Question on class sizes

[Mannek]

Hello, little about me : I'm really new to martial arts. Of course ive watched movies all my life, etc, but neverbecame as interested in doing one as I am now. Anyway, Ive decided I would like to learn Kung Fu for several reasons. One, it has both external and internal aspects, two, it is (hopefully) and authentic art, and three to help develope some form of self defense other than simply wailing on someone as Ive always done in those situations.

My question is regardign the first school ive taken a look at. I noticed the Sifu payed great attention to his visitors, and mainly corrected his senior students on technique as they practiced with intermediate students. I am wondering if class size should be taken into account. Even if the Sifu has great accomplishments, those only become a benefit to me if they are passed on. My question is, can I still learn as much as i need to in a class of 15 - 20 or should I be looking for soemthign smaller?

Thanks in advance for replies.

[BeiTangLang]

I am just guessing, but there is a good chance that he was correcting the new students while they worked with senior students. Having New students work one-on-one with more senior students is a good teaching technique no matter what level you are at.
As far as what class size, I suppose it would depend upon the instructor. Do the student all learn well at the same time, or are there several of them standing around wasting train-time?
Our Kwoon handles up to 30-35 per class well because we have senior students come in to work with sidai. It is both a learning(technique for the younger, how to teach+extra workout time for the older) experience & a teaching ecperience for those involved.
I know it was a long answer, but bottom line is, observe the class & see how the Sifu handles things.
Best Wishes,
BTL

[Erisson]

First off, I'm just getting back in to training after about 4-5 years away, so I'm basically a beginner again. That said...

When you say the sifu pays a lot of attention to the visitors, do you mean visitors, or beginners? At my school, I've been very impressed with how helpful the advanced students are, and also how well the head instructor and one or two senior students do at wandering around and giving everyone pointers, even if we've got 4-5 different groups of people doing different techniques and forms.

I'm the newest student at the school, so I'm pretty much in my own group, and I had three senior students and the head instructor helping me at various times last night. Generally, one of them would show me how to do something, watch me do it a few times, then tell me to keep practicing, and go and work with a different group, or practice themselves, looking back to see how I was doing, and giving me pointers.

There were about 15 of us there, I think, and while we didn't all get individual attention the whole time, I think we got what we needed.

I guess my answer to your question is two-fold. If you feel you need more attention, then you should either bring it up to the sifu, or keep shopping around. Another thing to think about is how advanced the advanced students are.

The student who taught me stances had been studying for 15 years, I believe, and it was funny to see that he didn't think about how to do stances anymore, he just did them. He had some trouble explaining it to me, but I think in the process not only did he teach me the stances, but started thinking about it himself. Hopefully it'll help him refine his technique, and also make him a better teacher the next time he has to teach a technique to a new student.

Anyway, long winded, but I hope it answers your question.
Erisson

[Mannek]

When referring to visitors, i meant myself, and those others who were visiting the school to see what it was like. While he wasnt walking around correcting things he saw wrong, he would come to where the visitors were watching, and explain the differences between Kung Fu and other martial arts, and answer any questions we had.

It appeared that he was correcting both senior students and the intermediates at times. He said that he always has enough advanced students to be able to pair up with each novice/intermediate student. Everyone was learning/working on stuff there.

I havent begun learning yet, Im just trying to make sure that if im serious about this, even in a larger class size, ill be able to learn what I should.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I wouldn't be too concerned about class size as long as there are enough assistants available and the room is large enough for everyone to move as they should. If you have to shorten your steps because the people around you are too close or you're lost in a sea of students with nobody correcting you then it's a problem. We occasionally have some very large classes at the Wah Lum Temple and when that happens we send smaller groups out into the side areas or parking lot with an Instructor. During the first few months you should get a lot of attention from an Instructor but they can only show you so much. After that it's up to you to work on and drill the material. One thing that drives me nuts is when I work with a student, go to help another student, come back and the first student is standing there waiting for me to tell him to keep practicing what I showed him.
You can lead a horse to water but if he doesn't drink it then he isn't thirsty. I can show a student what to do and how to do it but I can't do it for them.

[Mannek]

Thanks, those of you who helped answer this question. The issue of class size was really the only thing I found that would make me consider another school, but thanks to you I can leave that worry aside as i look around at other schools and make my informerd decision.

On another note, since Im just getting into this, is there anything any of you would recommend as far as practicing, and also any sort of body conditioning you find especially useful to better accomodate your Kung Fu? Thanks

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

It really depends on which style you plan on taking. You would need a lot of leg strength and flexability for Wah Lum but not for Wing Chun. What would help no matter what style you study is cardio and stamina exercises. New students need to drill drill drill to get the basics down solidly. Unfortunately new students are usually not in top shape. If you can get your cardio and stamina up it will allow you to put in the time needed to ingrain good basics into your body. Running, swimming, bicycling and stretching. Don't worry about speed or strength right now and definitely don't bulk up lifting weights.

[Mannek]

One of the reasons im taking MA is so I have a reason to get back into shape , as silly as that seems. Ill find cardio work less of a bore when i know Ill reap the benefits in my classes. I appreciate the tips. If I am working with weights, Ill stick to high reps, lower weight then.

