The road to being a Sifu (discussion) [Archive]

EARTH DRAGON

03-12-2002, 07:58 AM

I agree! I had a black belt in okinawian karate which only took 3 years before I reached the sifu level in 8 step which took much longer. In chinese arts there is much more to learn than the usual forms, kicks and blocks. There is the internal side, soft side and medical. It seems as though some systems forget the WHOLE and concentrate on only part of the whole. This is much easier to teach and takes far less time, however if you compare it to old time sifu's now are a dime a dozen. I think it goes with anything that the level or bar has been dropped and the masses are reaching this level based on money or only learning a predetermined level of knowledge. It would seem that in the olden dys the level of sifu would be a great acomplishment as would master or grandmaster. But nowadays one can be a master in 3 easy payments........

Hua Lin Laoshi

03-12-2002, 08:04 AM

That kind of touches on my opinion of Sifu's who teach 3 to 5 different styles yet are under 40 years old (not bashing anyone). Currently I'm less than 2 weeks away from being a Sifu (provided I pass) and I've been at it for 12 years. Now, I'm sure I could have done it in 8 years (technically) but the last few years have changed me quite a bit and I've been focusing in areas that didn't interest me as much back then. I'm not sure how much is age related and how much is the result of the amount of time spent training.

A related question would be "How long does it (or should it) take to master a system"? I figure you need at least 10 to 15 years before you really know the system. What do you think?

BeiTangLang

03-12-2002, 08:05 AM

I forgot to mention the time I believe to be required.
I fully believe 6-10 years of training;depending upon the system, should be required of a sifu level instructor.
I know this may sound like quite a bit of time but as I have mentioed before, I believe there is a "time-in-system" requirement that should be a factor as well as "sets known", etc, etc.
I cannot/will not believe an instructor is legitamate sifu after studying 2 years without previous similar M/A experience.

While I'm thinking of it, I will post yet another discussion topic;

Respectfully,
BTL

Hua Lin Laoshi

03-12-2002, 08:32 AM

Is that 6 - 10 years American style (part-time while working and raising a family) or Chinese style (all day every day). I just wonder, if the old masters spent their lives mastering one style how is it that Americans can study part-time while working at a job and master one or more by the time they're in their 40's? I guess it's a sign of evolution.

BeiTangLang

03-12-2002, 08:56 AM

I am not talking Mastery of the system, but a true working knowledge of a system enought to teach it proficiently. So to answer your questions HLL,
American style training.

Living here does not lend itself well to the Chinese way of doing things unless you are very rich. *unfortunently*

EARTH DRAGON

03-12-2002, 09:53 AM

In this topic several points can be raised.
For example in 8 step we have levels,
four basic (colored sashes) the body cordinations, the eights , the kicks and the sets.

Then the silver level is application to those basics.

Then the gold level, applications to the silver with the (shuai chaio) throws and (chin na fa ) joint locks.

This is where the sifu level begins. This information can be learned in 4 or 5 years, however while learning the movements does not really mean that you KNOW the movements. For example when we learn the 40 throws you have to know them all by memory and perfrom them. This does'nt not mean that you can actually use all 40 in combat or against a resisting opponent. that would take years in itself.
So you have to ask is just knowing the material good enough? poper execution of any one technique can take years to to become proffcient in let alone master.

When performing the sets is just knowing the application good enough? or should you be able to use any given technique properly? again this would tkae many years an double that to master.
GM? well I dont think that in this day and age anyone non chinese can be considered a GM. this takes a lifetime and as hua lin loashi you cannot have a job or modern life things , ie TV, internet, baseball and any other things that use up your time.

BeiTangLang

03-12-2002, 12:53 PM

So then,..What of the 2-3 year Mantis Sifu's?

EARTH DRAGON

03-12-2002, 01:13 PM

If you are speaking about james shyun 8 step. He has devised what he calls a "sifu" program. You learn everything at a accelerated rate. You attend 2 sifu camps and cover the medical and tai chi and you get your rank. Heres the catch.. it costs 5,000.

While I was not a fan of this idea when he thought about it in the late 90's he formed it anyway, and then told us that we had to elect 1 student from each school to enroll in the sifu program. I honestly told my highest ranking student not to join and that I thought it was not worth the money I told him I would teach him the same thing for free!
I just thought it sounded like a money making scam like the black belt programs that gaurntee you a BB in just one year. 3 schools in my area have this program and it is a bunch of crap! I am a good teacher and care only about my students. If my rent is paid and I have electric and heat I am happy. My profiet lies in teaching and sharing my knowledge with my students not in their pocket books..........

isol8d

03-12-2002, 02:55 PM

on the note of american style vs chinese style of learning.

I think it's more 21st century style vs Older style learning. We live in an age where a lot of conviences afford us more & less time. We generally don't have to pump a well for water, but we do have to work to pay our water bills.

But as far as how long until you're qualified to teach, that's interesting, because I think I've learned 30% or more of what I have learned from the students who have been there for a year or two longer than I have.

But they are not my Sifu.

Stacey

03-12-2002, 03:23 PM

the belief that training of old consisted on once a week in a park is nonsense.

How about training 5-6 hours a day doing far more than they can bear? Someone training over 10 hours a week is gonna learn much faster than a 2 hour a week student. In fact I have seen references to this training in many sources, chinese literature, comic books, movies, "The Wandering Taoist" A time when they were "on the mountain" for 2-3 years doing intense training for the basic martial ability. It is my understanding that in Sifu camps the education is continued to high levels.

