Should Gong Fu stay underground? [Archive]

Water Dragon

03-12-2002, 06:45 PM

the more hardcore schools probably won't have a large following regardless of whether they stay underground or not.

The harder you work, the fewer people show up.

This is my point exactly. If more of these schools came out in the open, only those who would train hard would stay. All of the "secrets" I've been shown have been of the nature of "Practice the hell out of this for months at a time" Even if people wanted to collect that, they wouldn't get it. Too much work.

In that Kung Fu strategy thread, I had a hard, hard time trying to think of examples for people I could recommend as saying "Check this guy out, you'll see what I mean. It's not that they're not out there. There about as common as solid BJJ or boxing. They just choose not to be found. Thoughts?

TaoBoy

03-12-2002, 06:57 PM

Just look at the harder styles. Only a few dedicated students ever make it to the higher ranks. This won't change if a style is massively marketed or relatively unknown - so long as the masters keep true to the style and don't sell it out.

Merryprankster

03-12-2002, 07:08 PM

Well, Water Dragon, I don't know what to tell you. Good BJJ and Boxing are pretty easy to find actually--all the comps help that.

I think what you are looking at is a cultural difference. There has never, in the Judo world, been a hesitancy to share knowledge, and that's where BJJ draws its sportive and training tradition from nor do you have that mentality in boxing. So the good schools in KF are "underground," as you describe it.

I don't think that coming "above ground," would hurt good kung fu at all. Hard work is hard work, whether it's "common knowledge" or not, and only those willing to do it will stick around anyway, underground or not--just as you point out.

The secrecy has created an air of mysticism. What you are asking is that people give that air of mysticism up, in a lot of cases, and show everybody that plain blood and sweat is what it takes to get good. I'm not sure that many people WANT it demystified... they like it the way it is. They don't like getting the crap kicked out of them day in and day out--and I'm talking about the ego abuse of investing in loss--BJJ is a primary example.

I've seen more people than I can count walk through the doors, beat up on the new white belt, think they're tough because they just waxed a guy who is 30 lbs lighter and knows about as much as they do... and then... we never see them again, because that same night, they got their arse handed to them by my girlfriend, or our 48 year old blue belt who only weighs 150, or our 136 lb ex gymnast blue, or in the case of some of the 200 and above guys, me.

Nope... they'd rather stick with going somewhere they feel comfotable, doing things with "hidden meanings," being taught by a "master" with a pot belly who claims to have studied and hold rank in 50 styles, and thinking that, even though they've never taken a punch, and never worked with anybody outside their style, they can fight.

To my mind, that secrecy era should be long gone, at least here in the US. Secrecy my arse. If I pay you for a service, I expect to receive it. All the talk of knowledge being held back turns my stomach. Hard work will scare away the non-hackers and the dabblers.

TaoBoy

03-12-2002, 07:13 PM

Well written, MP!

It's all about hard work.

"To master martial arts, perseverance is the key." (Tao of HSTLKF)

Water Dragon

03-12-2002, 07:14 PM

Agreed on all counts but one. There's a reason for that pot belly. It's a training method known as Iron Body.

Merryprankster

03-12-2002, 07:20 PM

OK.

I will believe you when you tell me that Iron Body creates a pot belly, because I don't know any better.

But if you tell me that a fat, out of shape "master" who studied 50 different arts has iron body... please tell me you were kidding? :)

Water Dragon

03-12-2002, 07:25 PM

No, I'm just saying that the training exists, and that you can verify who's telling the truth.

Chang Style Novice

03-12-2002, 07:26 PM

It's not so difficult to tell a big hard belly from a big soft one. Bulging abdominal muscles have lots of uses, y'know, especially in disciplines where carefully controlled breathing is important.

Braden

03-12-2002, 07:31 PM

There's no secrets in kungfu. It's just a matter of training. There really has never been any secrets. The "secrets" of both taijiquan and baguazhang, considered by many to be the most obscure of the chinese martial arts, were published open source as soon as they were found. You can find them in 15 seconds on a google search.

dre

03-12-2002, 11:02 PM

I agree that KF is much better off "in the closet" than available to the general public. Popularization tends to denigrate the heart of the system ,and reduce it to uselessness.

If someone wants to learn Martial Arts , they can just go to their local Karate or TKD place , I don't see a reason why we MUST go public.

I,myself go to a closed door school in an area where there are NO open KF , or Chinese MA , schools at all. So for all purpouses, we are deep 'underground' here.

Kf is not my first martial art, but I do love it very much , and I don't think the outside world would understand (or want to) the effort and the will that goes into creating a good fighter.