I visited two N. shaolin kung fu classes last night. They both seemed form oriented schools (this is what they said) Now I know this style is different than praying mantis, but at the mantis school I visited, there was more sparring type work being done by the students. Should I go for a school that does more sparring in its organization, or are most beginner classes focussed only on the forms? (I agree forms are very important, and you shouldnt probably spar before you get a correct understanding of them, but then I dont want to have too little experience in dealing with an oppionent. Whats your opinion?

[BeiTangLang]

What are you looking for?

Do you want to learn forms right away??
Do you want to know how to defend yourself right away?
Aside from observing beginner classes, did you watch the intermediate or advanced? You may want to consider not only
what is initialy taught, but where they go after basics.
Many schools end up teaching form after form after form etc. & never show you the apps or even care about the apps. Some show apps that are just unfeasable.
Simplicity is efficiency, remember that.
If you want to learn basics & how to initialy defend yourself, it sounds like the mantis thing is for you.
If you want to start learning forms & catch the basics as you go, then the other schools are your ticket to ride.

It all boils down to "what do you want?"
None of us can answer that for you.
Best wishes in your quest,
BTL

[Mannek]

So I'm not misunderstood, maybe I ought to rephrase slightly. Forgetting the classes Ive attended thus far, what do you find most important to learn at what stage(beginner, intermediate, and advanced)?

I dont have a problem identifying what it is I want, but I also recognize that Im very new to this, and I figure someone with more experience might be able to give me insight, or some kind of guideline to help me get what i want. Since I dont know if studying forms, then getting the basics of self defense is better or worse than studying self defense initially, or even the different plusses and minusses to each style of learning, it's difficult for me to say one or the other is right for me.

I suppose all im asking is if, in your experience, you found that a more apps-oriented school will turn out people who more completely understand Kung Fu than one of these "forms - oriented" schools?

[BeiTangLang]

I look at it from a practical (in my mind) view.
I will not perform a ballet without knowing how to dance, nor try to dance without knowing how to walk.
That being said, I believe learning basics is a smarter move.
Best Wishes,
BTL

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Mannek
I would say go for the apps. Opportunities for learning forms come around more often than opportunities to learn apps. Once you understand some of the apps you will understand the forms when you do learn them. I've applied apps I learned in Kenpo in my early days to the Kung Fu I'm learning today.

[yu shan]

Hua Lin

Good advise! Especially if it`s a Mantis school. It is good to find a happy median. I always ask visiting potential students, what do you want out of this? Everyone is differant, some want hand forms some want to specialize in weapons, two-person fighting drills, etc. I will remember the student`s needs and try my utmost to satisfy. I believe you should hit all of the above. I do make sure the student knows if there is something we do that makes he/she uncomfortable, don`t do it. (body cond. intense two person exercises) not everyone wants to beat the crap out of each other, or leave bruised after each class. It is nice to have hard cores who do though, keeps me sharp.
By the way Hua Lin, you are right about MC tests, they are all diff. from the stories I`ve heard. I was lucky to have experienced a difficult one.
YS

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

You mean there are easy ones? :D

[isol8d]

Just my 2 cents.

Class size does matter. Being put with higher level students to learn the basics can be very frustrating, if they all disagree on the way they should be taught. Also, if the upper students are still immature, they can be demoralizing to a new student. Sometimes it may seem that they lack the foresite to realize that people do not have the same amount of time to give to an art, and things can be said because they are immature.

On the flip side, if your older kung fu brothers and sisters are patient and passionate about their system, there should not be an issue with class size.

[PaulLin]

I am not teaching any class, only a private research group. But if I would look for a class, I will look at 1. if it is life long learning. Since I don't need any to fight up to certain level in a short time, I want the long term train. 2. Like HuaLin said, applications. if one teaches without correct applications, the practice will gone out of the original requirements and not know. Many teachers taught things are totally not correct any more and not able to see them is cause by lack of correct applications to refere to.

[yu shan]

Hi PaulLin

I have a friend in the Costa Mesa/Huntington Beach area, that is very interested in CMA. Do you have a recommendation? If you would rather not post can you send a pm? Many thanks.

Yu Shan

[PaulLin]

Other than me, my father has one other student teach in a 24hr. fitness ctr. at LongBeach. Sunday morning, named John C. Pickage. Others around not sure, Duke Chen may have some one near but we didn't contect him, don't know what they are good at.

[yu shan]

PaulLin

Would my friend have your permission to contact you thru KFO, pm? I am only trying to help. Again, thank you for your time. Good day sir.

[PaulLin]

It's ok, you are welcome.

[yu shan]

PaulLin

Thank you very much. I`m leaving for Taiwan in the morning to visit and train with Pong Lai and Tainan Mantis, I will e-mail my friend Rick, he is very respectful.

[yu shan]

PaulLin

Thank you very much. I`m leaving for Taiwan in the morning to visit and train with Pong Lai and Tainan Mantis, I will e-mail my friend Rick, he is very respectful.

[yu shan]

ahhh woops, cheap internet, sorry.

[PaulLin]

I think you can delete a repeated reply, you know?