This is almost too unbelievable...

[Radhnoti]

If I hadn't gotten this from a real news source I'd chalk it up to net rumors or a hoax...I can't believe something like this could really happen. I'll copy/paste the article, then I'll put a link to the original article at the end.

Chinese peasants take revenge after being given HIV
By Damien McElroy in Beijing
(Filed: 10/03/2002)


CHINA is being swept by a wave of revenge attacks by victims of a government scheme that infected hundreds of thousands of peasants with the Aids virus before abandoning them without medical care or compensation.

Major cities have been convulsed by fear as word has spread that innocent pedestrians are being attacked in the street by people with syringes said to contain HIV-tainted blood.

Anxious residents of Beijing and Tianjin, the two largest northern cities, have besieged hospital clinics, demanding blood tests after saying that they were stabbed in the street. The government imposed a news blackout for fear of fuelling further panic, especially in Tianjin, where 47 reported attacks have prompted workers to call in sick, led shoppers to stay at home and caused some people to flee the city.

Between 100,000 and 500,000 people from Henan province, in central China, are thought to have contracted the virus after selling blood in a scheme that used unsanitary methods.

Whole villages in the province have been plunged into a public-health crisis as up to 80 per cent of residents have been infected with HIV. They have since received little or no medical care. Some have travelled to the cities to draw attention to their plight.

The virus was spread after local authorities set up collection units that toured villages, buying blood and returning plasma to donors - a method that helps the body compensate for the loss of blood. Government agencies are said to have pooled plasma in vats before reinjecting it. Visitors to the area describe scenes composed of the living dead - victims developing Aids and enduring the fevers, sores, headaches, boils and consumptive coughs associated with it. On the streets, shuffling men and women in clothes that no longer fit stare at strangers with the hopeless look of the ****ed.

Many villagers now face a nightmarish existence of suffering without state medical care as they slip towards death.

The infections date back to the late 1990s, but victims have been growing bolder recently as they challenge the government for free medicine and financial compensation. Last month, their desperation spilled out of the backward uplands of Henan and on to the prosperous streets of China's big cities. Police say that the number of attacks has been growing.

"The Tianjin public security [police] bureau has ascertained that a small number of criminals with ulterior motives were responsible for recent attacks on citizens by people wielding syringes and sharp objects," said one officer.

Discos and cinemas have suffered a slump in custom as worried people stay home, while Tianjin's education officials have told schools to strengthen security.

Source:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/03/10/whiv10.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/03/10/ixworld.html

If anyone finds something to refute this, please post it and tell me I'm naive for believing.

[Nexus]

That's really unfortunate.

[PHILBERT]

Thats ****ed up.

[Drone]

I remember reading about the spread of HIV in the rural areas because of unsafe blood collecting practices a number of months ago.(I think I was in the New York Times). But the attacks in the streets... that is something I have never heard before and if true is really unfortunate

[diego]

are you saying they didnt intentionaly do this like they do with limiting birthrates, it was a accident?, i would hope so, but some reason i don't doubt it.

[Silumkid]

I don't know about this particular story, but sometimes even "reliable" news sources can be suspect. A while back all the news channels were screaming about making sure to check your handles on gas dispensers at stations. Seems some whacko was placing HIV infected needles under the handles and people were getting their fingers poked. It was a fake story...it started in the internet, a news channel picked it up, and voila! Citywide scare.

[Radhnoti]

I think Drone was just commenting that he hadn't heard about the "revenge attacks" with AIDS infected needles in the big cities. The article implied that it was being done in retaliation for the government's handling of the whole situation, but it never really mentioned why that was the case...that I recall.

I can't believe that they may have infected HALF A MILLION PEOPLE...it's just unreal. Like some kind of crazed sci-fi movie...

[Drone]

yeah exactly what Radhnoti said.

[prana]

In the early 1900's, first born babies who were female was immediately drowned in the river. It was customery. If you didnt do it, the general public alienated you.

Women tied up their feat, it was customery, so they couldn't run away. FOrtunately, those who were modern enough not to do it were able to migrate to the south during the wars. The others, well they suffered whilst their husbands left them for the southern countries.

My mums trip to China, she said, homeless clothless dying baby girls are found on the streets today, some she doesnt even know if they were corpses or not.

[Ryu]

"Women tied up their feat, it was customery, so they couldn't run away. "

I'm pretty sure that was a fashion thing. Little feet on women were "attractive".
I could be wrong, but that's what I was always taught.

Oh well, who cares anyway?
Anything that gets rid of the human race in my opinion is good. :)

(And yes, I am Evil Ryu again.)

