Wing Chun leg kick

[qeySuS]

I remember when i was in Wing Chun class there were basicly 2 kicks, well ok ONE kick but used in 2-3 ways, same kick basicly a front kick where your foot was horizontal insted of being vertical, and used to the stomach or knee mostly (sometimes to block kicks as well).

Well basicly we trained this kick to the knee a lot and it was my understanding that you were suppose to kick on top of the kneeshell in a attempt to break it. Well i gotta say that after this last practice i seriously doubt that this kind of kick can work in many situations, it may land but i doubt it'll break anything.

I was sparring in class, and my opponent comes in with .. well it could have been a front kick or roundhouse i'm not sure but his leg is extended and i throw a front/push kick in hopes of taking him off balance, well our feet clash together like this: My heel goes full force on the Kneecap (almost under it) and i extended the kick (didnt realize until it was over what had happened, he hurt himself, but the knee was still there, he wasnt limping and only had a minor bruise, now i'm no POWER kicker or anything, but my front kicks are decent and create good power (my heel is actually sore right now from the kick), i doubt that you will get any more force from doing the Wing Chun kick.

So my question is this, would the wing chun kick EVER break the leg (or move the kneecap), maybe i just never developed it fully, but since you never actually practice kicking someones kneecap out (literally) i'm guessing not many wing chun practitioners know.

Well just figured i'd throw a MA related topic out there ;)

[David Jamieson]

Better to measure yourself against the style instead of measuring the style against yourself.

a patella will break at about 15-30lbs psi.

a kick can generate that easily.
angle is important as well as the force delivered.

peace

[TaoBoy]

KL speaks truly.

These low kicks can break the knee.
But, they don't have to. Taking your opponent's stance - and therefore his/her balance - is enough to allow entry to the head. Shut down the head and the body goes down too.

[qeySuS]

I was afraid as hell when the kick was just over, i felt immedietly where the heel had landed and was afraid something had broken, fortunetly all he got was a bruise :)

M'kay it just seemed so unreal taht a kick like that wouldnt hurt him at all.

[stonecrusher69]

If you want to break the knee better to kick at it from the side at its weakest point,but you can break the knee at the front to.Use the hands to set up the kick.

happy kicking!!

[Spark]

Why don't you send this one over to the WC forum?

Hmm it's funny because I'm WC and although I'm not at the level where I'm applying kicks, in my head I've never thought to kick the way you described. The front kick has many more uses than just breaking your opponent's knee. Just because it is 'called' the front kick, doesn't mean you have to kick the front of your opponent :)

Personally, I think it is useful to use it from the side or almost 45 degrees to the back to collapse the leg and put your opponent/partner off balance.

[yenhoi]

You didnt hit hard enough is all. Try hitting the knee from the 'side' if you really want to break it - thats the force of your kick, and if thats not enough, if you mvoe the knee, also your opponents body weight will be a factor.

Usually I wouldent say you low kick to break the knee, rather to steal your opponents stance/balance. Depends on the distance between you and your opponent. If you havent bridged already, then a knee kick is still viable, if the distance is very short, or you have already bridged, then getting your leg high enough to damage the knee from above takes too much time and effort for the results - and if the opponent is skilled or lucky, he will hit you or smash your supporting knee while your lifting up your leg.

Remember simplicity and economy, the only time I can envision going after someones knee from above is before I have bridged at all, while the opponent is just entering kicking range. I say "opponent entering" because I wouldent usually go for a leg unless he is kicking or moving (has one leg lifted) and I go for the support.


Yes that kick will break a knee from above with enough force, and definitly from the 'side' with less force.

[qeySuS]

Well i'll admit that from what i've read here about Wing Chun training it seems mine did have a few holes in it and was a bit sloppy so i may have gotten some of the things wrong so .. plus it's 1,5 year since i attended class there :)

[stonecrusher69]

when it comes to kicks in w.c. lots of times they want to beak the knee or leg but I perfer the sweep the leg,trip or num the leg.You don't always have to brake it.

[Spark]

nice pun!!!

:p

[yuanfen]

Original poster: Kung lek and several others have given you good advice. Timing and angle are the keys. BTW-there are lots of kicks in wing chun- you just dont see them at the run of the mill schools.

[qeySuS]

Yuanfen: I dont train Wing Chun anymore, i was just making a general observation :) Trying to spark some discussion.

[Spark]

Nice Pun!!!

:p

[jesper]

The object of kicking the opponents leg is not to break it, but to disrupt his stance and prepare to finish him of.
Often people talk alot about breaking arms and legs, with one fell move. Its my experience that it takes a great deal of luck to be able to land your punch/kick precisely and hard enough to actually break something.

Now can it be done. Of cause it can, its just very hard to do in a real fight, so counting on it to work is stupid, and will get you seriously hurt.

[fa_jing]

I think (speculate) that if you are talking about breaking the knee from the front, then the leg (your target) would have to be both fully extended AND the foot resting on the ground. Even if his leg was coming at you with momentum, and was fully extended, the fact that it was in the air at the time probably allows the force to disperse.

On a side note, my Sifu says that in all the MMA fighting he's seen and been involved in, no one ever got their leg or knee broken, even with Thai round kicks to the side of the knee. I've read of it happening, but I think it is a pretty rare occurence in fact.

-FJ

[dzu]

From reading your description, it appears as if you were kicking his kicking leg rather than the supporting leg.

It's much easier to damage the knee by kicking the support leg because it's planted and is bearing the person's weight. Analyze the range of motion of the knee and you'll see that it bends in a front to back direction with very little lateral support. That indicates that the best direction to apply force is from the side where the anatomical structure is weakest. Other factors can also magnify the result of the kick.

Kicking the kicking leg can also damage the knee, but it's more difficult because the leg is in space and can move in more directions in response to applied force. It's easier to get a good angle to attack the knee when the leg is not moving.

Dzu

[sanchezero]

The knee is a simple joint in that it only moves in one plane. This simplicity also makes it much more stable than say, the shoulder.

If you hit a bent knee from the front you gotta have pretty mad power to fu<k it up bad. It needs to be attacked while straight or from an angle contradictory to its range of motion.

I think the reason we don't see/receive more knee injuries is because of paranoia. We train to limit others access to our knees, we strengthen our knees, we keep them bent, and I know I'll allow my structure to collapse and goto the dirt if I feel in danger of losing my knee.

It's like an achilles heel, psychologically. I'll suck up mad blows to the torso and even the head, but I'll do anything to save my stumps. :D

That said, against your average doofus, you can get disabling knee attacks fairly easily. But then, you can do pretty much anything else you want to. ;)

[Martial Joe]

I have seen guys in fights using front kicks like that...knocking the other man right down or seriously hurting him...

[stonecrusher69]

A lot of wing chun people I see when they kick the front leg don't really do it right.If they kick the guys front leg straight on and to far away all the guy has to do is either left his leg,but even if the kick hit the guys knee he can move the leg back and it does'nt do much damage.But if you kick the leg at close range and at a downward angle the guy will not be able able to pull his leg back and the knee will break.