BTW I do 7* Praying Mantis KF. I am also a western Fencer, I have done TKD, Aikido as well.

red_fists

03-12-2002, 11:08 PM

Personally, I don't see it making a real difference in the long run.

Serious students will be serious students and slackers will be slackers.

You also need to ask yourself if Boards like this and your own personal training would be there if everything is hush hush and underground.

As far as I am concerned the Cat is out of the bag and the miau has been heard.
No use putting it back into the bag and pretending it doesn't exist.

dre

03-12-2002, 11:26 PM

You have to agree though , that the difference between closed and open schools, sometimes lies in the fact that the quality and quantity of the education is much ,much higher.

I could go into a comparison of my TKD class and KF ,but I won't. Siffice it to say that one was quality, the other was crap.

High qunantity = low quality
High quality = Low quantity

red_fists

03-12-2002, 11:30 PM

Sorry, I can't agree there.

Nothing is that black & white, you will find extremes no matter what you do.

If what you say is true, we should all be getting private lessons as this way the level will be at it's highest.

red_fists

03-12-2002, 11:35 PM

Hey Dre.

Look at Hsing Yi for example. It was always an open system as it was taught to the Military.

Has the style produced fewer quality fighters than lets say WC, Shao-lin??

Not really, about the same amount of quality teachers/fighters have come forth as from hidden styles.

Leonidas

03-13-2002, 05:27 AM

Actually i dont think the military learned the full Xingyi System if you know what i mean. "Cannon Fodder" doesn't need much h2h training, they need ammo and lots of it. All they really learned was the Five Elements and some drills. Some of them even claimed to teach it after the war. I'm also one for keeping good Kung Fu underground. It'll just turn into another martial sport in a few decades if they dont. Once some instructors get a taste for money they sell out ultra fast. Not all but some. Look what happened to Karate in the main stream. "Stupifying" forms so it'll be easy for school children to perform in there PE classes. Some it is still effective but most of it is so watered down today it looks like Kickboxing.

Chinwoo-er

03-13-2002, 10:47 AM

I think that this is where I come in to make all kinds of irrelevent statements and leave everyone thinking I am some kind of a nut.

I think that there is a certain amount of politics which plays in this. The main thing about "above ground" MA schools is that the chances are, it will expand. And through this, they must be very politically correct in many ways.

(1) In a "secret" training area. The teacher could have a certain degree of bias towards the students. Such as paying more attention to more talented students. and teaching them in a more faster paste. Passing on more advance techniques. But in an open school they must remain politically correct and by completely unbias to all students. This is really frustrating.

(2) Moneywise, in a secret place, the master do not have draw such a distinct differecne between his own account and the school's account. In an opened school, the school's account must be managed well so that the intructor fees, event fees, and the master's own salery is separated.

(3) In a secret school, masters could get the students to do chores for him. In an open school that could very well lead to a law suit.

(4) in a secret school, as master could push the students until they drop. In an open school, this will lead to bad publisity. And you may be forced out of busniess.

I think what is one of the most difference is that in an open school, words spread fast in the MA community. So one must keep up the politically correct persona. MA masters of the old tradition is harsh on their students. And this will put them in a bad light

MonkeySlap Too

03-13-2002, 10:59 AM

Yeah, I am guilty of playing the secrecy card - although I'm sure my students would tell you I'm a ten dollar ***** when it comes to keeping secrets, I just can't hold info back - probably my Judo background.

I beleive in teaching openly, but not to everybody.

My rationale is simple - a student needs to prove to me that they are worth my time, that they are a good person and will train hard.

There are also layers to training. Outside of Shuai Chiao and Judo and things of that sort, most students try to skip the foundation training, annd then are unable to do the more advanced stuff - so there is a progression where I do not want to distract students with more info. But this is true in grappling styles too - it's just the students don't get all doe-y eyed about it.

And while I teach with a cetain progression, there are other teachers with different ones - they might start with my 'advanced' stuff or vice versa. The modern world has opened up more training and learning options than I ever imagined would be out there.

So, yeah, my club is small 'underground' if you will. Yeah we train hard. But we are also social and play well with others. Probably like any good boxing club. The rules are simple, and built on self determination - no cult like behavior here (especially if you saw the ribbing I get from my students, I'm not sure a mcdojo teacher could take it)

On the other hand, I've got to admit I've grown a little chubby the past five years. Responsibilities being what they are, I just don't train three hours a day anymore. But I can and do coach well, and still get an hour in everyday. Hey, even Wang Shu Jin was chubby, and look at Samo Hung and how he can bust a move. I'd be careful on going just on fat content (although I am back on track to lose it in my case) - I still roll until I puke.

Ray Pina

03-13-2002, 11:05 AM

Could Kung Fu be more mainstream? That's the question.

