Warrior Spirit

[red5angel]

I was just reading anothe thread and came across some ideas, that have always intrigued me.
It is funny how we think in the west, about our egos, and about fighting.
For instance, a while back I put up a thread about challenges. There are a lot of people willing to claim that so and so doesnt know what he is talking about, or shouldnt be teaching this or that. These same people seem to be unwilling to back that up, show those people they think are underqualified, that they ARE underqualified?
there is also a lot of crap MA being taught out there by people with little real knowledge, just a few classes for a year or so. They can talk a good game, make it sound like they know what they are doing. I know of two around here. One is a good fighter, but his martial arts needs some serious work, the other, I am not so sure about his fighting ability but his martial arts abliity is unimpressive to say the least. I plan on challenging him when I am up to par on my own ability and am better able to judge his. What happen to the challenge system? It keeps people honest. If you cant do it, you probably shouldnt be teaching it ( a few exceptions like age, and knowledge, but in general you should atleast be adequate at it to teach it effectively.)
All of these organizations? They work sometimes, but not always.
Here is what I think, its fear. Fear of loosing face, of confrontation. too many people are willing to talk a good game, and its easy to criticize when you are behind a keyboard or states or countries away.
In China, and Asia in general, it wasnt uncommon for some challengers to travel great distances to fight, so that they knew the skill was being kept pure. Now a days, when you could fly from one end of this world to another in a few hours!
Why not challenge? they can be freindly, "Hey you teach ______? I do to! Lets put on some pads and spar!" It doesnt have to be this, I am going to kick your azz to show you you dont know what you are talking about.". It can be respectful as well. If they dont like it but accept, then who cares, it is obvious they have enough confidence in thier own ability that they are willing to show up.
I am talking about serious challenges here. For WC, the art I study, I am tired of seeing some of the watered down stuff out there. When I am able to, I will test those around me who wish to teach. whether winning or loosing, I will know whether they shold be teaching or not.
I am serious here people, there is way too much crap in the MMA world and it gives us who are passionate about what we do a bad name.

[Merryprankster]

"Challenge matches" exist all around us they're called "MMA, Vale Tudo, NHB," fights etc.

[JWTAYLOR]

Hell, you don't even have to enter tournaments. LOTS of schools have fight nights and if you can't find one it's easy to form one.

JWT

[Merryprankster]

Yup!

Third Power Kickboxing gym in DC has friday night fights! 12 dollar ring fee, they test your skills on the pads and heavy bag and try to match you with somebody that won't maul you or vice versa.

[red5angel]

Those are different though. Those are people who have enough drive to compete. I am not talking about competeing, am talking about maintaining strength in bloodline. Making sure that al of those fakes out their are weeded out. They dont go to the local fight night because they know they cant fight, not really. for those guys and gals who get out and fight in contest, or fight night, they are not who I am talking about because whether they are good or not, they are willing to test that, openly, and are more then likely improving because of it.
For example, there is this guy who teaches here in mineeapolis. he claims to teach several things, Boxing, JKD, Wing Chun, some other stuff. He has some instructors who are good, and good at what they do, but he likes to sling names around and talk the talk. His skill is unimpressive, he is in it for the money. I am offended that he even claims to teach WC. It bothers me because people who go to him are learning watered down chop suey kung fu. I am not currently able to contend with him, he has studied longer then I and has some advantages on me, right now. when I am capable, I will. I will continue to every 6 months until he either stops saying he is teaching Wing Chun, or chooses to actually learn it thoroughly before claiming to teach it.
You could say that it is to my advantage as all of the people who are learning from him have a disadvantage if they were to fight me, but that is not what I am looking for. I am looking to maintain WC as a sincere, and good fighting art.

[Merryprankster]

Yup,

And wind your ass up in jail.

Those matches that JWT and I were discussing serve the same purpose. If you take some Wing Chun and kick some ass in verifiable, documented tournaments against a variety of ways, then in the future, when you teach, you can point to your victories (and losses, be honest), play the tapes and say "here, what I do works. I can teach it to you."

Now, there is a difference between being a great fighter and a great teacher...but you're catching my drift here---a VERIFIABLE fighting record would serve the same purpose. And then guys that jaw alot don't look so impressive, do they?

