My days rather painfull lesson

[jon]

Im gonna tell the story of how i today realised just why exactly you do NOT mess with those relaxed looking internal practioners.

We have a guy who occasionaly comes to class who has been doing internals for over 12 years. He is in his early thirtys and is always well dressed and kept. He seems to be a buisness man of some sort and always looks very smart - not like a typical martial artist.
He is also a very large guy, he is well over six foot and very well built with powerfull limbs.
His form is not bad but to me looked nothing special at all, all of his movements where VERY relaxed even when fast and to me he often looked like he was flailing his arms rather than actualy focusing on what he was doing and the exact right technique.
We struck up conversation as we have before and becouse my sifu had gone home for the day we decided to test skills a little.
We began by doing light sparring with little or no striking contact and pretty slow movements with a lot of sticking and footwork. We then moved into demonstating different practical applications.
He began to show me different methods of generating force and than began to demonstate something he called a 'thunder' palm. This to me looked again relaxed but VERY fast and almost kinda spastic in its apperence. It looked like he was spasming and letting it fly out of his arm.
I was kinda sceptical that this was as powerfull as he kept saying but continued on anyway.
Then it started...
He asked me if i wanted to see first hand his power (his eyes at this point told me something was up) and i stupidly complied.
He began by putting his hands on my sholders and simply giving me a light shove. Before every push he would tell me to take my best stance and grip the ground as strongly as i could. He is a LOT bigger than me and i expected him to be able to shove me easily. What i was not expecting was what repeatbly happened.
He appereared to give me only light pushes each time generating his power with the same body mechanic. Each time he would litteraly lift me off my feet and have me sprawling accross the room trying to regain my balance.
He then offered me to push him so i could test my mechanics, i did the same as him and moved him back about 2 feet
Neither of us was using anything like full speed or power but it was fast becomming painfully obvious that this guy knew something i simply wasnt comprehending.

Then the real pain happened...
During a practical demonstation and without warning he actualy hit me with one of his 'thunder' palms. The strike was so fast i honestly didnt see it. I felt it go though the right of my stomach(point of contact) and shoot like a bullet strait out the other side around the left handside of my back. It was a penerating deep pain and ive never felt anything like it before. He was also obvious from his body movement he had not expressed anything like his full power. I honestly felt it pass though my organs and i was NOT pleasent. I can litteraly still feel it now as im writing this and its actualy got me pretty freaked out.
I saw the expression on his face change just before he hit me and he seemed to really enjoy actualy transferring his force in all the things he showed me.
The reason im writing this is i now have very sore internal organs and i feel sick.
If anyone else meets a well dressed blonde guy who is performing odd looking movements with no apperent force...
Dont become his test dummy

[boy_analog]

The reason im writing this is i now have very sore internal organs and i feel sick.

Jon:

Great post.

If you still feel sick tomorrow, please see a good TCM practitioner ASAP. I don't say this from personal experience, just regurgitating what my teacher says. Nonetheless, if this guy has just passed a lightning bolt through you, it stands to reason to suppose that your internals are right out of whack right now.

Oh, and when you get a chance, perhaps you can tell us a little more about Blondie's style/lineage?

[Drone]

1) Has anyone else Every heard of "Thunder Palm"?

2) And would it be correct to say that Jon got a taste of a Fa jing strike?

I have had a number of people "tell me what fa jing is" but I am not really sure that I understand it all that well... perhaps some one could clear it up.

I guess since Jon was the only one there he could best answer the second question.
thanks
-Drone

[Nexus]

A fa-jing strike must be felt to be understood.

[Sum Guye]

Fa-Jing simply means "to issue power"

Jing is roughly 'correct body usage' (a well trained swimmer your weight and size can out swim you using much less energy than you because they've trained their body to have the right 'jing' for swimming).

Fa is roughly 'to issue forth'.

My teacher once explained it as tipping over a refridgerator;
once you tip it to the point where it is teetering- it's going to fall ... if you give it some extra 'umph' it will slam down harder than if you just let it fall with it's own weight. Another analogy he uses is a great pitcher letting go of a fast ball. He uses his body correctly for all types of pitches... but on the fast ball pitch- he uses the same structure but releases it with all the power he can... that is fa-jing.

Understanding it is one thing... being able to do it on an unwilling opponent is another.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Nexus, I second you...that is why it is said that a master "passes down jing" rather than just shows it.

[jon]

Little more information
Hi peoples
Firstly to everyone who said get well soon thank you, im feeling a lot better today though i can still feel it a little in my back. I did a lot of Chi Gung this morning and managed to work my organs enough to at least get the flow back though them.

The guy was at class today again and again we got talking though this time we didnt actualy cross freely we just exchanged.
It turns out the reason he is smartly dressed and well spoken is that he is a doctor by trade. I wont leave his name but its not the one you mention Ka. He is trained in Bagua first and foremost and was orginaly trained in America before going over to China and training there. He has now found his way to my sifu, he knows numerous Bagua including Dragon style and eight animal but these days he only practices the same form i do - Chiang Jung-Chiao
He is also trained extensively in combat and has had chance to test his art on MANY occasions. Not least of which being a challenge taker in his last school in China.

When he struct me he was demonstrating practical applications and asked me to block his strike. He went high with a right jab which i offset by simply raising my right arm on the outside of his forearm. As my attension was going up he simply whipped out his left palm and struck me just on the left on my stomach at an angle going right though out the the right hand side of my back. It was kind of cheap but at the same time ive never minded being hit a little when having application demonstated, i just think he got over zelous.
There is also another guy who was there who ive spoken about before, he is a WC guy and cant believe anything works, i think it was actualy HIM that annoyed my training partner but becouse i was the only one with the guts to stand up and play i was the one who copped the 'lesson'.