Movies, articles, Jackie Chan, Jet Li, CannanBall Ze (or soemthing), even the power puff girls. Wushu, guys doing kung fu for 1800 collect commercials.

The real deal is what remains udneground. Not even by choice. How many people want to train that way? Why? Just buy a gun or work harder to move to a nice neighborhood.

I would guess that 1 in 10 schools are worth the time and effort -- and that may be generous. So, its more than out there, but the question is: Is what's out there gung fu?

Mostly no.

By the same token I see a recent explosion in mixed martial arts and people wanting to train more realisticly, so that's good. Perhaps martial arts is making a come back. Those here who really say these things must live by it. We are the next generation. No reason why skilss should be deteriorating with each generation. Find a good teacher and lets raise the bar.

Let's put the martial back in Martial Arts. Then we won't be the minority. You drive by a school and look in the window and people are doing something worth while. The stigma of a cracker jack's box black belt will disolve. But these people have done their damage allready -- in the name of money.

Mutant

03-13-2002, 11:44 AM

The image of kung fu might go mainstream, but the actual hardcore training that goes with real kung fu will not, most people are too lazy to go through the blood, sweat and tears that is nessesary for real good kung fu.

So in that sence, a big McKwoon is mutually exclusive to the highest quality training. But remember that even in a big school, there might be an 'underground' or inside school hidden within.

a good kung fu guy probably wouldnt teach the good stuff to just anyone anyway (like monkey-slap was saying).

But I have see horrendous small underground schools too, little cult like groups practicing stuff so rediculous that it has to be underground to remain undebunked. So i don't agree with the hard and fast equation that lowquantity = high quality, even if it isnt a bad rule of thumb.

This is not exclusive to kung fu...anything that is hardcore will not go completely mainstream, even if the image of it does. Even when BJJ or ultimate fighting went mainstream, it was just the image, people renting the movies, playing videogames, or dabbling in a dojo just to say they were involved, but the hardcore groups remain underground....thats why the MMA crowds site is called 'the underground forum' right? When the fads move on, the hardcore groups remain...underground.

I thing Chinese culture keeps a tenatious grip on real CMA anyways, its just not their culture to sell out something that is an intertwined component of their history and culture, unlike some other well known arts.

Water Dragon

03-13-2002, 12:03 PM

Mutant Warrior...
If I look for a BJJ school, boxing gym, Muay Thai gym, I'm pretty confident the training will be solid. Not so for our stuff. Is it the competative/sportive emphasis? I can't say for sure, but I'm beginning to think so. Especially considering some very recent breakthroughs in my Shuai Chiao training.

E-Fist...
You said, We are the next generation. No reason why skilss should be deteriorating with each generation. Find a good teacher and lets raise the bar.

This is dead on. The more people who have access to the training, the more hardcore people will train. These people will come into contact with one another and thus the arts evolved due to exposure between high level practitioners. Who cares if it changes thee arts, they are adapting to the new environment. Much better than stagnation, IMO.

MonkeySlap...
I've seen a few people walk in and out of our basement already. It doesn't matter that they left, it matters that they had an opportunity. My teacher(s) are currently talking about opening schools in the area without selling out. I think that's the way to go. We also are more than happy to integrate anything that works. I bring a little Tui Shou to the game, my teacher has an excellant Long Fist background. His teacher ispursuing BJJ as am I. I say, let those who would train come to us. Unless they can find us, they can't do that. And what are we left with? A bunch of punks that will provide absolutely NO competition for me, which hinders my progress.

Suntzu

03-13-2002, 12:14 PM

good kung fu schools can be underground or aboveground but goog kung fu will always be underground…

I do attend an "above ground" school(they advertise in the yellow pages). I understand the PC aspect Chinwoo-er speaks of, but at the same time a good instrustor can recognize and will push a more advanced and serious student. So they maybe doing the same drill or whatever but the serious student maybe doing it at a higher intensity.

also, look at who stays late and continues to workout and who comes to the after hour sessions, I guess that could also be considered "underground." even some of the most senior students don't show up but in class some of them feel as tho they no it all.

moneywise, I don’t mind paying what I pay and we don't have all those "other fees" thank goodness.

I'm not a "closed door student" yet but I was amazed on a couple of occasions when a couple of the instuctors whom I never met knew me by name… so I guess I'm slowly digging my way underground…

Mutant

03-13-2002, 12:20 PM

Good point WaterDragon.

