View Full Version : The real fight is in the courts!!
Open Stance...
03-12-2002, 12:19 AM
G'Day all,
My question is this,
How do you know how far to take the fight? Could you enter a fight , one that looks like it could get real nasty,knowing that if you win,and maybe that saved your life, that the remainder of it will be spent in jail cause you crippled some punk!!
The **** law stinks!
How is it that you hear these stories everyday about people defending themselves and their the ones that end up paying for it....
So the attacker has some stitches, a broken nose and a few teeth missing...THE GUY WAS GUNNA KILL ME!!!
The media love it....
Yes, you might have saved your life in fighting for it,but whats the point if you have to think twice before picking up the soap in the shower!!!
Whats your thoughts on this??
Maybe leave the vital organs and face alone and go for the knees??
Take away their mobility??
I could palm strike some guy harassing me, he falls, hits his head on the kerb and is ******* DEAD!!!
The judge looks at me and says you have been training for yearsa in martial arts. You had an advantage over him and you knew what you were doing...so i give you 25 in the slammer!!!
Is there some loophole or sublaw within the law i dont know about??
Thanks in advance
Open stance....
respectmankind
03-12-2002, 12:31 AM
if i am driven to self defense, it is only in a threat of life. and if my life is threatened, someone is going to die and soon. that being said, i would not think twice when it comes to the defense, atleast i live to see my jail time. but hell, that is some stupid ****. now if i was being robbed, i would let him have it, like i said, only defend if my life is in danger.
sanchezero
03-12-2002, 12:32 AM
Train harder. Develop your ninja mind control powers and no one will be able to bother you ever again, much less involve you in a complicated legal battle. :)
In all seriousness, I totally empathize with your concerns. It sometimes seems like a catch-22. :(
The trick is to know the laws in your state or country, and understand the line between reasonable force and lethal force. Brawling in the streets is definitely illegal, but depending on the situations hitting someone, knocking them down, breaking their arm, can be legal in the eyes of the law if properly justified. The problem is finding that justification.
If you break someone's nose because he shoved you...you're the attacker.
If you break someone's nose when he's trying to stab you or has some advantage over you (i.e. size, etc) things might be a little different.
Know the laws. Study them, ask police, etc.
Ryu
red_fists
03-12-2002, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by Ryu
Know the laws. Study them, ask police, etc.
Ryu
Sorry, disagree with " ask police".
I have often found that LEO are not that glued up on the specifics of the Law, but than that isn't their Job.
Rather than asking the Police ask a lawyer.
wushu chik
03-12-2002, 12:47 AM
Find out if your state has a "mutual combat" law. Oregon does. it just means if you both agree on the fight, and not just go to someone and start kicking the hell out of them, but you two have to have said YES I WILL FIGHT. And viola.....it's LEGAL!!!!
~Wen~
your best bet is not being there when the cops show up. Don't matter if you feel what you did was justified or not.
Red,
Yeah.
Now that I think about it, a Lawyer probably is a better idea.
Ryu
Paul,
that doesn't mean they can't find and arrest you.
Ryu
I assumed we were talking about being attacked, say like a random assault or robbery. If they don't know me how are they going to find me?
red_fists
03-12-2002, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Ryu
Paul,
that doesn't mean they can't find and arrest you.
In which case you will be off worse in court.
Well for the most part you're probably right in that a random guy off the street won't have any idea where to find you....but you've got to still be prepared. Weirder things have happened, you might drop your wallet, he sees where you work, etc.
Ryu
respectmankind
03-12-2002, 12:59 AM
hmmm. i thought it was random assault to, well, if it was not that i would just not bother.
I've been involved in some street action when the cops showed up and it's definately not a good thing to be there when they arrive. You could be totally justified in the action that you took but the cops can screw you over if they take the other persons side for whatever reason.
In which case you will be off worse in court
Really, how's that? I could kick someones ass and wait for the cops, or kick their ass and go home. How is the second one worse? it's not like it's a high speed pursuit. The cops would have to find you at work or at home whatever.
Well if it was a random assault, I wouldn't stay there either.
I was just saying you still gotta know the law, etc.
