My first rant.

[3D Man]

Here's a test:
Do you spar or roll at least four hours a week?
Do you train at least 15 hours a week?
Have you ever fought in a MMA competition?

If you answered no to any of those questions, you should never question the skills of anyone that has the sack to actually get in the ring and fight.

It is a bunch of coulda, woulda, shoulda. Fighting in style specific events is important, but it proves NOTHING with regards to mixed martial arts or street fighting skills. We have a guy that mauls everyone at BJJ tourneys. His guard is sick, but he knows that his game would result in a KO ala Thomas/Iha a couple of UFCs ago. He doesn't fight mixed martial arts. Smart man. In the street, his skills would baffle all comers and unless he comes up against a really profecient MMA fighter, he would break him or leave him unconscious.

Cung le might be unstoppable in San Shou, but he probably knows that his scissor kick takedown leaves him in a neutral to negative position with regards to MMA fighting.

A question that Robert Smith answered in JAMA a few issues ago is "Who would you want with you in a street fight?"

My answer is a MMA fighter first. I don't care if they specialize in strikng or grappling. They will understand how to win.
A BJJ only guy second.
A Judo only guy

My choice is based on the fact that these guys all train live in all three dimensions. They know from experience, The only knowledge that counts. The rest of you idiots are dancing or playing a very limiting game. Your knowledge is paper thin.

[KC Elbows]

Quoth the raven: "Never *****!"

[yenhoi]

LOL.

Your wrong.

[joedoe]

Nice to meet you too. :D

[bamboo_ leaf]

your outlook seems very 2d to me ;)

[red_fists]

Hey 3D-Man.

Some of the toughest Fighters in REAL life Fights I have seen were some of my fellow biking Buddies.

Not all had MA or any fighting training, but you don't want to get on their wrong side.

Fighting in a ring and fighting in a street is VERY different.

While I respect the Guys in the UFC, Pride, etc for what they are doing. I doubt that they will have that much of an edge in a proper real life fight.

Yep, agree they guys are tough, but they still fight in a semi-sports environment.

In a street fight it is brutal and over before you actually know what really happened.

IME, both traditional MA and MMA training, will only get you so far in real fight.

Sorry, but I often feel that People look at the current MMA scene (Pride, UFC) as the latest magical Pill in fighting.
In the end it is the fighter that wins and not the styles/ranges he trained in.

Neither is better nor worse, just that too many People try to look for a quick fix solution rather than trying to find the MA that really suits them and their personality.

Match a Person with the right MA style, good Instructor and magical things will happen.

Just a counter rant,

[Shooter]

I'm just looking for one divine hammer...

[Braden]

I'll bang it all day.

[3D Man]

I'm 3rd generation Cheng Manching. I learned the form a few years back from Jane Faigao. I do it every day, twice a day, both directions. It doesn't teach me jack about fighting. I learn sensitivity, balance, and focus.

When I apply the form sparring at my BJJ school, I learn a lot about fighting with Tai Chi Chuan. Unfortunately I know of only one other Tai Chi guy that will play hard. I'd rather try to apply the techniques to someone that first wants to throw me to the ground and submit me or render me unconscious. I like a challenge.

You are not investing in loss if you have nothing to lose.

Current favorite tai chi chuan techniques that work against bjj/mma guys in live sparring:

Rollback
Wave Hands in Clouds
Golden Rooster Stands on one leg
Step back Repulse Monkey

I have gotten mauled at least 100 times before my first success on each technique.

[Stacey]

DO I?

No.

Have I?

Yes, except not official MMA competition. Just as rough with challengers in the kwoon though.

Why do I need to roll 4 hours a week? Its fun, but I don't have the human resources for that. Besides, the softer I get from tai chi, the faster I can win. Guys that are forcing everything are easy.

Who cares about MMA. All MA are mixed MA. Some are just more well blended. . "MMA" is like a protein drink thats not all the way blended. It will do the job, but it has chalky strange taste that is only gonna suit a few people.

The point is, do you train hard? Have you faught? Then the answer is yes. The world isn't all MMA any more than its TKD.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by 3D Man
I'm 3rd generation Cheng Manching. I learned the form a few years back from Jane Faigao. I do it every day, twice a day, both directions. It doesn't teach me jack about fighting. I learn sensitivity, balance, and focus.

Do you just do form training??

Or do you also do Push Hands, Single movement drills & sparring for your CMC Tai Chi??
If not of course you will be disappointed by it.

Just out of curiosity.