ED. You didn't think it was worth it? How much money did you waste in karate? How much would you spend learning all of that same info?

I'm not a Sifu and unless I can finish my training, I won't ever be, but the time I spent there was worth every penny. Would I trade it all back, all the memories and skill for the cash value? Not in a million years. My Sifu worked me like a dog. 20,000 punches in 40 minutes, 500 frog jumps, countless push ups. Forms, tai chi, flow drills, shiatsu, hitting the mat hundreds of times each practice.

I have more than I can digest as it is. As I practice I can understand more, but since I don't practice like I did, I don't make the connections as fast.

You can say its an americanization, but I have seen Sifu trainees make other blackbelts look stupid. I have seen then personally school other Sifus who never did all the hard stuff and don't have the same base, power, or technique. They are indoor students, the leaders of the school and so they have to have this ability. I too had it, but the training was relentless and kept getting harder.

PaulLin

03-12-2002, 03:49 PM

I think if you join the Army, you will get similar result. That has a little to do with Martial Art knowledge.

plus, you get $$ by join the Army, no pay for it.

EARTH DRAGON

03-12-2002, 03:59 PM

My karate cost nothing, I was taught by victor vega's student and he tuaght my when he moved from NYC to buffalo and i got hima job and inreturn he taught me for free.

Do I think that paying someone up front 5, 000 to learn kung fu is too much YES. I paid nothing to live with master shyun or become a sifu. I just cleaned the school, teach kids class and run errands. but that was before he was soo greedy and in debt from his divorce and the loss of insurance money from the fire in S.F.

Please dont brag about how much your sifu put you through for I know jack very well and you are exaggerating the truth.
I will not say anything bad about jack becuse he is my freind but remember I came to your school and gave a seminar and had to correct jacks 8's, his sets and even the jointlocks mostly becuse he was focusing on his tae kwon do so please dont lie about your training for I know the truth............. so please be honest with yourself...............

PaulLin

03-12-2002, 04:13 PM

Taekwondo and Karate are not compatable with real Chinese Martial Arts. All my father's teachers: GM Wei, GM Chang, GM Wang, GM Han, all talk the same way. They all think that if one still practice TaeKwondo and Karate while practicing Chinese Martial Arts, that the Chinese Martial Arts skills are not good enough. If one has enough level in the real Chinese MA, TKD and Karate will be obsolate.

Stacey

03-12-2002, 06:11 PM

ED- I didn't lie about my training. You have been out of the picture a long time. Changes have happened, you really don't know whats going on. I'm not saying who my Sifu was.

Master Sun is not greedy now, he was just generous to you then. Rather than appreciate it, you feel that he owed it to you. Its very sad really.

Bruce bought yip man a condo. His other students bought him a house. Now reconsider what is greedy.

Cello lessons from Yo Yo MA are gonna cost you. Is he evil and greedy? No, just specialized.

Paul Lin- The US army has its recruits do the Sifu trainining program? I didn't know that. Probably just the basic drills.

Did you talk to the fight promoter yet? What fights are you looking to compete in?

EARTH DRAGON

03-12-2002, 08:19 PM

WHAT YOU DONT LIE!!!!!!!
You lied about your gender! how can you expect anyone to believe you when you cant even tell the truth about what sex you are.

You dont have to tell me who your sifu is I already know. I dont want to fight with you, but you are a trouble starter. I read your posts and 90 % of them are sacastic, instagative or slandering. You need to be a little nicer to people and maybe people will treat you with respect...

Remember when you told me that I was the best looking sifu in 8 step.... then you admitt a year later that you are a guy. you have some issues that need addressed.

You should live your life by the golden rule and you will find that people treat you the way you treat them..............

spiralstair

03-13-2002, 01:44 AM

It takes more than 1000's of repititions to make a sifu...more than all the forms, all the applications, all the drills and the techniques of a particular style.
It takes students.
The knowlege of martial movement and its meaning is one thing. The ability to pass on that knowlege to someone else despite of all the little things that get in the way(like personality) is totally another.
Interaction with the many types of 'learning styles' and the adjustments the instructor must make to 'transmit' the martial art can only be learned through time...and many students.

If it was just about 'how good you are' then the best martial artists would make the best sifus, the best athletes would make the best coaches,etc. Observation shows that this is very rarely the case, and the 'natural' hardly ever makes a good coach because he can't tell you howhe does it so well, he just does. The good sifu and/or coach is one who had to work for their skills and can then help others search for their own particular way.

If it was just about 'eating bitter' then there would lots amazing sifus around. There is not.

There is really no such thing as a "Sifu Program", because at the end of all the passed on knowlege(whether you 'bought' it or 'earned' it) all you get is an 'Instructor', who may become a Sifu, but only through the fire of time and students.

BeiTangLang

03-13-2002, 05:45 AM

Very nice insight Spiralstair. One of the points I was hoping would surface during this discussion.
***
Side-note: Please stop with the personal attacks. Remember the topic please***
***

I too believe that anything presented as a "sifu training program" is highly likely to be nothing more than a physical training regimin. For it to truely be a "Sifu" training course, it would be conducted during regular classes & would teach you how to teach. The kicker is, you should already know the system before-hand (ie., forms & applications).