[JWTAYLOR]

I hear you. It really sucks to see someone giving your art a bad name, since, in some way, it gives you bad name by association. It sure pi$$es me off when I see some 10th degree American Kenpo Grandmaster that never got any rank higher than a brown belt doing some absolutely stupid sh!t on stage.

But, ultimately, you shouldn't be focusing on them. Focus on YOUR ability, focus on making YOUR school and YOUR students as good as possible. You go to the open rings and open rolls. Eventually, reputation will get out and students will come to you. And you'll make good fighters and good teachers out of them.

JWT

[Merryprankster]

JWT--EXACTLY!

Where is your school? I mean, obviously, in Austin, but where?

[red5angel]

MP - That is a good point, building credibility! As for jail, I am not saying you should go out and make someone fight, of they dont want to, well, there is probably a good reason or that. I say any reasonable MA person who has confidence in thier ability would probably take on a friendly match with someone. Cant see why not.
As for teaching and ability, I agree to some extent. as I said above, some people it is easier to teach then to do, but you should still be able to do well, to teach effectively. It is very very rare for someone to be able to teach something without knowing how to do it themselves very well.

JW - it is a much better way to look at it that you suggest, unfortunately I am the kind of guy who has to jump in to a fight when I see someone getting picked on. The same type that takes personal offense when someone slanders his passion. A weakness of mine admittedly but I would like to apply it to strengthen my art.

[Merryprankster]

Then you apply it by making a name for yourself, by fighting the best available...not by fighting this guy with a big mouth and not much skill.

[JWTAYLOR]

William Cannon and South Congress. But when we moved last year we dropped our Friday Night Fight Night. I still have a pretty much open spar on Saturdays around 1:00pm. But it's not really open to just anyone who walks in off the street since it's not my school and I don't want my instructor liable for any mistakes I make. I want to have trained with or sparred with the person before. As I'm still injured from my wreck, I won't be sparring at all anytime real soon. But you, or anyone else for that matter, is always welcome to come and try out a class and, IF YOU HAVE SOME EXPERIENCE, spar afterward.

That said, the best "open ring" in Austin is now, and has been for quite some time, Tim Kirby's kickboxing school in Round Rock not too terribly far from here. Kirby is a middleweight champ, (don't know what years) and a friggin great fighter. He also hosts a good tournament each year. I haven't been to his open fight in months, but I'm sure it's still a good one. They don't roll (our sparring does) but they have allot more students there to spar than we do and the contact is good.

JWT

[JWTAYLOR]

Oh oh oh oh oh. And Vandry Brazillian Jiu Jitsu (also North Austin/Round Rock) has a Vale Tudo night that is open to anyone. Machado school with a heavy competition emphasis. Good teacher and nice guy as well.

JWT

[Justa Man]

JWT - going off of what you said; but isn't focusing on shutting down the frauds in your system, in a way, showing the respect you have for your system? like, "i love kempo and i'm not gonna let some fraud get away with tainting my martial art's name and rep". that's kind of how i see it.
i'd only challenge a faker if he was teaching the art i study and making it look bad.

[yenhoi]

Unfortunatly laws and guns hamper those of us who dont wish to compete, but at the same time would be willing to beat some guys ass who claims to have skill.

I like the topic of this thread, Warrior spirit is out there, it hasent been lost, but it has been conditioned and caged. This is why there was Hong Kong roof fighters.

I think it is perfectly okay, when you meet someone, and they claim to do this and that - for you to test them (and yourself) by a friendly kung fu challenge.

Again, it unfortunate that life isent like the movies, isent it kool in Drunken Master I when Jackie and the old guy that stole the other yellow package - when they stop fighting they talk to each other and say "Hey you have good Kung Fu."

How cool is that? And if one of them sucked, they would just get thier ass kicked and go on thier way.

[JWTAYLOR]

A "friendly challenge" where both of you agreed I would totally go with. Hell, that's what a fight night/open ring/vale tudo night really is.

But, if he's a faker he's not likely to go for that and now you're back to picking a fight and just looking like an a$$. And you can't help yourself, your instructor, your students, or your system by being know as that jacka$$ that goes around to "peacefull" instructors picking fights.

JWT

[Ryu]

a friendly sparring match isn't a "challenge" A challenge match is "let's see who wins" ;)

Ryu

[Ray Pina]

Don't worry about the fakes, just keep training.