I agree with what you, EF, MS are saying. I agree that its hard to evolve the art and keep the quality high for our generation if there are few hiqh quality training partners to be found, we can't get better unless we are challenged. If cma people only can train against low quality opponents, that dulls the art and leads to its dilution. And I agree that one would expect high quality training in most of the other venues that you mentioned, but for an outsider trying to find high quality kung fu, good luck (not impossible, but much more difficult)....why is this, I'm not sure...maybe it has to do with the fact that those other arts are well defined and focused, but kung fu is such a broad spectrum that it could be anything...And I do think that it may have to do with the culture...It is kind of confusing (hence the original question) and I've been trying to understand it for a while, all your comments are certainly appreciated and helpful!

MonkeySlap Too

03-13-2002, 12:23 PM

Well, I wouldn't call the group punks...I think little Joe might take offense.

And we will be going public. I have one of our guys working on a web site. I do agree more new blood is needed, and hey you are part of that picture.

On the other hand, I've seen first hand the obnoxious behavior in some MMA gyms - and we can do without that just like we can do without those without the right 'stuff'.

Water Dragon

03-13-2002, 12:34 PM

No, I'm not referring to Lil Joe, he has my utmost respect. I'm not referring to Josh either, yet. I AM referring to the guy who came to the park last summer, made it not even halfway through one class and never showed back up. He had his chance. How many people who would've gone through that hell never had the chance.

Of course we don't need obnoxious people. They change or they leave. If we get one to stay for every ten that check us out, I'm happy. As long as the ten can find us.

MonkeySlap Too

03-13-2002, 12:45 PM

I know, I'm just giving you a hard time.

Most people quit. Frankly, it's hard to maintain a practice.

I'm hoping getting out in the public more will help draw in more prospects, but I'm sure the other coaches on this board will agree - most people, even those with every intention of sticking it out - don't.

But most people who are overly enthusiastic in the beginning always quit.

I guess I'm lucky that most of my key students are still around in one fashion or another - but for each of them there must be twenty others who never made the cut.

Water Dragon

03-13-2002, 01:03 PM

Well, I'm actually hoping to get some of the BJJ guys interested. Let's see what happens after they're introduced to the dragging throw (evil laugh) They've brought in a Muay Thai guy to teach them stand up. I'm sure they'll like Shuai Chiao.

Right now, they can't take me down, but I can't get them either. When I make enough progress to slam them consistently, I'm sure they'll ask about what I do. One or two have already. It's a FRIGGIN' BEAUTIFUL recruiting ground. The good ones really are on the ground. If they can do it, so can we.

MonkeySlap Too

03-13-2002, 01:09 PM

And that's pretty good results for the amount of time in.

The flip side is I had GREAT results the first time I worked with skilled BJJ players - then they LEARNED. Now I'm working on new tricks.

Interestingly enough - I've got Sambo and Bjj players hanging out now. It really does go both ways.

I think this is the great benefit of sportive playing. I am confident of my bladed and 'street' skills. But lets face it, most of the time I'm not out to kill my opponent. Being able to perform reasonably well with sportive skills is important - and I question my fellow teachers who don't get out there and be honest and try things out of thier comfort zone.

This doesn't mean fighting ALL the time. I'm the first to admit that my regular sparring days are over (it's a long story, but I'll pay a LOT less in dental bills if I lay off) - but I still 'play' spar and learn, learn, learn.

Martial arts is fun.

Merryprankster

03-13-2002, 02:10 PM

Water Dragon;

Yes, it IS the sportive training... hands down, 100%. It absolutely is. Affirmative, Ja, Da, Si.

When competition is part of the heredity of the art, the training takes on a sportive aspect...and when it does that, it takes on sportive fire.

Not everybody at my boxing gym competes... but let me tell you, EVERYBODY at my boxing gym trains as if they were trying to learn how to compete! Why? Because "that's how you train for boxing." Same with Judo and BJJ and MT, and, I bet, San Shou.

And then, again, the cultural bias-- Compare the attitude of "traditional," Chinese masters with the attitude of Kano... now, what's an olympic sport, filled with tough competitors who could make you barf your lunch and cause a concussion when they send you screaming through the air?

Here's something else--the rules of Olympic TKD are going to make TKD respectable in a few years, if they stick with them. As I understand it, it's basically full contact kickboxing with more protective gear, but without punches to the head and leg kicks. Points are only awarded for blows which cause a "visible shock," interrupt forward movement, or create backwards movement. So, there will be some holes in their game, just like wrestlers or Judoka, but they are going to get better and better--if they don't revert to light contact garbage.

Here's an irony for you--every person on this forum says that the top notch San Shou competitors are simply badarse...they hold them in the highest respect... and yet, many of them here simultaneously dismiss other ring sports, and EVEN the San Shou competitors as being "not real training," or even "not as effective/difficult/[insert adjective here]" because it's not "traditional." How much flak do the San Shou guys get for using boxing style punches?

