to me looked nothing special at all, all of his movements where VERY relaxed even when fast and to me he often looked like he was flailing his arms rather than actualy focusing on what he was doing and the exact right technique."

You said this
and I wonder
did you say it to him?
Or show your disapproval
in a non-verbal whim?
Its possible that
though he might've been wrong
perceived disrespect
might've egged him along.

[diego]

speak without moving my lips
got 50 pair of sneaks
king divine accappella nobeat
welldressed relaxed whitedude
whippn palm
jonny boy assout kisst the streat
whiteboy cross the forehead
3rdeyes dressing meat?.:) :rolleyes: :confused:

[shaolinboxer]

Yep, you got hit by a cheap shot in the guts.

The best internal practitioners can show you their power, and not hurt you.

[Sharky]

he sounds like a fuqin tit.

[rubthebuddha]

i think sharky summed up in better words what the rest of us are thinking. unless he says, "are you comfy with me unleashing the palm of hell upon you," he had no business doing it, and your sifu needs to reel this enthusiastic dumb**** in before he gets himself in trouble.

or maybe he already has. :mad:

[Tae Li]

cool story Dragon......

but what i really want to know...is where i can find this guy and pay him to teach me how to generate such tremedous energy from my body into someone elses...... what a weapon!!

who needs cell phone and knives when your talking lonely strolls in the park and youy have this great internal gift???

you should learn it off him Jon and then teach it to me...:)

btw... hope your feeling better;)

Tae Li;) aka Lian Jie lover

[Tae Li]

correction: "taking" not talking lonelt strolls in the park

[Merryprankster]

Tae Li,

it's called "taking a gut shot when you aren't anywhere close to prepared for it."

No art has a monopoly on this effect. I'm sure I'll have everybody on my arse about this, but the fact is, when you take a hard shot to the gut and aren't ready for it, you'll feel like that, thunder palm or no.

Let a boxer with a mean hook or uppercut hit you when all your muscles are totally relaxed and you'll see what happenned. This is one reason why boxers exhale on the punch--it tightens the abs automatically, and if he slips and throws a body shot, you won't get dropped.

[Tae Li]

Interesting theory Merryprankster...il take it into consideration... but i do believe that some great fighters have professionalised the art of internal power/force and can have the same effect on someone ready or not....

Tae Li;)

[Merryprankster]

What you call internal, I call proper body mechanics :) To each their own! :D

[KC Elbows]

I misread your post, and thought the assault
came during sparring, but I see otherwise.
To injure in demonstration is clearly his fault
and for him the choice was clearly unwise.

Is your teacher his teacher?
His teacher make aware
He could end up in trouble
If he doesn't show more care
(talking about the aggressor
which I didn't make clear
now I'm kinda sick of rhyming
so I'm getting out of here).

[Ka]

Hey Jon

This guy his name wouldn't be Anders by any chance?
Although I can't see Anders behaveing in this way.

[jon]

Hi peoples
Firstly to everyone who said get well soon thank you, im feeling a lot better today though i can still feel it a little in my back. I did a lot of Chi Gung this morning and managed to work my organs enough to at least get the flow back though them.

The guy was at class today again and again we got talking though this time we didnt actualy cross freely we just exchanged.
It turns out the reason he is smartly dressed and well spoken is that he is a doctor by trade. I wont leave his name but its not the one you mention Ka. He is trained in Bagua first and foremost and was orginaly trained in America before going over to China and training there. He has now found his way to my sifu, he knows numerous Bagua including Dragon style and eight animal but these days he only practices the same form i do - Chiang Jung-Chiao
He is also trained extensively in combat and has had chance to test his art on MANY occasions. Not least of which being a challenge taker in his last school in China.

When he struct me he was demonstrating practical applications and asked me to block his strike. He went high with a right jab which i offset by simply raising my right arm on the outside of his forearm. As my attension was going up he simply whipped out his left palm and struck me just on the left on my stomach at an angle going right though out the the right hand side of my back. It was kind of cheap but at the same time ive never minded being hit a little when having application demonstated, i just think he got over zelous.
There is also another guy who was there who ive spoken about before, he is a WC guy and cant believe anything works, i think it was actualy HIM that annoyed my training partner but becouse i was the only one with the guts to stand up and play i was the one who copped the 'lesson'.

There is a VERY nice upshot to all of this...
As i stated he was there again today and this time was really nice to me, like yesterday he told me many interesting things and helped me with my own power generation.
I went from knocking him just backwards to being able to send him accross the room about 5-6 feet. At one point i even actualy lifted this well over six foot tall beast of a man off the floor. Im about 5,10 and of a slight build.
He was pleased with my progress and ended up asking my sifu to hurry up and teach me more so that we could spar more effectively.
He seems to view me as a potensical training partner and he has told me he hasnt found one since he left China. Not many are willing to cross hands with him is a sad truth. Whilst i cant hope to match him i CAN just keep half way up with him. Hence i think i may have a lot to learn from the guy who just gave me the most painfull strike ive ever encountered (ive been hit by a LOT).