I agree with you though in spirit. I can talk a good game of $hit myself, in that I will call someone out if I think they are full of it. But, the one thing that I have to make clear is that I know I'm nowhere near where I should or could be. That I can be taken out by a number of hard training men, some of them here I'm sure -- this is an international board right? I would at least hope so.

The difference, and what I thought this thread was about, is The Warrior Spirit. So What! You might get me. I might get you. Let's find out and grow together. That's the attittude I have know with my training. I just want to keep seeing and learning. Its the only way.

As for "the fakes", don't sweat them. I'm more concerned with the real guys with low technology. They at least are training hard and fight to win, with pride and style on the line.

Good attitude though. I agree. Just focus on your training.

[Merryprankster]

Exactly JWT!

So your best bet is to work until you succeed in competition... and then encourage (but not necessarily require) that your students compete in the same sorts of venues. Even if all your students don't compete, some will. And some is enough. If you can build a consistent reputation as a "fighting school," you'll be fine.

If enough people did this, eventually "non-competing" schools would be frowned at, instead of encouraging mystical pseudo-MA crap. There will always be people willing to believe... but the fewer, the better.

[Justa Man]

no doubt jwt. great point.

[MASTERMAN]

I didn't know you were in an accident! I've checked into Kenpoworld.com but found no activity... It's good to know your alive and kickin. Bring me up to date when you get a chance.

Peace,

Dave Simmons
Twin Dragon Karate
St. Paul, MN:D

[apoweyn]

red5angel,

does he claim to teach wing chun? or does he claim that wing chun contributed to JKD?

big distinction.


stuart b.

[Mantis9]

Personnally, I think you might want to pick your challenge matches more carefully. There are a lot of people in the world that make unsubsantiated claims that reflect poorly upon a martial art, a religion, a philosophy, a dish soap, etc. Most of the time their own action show true. The world just isn't fair.

Let's say you did fight a challenge match, at your full potential, and you still lost. Would you think this teacher could claim to teach WC? Well, if your assessment of his WC is right, then of course not. But you lost.

I know your passionate about MA, which is wonderful. I do not oppose challenge matches either, but be wise. Martial arts is just as much about honor in retraint as it is about honor in combat.

I am sure you discover the right thing to do, whether its in a challenge match or not.

[apoweyn]

besides, what if he beats you using boxing or JKD? doesn't leave you in a really strong position to say, "well, sure, but you still shouldn't claim to teach wing chun!"

better to educate people so they know what they're getting into.


stuart b.

[Black Jack]

Here is a good website for those interested in warrior spirit, go check out the color code article in the archives, but stop after the color red IMHO, as those were Coopers orignial colors for a alert combative mindset, the goal being to always be in code yellow, check it out, some real good sstuff for the non-sheeple.

www.righteouswarriortemple.org/home.htm

[red5angel]

Ok, a good challenge, does not involve ego. What I mean by this is that if I were to challenge you to prove you knew WC, then I would expect you to use WC. I may not be questioning your ability as a fighter. For instance, you can often twell the level of a wC practitioner just by doing Chi sao (although not always as this can sometimes be overstressed.). If you just wanted to find out if they were a good fighter, well, everythig goes I guess, but thats a different subject.
A freindly challenge match is just that, you arent trying to kill each other, you are testing each others skill. you may get some cuts and bruises, it happens even wearing pads, but the point is the test, not whether you can beat them or not. Remember, some people teach better then they do, an dyou maybe able to do much better then they. Can it be done? If I were going to be in your town, and I knew you were a martial artist, would you accept an oppurtunity to spar with me? Could we shake hands, laugh and tell each other we did good? Would feelings be hurt if I lost, no of course not.
If I lost would that prove I am not good? If you lost would that prove that you are not good? Of course not, but if I have been reasonable about my skill, I know whether I am ready to fight someone. Like I know now that I am not ready to fight the guy locally here who I consider a charlatan. (By the way Ap, he claims to teach both, but I know for WC, he has only taken a few classes, I know this because I am learning under the guy he learned from!)
If I am beaten, I have something to learn from this person right? thats what I am saying, when ego is left at the door, then it can be a learning experience. I definitely dont think you should force someone to fight if they dont want to. I am not talking about being Kung Fu bullies, but like I said, you choose not to fight at all, and you are revealing something about yourself.......