Anyway, thanks for all of your opinions. I would like to see more discussions of technical validity in here! or at least, like this one, opinions upon "on-topic" subjects.
Thank you all,
BTL

seung ga faat

03-13-2002, 09:04 AM

Sifu means father and their are all types of fathers. You have teenage fathers ,young father, old fathers... If your Sifu gives you permission to teach in the presence of his peers and lineage and or certifies you to teach you can teach. But, even all this will not make you the best teacher. Teaching has many phases and the first phase is the mimic your teacher phase. I believe the true father phase begins when expand beyond the mimic stage.
As for the amount of time you have to spend before you have mastered the style? It takes as long as it takes.
My Sifu used 5 years of training as the minimum before he would consider you for a disciple. I have been with him as a student for over 16 years and I have had the opportunity to learn from others but, I have refused.
If you have to many teachers who is your Sifu?
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Stacey

03-13-2002, 10:11 AM

ED.

I stand by what I said, "You are the best looking 8 Step Sifu I have ever seen. So what if I'm a guy. What? I can't know when another guy is handsome?

BeiTangLang

03-13-2002, 11:11 AM

Stacey,..Back on topic please.

PaulLin

03-13-2002, 11:28 AM

How you describe Shyun's sifu camp really reminds me of how Army training is. In TW, all citizens are required to be dreaft in army service and Shyun surely gone through that and learned it well.

In TW Army, their goal is to create a fighting machine that will ask no question, no question the authority personels, 100% obey, no self justification, and no take any info form other resources.(all country seem to do similar) And the machine was created to protect the country.(in Shyun's case, it sounds like his personal money machine)

The steps are like this:

1. Firm authority. One must make hiself sepreme. Give himself title. Create legend to make others not compatable to him.

(and yet, Shyun done that with all his support untraceable. Just think how possible a person will has every thing he claim untraceable. I can only believe that over half of claim untraceable is suspect enough)

2 promise of giving. Give promise that are totally self made. It will work only when others recognize it, won't work if others don't recognize it. Same as in army, if the rank is not serve an authority in a supermarket, he can't have any special treatments. And by giving promise, one will think he/she is actually getting some thing as in benefit for them. However, it may not worth much when it is out side of the circle.

3 kill the mind. Usually done by over-the-limit on body works or emotional attack. In army, they make you gone over all the body limit as well as emotional limit. In doing that, your brain release chemicals to tell itself to obey inorder to survive. At the same time, you brain is too sweel to think, so it will take all input at the time and regard them as truth. That is how they brain washed people to make them a machine.

4 keep issolated. Make all others less important, unbelievable, or evil so that you will not come to your thought. That will keep you under the commend for the purpose. So no one else can interfere the authority.

If a person gone through army training will not easy fall into the same things again.

The real good MA teaching is not make you sacrafice your life to learn arts. It should make arts serve the needs of life and help individual improving in their spirit, mind, chi, and body in every day living. It should not control authority to any single human being, it should give authority to the truth, knowledge, and humanity. It should not be issolated form challenges and not able to give satisfictory answers by trun away form questions.

I don't see the sifu program will make a student sifu. A sifu is the one who are 1. have knowledge and experience that the students don't have. 2. are able to benefit and pass those down to students. 3. have a father-son like relationship in kungfu aspect that will take on the tudi's futrue kungfu(or even personal) development as his own responsiblity. That is what truely make a sifu.

BeiTangLang

03-13-2002, 11:56 AM

Nice post Paul,..however, please stop using Shyun's name as a bad example. Thanks for your cooperation.
BTL

PaulLin

03-13-2002, 12:01 PM

Gotcha, Bei TangLang.

mantis108

03-13-2002, 12:06 PM

The real good MA teaching is not make you sacrafice your life to learn arts. It should make arts serve the needs of life and help individual improving in their spirit, mind, chi, and body in every day living. It should not control authority to any single human being, it should give authority to the truth, knowledge, and humanity. It should not be issolated form challenges and not able to give satisfictory answers by trun away form questions.

That's very well put, Paul.

Martial Arts is about educating a person to become a better person. One can not learn with a closed mind. Too bad that many confused martial arts with martial sports or ritual arts. Education and entertain are very different animals. That awareness is the responsablity of the Sifu.

Mantis108

Hua Lin Laoshi

03-13-2002, 01:03 PM

I guess if we're just talking about teaching then knowing the material is enough to get started but I'd rather not learn from someone training less than 5 or 6 years. Being a Sifu, to me, is much more than just knowing the material. Don't forget you're actually teaching more than just the forms and apps, you're teaching a lifestyle. Ten to fifteen years at least (you have to grow up some first).

So how old were you (Sifus) before you ceased being a hothead? Remember that your students will follow your example. Depth of MA knowledge goes beyond how many forms you know or how many apps you know for each technique. Two to three years and you might know some stuff and be able to use it but that's about the beginning of the 'fat head' stage when ego rules.

PaulLin

03-13-2002, 06:25 PM

I agree, Hua Lin. It does take about 10 years in average for the maturaty of the art that is good enough to be a kungfu-father/sifu. However, in American today, even in every day families often have problems out there that has to do with immature fathers, it is very difficult to pass on the good quality nowadays in the fast road living style.

Stacey

03-13-2002, 06:32 PM

Thats true, no American is as good as the average Chinese.

yu shan

03-13-2002, 10:39 PM

Hua Lin Laoshi

I would like to wish you good luck on your upcoming Shrfu test with MC. It is a good thing how MC re-tests his Shrfu`s every _ years. Really helps to keep everybody sharp and on the same page. I respect you alot because you could have tested a few years ago and did not. What`s the rush right? You have the source right there, your timing is right. Enjoy every moment of this most auspicious occasion in your Kung Fu career. You know what you went thru to get where you are now, A to Z! This is going to be fun as **** and hard as ****! I`ve been there, and will never forget it.