[3D Man]

Guys that have fought regularly in the street are tough as nails, but I think that a guy with several years of MMA, BJJ, or Judo training could handle the street just fine. Best fighter might be a street fighter with MMA training?

I do not think a street brawler like Tank Abbot would have a prayer against any of the heavyweights in todays UFC or Pride....in the street or the ring. He would be toast.

You misunderstand my attitude towards Tai Chi Chuan. I love it, but I have found only one other person interested in actually playing hard. The overwhelming majority of Tai Chi student in the United States think it is standing yoga or something. My alternative is to try to figure out on my own and use it.

[qeySuS]

so unless i've played basketball at college level i'm not allowed to say "man Pheonix Suns are sucking ass tonight" ?

I agree it propably gives you more merit then the layman if you actually do compete in MMA, but if the MMA fanbase was limited to only those who compete it would never have lasted this long, and as long as there are fans there will be jock riders and haters.

[yenhoi]

GO home troll.

Techniques do not defeat fists.

MMA is a cute way for some tuff guys to get the attention thier parents neglected.

Why would you "fight" side by side with a guy who wants to get on the ground?

How does "fighting" in a ring for spectator consumption prove "fighting" skill?

Huh?

[qeySuS]

Btw i'm a huge MMA fan dont get me wrong :) I just think that your statement that you shouldnt critisize those who do fight is wrong.

[3D Man]

No you can be a fan all you want, but unless you have actually fought, you are simply moving your lips. It doesn't have to be at the college level either. A small show with regional fighters gives you the right to speak with authority. I think a intrastyle dojo match counts too. The question is do you train for real and do you have the sack to fight.

Yenhoi,
Not a troll, just someone you don't agree with. Get over it.... ****ant. A technique can be a punch, a kick, a throw, or god forbid...a strangle. Don't limit yourself.

[joedoe]

I get the feeling you are just moving your lips :)

[ewallace]

I don't think they allow 17 year old gang members on PCP in MMA events. Nor is consumption of 13 beers in 2 hours before hand. If MMA events is your sort of thing then that's great. But don't go telling people who have dedicated more than half their life to training that they don't have what it takes because they don't participate in those events. What a load of horse pucky.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“It doesn't teach me jack about fighting. I learn sensitivity, balance, and focus”

and this is not enough.


Why dose every one say things like “ overwhelming majority of Tai Chi student in the United States think it is standing yoga or something.” Instead of all the TC people that I have met where I live?

Here where I live the outlook on TC is very broad, the people practicing reflect this. Each has the wisdom to see and allow others to practice according to their needs and thoughts.

I think you would be surprised at the number of people who don’t fight in these contest but have very good TC skills. how can I say this? although free style push hands is not fighting it is a good indicator of ones ability to absorb and redirect force.

Many people that I have met who play TC and do kickboxing or something else have good power, speed and are quite strong but they don’t really have good TC ability outside of using TC techniques coupled with speed, power, and strength.

I would be careful about lumping all people playing TC here in the US in the same boat.

[joedoe]

I actually kind of agree with you - if you haven't done it then you aren't really the best position to comment. However, I do think that a lot of people are intelligent enough to be able to make informed comment without having to step into the ring.

Apart from all that, I can see this topic sliding back into one of the good old arguments that pops up now and then :).

[red5angel]

Seems that we should practice what we preach, especially before speaking.

[Ryu]

Recently I've been rolling about 2-3 hours a week. Boxing headgear and small gloves, and groundpounding as well as looking for submission, etc. I like groundpounding better personally.

I train at about 9-10 hours a week (actually sometimes up to 14 if I include all the weightlifting, jumping rope, etc.)

I'll never fight in a MMA event. It's not something I desire to do. :)
I'm too deadly! :D LOL JK, actually I just don't care for that kind of competition. I watch it a lot though.

Ryu

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ryu
Recently I've been rolling about 2-3 hours a week. Boxing headgear and small gloves, and groundpounding as well as looking for submission, etc. I like groundpounding better personally.

I train at about 9-10 hours a week (actually sometimes up to 14 if I include all the weightlifting, jumping rope, etc.)

I'll never fight in a MMA event. It's not something I desire to do. :)
I'm too deadly! :D LOL JK, actually I just don't care for that kind of competition. I watch it a lot though.

Ryu

Ryu:
Based on your stated goals of training, I really think you are shortchanging yourself by not entering a couple of MMA competitions. "Competing for sport" in an MMA event or two will bring your street abilities to a whole different level. Try it and then tell me I'm wrong. I don't think you will.