To be honest, I think most fights happen with people you know or have some kind of access to rather than robberies, etc. Places that people will know you like workplace, job, school, university, etc. You'd be surprised the numbers of fights in the workplace for instance.
Ryu
wushu chik
03-12-2002, 01:07 AM
Well, if that's the case...just take out their knee so that they can't follow you.....then call the cops. In my experiences, it's been proven more times than i can count, the person who calls the cops first, get's in the LEAST amount of trouble!!!
~wen~
red_fists
03-12-2002, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by Paul
Really, how's that? I could kick someones ass and wait for the cops, or kick their ass and go home. How is the second one worse? it's not like it's a high speed pursuit. The cops would have to find you at work or at home whatever.
You loose credibility by walking away and not being a dutifull citizen and wait for the cops.
Plus, if the Cops find only one Guy there, guess, what his story will be. And what will be written on the Police papers.
If you were attacked why do you go home, and NOT wait for the Cops to lay charges.
tsunami surfer
03-12-2002, 11:51 PM
When you leave the scene of an incident whether a fight or a shooting you will be percieved as guilty. Its called"flight equals guilt" Just because you break an attackers nose does not mean you will go to jail. There are 4 elements to self defence
ABILITY- Does the person have the ability to hurt or injure you(stick knife gun broken bottle ect)
OPPORTUNITY- Is the person CLOSE enough to you to employ his ability to harm you.
IMMINENT JEOPARDY- Is it happening RIGHT NOW!
PRECLUSION- Have YOU done everything possible including retreating to a safe place to avoid using force.
All four of these things must be present to use self defence.
'
If you were attacked why do you go home, and NOT wait for the Cops to lay charges.
Because I've been there when the cops showed up before and got taken to the cop shop with someone else's blood all over me held there for hours and screwed with when I was the one who got attacked.
So you go ahead and be the good citizen and see how far it gets you. I've learned my lesson.
3D Man
03-13-2002, 06:35 AM
We have a couple of lawyers who train at our school. I was talking to them the other day about this very topic and it comes down to the incrediably vague concept of "expectation of harm."
What you expect at the time of the conflict in essence dictates as what qualifies is a reasonable and thereby legal response. If you expect that someone is going to kill you, you may legally fight for your life. It is self defense. You may kill your attacker.
The problem is the interpretation of the situation. Will the cops interpret your actions as self defense or murder? If the cops arrest you, will a jury agree with you or the state?
A couple of rules of thumb to minimize your risk of going to jail. Unfortunately, you will limiting your arsenal. Try not to make them bleed. Take a little punishment. Breaking an arm is better than the legs. Do not attack the spine. Unfortunately, no one can predict the future or how others will interpret your actions.
This is not legal advice.
Royal Dragon
03-13-2002, 09:12 AM
This is a GOOD topipc. Personally, I would leae the scene, and go STRAIT to the Police station!!!
Why??
Because if your life is threatened, but you stay and wait for the cops you are STILL in danger. Better to flee for your life (Demonstraighting fear) and go to the police (demonstraigitng you have been wronged), then to run and NEVER contact police, or stay and later have the losser's defense attoourny say "Well, if he was so scared for his life, why did he stick around long enough for the cops to show?"
Also, stress you tried to back away, and did not want to fight, but he pushed it, and looked like a pshyco who was not in controll of his facilitys.
Black Jack
03-13-2002, 03:49 PM
If you are the one who is walking away and their are no witnesses, take off, let the cops deal with the mess, forget the good citizen stuff, you will only dig yourself a steel barred grave with that one.
Most of the legal world is pro-criminal/ anti-self defense, get the hell out of dodge, leave the scence.
Drone
03-13-2002, 06:26 PM
A bunch of my friends (5 non-martial artists) tried to play the good guys when a fight broke out. They stepped in and tried to resolve the conflict peacefully. The entire mob (20+ individuals) turned on them instead. All five of them ended up in the hospital with a range of injuries from cuts and bruised ribs, to dislocated shoulder, to stitches from numerous bottles broken over their heads. When the cops arrived and were told what went down my friends were all taken to the hospital and then questioned. Its been a year now not a single guy who ran when the cops came is being charged with anything. Apparently one of the attackers was hurt, he is pressing charges on my friends. Why? because they were the only suckers still around when the cops arrived. Take your own moral from this story. I just think the law works for who ever has the best attorney.
red_fists
03-13-2002, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Black Jack
If you are the one who is walking away and their are no witnesses, take off, let the cops deal with the mess, forget the good citizen stuff, you will only dig yourself a steel barred grave with that one.
