Sifu trainee programs

[BeiTangLang]

I am curious as to what these are as opposed to regular training programs?

Is it more quantity or quality they get by taking the STP over regular training?

How long to becoming a sifu under these programs?

How many schools use this & what kind of results have been seen?

Thanks in advance for a valuable & non-hostile conversation here.
Best wishes,
BTL

[baldmantiz]

i think that there is more sharing of information to a shrfu trainee since the shrfu training him/her feels that the trainee has an actual desire to keep passing on the knowledge, open a school, etc.
8 step does have a shrfu training program, but i think it has changed since i last got my information about it soim not sure how long it takes, etc.

[Stacey]

I was in it. Its too hard. Too much information, too much work outs, too much leg work. To really succeed you have to make it completely your life, with little else. I decided on a normal life, in which I wasn't always hurting. I've seen it do great things for people, but you have to be a masochist to do it. I finally realized, "what do I have to prove?" "Why am I doing this?" I think people who get into it must have some sort of inferiority complex. All I can remember is pain soaking into my body along with dit ta jow. Bone on bone, slapped skin and the feeling like I was gonna puke. You learn a lot, but unless your gonna be a professional, I really don't see the point.

[EARTH DRAGON]

If you are speaking about james shyun 8 step. He has devised what he calls a "sifu" program. You learn everything at a accelerated rate. You attend 2 sifu camps and cover the medical and tai chi and you get your rank. Heres the catch.. it costs 5,000.

While I was not a fan of this idea when he thought about it in the late 90's he formed it anyway, and then told us that we had to elect 1 student from each school to enroll in the sifu program. I honestly told my highest ranking student andrew not to join and that I thought it was not worth the money I told him I would teach him the same thing for free!
I just thought it sounded like a money making scam like the black belt programs that gaurntee you a BB in just one year. 3 schools in my area have this program and it is a bunch of crap! I am a good teacher and care only about my students. If my rent is paid and I have electric and heat I am happy. My profiet lies in teaching and sharing my knowledge with my students not in their pocket books..........

[PaulLin]

I agree, Fast built are American's way. All business want to earn money will develop some fast way to attract the people who have not understand the subject and have little patient. There is no short cut in Martial Art achievements and it is a life long learning. It is best to learn naturally through every sencond of your daily life rather than special programs.

A lot of Martial Artists can't perform their applications as the way they did in practice, that is because their practice is not natural. If they are just doing another daily activaty when applying arts, they will not have that problem.

[BeiTangLang]

No, I was asking about no one in particular, but thank you for the information & your insight.
You are on track with my thoughts about the "Black-Belt" program bit though. That was & is concern of mine in the new M/A world here in the states. I don't want what happened to several other arts happen to mantis.
THNX,
BTL

[PaulLin]

I think the best class for students learning is that students don't do drills in class time.

I think class time is most efficient used in correcting and sharing. You can show how you drill or react in application and get correction and share common and experiences form shifu and others. Drill should be done on your own time.

Also, in a class, the students are not the only one who are learning, the shifu also will learn some thing form teaching.

I think it is that many shifus used drills to fill the class time so that they can keep students in course longer and fulfill their financial needs.

[spiralstair]

Drills take the place of loyalty and patience.

Most students in the West are used to being 'entertained' in all aspects of their lives. Overwhelming choice in TV channels, restaurants, shoes, cars, clubs...etc produces a person who has little loyalty and is unlikely to 'stick with' any particular thing.

Drills are a Western Sifu's technique in keeping this type of student, because they think if they have done a 'lot' of different things in class they must have 'had a good class'.
Try showing them a part of a form and then saying, "research it, find some applications", then walking away for a bit. One month later they'll be down the street with the guy who runs 'a better workout'.

The arrogant answer is 'let 'em go, I just want the guys who are serious about learning'. Cool, if you want to teach in your garage. Many do not, so what to do in these 'modern' times?
Include some drills. Keep a large school, and watch for the 'diamonds' among the coal.

[isol8d]

I'm confused about how you are classifying 'Drills'.

By this do you mean bag work, pad work or line drills?

General consensus that I get from the people I train with, is that we enjoy working on forms more than body conditioning or bag work.

Exept for the sparring class.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Drills, we have 8 different punches, striaght , back , wheel, hook ans so on. On various days we drill them continuously like 1, 000 of each or 3, 000 of each. by having each student count of in 10's

While you cannot drill every class it will get monotonous. I like to break it up with other warm ups like frog jumps, 2 minute rounds, and endurance stance training.

I thik that in group class you need to work or drill as a class first to warm up and second to feel like a group. this usually takes about 1/2 to 45 minutes then we spend that next hour working on aplication, throws, 8's etc.

The only time I dont drill is my 1 day a week private classes. The reason for this is I cant see being paid for privates and making the student stand in horse and throw punches for the first half of class.