[apoweyn]

well frauds are frauds, certainly. and i'm all for exposing that. but you said it yourself. some people teach better than they do. so if you beat them, what then? will you only challenge people who make false claims? or anyone who isn't your match?

i don't know. again, i respect your passion for your art. but this doesn't seem very realistic to me.


stuart b.

p.s. yes, we could meet and spar without any problems. but i'm not representing a style. just me.

[Merryprankster]

What Ap said--which is why you should build YOUR reputation instead of worrying about the other guy's.

[red5angel]

Well, like all things Ap, nothing is perfect, I hope ot have the foresight to say hey, this guy knows his stuff, he just isnt as good as me, and a good martial artist should be able to do this.
I am not promoting utter chaos here. I am just saying it is getting out of hand. In america especially we have a really bad habit of just saying screw it, what do I care. He is the looser not me. But I care, I care if someone is supposed to be learning self defense and is learning glorified Tae Bo instead. I care if the guy standing next to me claims he learned WC, but when he shows me what he knows most of it is unrecognizable and unfeasible.
america is complacent and we have been lying on our backs long enough.
I have pasison for my art, I am not a psycho by any means. I will always have respect and openmindedness for anyone who stands in front of me, but I am really tired of putting up with crap. We put up with it because we are lazy and we do not care.

[apoweyn]

i guess i just don't understand how this is going to achieve what you want to achieve. do you think you'll enlighten the american public this way? do you think these instructors will pack up shop and stop their charlatan ways? or seek out real wing chun?

what's your thinking beyond this gut reaction that you love wing chun? i think you really need to know that before you start travelling around to schools.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

Well, I dont plan on doing any tours anytime soon ;)
What am I trying to accomplish? Well, basically respect. The american public will do whatever the american public will do. But lets say you are in a school studying. You are new the MAs and in walks this guy. He discusses something with your instructor, and your instructor agrees to say chi sao with him. The guy wipes your instructor all over the floor and then respectfully tells your instructor that he should not be teaching because he has not learned what he needs to teach. The guy is respectful, and doesnt seem to be pulling some sort of macho bull. what do you think? If it were me, at the very least I would look at the backgrounds of each, very closely. Maybe make a few phone calls or emails to do some background checking.
To be honest, it is not a gut reaction for me, I have been thinking about it for a long time. In a perfect world we could have a federation or club that makes sure that instructors know what they are talking about, but it is not perfect. What do we have to loose from it being challenged? IMHO, I learn one of two things, I have the skill I thought I did, or I do not and need to go back to studying.n If the person who 'test' me is respectful and honest about it, it may sting a little but I am only fooling myself if I am not acknowledging my lack of ability.
My hope is any of the things listed. Some will not stop, and for those, sometimes they need to be challenged more then once. Some will come over to the light side and work for what they want. some will stop what they are doing. The point is that the community itself is taking control of its own destiny.

[apoweyn]

well, if i'm wrong, i'm wrong. but i don't see this working. people intrinsically want to believe that they've made smart choices. you best their instructor, and belief preservation suggests that they'll come up with reasons why that doesn't mean anything.

educate them and they'll make their own minds up. they'll reevaluate their teachers on their own recognizance. that seems like a better way to go, to me.


stuart b.

[red5angel]

You are correct, and my main point of impact is the person who is teaching. The students will write off anything they choose, as you say. But the instructor, if he is doing something worng, he will know it.

[apoweyn]

morally or technically wrong?

we all make mistakes in technique. as for moral error, you're going to make those judgments?

[red5angel]

If he is doing something worng morally, he will know it, I will not judge it. If he is doing something technically wrong, because of lack of training and misinformation, then challenging him would be doing someone a favor. Him if he realizes that he has been doing something wrong, or doesnt know enough to be teaching. he may choose to go study harder and stop calling himself a teacher. Someone else may benefit if it comes to light that he was beat in a challange and was found to be a fraud.
Basically Ap, what I am talking about is a fraud. The sort of person who is in it for the money or the prestige and hasn't taken the time to really learn it. We have several here abouts in the karate and WC communities. Alot of people who sort of trained with so and so, later you find out they were not certified to teach, and arent qualified to teach. that is very different from the guy who just doesnt know any better. he probably learned from one of the guys I am talking about!