Pong Lai

03-13-2002, 11:32 PM

Stacey,
You must be Chinese. I am sure you would change your perception of us white boys if you had the opportunity to meet Tainan Mantis or I.

Paul Lin,

Actually I should address you as ShrShu®v¨û.
Your father, used to be a PE instrcutor in a Taiepei middle school.
He should remember my teacher Shr Zheng Zhong¬I¬F©¾, as he taught him 7 hands fist form. Teacher Shr was also a long time student of GM Wae Xaio Tang, and still resides here in Tainan.

Glad to have met you.

Yu Shan, see you soon

Hua Lin Laoshi

03-14-2002, 08:43 AM

yu shan
Xie xie. My original plan was to move back out west in '98 but things didn't work out so I'm still here in Florida. It's just as well as opportunities seem to be opening up now. Like I said in my earlier post I've changed a bit the past 4 years and I think it was all for the better. Time makes a big difference and there are no shortcuts. I wasn't in any real hurry to be a Sifu anyhow. I just let thing progress on their own and when it's time I go with it. But that's just me.

Pong Lai
Feel good to be back in Taiwan? I'll have to make it a point to see Taiwan someday. It sounds like I would really like it there. I'd like to hear your opinion on the subject since you've put in the time yet you're still young. Do you feel fatherly towards your students even though some are older than yourself?

I guess I'm seeing the question more from a maturity standpoint rather than just technical knowledge and ability.

PaulLin

03-14-2002, 01:36 PM

I think I have pictures of Shr, at the time he learn ChiShou. He was in ShuaiChiao uniform isn't it? I will come up with it next time, in prayingmantikungfu.com, they have already posted one picture of that in the photo section, but may not be very clear.

Glad to meet you too:)

Pong Lai

03-14-2002, 03:15 PM

"Pong Lai
Feel good to be back in Taiwan? I'll have to make it a point to see Taiwan someday. It sounds like I would really like it there. I'd like to hear your opinion on the subject since you've put in the time yet you're still young. Do you feel fatherly towards your students even though some are older than yourself? "

It would be very easy for me to return here. However, it is about time I returned to the US and began establishing my own roots. I am fortunate to have the opportunity to return often, thanks for all those frequent flyer miles.

Well, I am not a spring duck anymore! Because of my age, I am able to play the role on several levels. One as a Father figure, no matter the age of the student. The leadership role of a Shrfu naturally brings this into play. I am also able to develop a more "same level" personality in communicating with students. I would looks at these times of being more like a brother. However, no matter what role I take part in, the respect (in an un Godly way)
is expected by me from the student.

On another note, I visited one of my Shr YEh's (Grand Masters)
yesterday. He, his son, and now 5 year old grandson all have learned Testicle Gung. Sucking the testis into its original pouch. You know. Not even my punch there could budge him.

yu shan

03-14-2002, 10:17 PM

Hua Lin Laoshi

Where is out west? I don`t think MC has anyone teaching WL west of Texas, could be wrong. Kenny you`z to teach in LA area.
I hear ya on the changes man, I`m going thru the same cycle. Of all things, being my age, and learning the mantis style Pong Lai is teaching me. It`s a challenge sometimes to keep up with the pace. There is no cutting of corners with my teacher either, just wish I was a few years younger, yet enjoy every second of it.
Good-luck on traversing the flourscent bulb! Ha

Peace
Yu Shan

Hua Lin Laoshi

03-15-2002, 03:58 PM

yu shan
I lived in El Paso before moving to Florida but I really like New Mexico. Recently, the company I work for announced it's moving the corporate office to Las Vegas. They haven't given me a formal offer yet but I'm leaning towards going. I'll be opening a school there if things work out. If not I'll open one here in Florida. Either way I'll be looking for pointers on teaching and running a school from you "old timers". :D

yu shan

03-15-2002, 06:54 PM

Hua Lin

Viva Las Vegas! MC would probably love to have a school there. Imagine having seminars and all the fun stuff to do, I would definetely lean towards sin-city!
I grew up spending alot of my summers in New Mexico, with the grandparents, yet another wonderful place. As you know totally dif. from LV. Have you done any research yet on the two areas? My hunch would be LV, more people, but then NM attracts the artsie crowd. What a nice decision to have to make!
I look at you as a seasoned veteran, MC has the advice for you. In my opinion, would not stay in Fla. too saturated, spread your style out west.
Peace
YS

Ye Gor

03-18-2002, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by Stacey
My Sifu worked me like a dog. 20,000 punches in 40 minutes, 500 frog jumps, countless push ups.

I think you are mistaken there, Stacey. It was 21,463 punches in 39.51 minutes. But you are correct about the push ups... those were countless.

Tainan Mantis

03-18-2002, 08:20 AM

Paul Lin,
Shr Zhengzhong is not in the picture you mentioned on George Lisjak's web site.

Yegor,
Stacey's feats of strength sound unbelievable. I think that is what you were trying to say.

I recall about half a year ago someone, maybe Earth Dragon, posted his school's sifu test. The part with many push ups and what not.

At first I thought he was joking, but it seems to be the truth.
I wanted to save it, but many pages were lost in the move. Are there any people from that school who could repost that test?

Tainan Mantis

03-18-2002, 08:20 AM

Stacey

03-18-2002, 08:58 AM

Well I read in the Master Sun interview that he did, 5000. I want to be good too. So I'm working my way up. I did one hundred single leg squats before, with the other leg extended strait.