[Ryu]

Well I could always change my mind in the future. You may be right. It's just that if I do compete I really have to have the passion to do it. MMA competitions and the competitors who fight in them are incredibly focused and passionate about what they do. If I go in there without a 100% desire or a half-doubting thought about why I'm entering, etc. I'll get my ass handed to me.
And that's the truth. :)

So if I do compete in the future, I need to make sure my heart is completely focused on that aspect of martial arts. I'm sure you agree. But who knows what the future will bring.
Thanks for the comments. :)
Ryu

[old jong]

....Not "That" again! :rolleyes:

[wushu chik]

WOW!! Look @ all the newbies. Too many to keep up with. They are coming out of the woodwork, and they are like, really obnoxious too!!! This forum is GREAT!!!

~Wen~

[Knifefighter]

In terms of the MMA fighting, I agree with 3d man to a point. If you are a fan and somewhat knowledgeable about the sport, I think it is OK to criticize fighters just like you might criticize professional basketball players. On the other hand, there are some who are not fans and who have never fought in one of these events but criticize them as being "unrealistic" or "just a sport" or "just two guys rolling around on the floor" or "sloppy kickboxing". These are the people who don’t have a clue. To those people who are not fans or fighters, but just critics of the whole concept, I say, get in the ring against a skilled MMA fighter, just once, and then come back and say that.

[3D Man]

Joedoe,

I resent the implication that I am moving my lips. I don't have to move my lips when I type. An Australian was the first man to ever kick my ass. He literally kicked me through a god forsaken door. I started formal training immediately.

The opinions expressed herein are my own. If you don't like them, i am really, really sorrry. :p

I had a hard day. Some yo-yo from Shaolin-Do with his "too deadly for tournament use martial art," so we decided to try a little light sparring. He didn't know how to tap and I tweeked his neck a wee bit. Idiot.

"Master, what does an elbow sound like when you seperate the joint."
'Like crisp celery my son."

[jon]

Can i just quickly point something out...

Knife fighter just wrote an excerlent comment above but i would like to change it a little and show you MMA guys something...

M edited version of knifefighters comments:

In terms of the 'CMA' fighting, I agree with 3d man to a point. If you are a fan and somewhat knowledgeable about the 'art', I think it is OK to criticize fighters just like you might criticize professional basketball players. On the other hand, there are some who are not fans and who have never fought with one of these 'practioners' but criticize them as being "unrealistic" or 'Just for show' or "just two guys rolling around on the floor" or "sloppy kickboxing". These are the people who don’t have a clue. To those people who are not 'cma' or fighters, but just critics of the whole concept, I say, get in 'and fight' against a skilled 'cma' fighter, just once, and then come back and say that.

My point here being that this is an excerlent comment but could be used as a defense for ANY style...
If you guys do not like people saying that MMA is over rated then my advice would be to stop promoting your events as the 'ulitimate' in fighting...

Also the main time i see traditional artists preporting that MMA competions are not street viable are when there under attack from MMA types for there training methods.
You dont see many posts on KFO for example from CMA practioners asking exactly why MMA guys feel the need to use gloves constantly.

[gazza99]

Originally posted by 3D Man
A small show with regional fighters gives you the right to speak with authority. I think a intrastyle dojo match counts too. The question is do you train for real and do you have the sack to fight.



So only sporting events count? I suppose Im out, since I do not care to injure people (including myself ,for glory/money/fun)
I guess saving my own life with my art doesnt fit into your pigeon hole definition of a true fighter?
CMC taiji? No wonder you have not learned much about fighting, just to let you know not all taiji players think learning to fight is purely conceptual (ahhemm.. bamboo...) Some of us do the "alive" like training, to include real time uncooperative sparring, and reactionary drills etc.... Doing forms and push hands alone will not teach you enough about fighting.
I do have a great respect for the MMA competitors they are exceptional althetes. All Martial artists should be well-rounded in all fighting ranges, but saying you have to enter one to know how to fight is an ignorant view.
Oh, and people can talk as much smack as they seem fit about the stuff, its to be expected, how many people do you know talk smack about football, basketball..etc.. and never play at near a pro level? Get over it....
Gary

[red_fists]

Hi.

To a certain degree I am with Jon here.

Personally, I don't care about MMA Tourneys(UFC, Pride, WWF), BJJ's/Groundfighting skills and the like.

But the hype that these days get associated with those styles, comps, etc tends to get a bit on my Nerves.