[yenhoi]

Red:

Lets start a federation or club that does research on WC instructors and provides the info. In the case of fraud, then us club members pile into a van, show up at his place, and 'test' him.

Once we get big enough we can start charging people for the info, for membership on our website, sell t-shirts and pins, etc. If we could somehow figure out a way to charge our 'customers' for thier 'tests' that would be great too.

Im down.

[red5angel]

LMAO! Yenhoi!!!! Really, this whole chop suey WC that has been popping up lately is ****ing me off, can you tell?

[yenhoi]

I was partly serious.

You should make a list of the people who you are concerned are fakes or whatever, and at the very least post it here. Not on the WC forum tho, that will get you massivly flamed and eventually banned by one of the nazi mods. [Shout out WH!]

You could start a crusade against sorry WC teachers, maybe other people will join you.

You should also just generally be keeping a list of people who do or have ****ed you off so that when your WC skills are up-to-date you can go un-**** off yourself.


:D



[the above use of the word crusade was in no way intended to offend anyone of the Muslim faith]:D :D :D

[yenhoi]

ttt

[red5angel]

By the way, what does ttt mean?

Well, to a certain extant I am. Like this guy locally that should in no way be claiming to teach wing chun. When I am at a skill level where I can challenge him, I will. Maybe a few others locally here that probably shouldnt be teaching.
As for people that ****ed me off, well, I would have to quit my full time job!!!! :)

[yenhoi]

"to" "the" "top"

I believe, or

"troll" "troll" "troll"

_


Question: If your skills are not ready to challenge these "frauds" - how can you judge _now_ that they are "frauds"?

Also, how can you seriously expect someone to fight you using "only wing chun" as if when fighting a real fighter would limit himself to certain techniques.

Wing Chun is about fighting, as are most Kung Fu. Just because it has principles that 'dictate' how you should move, its techniques are based on simplicity, centerline, and elbows. You fight, not WC. When you fight, you use your arms and legs, YOUR tools, you dont _use_ WV _on_ your opponent.

I have come full circle, boredom, sillyness, seriousness. I am not attacking you, just finally adding 2 bucks rather then 2 cents.

[red5angel]

I understand what you are saying Yenhoi, I am not easily offended, especially if you are being sincere. I am not trolling by the way, I am serious.
As for judging skill, in this case it is about knowing the persons history. In my area, Minneapolis, there are a few people who claim to teach WC, and who claim to have a history they do not. this to me is unacceptable.
As for skill level, If I am not sure about someones skill, I will touch hands with them, if they are better then me, I will know it, if they are worse then me, I will know it.

this isnt about judging someones fighting skill, this is about someones WC skill, two different but similar things. your tools are much more then your arms and your legs, everyone has those. I do not like the people who claim to have the specific WC tools, especially on a level to teach.

I seriously expect someone to show me they know wing chun.

I think part of the problem is people are picturing this "challenge" as being some sort of bullying thing. there is a time where it could become that if we are not careful. I am not talking about bullying though. I will not force someone to fight me, I will ask. I will also ask questions that tell me what level thier knowledge is. If they prove to be less then what they are, I will make this publicly know, with an open invitation for them to come by anytime and show me they know what they are doing.
Would it bother me if someone did this to me? Hell yes, but because I have been proven a fraud.

[yenhoi]

I wasent calling you a troll, ttt could stand for trolling =D

"WC tools"

What is a WC tool?

Certainly, I would think, WC tools are for use on yourself, not for use 'on' your opponent.

JUst a clarification. I see what your saying about "knowing wing chun" and that you can tell by touching hands.

[red5angel]

The Wc tool srange from specific techniques, such as fuk, pak, lat, etc..... to drills, chi sau, rooting drills, etc.... to ideas, such as relaxation, structure.
Now these are definitely not exclusive to WC, but they can be applied in such a way that it reflects your level of knowledge on WC and how to apply these tools. your tools can also be your arms and your legs but its like looking into a toolbox, some are empty, some have some basic tools, screwdriver, hammer, wrench, etc.. some have more and more tools. Now, you dont apply a single tool to a single problem, they work in concert, to take an engine apart you need several tools, and they may not be applied in the same way twice!