Traditional isn't always better. Old isn't always better. Ancient, and/or chinese, and/or "non-sportive," isn't always better. Sometimes, in fact, it's WORSE... but in any event, BETTER is better, regardless of where it came from.

How many people pitched their own little hissy when I started in about Kalari on another thread, spoofing that attitude? The same arguments are always given... my art's older than God, so it MUST be good, we train for real life, not the ring (as though the kwoon has a greater claim to real life than the ring:rolleyes: ), we practice, this type of palm, that type of internal energy, and an ancient type of breathing found in no other style, the founder of the style took on and defeated all comers so it MUST be good, (never mind if you or anybody else can do it...how many of us can box like marciano and be successful?) underground secret SE Asian death matches....

And then, if somebody with traditional training gets pounded by a San Shou guy or something like that you get to hear "it's a difficult art that takes years to master and in 20 years, the practitioner of that style will easily defeat this type of person..." The hidden implication is that sportive training is "the easy way out," and the person who is not doing it is being patient and dedicated and is somehow, sweetly, faintly superior to the *sniff, nose in air* ring artist, because the ring is beneath him.

Give me a match between the average joe who trains in a San Shou school and one who trains non-sportively, with similar levels of fitness and experience, and I'll tell you where my money lies...

Is sportive training necessary to becoming a good fighter? I'd have to say the jury is still out on that.

This post isn’t directed at anybody in particular… and trust me, I’m well aware of the “tough guy,” thing in BJJ or MMA. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been to a tournament where the guys at weigh in walk in with 300 gi patches, and that swagger… and then it turns out they’ve got ZERO skill. There's so much testosterone at most meets, its a wonder the women who attend don't grow beards.

Ok... now, MY little hissy fit is done. :D

Suntzu

03-13-2002, 02:16 PM

yeah… whatz the deal with all them patches???

Water Dragon

03-13-2002, 02:20 PM

Agreed. I think it's also important though to keep the nasty stuff alive. I was shown a variation of a throw on Sunday that made me stop and stand there for about 2 minutes. It took me a while to digest just how nasty the technique was. The thing is, there are other variations of the throw I use (or at least attempt to) in sparring all the time. I don't think we can neglect those aspects.

Perhaps a merging of the new AND the old methods. Example: read up about seven star theory. Start trying to integrate the principle into your boxing.

Merryprankster

03-13-2002, 02:25 PM

You're absolutely right, of course--Muay Thai gyms still teach elbows, even though most fights in the US don't allow them.

The nasty stuff does need to stay alive. BUT, there is only ONE way to do that--Something like the Tony Blauer Tactical suit where you and your partner can both move reasonably well and then beat the crap out of each other... and I personally think it should be supplemental, not the basis for, the way you train. Eye gouges and stuff are nice addenda--but teach body and head control, FIRST.

Now, the Tony Blauer suit doesn't work for every thing (throws that combine jointlocks, for example, but I think you understand what I mean...

I'll read up on seven star as soon as I figure out "boxing." I feel like I've got three feet... and all of them left.

MonkeySlap Too

03-13-2002, 02:34 PM

The thing is the really dangerous stuff SHOULD be reserved for those with good manners. I can pull of an inner leg hook that will probably throw you - or I can pull off an inner leg hook that WILL mess you up for life and put you out of the fight immediately.

A training partner of mine does Sambo and is really into American 'hooking' (no, he does wear a miniskirt), and he's got a similar bag of tricks - a great selection of skills you can train against unwilling competitiors - allowing you to develop tactile confidence, and a bag of tricks that makes you vomit when you think what it could to you.

But you don't going around showing everyone how easy it is to dislocate a hip.

Beleive or not, the only ways to practice some of this is in forms or on apparatus- you can't play it even Blauer style. Which reinforces the importance of the sport version to fill in the gaps of experience.

Unless its me of course. I want everyone to teach me. I'm a nice guy, really...

Merryprankster

03-13-2002, 02:35 PM

As for patches, I don't know what the hell that is. I don't wear any. I think they are tacky.

Knifefighter

03-13-2002, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Agreed on all counts but one. There's a reason for that pot belly. It's a training method known as Iron Body.

What???!!!

Water Dragon

03-13-2002, 02:37 PM

what to what?

taijiquan_student

03-13-2002, 02:46 PM

I don't know anything about iron body, but after a significant amount of time doing taiji, qigong or neigong, or any qi cultivation practice, your dantian gets very large and appears to be something of a potbelly. My teacher has a very noticeable dantian, and his teacher (from seeing his book) has a ridiculous dantian. It sounds weird, but it's true.

Knifefighter

03-13-2002, 02:55 PM

Iron body causes a pot belly???!!!