Neither is anything new, nor have any new insights into fighting or the one technique to end all other technqiues been found.

So of course a lot of traditionalists also get their hackles up, when they get here continiously that our stuff is outdated, ineffeicient, incomplete, etc.
When in reality all it appears to be is some old stuff re-heated and sold under a new name/label.

Just my Opinion.

[joedoe]

Forgive me if it came across that I was offended - I wasn't. I just like to poke fun :)

Anyway, sorry you had a bad day. I can see your point, however a) I think it was a little harsh and b) I think it could have been delivered in a less inciteful manner.

But anyway, it is just a discussion after all, and as you pointed out you are entitled to your opinion :)

[3D Man]

Why won't most folks put it on the line? Their ego pure and simple. Losing sucks and they don't want to lose face. The worst you are looking at is surgery unless you are really, really unlucky.

Red Fist you are absolutely right. The Brazilian's invented nothing, but they are one of the very few groups of martial artists that have maintained the tradition of the challenge or the test. They train hard, even obsessively. They have been credited with something new by many. I think they just were able to maintain the warrior spirit in brazil while it whithered elsewhere in the world.

The question is whether the vine that is still alive can be fully revived. Maeda brought the warrior spirit and two years of instruction. The Gracie's got the rest of the world off of it's ass.

I feel like trying to use wave hands in clouds to set up a kimura is useful. I know it has been done before, but not recently.

No worries Abandit. I'm just having fun twisting nipples.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“CMC taiji? No wonder you have not learned much about fighting, just to let you know not all taiji players think learning to fight is purely conceptual (ahhemm.. bamboo...)”

ha ha this really brought a smile to me thanks. :)

All fighting is conceptual until execution, the basic argument that many try to make here is that because they don’t see many or any CMA players in these events their concept of fighting is out dated assuming you view fighting in terms of these events.

I don’t but many here seem to.

The other argument really concerns training and strategies used, skills developed. Rather style specific until you can get past it.

Which you don’t seem to be by the way.

I would watch those concepts if you don’t understand them they can be quite painful to learn.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by 3D Man
The question is whether the vine that is still alive can be fully revived.

This of course leads to the next questions:
1.) How should the vine be revived?
2.) Who do we entrust to do the reviving?
3.) Is there really a need for the vine to be revived?
4.) Or should we nurture a new off-shoot of this vine that allows us to develop other aspects to deal with modern day challenges(stress, overwork, obesity,etc.)?

No need to reply, as I think everybody needs to find their own answers to these questions.

And discussing the possible answers to these questions would only murky the waters further.

But than I think even the Masters of gone days had to confront these questions on a regular basis.

Just something to ponder.

[3D Man]

Over and out.

[bamboo_ leaf]

3D Man,

Please tell us how many places have you been in the world?
Your statements about the world and the US, how do you come to these conclusions?

[gazza99]

I figured that one would make you smile bamboo! :)

"I would watch those concepts if you don’t understand them they can be quite painful to learn."

That is exactly the point I was trying to make, the concepts (or ideas *syn*) have to be more than just that, they have to be made something tangible. Even if you know and understand a concept, you must be able to apply it.

[Ryu]

Are you really saying that all the people who don't compete don't because of ego? If someone wants to hold down a job, focus on his family and do something other then fight in a cage he's a big sissy and afraid of losing?
I hope that's not what was being alluded to....
It's that kind of thing that makes me NOT want to compete even more. Sometimes I think the people who claim everyone has to cage fight to be legit are just as nuts as the people who say cage fighting isn't realistic.
There's middle ground in life, people.

:) If that's not what you were saying, forgive and forget the post.
It's late, and I'm tired. ;)
Ryu

[apoweyn]

wouldn't it be great if we were capable of making a compelling and intelligible argument without resorting to statements like "anyone that does/doesn't do [fill in the blank] is just a [fill in the blank]."

if you've got a point to make, by all means, fire away. but when you're constructing these arguments, 3D man, how about doing so in a way that isn't designed to be conflictual. you can lay that "it's my opinion" line down, and be perfectly right. it is your opinion. but ask yourself what your objective is. if it is just as you've said, a rant, then you've gotten something off your chest and gotten everyone else's hackles up. well done. but if you want to do something more constructive than that, you may want to try a little more tact.

i agree with much of your point, but absolute statements about people's motivations, fears, and so on aren't useful or fair. they're indications of looking for an argument, not looking to discuss an idea.


stuart b.