Bassically, I would agree there, except that you can never be 100% sure that there were no witnesses.
Just because you don't see someone, doesn't mean that they weren't there.
Just a thought.
Black Jack
03-13-2002, 06:42 PM
Red Fists,
True but if given the chance I would leave the situation, better to deal with it latter with a cool head, then get nabbed for defending yourself.
Something which as we both know, does happen, the good guy does not always win, at least not in the pc/liberal mainframe that exists in a number of states, towns, areas.
Japan, may be different, your advice may be very valid from that perspective, all I know is that if I can, I would avoid the cops,how many horror stories have we all heard where a person who had all the right in the world to crush the other guy, got robbed of his rights because of it, by the very people who are supposed to be protecting him.
Just thoughts,
red_fists
03-13-2002, 06:51 PM
Actually in Japan, it is best not to get into a fight at all.
According to Japanese law "Self Defense" is non-existant and MA practicioners automatically are the guilty party if they fight.
Black Jack
03-13-2002, 06:59 PM
That sucks that Japan is now so infused with the "UN" mindframe that protecting oneself from rape, murder, theft is considered a no-no.
Here on my own home front, good people are trying to fight off that kind of bs thinking, you know the type, self defense is bad, guns are bad, knifes are bad, having a spine is bad, making a stand is bad, doing anything aggressive in nature is bad.
Even so much that people in some towns/states are trying to ban dodge ball games at schools, you know the game where kids throw the ball at each other and say your out, talk about people who have their head shoved up their own ass.
Mutant
03-13-2002, 07:17 PM
It all depends, of course, on the particular situation...
But if caught in a nasty perdiciment where self defence or a good old fashioned @ss kicking is nessesary, I think its best to do the dirty work that has to be done and then get the **** out of Dodge, ASAP!
Thats just my personal opinion. The worlds a tough place, and if god forbid you have to take action, I sure as hell wouldnt volunteer to be the one who goes through the beaurocratic wringer. I know what its like to get thrown in the slammer for fighting and the question of fairness or justification goes right out the window, at least until your court appearance, and then its still up to who has the best lawyer and most friends in high places & resources. When a fight has taken place, cops just want to get their hands on anyone involved, thats their job, and then you have to prove your innocense, even if its supposed to be the other way around.
Of course if some killer attacks you with a knife or something like that, I might not be so skeptical, but in your average street fight, its best to do what you need to do and then disappear.
Thats another thing I like about kung fu over other arts that get all tense with large obvious movements and holler 'KI-YAAAA'!!!! The less conspicuous, the better. Better to drop him and walk away then start screaming like a maniac and draw everyones attention to your actions. I'd much rather have a possible witness telling the cops "I don't know, it looked like the guy just fell down and hurt himself.." than "this martial arts guy went ballistic and kicked the dudes arse!"
"According to Japanese law "Self Defense" is non-existant and MA practicioners automatically are the guilty
party if they fight."
I know EXACTLY what I'm gonna do when I go back there now muahahhaha! :D
Some of them deserve to get their asses kicked anyway. ........... ... evil Ryu hadou...rising...
Fight KILL DEATH! KILL ALL HUMANS!
(hey there sexy lady...wanna kill all humans?)
Futurama reference :D Just had to.
Ryu
uh...I mean
Evil Ryu
Arhat of Fury
03-14-2002, 11:34 AM
These questions make me laugh-sorry. It is common sense in a situation that will keep you out of trouble. Mercy is the way that will keep you out of jail.
If you are getting robbed attacked blah blah blah... Basically if you have to defend yourself you just need to use your head.
If assailant attacks you and you (lets say) bust his teeth out in one move, he will now be in so much pain that any further attack will be easily controlled and at that point if you choose to "beat his a$$" any more, you are putting yourself at risk of jail. You are now choosing your destiny. Do you want to be a badass? or do you want to be a humble practitioner of MA and use your self defense wisely.