Water Dragon

03-13-2002, 02:58 PM

Unfortunately yes. At least the method I've been taught. There's another version that involves hitting yourself with sticks (or something like that) I don't know what that does to you.

What I've been shown is basically a bunch of funky looking crunches with "something else" added in.

Black Jack

03-13-2002, 03:04 PM

I just wanted to point out their are "good reasons" and "bad reasons" to train underground, the first being that you do not want to deal with the everyday sheeple who want every thing to be just handed to them on a silver platter, in other words, a adult day-care center for those needing a ego boost, students who have fantasy ideas or immature ideas on streetfighting, students training with a half-ass manner, the goal being to be selective on what students you bring into the long term training, in the hopes of getting students with heart, honesty and good morals.

The "bad reasons" include thought control, physical and mental abuse hidden under the guise of training, those seeking to form a cult-like following, be it or not that what they may be teaching is effective, idol whorship of the teacher and so forth.

I have met those of both schools and even some that fit in-between.

Its not bad to be underground but if what you are teaching is of good caliber and you do not water down your material for the mass public, then those long term students will show their mettle and make the grade, the rest will be just filler, hopefully filler that may have learned something or two in terms of self defense and self perfection, because those are the people who may need it the most.

Just my two irish punts.

Braden

03-13-2002, 03:10 PM

What I've been taught and seen is consistent with what taijiquan_student said. Although I wouldn't say it gets "very large" and it's not exactly a pot belly. If it's large and rubbery, the practitioner is probably tensing his lower abdomen up too much when breathing. However, over the long period these practices certainly make people 'broader' down there; not just the belly, but the hips and stuff a bit as well. Alot of the good neijia guys I've seen are built like trees. Although obviously, the body type you have before training is going to effect what you end up with.

bamboo_ leaf

03-13-2002, 05:58 PM

When the student is ready the teacher will appear.

I think this means that we will tend to find that which we seek. The problem is that many don’t really know what they are seeking and have expectations beyond their abilities or real intentions.

trying something out sometimes called "gut check" always a good way to know if this is really what you want. sometimes the answers are not what is expected.

KF underground, I think if you go to the parks even some places that you would not expect to find it, it may find you. :)

sunstylin

03-14-2002, 05:02 AM

A pot belly is not the sign of hard work or lazyness in Kung-Fu!
It can add as body mass! Acceleration times maas equals power!
Iron body I am not sure about but Iron shirt does not mean a pot belly, it can vary from person to person, and if you look at Yang Mian students you can see this. However I have known Iron shirts to have pot belly's along with other good practitioners it does not mean that they are not serious or do not train hard, they can be fast, relaxed and strong in structure and chi!:) :cool: :)

Merryprankster

03-14-2002, 06:51 AM

Actually, Force=ma

Power is W/t

And since W=Fd

Power = mad/t

But thanks for playing our game! :D

Just a joke folks... I'm feeling kinda punchy this morning... no offense!

Knifefighter

03-14-2002, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by sunstylin
A pot belly is not the sign of hard work or lazyness in Kung-Fu!
It can add as body mass! Acceleration times maas equals power!
I'd rather get my extra mass from muscle mass rather than a pot belly, expecially since the size of the abdominal area is closely related to the risk of heart disease.

Water Dragon

03-14-2002, 01:23 PM

No offense KnifeFighter,
But do you ever plan on contributing anything worthwhile on the boards? If you are doing half of what you claim, you should have some excellant insight. Instead, it seems like you just throw out odd comments every now and then trying to catch someone making a stupid reply.

Black Jack

03-14-2002, 01:35 PM

Water,

Did you check out my seminar post topic? You might be interested.

Water Dragon

03-14-2002, 01:47 PM

Yeah, I checked it out. And yeah, I'm interested. But, no $$$ :(

Black Jack

03-14-2002, 01:51 PM

Sorry man,

Maybe if their is time, we could hook up sometime after and I can show you some of the stuff, that or as seminars go, if they are successfull they will come back aground again, so no worries.

Have a good day. :)

Knifefighter

03-14-2002, 03:18 PM

WD:
Sorry if you were offended by remark. Yes, I am a smart-a$$ sometimes.

My point was two fold: 1)There are better ways to increase your power and force production that by increasing the size of your gut; 2)Increasing abdominal girth has very negative effects on your health.

Water Dragon

03-14-2002, 03:21 PM

OK, I'll buy that. I do wish you'd contribute more though. Especially in regards to weapons.

Knifefighter

03-14-2002, 03:30 PM

WD:
I've been messing with striking and cutting weapons for a long time now, but I have some pretty radical views on things where weapons are concerned. I have found that most people don't want to hear what I have to say about those things, so I usually don't share much of my opinions about them anymore.