To Merry
There was very definately a big issue of body mechanics to his striking and he explains it that way as well as taught me that way.
Still there was something odd about that strike i swear it, ive been hit pleanty of times in the stomach when im not ready.
This didnt knock the wind out of me or even double me over. It simply felt like a bolt shooting strait though the middle of me.
I still dont know how to explain what he did but the closest i can come is to say it was a VERY penertating strike and was NOT a thump.

At first i was angry at him but now i cant help feeling kinda privildged. He may have hit me but he is also teaching me to hit the same way and he seems to see enough in my technique to want me as a training partner. Dispite being able to proberly kill me with a flick of his wrist.
That and he was generaly pleased when i managed to lift him off the ground so im guessing his strike was just to give me an idea of exactly what kind of power he was discribing produsing.

[Merryprankster]

Trust me, I know EXACTLY what you are talking about. It's not just an impact it's like....

Ok. lemme give you an example. I was once hit in the stomach by a 35 lbs weight (indoor weight throw, track and field). It felt a lot like what you described... it seemed as though that ****ed thing had lodged in my gut and was moving around in there :)

And that's what a good hook or uppercut does--same/same feel to it when it comes to the body.

The point is that good is good--doesn't matter where it came from.

[jon]

Hi Merry
Im definatlely not trying to say i think this kind of power generation would be limited to chinese martial arts.
I think personaly and from my experience trying to do it, its mainly to do with a relaxed body and VERY fast whipping of the hips and spine.
Its hard to stop the energy from disipating at your sholders and using your arms externaly for the last part of the movement but you know when you get it.
Its also much easyer suprisingly to do this when you already have contact. Actualy striking is much more difficault as again its harder to make this 'whip' travel right though your body and out of your hands.
To be dead honest ive seen many professional boxers use similar mechanics when performing basic jabbing and rolling. There arms are totaly relaxed and all the power is generated by the movement of there body. There arms only move becouse there body has driven them in that particular direction.

So dont worry i dont think its some kind of mystical evil palm of death or something. I just think i ran into someone who is very capable of issuing full relaxed body power and creating force that is actualy far supperiour to pure muscle driven force.

[Merryprankster]

no worries!

[Ryu]

internal or not, why does someone obviously more skilled than you get excited with hurting you?

Wow, so he can hurt someone who is not as skilled as he is and smaller too. Tough man. :rolleyes:

How's your stomach feeling?

[Cody]

watch this one. I don't feel comfortable with the situation described.
Jon, you sound like a very nice person.

Cody

Oh, where in your back? You mentioned still feeling something in your back. Is it in the area of the Mingmen? (between sixth and seventh thoracic vertebrae, in back of heart). blockage in that area can stress the heart. A "blow" aimed there can mess up energy circulation really good.

[jon]

Hi Cody
Thanks for your comments, as always you have good insight :)

I will be dead honest (i wanted to avoid bringing this up) before he actualy hit me he had been speaking about how it felt to actualy issue force. He was discribing the difference between hitting nothing, hitting padded and hitting solid. Then of course he stated there is nothing like hitting a human. He went into rather great detail on exactly what the strikes can do to the internal organs and why (he's a doctor), then he told me about how he had personaly been struck like this with a fair amount of force in the face and had bruising and concussion for several days.
He was telling me all of this but at the same time telling me how bad it was to actualy be like that as a person and how it can change your mindset and make you very violent.
What of course makes this whole speech even wierder is the fact that in the end i was on the recieving end of a little of his focussed force. Ive seen him do the movement with full power hitting nothing and know darn well if he had done that he would have dropped he like a fly but im still a little sceptical of just how carefull and resolved he is with his use of 'that' particular power.
I honestly dont think he actualy 'meant' to do it with quite the effect it had but the fact that it came out anyway kind of bothers me.

To answer the questions about where it hit i need to properly discribe the strike.
If im standing strait up it hit about 1-2 inches above my belt and to the side of my abdominal muscles. The force traveled at a 45% angle strait though my body and out of the right hand side of my back, it did not pass my over my spine. I know it was not exactly the effect he had discribed earlyer or else i would not be here writting this but he did give my insides a good 'shake'.

It has not done any permanent or real damage i dont think and im going to hope that being a doctor he would know if he had hit me harder than i could take.
He is a nice bloke though and i dont want everyone thinking he is some kind of nutcase...
Just maybe dont question his abilitys;)

As a side note.
I did feel a little that i got my own back today, not only did i start to be able to perform the same power but i was sending him right accross our floor and at one point i knocked the breath right out of him becouse i heard him gasp as i pushed. I was not using full force but i did want to give him a bit of respect for me. It seemed to work and i may well learn a bit from him. If i can avoid being hit by that darn palm again that is:D