I have noticed that if I dont make them drill in class they will not stand in their home in horse and throw 3,000 that has been proven to me too many times. I also see my privates struggling with wind and endurance when I pop quiz their punching skills. Then I say are you doing these on your own time? they say not really or not as much as I should. So I think that you have to instill drills into your class time becuse 9 out of 10 students will not take the time to do it out of clss........

[PaulLin]

I see what your points now. I guess my opinion is only on the advanced few, not fit the general public as in beginner's level. I forget how beginner will think since I began Martial Arts very young.

To standing in circle, have all students count to 10 for doing the drill is what exactly GM Chang in Shuai Chiao doing more then 40 years. Ask any Shuai Chiao masters form GM Chang, they will surely remembers that and they probably doing that for their own students.

There is Pro. Chi-Hsiu D.(Daniel) Weng, Ph.D., a Shuai Chiao student form GM Chang. His tape's info: TC Media. Phone# 1-800-824-2433. Item# TC-DW010. If you want to find out more in Shuai Chiao, that can get you start. David Lin's tape is better than his, but it is called ZhanChiao(battle wrestling) instead of regular ShuaiChiao. I haven't has the info yet.

[PaulLin]

I really don't get why frog jump was so much of a big deal. Forg jump is well known in TW ever since the birth of the Republic of China. It is used to punish the students in elementary, Jr. High, and high school for bad performance or broken rule. In TW, I never heard frog jump was put in any kind of Martial Art training. I have only heard that people complain that the forg jumps punishments damaged the leg bone structure of students.

Before my belly was too big in my way, I used to do Yin Ji Tui, which is to rise up one leg in harizontal, use the other leg to lower your body till your knee touched chest and then stood back up again straight without fall or change the position of lefted leg. The arms can be rised in front for balance or thinner people will have it on the side the body in shoulder high. I can do 10 of that on each leg, as in walking, left then right, back then. But now I can't get my balance to do it since my belly is in the way. My father told me that one of his kungfu brother used to walk one lap of the track field in my father's high school with it. I couldn't believe it.

I think Yin Ji Tui is more fit to be trained in Martial Art then the frog jump.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Wah Lum has an Instructor Training program for anyone planning on opening a school. There is a separate class once a week for Instructors. During regular class Instructors either assist and are given a small group after warm up exercises or leads the class.

PaulLin
You're describing the Tam Tui exercise commonly practiced at all the Wah Lum schools. We don't do any frog jumps.

[yu shan]

PaulLin

Thank you for your quality insight, as usual. Excuse my ignorance, but what does Yin Ji mean? Have you ever tried this same exer. out to the side? Like dropping down, do a low side kick out to side, then come up, repeat?

Hua Lin Laoshi

Hope you have been practicing your tam tui`s on soup cans! Front and side. I would do v-8 juice cans if you can, for your upcoming test I mean. Good luck! Remember strong basics, and SHOW him the form.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

yu shan
I hear it changes everytime. Maybe I'll be walking the length of a flourescent tube, who knows? :D Actually he tested our hand forms a couple months back to see if we're ready for the Sifu test. Kind of a pre-test. Ah, the joys of training at the Temple. You show up one night and find out he's testing all the instructors.

How did you become a Sifu? Professional Student training, Sifu Program?

Anyone here go through a Sifu Training program?

[SaMantis]

ouch ... tam tui on a soup can :eek: I can't do a complete tam tui yet!

just to touch back on drills ... I just wanted to put in my perspective as a new student. Warm-up drills (stances, stretching, punching) have both forced me into better shape and shown me what I need to work on at home. Line drills showed me how to pull individual moves out of a form and work on them, to see the move in a different light.

And of course there's the motivation from working with a group (maybe the #1 selling point to Americans?).

Anyway, those things are why in-class drills have been beneficial to me as a beginner. I can see why they might not have the same effect with advanced students. Thanks for reading my silly take on it. :)

[PaulLin]

Yeap, as I see that the purpose of sifu program is different in all schools. As long as it didn't try to make a fast-made sifu(like instant noodle) and brain wash students, I think that is fine. Then again, I think it will take an average of 10 years to make a real sifu.

[PaulLin]

Ying Jie Tui(yin ji) Ying (suppostly or respond) Jie (catch or continue) Tui (leg) is one of the 8 movements called Ba Da Jin Gang. My father saw Chian Ji Chuang practiced all 8 of them with each one a lap over the trackfield. His master is Wong Ming Chiue. Wong's master is KunBao Ten, who's son was killed in a fight with Jiang Huwa Long's son. Chian often come to the park and play around with GM Wei's students but have never meet GM Wei face to face. I think many GM Wei's students will remember him.

[cha kuen]

it's marketing and $$$, that's what it issss...