Now lets take the other hand, If you execute a devastating technique on the attacking assailant and it maims him but he's got a heart the size of earth and he still coming at you full force 1st, see if there are any witnesses around that can back you up.(if you are a trained person this will not take that much time or be that difficult) If not immobilize the opponent then get away. If anything comes back to you , you have a solid story. You see. its all about sense.
Some of you say oh " Ill beat his a$$ and do this and do that----c'mon man, if your really that bad then you can control your opponent and any further a$$ beating is malicious and you should be put in jail.
AOF
What's strange is when people think they have time during an altercation to "see if they can restrain him or whether he is a bigger threat, etc."
In a real fight things happen pretty quick, and you have no idea what the guy knows usually. If for example someone comes at you and you hit him first and follow up with three other punches and a knee when he falls to the floor, you've neutralized the threat, and he's no longe a threat (let's say). So yes, you don't need to further any beating. But is this "accessive" in the eyes of the law? What if you hit him once and he falls, and while you are deciding whether to follow up or not he pulls a gun and shoots you? What is justified? What if you don't know what he has or how good his skills are? Here's another scenario. Someone wants to do great bodily harm to you, and is bigger than you too. You hit him and knock him down, but to your dismay it was just a lucky shot on your account and now since you thought "that was enough" he gets up and kicks your ass. And there's nothing you can do about it. Would it have been better to follow up that lucky shot and make sure he COULDN'T get up to hurt you again? How do you know how good he is?
Sometimes you can tell yes...but sometimes you can't. If you make a wrong decision it could cost you a great deal. So what do you do?
Okay, only hit him if he hits first. But you misjudge and he gets through your defenses..his punch is so strong it knocks you out, and he begins to beat on you. You don't know. You can't tell. Don't think your martial art will always work unless you've tested it in full contact scenarios like that. The street opponent is GROSSLY underestimated I think. Sure most people are not too skilled, but how can you tell during an encroachment? During harsh words?
I say you use the amount of force necessary to make the opponent no longer a threat. That doesn't mean kill him, but punching someone once might just **** them off. Trying to restrain them, you might find out they are a much better wrestler than you. You never know. You've got to be more strategic then the simple "square off" type thing.
Ryu
Arhat of Fury
03-14-2002, 12:37 PM
Ryu, just so I am understanding you correctly...
If a big intimidating fellow wants to fight and you get in a "lucky shot and he drops momentarily or permanently, your going to stick around to see if he wants to get up???????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????
Know your opponent, know your situation, know your surroundings.
Again-Common Sense!!!!!!!!!!
Peace
LOL
Well obviously if you get the chance to get the hell out of there you should take it.
Again though what if you take off, and he is a faster runner than you? Or he does have a gun and he shoots you while you are getting out of there?
These aren't really rhetorical questions, I'm going through them in my own head :D All I'm alluding to is that "knowing your opponent, knowing the situation, and knowing what to do."
are easier said than done. Sometimes what seems like common sense backfires.
I guess I'm just working through worst case scenarios.
3D Man
03-14-2002, 02:48 PM
Officer: What happened here?
3D: I thought he was going to kill me, sir.
Officer: What made you think that?
3D: He told me he was going to kill me. OR He moved towards me to try to strike me. OR I thought he was reaching for a gun. (you shouldn't be fighting unless one of these is true.)
Officer: So you broke his leg and ran away?
3D: Yes sir. I figured it was the safest thing for him and me.
Officer: Tell me step by step how this happened.
3D: First he grabbed me and knocked me down. Our legs got entangled. He fell over and I heard his knee pop. He yelled in pain. I thought I needed to get out of there. I didn't know if he had a gun or something. I'm a pretty big guy. I thought it was crazy for him to come at me like that.
Officer: OK, stand over here.
This is my story and I'm sticking to it.
Arhat of Fury
03-14-2002, 02:55 PM
Ryu, I get what your saying and I dont mean to come off harsh. Now that I see your basing things on "if everrything in this situation went wrong " scenario. I was just relating it to what Ive seen and been and Ive never(knock on wood) had asituation go " that" bad and this includes getting jumped, bar fights and 10 on 10's so anyway just trying to shed some light- didnt mean to blast.
Amitoufu,
AOF
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