Its only impossible when you are a servant to your bodies desires. When you can transcend pain through relaxed meditation, a whole new world of physical possiblities emerges. I was one of the serious Sifu students and when I return, I want to shine like 10,000 suns. But to do that I must laquer my body in dark pain for countless days.

according to the Navy Seals a human body under pressure can do 10x their supposed physical limits. Do you have the guts?

Hua Lin Laoshi

03-18-2002, 09:32 AM

Well I've seen some pretty amazing things in my travels and heard some remarkable stories from reliable sources so I wouldn't discount anything.

Stacey

03-18-2002, 09:38 AM

I'm not alone in this. Other Sifu students are waay past me. some 30,000 in an hour and hold a falling stance for 10 minutes.

It only seems like fantasy because you do what is comfortable. I have cried in anguish, bled and sweated buckets. Is unbeleivable that people run a mile under 6 minutes? How about jumping over 6 feet? Running marathons? Triathaletes?

Watch a documentary on the US Navy seals. I relate to those guys. They get giddy and punch drunk from exhaustian. To me, thats what makes kung fu fun.

That is traditional indoor training.

Ye Gor

03-18-2002, 10:28 AM

20,000 pushups in 40 minutes = 8.3 pushups per second.

8 pushups per second?!

Stacey, you should ask the kfo forum to design a new message icon (for you). Maybe something like a little brown triangle with bull horns.

BeiTangLang

03-18-2002, 11:32 AM

kriss, please stick with topics & not person-bashing.
Thank you,
BTL

PaulLin

03-18-2002, 12:16 PM

Well once I have heard a story about the legendary animal called "Chi Lin". It was kind like lion but with scales, dear horns, hooves. The emperor want to see one but no one can find it. So they come up with a idea to use a donkey, covered up with silk cloth, put dear horns on it , and cover up with shining gold, silver, broze coins on top of silk. The emperor saw it, kowning that it is just a donkey, but still showing happy and give them price. Emperor's wife ask him why give price to fake "Chi Lin". Emperor replied that yet, if you took all the fancy fakes off it, it is merely a donkey, but that is the best they can come up with and that is why I am the emperor and they are not. I couldn't come up with a Chi Lin also. If any one of them can, I am no longer the Emperor.

I know there are many out there who has fancy out sides, but if you took them away, they will have nothing left.

If practicing foundation moves, in case one achieved super high level, one should not talk about how super they can do the foundations. One should talk about what came after it. There is a lot of advanced skills can only be correctly applied by achieving the foundations to certain level. It is like a caterpillar grow so large but never change into a butterfly, it is not normal nor realistic.

EARTH DRAGON

03-18-2002, 04:19 PM

I am responding to the part of sifu test requirements. Tainan yes it was me who posted them a while back , and iu can asure i have no reason to lie, nor do I very rarely ever that just how I am. but here is the teast requirements.

physical Fitness
30,000 punches. total (however even though stacey lies quite
a bit there is no time limit)

iron body training 3
1,000 frog jumps
4,000 fighting stance jumps
400 snake walks
1,200 jumping duck walks
100 fingertip whell barrow push ups
200 bridge push ups
75 hand stand push ups
500 situps
100 left and right single knee bends
50-300lbs lift drills

8 endurance stances 8 minutes each
5 sets plus applications

this test has NO time limit you can take as long as you want in reason.... I did my punches and everything else in sets of 10 or 100 and then rested for a few minutes. the whole knowledge part took 6 hours.not including the Physical Fitness which nearly killed me but please remember this is part of a ongoing building platue just like weight lifting you never start heavy you work into it.
It is also a cumlative test so you are required to perform everything below this level for the knowledge part of the test ie 40 throws, all applications, joint locks, sets , the 8's, the body cordinations and so on.

While it may be extreme to some becomming a sifu is meant to have high standards. And should not be easily obtained. any one can earn a BB in tae kwon do for thier tets are rediculously easy, but compare the amount of B.B to sifu's in the world........

Stacey

03-18-2002, 05:43 PM

How can anyone who does so much meditation carry around such a big ego.

Yes there is a time limit. No, you don't have any clue about the acmaf. 10 years ago you did, well guess what...things change. I haven't lied about the physical requirements. Just because you couldn't hack it if you did it today isn't my problem. Probably it was people like you that made them want to weed out the weaker links. Makes sense to me. From what I have heard the training has a 90 percent dropout rate. I very much doubt you could do it under current standards.

Does it feel good to be a half baked Sifu? Why isn't your name on www.8step.com? You keep saying that you don't pay. If I am a Senior in college on internship and suddenly fall off the earth. Am I a professor? No, I'm a "might have been" Just like you. Well your not up to date on anything either, your not learning and you have been stagnating for a long time. Your school feels it, you feel it. All you are is a personality on this forum....oh and your own forum. Its really sad. So close, but so far. Its always the weaker ones that have to stab from behind.

Kinda like Paul Lin telling us everything that he would never say in front of Grandmaster Sun. He'd **** himself first.

The fact that neither of you have 1/100 the class of Tainan is a shame. I group myself with you two, because I don't either. I failed 4th grade testing, so I'm not much better than you ED. And I'm the internet transvestite. We're two of a kind you and me. Bottom of the barrell losers who pathetically try to feed our egos. We are the men/women in the iron mask. Only your the Leo Di Caprio version and I'm the Scrooge Mcduck version. HAHA your the women. Then again...I'm the duck.