[Taz]

I believe one has to research the sifu program extensively. You need to know the level of proficiency that is required of you so you can be successful in the program. Be wary of time frame answers of when you will become a sifu. Make sure the program offers additional training for professional students and not the same training offered to the other students. Be wary of paying more for monthly tuition and recieving the same training and time with your sifu. Periodic evaluation of your skills from your sifu and a training regiment to meet your goals should be done for each student. It should be individualized- improving weaknesses, and further development of your strengths.
In some programs, the student signs a contract regarding the exclusivity of training others without permission. A similar contract needs to be fulfilled by the sifu to his students that you are getting the training and the results (provided you're commited) you expected. After you become a sifu will opportunites be available to open a school or a club. Will you have your sifu's support and your system's support.
Some final thoughts, the sifu should assess each candidate on all levels to choose a student who can then be successful. If they have no standard to choose from, then many students will be unsuccessful in this pursuit. I think it would be best to be honest with the student so they can make a cognitive choice on this journey. You can still enjoy training without taking on additional responsibilities to becoming a sifu.

[Stacey]

well said taz.

In my school, it was by invitation only, some people wanted to, but Sifu said no. He was looking for some things. I got turned down until I had a better base and learned how to endure and eat bitter.

[cha kuen]

Program is spelled " P R O G R A M"

i don't like that word.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

And your Sifu doesn't "program" you to fight when he teaches you Kung Fu? You aren't "programming" your body when you practice?

[yu shan]

Hua Lin

Professional student under AD, which spilled over to the Temple. But my best WL training was with my older Kung Fu brother Leroy Kautz. AD brought the best out in me, but Leroy made me a Shr Fu, I would not have been able to pass the test without all of the hours of sweat and guidance of my older brother. I must also give alot of credit to SC, who taught me the advanced WL forms and lion dance. In my WL career, I feel very blessed to have had such mentors. But you Hua Lin, are surrounded also with deep talent, Tu, Mimi, Big Mike! You will have countless stories to tell your students.

YS

[cha kuen]

Hi . I want to be accepted as a student. I want to learn kung fu, to get good. I'll train hard .

sifu says, " why do you want to learn kung fu? Come here tomrow at 7pm"

Hi . I want to be a sifu.

SIfu says, " okay come here at 7pm ."

yeah master program you'll learn more, faster? haha whatever. bull****.

[PaulLin]

I think there is different in teaching kungfu wide or teach deep. I have always been in the deep side. If students wouldn't drill and practicing on their own time, we will considered they are not ready mentally for sifu level. We never put them in class or program that make them do these. In result, we can only teach a few people.

I guess if you want to go wide into the general public, then you have be make them do all these. But I think there is different about the reason of practicing kungfu and what kungfu means to the students.

[Stacey]

Olympic training camp vs. After school intramurals.


Work harder, longer hours, get more material, understand it through rigorous practice. This is the key. I passed people of more years, but I put in more time. Time and hard work are key, but more important is the intensity and quality of time you put in. When you are forced past your limits, you will progress very fast, if you go at your own pace, you will be limited.

So what about years. I know blackbelts of 10 years that I beat after 2 in mantis. They never did half of what I did physically, they never put in whole days training myself into mental states associated with vision quests. Say what you want, beleive what you want, but ability speaks for itself.

[PaulLin]

Staycey,

It is no surprice that you can beat 10 years black belt in Karate. Karate and Teakwondo I consider them the most useless. They can go 20 or more years, still not going any where. The most usefull skill among them all are like Jujitzu, judo, kickboxing, Taiboxing, etc.

You can go sparing with some well trained army personals and see how much different you are to them.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Just wondering how or why you can say that karate is useless?

I have met some very good martial artists (not all chinese styles) but to say that they are useless is a great underestamation.

Before I got into CMA I was trained in okinaiwan go ju ryu by one of victor vega's (the father of go ju ryu) top students' and I must say he was an exceptional martial artist ad the best fighter I have ever met.

He had control of his feet like people do with their hands. he was quick as lighting and hit hard. He could also defend with minimal movement.. he would somethimes defend using small cirlces with only one hand. So I would not judge the stlye in such a sweeping generalization.

It is definalty the person who trains the hardest who reigns superior not the style..........

I have also met CMA that cant fight nor have and clue about chi. including the taoist tai chi center close to my school that has over a 100 students that no nothing about chi or the fighting classics in tai chi so one cannot judge simply by assumtion.

[PaulLin]

Well, I can't say I have my GMs' level, but that is what my GM, Wei, Chang, Han, and Wong all agree up on. I have seen some but not all Karate and Teakwondo, as far as I saw, their movements are constantly giving out "gift hands" that we have been told to avoid to do. I have some people who didn't believe this also and brought the movements on to try it. For my 12 years of experiece, I have not yet seen an exception.

And yet, there is many CMA are way off chart and not even competable to Karate and Taekwondo. That is what I am very dissapointed about in todays CMA world.