Water Dragon

03-14-2002, 03:42 PM

Start a topic, I'm interested. I have a friend who was shot 9 times in the back from point blank range. He's stll alive and you can't tell if he has a shirt on. No limp, no partial paralysis, nothing. That situation goes against conventional wisdom as well.

wu_de36

03-14-2002, 03:58 PM

if kung fu stayed underground, most of our white asses would have never seen it.

Black Jack

03-14-2002, 04:02 PM

Knifefighter,

Start a topic, I would be interested as well, I bet that some of your thoughts would not be radical to everybody, but who knows, at least it will be a good topic.

Cheers.

Shooter

03-14-2002, 04:15 PM

Yeah...I wanna get your thoughts on how grip is dictated by the emotional component in actual attacks by untrained knife-wielding crazies, and how those insights can provide some direction in how to defuse, deter, and arrest the hand...and stuff... :cool:

Shooter

03-14-2002, 04:17 PM

Also, could you touch on compliance and non-compliance encounters? Like a compliance encounter like a mugging or abduction, and a non-compliance encounter like a drunken trailer-park denizen attacking his neighbor over a noisy dog? :cool:

Shooter

03-14-2002, 04:32 PM

c'mon man...don't be so sparing with your knowledge. :cool:

Shaolindynasty

03-14-2002, 05:54 PM

"if kung fu stayed underground, most of our white asses would have never seen it."

Exactly.

Also a school doesn't have to be "underground" to be good. What needs to happen is more schools need to put the focus back on usage. Kinda like training at a boxing gym. Boxing is very mainstream but people expect to learn how to really fight. The media has caused the misconception that kungfu is like the kungfu tv series instead of a fighting method. It doesn't help that instructors follow this and act like Kwai chang cane. Of course out of all the schools I've seen only the fake ones do that. Anyway.....don't worry about everybody else and make your school the best it can be. Show your stuff and people will get the right idea and the "weak" schools will disapear. Of course some will survive but who cares? How does that invalidate your practice, it doesn't.

shinbushi

03-15-2002, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Water Dragon;

And then, again, the cultural bias-- Compare the attitude of "traditional," Chinese masters with the attitude of Kano... now, what's an olympic sport, filled with tough competitors who could make you barf your lunch and cause a concussion when they send you screaming through the air?

Actually Kano was against Judo becoming an Olympic sport. Even in his time (After he was no longer in the Kodokan) he did not like it than more and more Judoka were jery-rigging techniques rather than getting prober kuzushi (off-balancing)

Braden

03-15-2002, 10:36 AM

Moreover, when he saw the way competition had altered the effects of his art, Kano expressed disgust.

Black Jack

03-15-2002, 10:41 AM

Braden,

I got in an arguement about that same subject with a Judoka!

In the begining judo was not supposed to be a sport, but a combative system, judo has atemi, strikes, kicks, and a whole host of other stuff in it. Take a look at the older manuels from the 40's and you will see a much more serious focus on street self defense than in grappling competition.

MonkeySlap Too

03-15-2002, 10:44 AM

The great competition debate...

I started out in Judo and loved to compete.

I learned Kung Fu and disliked tournements but sparred with anybody.

Then I started a Southern Style and Shuai Chiao - and my coach settled my hash by having me fight anytime, any rules. The rules thing is a great ego destroyer, let me tell you.

I spent my peak years fighting essentially Kuo Shu style rules and open matches.

Now I am mostly a coach. I do not emphasize competition, but I recommend it for a period of training, and I strongly recommend 'intramural' matches - especially with schools that focus on things we do not. Otherwise, how will you be sure you could pull it off for real? Competition is NOT reality - in my experience, real fights are much, much shorter. But in competition I learned what I needed to train in in the school to win in the street. Deficiencies become apparent in competition. Ironically, I never competed to 'win', I competed to improve my training. That I won a lot was incidental. Maybe even accidental ;).

Currently I require students to have a solid base 1-3 years of training befotre they fight. This prevents slap fights and bad habits. However, the training methodology incorporates building 'live' attributes rather than just form or technique.

I guess what I am saying is that if you train just to win - you are using the rules to alter your art, possibly ruining it for the street by creating bad habits. But if you compete to test your skills and training attributes, it is a rewarding exercise.

Merryprankster

03-15-2002, 10:50 AM

i KNEW you guys would tweak on to that!

It's not the sport I really was getting at--Kano's openness--the openness of Judo is what LED to the creation of the Olympic sport--for good or ill, the spread of the art has created a lot of high-level, tough competitors, world wide.