So a duck walks into a bar and olders a drink. The bartender says, "Thats the most amazing thing I've ever seen." "Tell me something about yourself" Well, says the duck, "I work construction down the street."
FANTASTIC!, says the bartender, "Hey you could work at the circus."

The circus? says the duck, what would the circus want with a bricklayer?!?

ED/Paul Lin- Don't take life so seriously. Smoke a joint...shed some jing or something. Geez.

PaulLin

03-18-2002, 06:16 PM

Young people like you knows only so little and think they are invincible. The main different between you and ED is experience and maturity. We don't have much life time to waste. You don't either, but you just don't see that.

Stacey

03-18-2002, 08:57 PM

your right, if I were wiser I would write bad about people on an internet forum that they do not visit because I am too afraid of them in real life.

EARTH DRAGON

03-18-2002, 09:40 PM

In response to your post I would like to know if thier is a time limit what could it be? as yegor posted you would have to do 8 pushups per second. If their is a time limit you would have to do 500 punches per minute for a hour continuously.

I believe this is impossible even for you. However I am a sifu in 8 step and you are not. So please dont speak of something that you yourself have not obtained. It is easy for a person to say they can beat up mike tyson without really fightng him. So talk is cheap!

My name is on the 8step.com under news and avents remember I taught a seminar at YOUR SCHOOL. I am on the inactive list simply beciuse I fail to see the reason to pay 1,200 just to be included and lied to in shyun's games. It has been publicly proved that he is not what he claims to be so I actually dont mind to be inactive and 1,200 richer.

I am nothing like you, I have many freinds good students and a happy outlook on life.. I dont get mad when someone proves me wrong unlike yourself. I would just like to say that being a student in martial arts is more than just learning to fight for it seems that you have done that right... its about learning about your self and how to treat others as you would like to be treated.

I would hop ethat you can better yourself through your training and learn about who you are and why you are , then and only then will you become a true martial artistartist......................your friend Earth Dragon

flem

03-18-2002, 10:15 PM

sifu tests?

why are there tests. it seems to me that after so many years of teaching someone a sifu would be confident in their own teachings- that they have trained their student to handle whatever test they can devise and since they have seen them (the student) everyday for years, they know what they know, and how well- seems like a money making scam and nothing besides.

Robbie

03-19-2002, 07:57 AM

ED
"I am on the inactive list simply beciuse I fail to see the reason to pay 1,200 just to be included and lied to in shyun's games. It has been publicly proved that he is not what he claims to be so I actually dont mind to be inactive and 1,200 richer. "

You claim that Master Sun is a nobody in 8step, and doesn't know what he says. You don't claim to have learned 8step from anyone else. So why do you claim to teach 8step? If you learn bull**** from a phony teacher, but make people pay you to learn the same stuff doesn't that make you a fraud?

BeiTangLang

03-19-2002, 08:19 AM

Come on guys/gals/what-evers. Back to the topic. Write each other nasty notes if you wish, but do not aire ditry laundry here.
Respectfully,
BTL

Ye Gor

03-19-2002, 10:59 AM

ok, beitanglang, I'll try to steer this back to the topic.
What's it take to be a sifu?
How about: spending less time on this forum? (more time on your ma?)

Mantis9

03-19-2002, 11:20 AM

I am not a sifu, so take this as my process in thinking, not an absolute statement.

I believe that becoming a sifu should entail experience within the style (10 years sounds about right) and that physical ability is also an important criteria. But I also think that the making of a sifu is at the descretion of your sifu. If he/she thinks your ready in two months then so be it.

I am not concerned with the legitimacy of a sifu, though I am concern with his ethic. Good sifu makes good sifu, that just simply shows through. If I know them as conscience as a sifu, then I know that they will be striving to be a good sifu if they are already or if they're on their way.

Test or no test. Skill or no skill. The conscience person wish to become a good sifu he/she will know and so will their sifu.

BeiTangLang

03-19-2002, 11:53 AM

"I am not concerned with the legitimacy of a sifu, though I am concern with his ethic. Good sifu makes good sifu, that just simply shows through. If I know them as conscience as a sifu, then I know that they will be striving to be a good sifu if they are already or if they're on their way. "

Really? You do not care if a sifu is legit or not? Interesting.
Also,...I tought ethics was a seperate class. If an adult does not have ethics to begine with, I doubt he will learn them in a Mantis class.
Should they teach religion too?

"Test or no test. Skill or no skill. The conscience person wish to become a good sifu he/she will know and so will their sifu."

So,...lets say, someone that knows no forms or techniques comes in & your Sifu gives the guy a gold/black/whatever sash & says he's a sifu; You're going to study under the guy?

Mantis9

03-19-2002, 12:01 PM

I thought you might say that.

Here my point: a conscience and ethical sifu would not say such a thing. A good sifu would, by his ethics, make sure that the man or woman he said you would train under would be qualified. That he would be legitimate.

By simply striving to be a good and conscience person, legitimacy, quality and quantity of knowledge would always been under your review. Therefore, a consciences and ethical sifu can not do such things

BeiTangLang

03-19-2002, 12:57 PM

A reply I was hoping for Hehehe.

Stacey

03-19-2002, 01:06 PM

No one has "proven" Master Sun is a fraud. In fact his ability speaks for itself. A few embittered students have made claims and shown pictures of Master Wei and themselves together. How does that prove anything? I mean on your web site you have a picture of you with your arm around master sun, and your not a head deciple, you left the system.