There is a VERY nice upshot to all of this...
As i stated he was there again today and this time was really nice to me, like yesterday he told me many interesting things and helped me with my own power generation.
I went from knocking him just backwards to being able to send him accross the room about 5-6 feet. At one point i even actualy lifted this well over six foot tall beast of a man off the floor. Im about 5,10 and of a slight build.
He was pleased with my progress and ended up asking my sifu to hurry up and teach me more so that we could spar more effectively.
He seems to view me as a potensical training partner and he has told me he hasnt found one since he left China. Not many are willing to cross hands with him is a sad truth. Whilst i cant hope to match him i CAN just keep half way up with him. Hence i think i may have a lot to learn from the guy who just gave me the most painfull strike ive ever encountered (ive been hit by a LOT).
There was very definately a big issue of body mechanics to his striking and he explains it that way as well as taught me that way.
Still there was something odd about that strike i swear it, ive been hit pleanty of times in the stomach when im not ready.
This didnt knock the wind out of me or even double me over. It simply felt like a bolt shooting strait though the middle of me.
I still dont know how to explain what he did but the closest i can come is to say it was a VERY penertating strike and was NOT a thump.

At first i was angry at him but now i cant help feeling kinda privildged. He may have hit me but he is also teaching me to hit the same way and he seems to see enough in my technique to want me as a training partner. Dispite being able to proberly kill me with a flick of his wrist.
That and he was generaly pleased when i managed to lift him off the ground so im guessing his strike was just to give me an idea of exactly what kind of power he was discribing produsing.

On the Fa Jing issue...
He discribes his chi power in two ways that i had never heard of before... Long and short
He says his use of chi is a 'long' chi movement and uses a whipping like motion akin to a wave crashing. He discribes FaJing as 'short' chi which is independent of outside movement and is like releasing a charge upon contact. He states he in not capable of using Fajing but trust me when i say his 'long' chi is VERY good.

I had heard of 'thunder' palms in name but im not sure if its a reguarly used term. It may just be a nick name for the type of power generation im really not sure.

[Fu-Pow]

I had a similar experience with a Hsing-I practioner from Brazil.

He was demonstrating some striking techniques on me, both a punch and an elbow strike.

It felt very weird. Like a cold spike passing into my torso as opposed to sting on the surface.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Well.. it seems that FaJing is, itself, subject to many interpretations.. but, the only one that counts is the one experienced.. i've had similar experiences, seemingly small and effortless movements that trashed me in ways i still shudder over.. but, that is the real lesson, the one words fail us on..

i have an acquaintence that, years ago, did some sleep research and he noted movement during the subject's sleep.. He insists that the range of motion and total movement is far greater than the effort expended by the sleeper.. i think the key might be that the movement is independent of "thought".. that the movement stems from a need to adjust the sleepers comfort level.. i have noticed that when i wake up and "intend" to roll over and get up, it just seems to happen (not quite awake enough to actually think).. I have transferred that experience to my training.. now, i am just sensing the opponent and intending my hand/energy to be in a particular place having a particular effect.. how it gets there is left up to realms beyond my ordinary experience.. it works.. i can adjust power and effect by the original intent, no longer needing to effect muscular adjustments.. but, as some of my partners suggest we should be careful that other issues in our lives don't creep into our "intention" causing "over-zealous" demonstrations of our potential..

Surely, we must hone the physical tools.. surely we must train our mind/body connections to be able to issue our "intent".. and, by my own experience that is a process that is no simple task.. it seems that the mind is eager to be in control (at least in my own case).. but, i sense that when we refer to relaxing, the mind needs to relax also.. in that moment our basic life-force (chi) is liberated from the confinement of the mind and flows freely as a more basic aspect of our Being "intends" it (like rolling over during sleep).. Given the intention, without "orders" of how to execute.. the Chi finds its own way to the object of our intention, if it meets resistance along the way it simply adjusts, without the hindrance of having to think about it.. That being said, it has become my own training practice to work on consciously moving Chi with my physical movements, so that when the mind relaxes and the intention takes over, the mind/body connections are well travelled paths, i don't have the hindrance of unexercised or undeveloped tools.. i use the heavy Bag for testing effectiveness of the mind/body connections (the bag doesn't complain).. the effect is observable and adjustments discernable.. Later, after developing compassionate discernment, we can work with partners (unless we are aware of the potential for real harm, we we soon run out of willing partners)..

In the scenario where the "Big Blonde Stranger" seemed to be flailing.. perhaps he had just released his intent, and let his Chi find its own way.. it certainly proved effective, eh..

be well, do good deeds (deeds define us)..

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Jon -

What you discussed is very interesting reading. The first thing I thought of when I read how he hit you is what acupuncture point the man hit.I am not an acupuncturist but I do know that when certain acupuncture points are hit with iron palm, thundering palm, etc., they can do much damage. Do you have a bruise on your stomach? Personally, I feel you are very lucky because if he had hit your stomach with precision you might have been paralyzed/maybe dead. The practicing you did requires someone present with advanced knowledge in case something serious happens. You need to be careful. Sounds like you learned your lesson. Take care.

Damian

[Drone]

Jon,
It's good to hear that you are feeling better. And I am very greatful for your response to my question, I think you really cleared up a number of things for everyone regarding what happened. I think I have to commend you on your guts in crossing hands with this "beast of a man", but at the same time warn you against ever doing something like that again. I guess some of the most valuable learning experiences are the ones you never want to have to repeat. Thanks again, and good luck with your training.
-Drone