Now, you don't have to like sportive Judo or the rules, but you can't deny that the openness of Judo has spread it around the world and has some tough, tough guys with fantastic skills.

Braden

03-15-2002, 10:53 AM

What do you mean by 'openness' with respect to your assertion that Kano varied from the traditional chinese stance?

Water Dragon

03-15-2002, 11:02 AM

IMO, MonkeySlap has provided the rub.

Option1> No competition as it "dilutes" the art. You never have a chnace to use your stuff on someone who doesn't want you to.

Option2> Competition with rules. Yes, it can change or "dilute" the art, but as long as you are competing for the right reasons, you'll be OK

Option3> All out, true, no holds barred sparring. Sure, it's the most realistic way to train, but not an option for me. This one probably will get you permanently injured.

So the question is, which one is best to develop skill without hurting yourself too bad?

Merryprankster

03-15-2002, 11:11 AM

Kano wanted to spread the art. Actively spread, mind you... and if he didn't and I'm wrong, then teaching it to a wide variety of people, nations, cultures, etc, wasn't considered somehow a betrayal of the principles of Judo, and there didn't seem to be a "prove you are worthy of the secrets," mindset--Judo was not shrouded in some kind of mystery....

Yet, here, when the traditional Chinese system is spoken of, there seems to be a lack of that openness. A feeling that the things that are taught are not for everyone to learn, that you must earn the right to be taught, and certainly, a bias against sharing the skills you had...and certainly against sharing them with Non-chinese (I realize that time has mitigated a great deal of that)

Now, the above is a stereotype, certainly.... but I've found that almost all "rumors" have a basis in truth. So perhaps the situation wasn't as dire as I've made it out to be, but certainly, somewhere, there is a shred of truth to that.

Braden

03-15-2002, 11:18 AM

It really isn't that true, for the most part. There have always been competitions, both of the martial variety and the demonstration variety in china. There have always been people strongly promoting their arts, seeking out teachers, and seeking out challenge matches. Even a cursory examination of chinese martial history shows this. As for secrets, simply go an internet search for the so-called secrets of the chinese arts, and you will find them. If you want to see them, order a VCD for $10 from Jarek's site of the current lineage holders showing their stuff. If you want to see classical stuff, buy translations of old books from STMA for $15, written by people like Sun Lu Tang who drew out their postures and tried to explain exactly what they were doing - then printed tonnes of copies and handed them out. Where's the secrecy? The cynic in me would suggest it's in the minds and words of those who have some knowledge and wish to believe it more valuable by calling it rare, and those who have no knowledge and wish to excuse it as someone else's fault rather than their own.

MonkeySlap Too

03-15-2002, 11:29 AM

Yeah Braden that's a really good point. Unfortunately, not everything was ever published - and frankly I don't want to get into an analysis of the Chinese mindset - as you really can't without examining the different regions, ethnic groups and cultures that make up what is "Chinese".

I think the big deal is that a lot of CMA have been central to martial arts 'cults' - hence the ceremony, ritual and secrecy. There are also differences in how students and teachers interact in Chinese cultures.

My Shuai Chiao teacher was always completely honest and open - something that is pretty hard to acheive, especially if someone is focused on thier own ego. Which why he always said "the truth is on the mat."

Not all CMA are secret squirrell types. But at the same time, from my Western approach, if I don't like you, I'm not teaching you. (You got to be a real jerk for this to be true) So I guess, there is still some "secrets." But you can probably find something else, none of us are the only gym in town.

I think I really made my point earlier when I said there are secrets everywhere, you have just got to earn your way. They are there for the taking.

And I agree, a lot of schools hold to the secret card to hide that either they now nothing, or out of fear of not being 'special.'

Braden

03-15-2002, 11:42 AM

There are certainly secrets in the chinese arts. As there are in, for example, BJJ. I seem to recall hearing a number of scathing comments on the deliberate lack of quality of early public domain BJJ material, for example. I simply think that to broadly characterize chinese arts as secretive, and especially to characterize them as qualitatively more secret than other martial traditions, would be quite misleading.

Of course there are some secrets. As you say, you won't teach someone you don't like. You probably won't give the same instructions to an advanced student as you would to a beginning student, even if you're instructing them in the exact same movements. Is it really fair to call these kinds of practices secret though, or simply good teaching practices?

Similarly, someone might suggest that the taiji classics, for example, are so obscure as to be technically secrets. However, their utility is that if you strive towards them in the context of legitimate training tools, you will develop the appropriate skills. In truth, the only alternative would be a 'secret' which spontaneously develops skill without the student having to do any work. But of course such a thing doesn't exist.

So in these sense, there are plenty of secrets out there.

But I do not think this sense of 'secret' is the same sense which is being used critically in this discussion.