If Master Sun is worthless then, as a student, you would be even less. I saw on your web site that some students of yours did well at tournaments. So I doubt that you are so horrible.

as for the time limits. Yes it is 500 a minute. To be able to do this, you must understand punching with steady speed and not quik spurts. Its rather like riding a bike, you get the internal mechanics and keep relaxed, you can just go. This is how good Sifus are made in just a few years. I don't know how things were when you were learning, from what I hear it was not an efficient way to learn. Well I thank you for being that first pancake that gets burnt, but things today are nothing like you remember. Maybe the stove was too hot, and there wasn't much oil on the pan, but when the "hard stuff" is first getting opened up it takes some adjusting. The adjustmnets have been made and things getting better from what I have seen. I still think they are too hard, but nothing good comes easilly. Now students are getting better, faster with hard work and improved teaching methods.

call me a liar if you want, I'm just a lowly internet transvestite and you are a Sifu, but from my perspective and those I have trained with, this is now. All the other Sifus seem to be getting their money's worth with the Sifu/Medical camps. Otherwise, they wouldn't do it. Every time my Sifu(who will remain nameless) comes back he's even more impossible to beat. I keep thinking I will catch up and then he rockets ahead. Before It was me trying to block everything and guess which angle he'd come in at, but now everywhere I hit I can't land anything with substance and am quickly uprooted. For me, thats what I want to be doing, thats where I want to be.

SaMantis

03-19-2002, 02:12 PM

Jumping back to flem's statement -- not bashing, I just wanted to put in my perspective.

Sifu testing is like testing at any educational institution -- the potential (or continuing) sifu must meet the school's established standard for instructors.

A comparison would be earning a master's degree at college: just satisfactorily passing the required courses isn't enough. You must produce a body of work and submit to an on-the-spot examination to prove you have the knowledge and experience to back up your work.

Standardized sifu testing:

1. "Sets the bar" for those hoping to teach CMA, so they strive toward a goal;
2. Lets new/potential students know that everyone running a school in that system meets an acknowledged professional standard.

Most Americans looking to learn martial arts have no idea who to look for or where to start. Having a list of "certified" instructors for a certain system helps.

Of course, there are negatives. The "gold standard" for one system may be much higher, or completely different, than the standard for another. (Kung fu vs. Tae Kwon Do) And instructors who are certified sometimes break off from the system, even though their standards are just as good.

This same problem exists outside the martial arts, but it's not as endemic in public education because of national accreditation standards, etc. -- as well as, people will spend far more time looking for a good college or trade school than they will on looking for a good MA system.

That's my nickel. :)

Mantis9

03-19-2002, 03:03 PM

I think you have a good point. The criteria of MA's greatly very between styles, systems, and lineages. I, myself, have been tested by my sifu on several occasions in a very formal setting.

The good side to a sifu test is that it is something to shoot for or to deter those that only wish to have fun and meet with others. Also, it is something that one can use to mark their improvement.

Do you think that a universal standard should be set for MA? Sort of a registry? Or do you think that's a bad idea and MA should remain more compartmentalized (ie sifus set their own standards)?

SaMantis

03-19-2002, 05:41 PM

Right now I'd be against a universal standard, because there are so many styles out there. Standardizing MA might lead to something like the PRC's "approved" wushu sets.

Then again, there was that early-20th-century get-together at the Chinwoo school, when several masters met to develop a standardized format, yet retained their traditional styles as well.

Maybe there's a compromise, somewhere.

Stacey

03-19-2002, 08:49 PM

They had those rooms with booby traps. I think it should be hard and it should be the same, that way every Sifu will have a special link and can respect each other based on a common experience. I also think that its a good idea to say hold a horse stance for 10 minutes with weight, because if you can, then you understand something of the internal, breathing, mental endurance/ detatchment from the body etc. I'm not a Sifu, but my tests so far have been the same as my kung fu brothers, they can help me out and tell me what to train for and think about in order to understand. I don't think any body can standardize kung fu as a whole. Every style can govern themselves, every school will try to be their best, and every student can hope to meet the goals or the school in order to become a Sifu.

Yes, you can be against it, but it can never get big. Centralization is the only way France ever won a war. Thats why TKD is huge.

SaMantis

03-19-2002, 10:19 PM

Booby traps -- good idea! A pit filled with stakes will separate the serious candidates from the goof-offs. :D

It's true, not being part of a standardized system means an art probably won't get very big ... but then, how big do you want your system to get? (hypothetical question).

PaulLin

03-20-2002, 11:46 AM

Sifu test is made for who? really, by the time your regular training is done, if your sifu can't tell you are at a sifu level, then he/she is not qualified to be one. I think the test can only make a students himself to have self confidence to think he/she is a sifu. Then again, I don't like the idea of depending on people to tell you who you are at a high level as sifu's level, you should be able to refere to the universal truth on your own to have self confidence on your own level when you are advanced enough.

MightyB

03-20-2002, 12:50 PM

I find this thread disturbing! I didn't know that such a thing went on in "traditional" CMA let alone Mantis styles.

Mantis9 and Paul Lin, I agree with you two.

I have two very dedicated Sihing that have been studying 7 Star exclusively for over 10 years. I admire them both for their amazing skill and they easily outclass many "Sifus" of other styles, yet they both don't call themselves Sifu. Sifu isn't a title that you can buy, it's something you earn. And guess what, you and your school don't decide if you're a sifu, it's how the real CMA community perceives you based on your ability to demonstrate martial skill. If you have a real Sifu, he can let you know where your abilities are, but, most importantly, you know deep down where you're at in the system and a couple of years and some Marine Corps drilling don't make you a Sifu.

Hua Lin Laoshi

03-20-2002, 02:18 PM

I think we're all looking at this with a different angle. In Wah Lum, the Sifu test is to certify someone to teach the system. To remain in the system each certified Sifu must pass this test every few years. This is meant to keep the quality at an acceptable level.

PaulLin
If you're training with your Sifu on a regular basis then obviously he should know your abilities but what of your students half way across the country that are teaching others? Do you just trust that they are staying in shape and keeping up with their material? Since those schools reflect on you wouldn't you want to make sure the quality of instruction meets your requirements?

MightyB
Can those Sihings just walk out the door and open a branch school? Do they need permission to open a branch school first? If yes then wouldn't it help to have that in writing (certification)? Would your Sifu trust them to always be as good (or better) as when they first left and to not forget anything they learned? Especially since the name of his school is associated with their schools?

MightyB

03-20-2002, 02:44 PM

"Can those Sihings just walk out the door and open a branch school?"

Yes they could.

"Do they need permission to open a branch school first?"

Of course they would need permission, it's a very traditional school, you don't do anything related to MA without your instructor's consent. You should know that.

"If yes then wouldn't it help to have that in writing (certification)?"

The instructor's consent is all you need. A piece of paper is-- well-- very American. Out of respect, you wouldn't open a school without permission first. You need to know your lineage for when people ask--- especially when other Sifu would ask. Your lineage has to be verifiable, and that's done with verbal communication. Paper is paper and anybody can make a diploma. The real people always seem to know who's who and where they learned from. The traditional CMA community is pretty closed knit in America. Besides, demonstratable skill is the biggest factor.

"Would your Sifu trust them to always be as good (or better) as when they first left and to not forget anything they learned? Especially since the name of his school is associated with their schools?"

Of Course. (My Sihing are way more skilled than most of the so called sifu out there).

PaulLin

03-20-2002, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
(I think we're all looking at this with a different angle. In Wah Lum, the Sifu test is to certify someone to teach the system. To remain in the system each certified Sifu must pass this test every few years. This is meant to keep the quality at an acceptable level.

PaulLin
If you're training with your Sifu on a regular basis then obviously he should know your abilities but what of your students half way across the country that are teaching others?)

That is why I propose the natural way of training rather than force them to be a sifu. If the arts is not a part of the life of a student, he will need to be check on. But if life and arts are one, as long as he lived, you can count on him no matter any where or any time. That is the way espectially for internal arts.

Do you just trust that they are staying in shape and keeping up with their material? Since those schools reflect on you wouldn't you want to make sure the quality of instruction meets your requirements?

The way I do it is to intruduce the student to the universal truth and not to create a personal trade. If any student out there that changed his life around, that is his own choice and his own fate. Usually if a student is totally harmonized with the art, he/she may developed some thing that the original teacher didn't have. Tao will act differently up on each people in different environments. We will all be on advantage on different sides according to our personality and environment.

This may very well be different and unknow to some one came out of bigger orginization, since there are so many political rule to keep the orginization's growing in countroll. But I personally not interested in that at all, I want to put arts into people's life, not to put people into a kungfu organization.

MightyB

03-21-2002, 08:55 AM

I'm not totally against checking a student's (prospective sifu)
knowledge periodically. I guess you could call that testing.

What I disagree with are these "Be a Sifu in Two Years" programs.

It sounds like they focus on Hei Gung, Forms, and Applications. That's all great and you need that to be effective in the style as a youngster. But, the higher level stuff only comes through experience, and I'm talking 10 years or more. What I mean by higher level is the hard to describe aspects of kung fu. The sensitivity that you gain, and the ability to be "soft" or more internal in your applications. The "sensitivity" is where you can feel through your forearms and you use your senses to anticipate what's going on in a fight or confrontation. You know when you're f**ked, and you know when you got the other guy beat. Also, the "soft"/internal part of the art is tremendously difficult to learn. It's something that you can't even realize until about the 6th year of practice with a good Sifu, and then you only know that you're not doing it right and that you will have to dedicate the rest of your life to perfect it.

All of the physical stuff that you guys describe is great to be able to do, but when you really know kung fu, you don't need it.

Think about watching master demos. Hasn't anybody else noticed that some masters have a pop, or a certain quality about how they demonstrate forms that other masters don't. That takes time, a lot of time.

The B

Mantis9

03-21-2002, 01:20 PM

I would just like to say that I have really enjoyed reading and posting in this thread. I have taken a lot away from it. I have come to ask myself new questions about my training and my priviledge to train under my Sifu. He must have a thousand little questions that he asks himself while watching his students.

Here is what I have absorbed from this conversation:

Becoming a sifu is a processes that is never complete;even well after you a ceremonially, officially, and legitimately called a "sifu."

We all know that it takes time, patience, and a great deal of effort to accomplish this worthy goal.

Understanding of one's art and burden to his/her Predecessors is a must, so we may honor their efforts.

And before you get the piece of paper, you should know that it represent to the world what you already know about yourself.

-------------

My Sifu told me that he didn't run his students through test to find out if they knew Praying Mantis. He already knew that. He tested us so that we knew it. And he pushed us so that we made it our own.

(Excuse me, I need to wipe the tears my eyes. Anyone got a hanky.)

--------------

Mantis9

03-21-2002, 01:20 PM