Ryu

[Sam Wiley]

Wasn't there a story floating around America about a year ago, about people planting AIDS infected needles in theatre seats so when people sat down on them they would be stuck and contract HIV? Didn't that one prove to be bull?

[wushu chik]

Don't forget the story about psychos putting HIV infected needles in payphone change thingys. That one was classic!!

~Wen~

[diego]

i just saw a documentary, the small feet thing bieng cute was the standard but the reality behind the cycosis, the realness behind the practise is feet bieng binded, the womens hips are pressed up or something making her always like a virgin, and that is why they liked it.
Now how the **** they figure this out, it takes three or four years for the process, and thats just nasty, how did they test that.

Now my question, is this why foriegnors called them the sickmenofasia?. Didnt the manchu make them do this, along with the ponytail?, did the ching do this to thier women?.

[prana]

diego

This is the unfortunate truth, but yes their feet were tied so that they are kept in-doors instead of going places, not just for beauty. Actually, if you took a look, they are plain ugly. They suffer like this for long periods, I hear stories of them screaming in pain.

One I know, her husband could not bear to watch her in pain, and told her to take it off. Others, are not so lucky....

[diego]

virgin, and that is the main reason for it? You know about this?.

[jon]

Mental note...
Small feet on a girl is now a definate bonus:D






Yeah it was crude, rude, childish and totaly out of place, i appologise in advance to everyone i just offended:(

[Tae Li]

in not generalising here...but there are some men in this world who need to be taught a lesson... for their ignorant mentality.

And the way some countries treat their women...i mean who the hel do u males think you are anyway???

im sorry about the sudden outburst but when i hear of stories of the way female babies are treated and young girls and married women...it simply disgusts me.

I would rather be killed that treated as dirt by some male because he thought he had more power and dominance over me. And why? becuase his genitals are external and mine arnt? oh! some power!

Theres no respect anymore. No morals No ethics. we are living part of a race that is walking around blind folded. Im not neccessarily talking about western countries... Im so glad the President of Indonesia is female...one day im gonna prove a point of power. But it wont neccessarily be about power only, it will be about justice, truth and fairness in the 21st century. And equality. Especially equality.

And the next person who makes a remark about women and 'perfect perky small feet' im just gonna scream.

Tae Li;) (letting off abit of steam)

[jon]

Tae Li
"And the next person who makes a remark about women and 'perfect perky small feet' im just gonna scream."
* Sorry buddy :( It was just a stupid joke and not to be taken seriously, the thread seemed so dire i felt it needed a tiny amount of humour.

Still i personaly try pretty hard not to be a moron around women, i often stuff it up but they are always willing to point (shove) me in the right direction;) The trick is to always maintain eye contact with there breasts while they are speaking - yeah thats it :p
Seriously though you know me im pretty strait up, i dont treat people with bias deliberately.

Remember though i didnt bind anyones feet, i just made a terrible joke about it:(

[red_fists]

Tae Li.

While I agree 100% with you I also have to say it is difficult to say this is wrong or bad unless you have seen the other side.

Most of those women didn't know any different and thought this was the way ALL women were treated.

So who's perception is right yours or theirs??

Think about that one slowly. Each Culture has certain things that are there for a reason.
Too many People tried to change things only to realise once their backs were turned it happened again and again.

Accept the difference and keep living your life.

[patriot]

In western nations, there is this evil scheme of putting women on very high heels so that they cannot run away. The high heels also make women a more desirable sex object for the dominating males. Western nations also put up propaganda with skinny models so that they can starve their young women. In any case, AIDS is something that the CIA introduces to the population to get rid of the Blacks and the ****sexuals. And that is the truth - you can now go out and tell everybody.

[Ryu]

Just because a culture may do something does not make it "right" in a sense that it does not cause harm, pain, or suffering on others. Just because women thought this was the way to be treated does not take away from their suffering and pain with it. If we are not careful we can also say the German nazis were not wrong either because that's the way they percieved things to be.
BE CAREFUL with cultural relativism. It doesn't work. You take perception into account, but it's not the end all. It leaves no room for moral progress. Plus, it's contradicting in this way too.
OUR culture says you CAN judge another culture's tradition, etc. So to say that we shouldn't do that is not tolerant of our culture. Anyway I don't want to even discuss it anymore. People seem to just want a golden rule that keeps them from using their judgment and thinking anymore. It's not helpful.
There has to be a middle ground. You need to look at culture's actions in terms of their own perceptions and understandings of things, but that doesn't mean you accept everything they do. For God's sake were at war right now because of that...

Tae Li,
"Theres no respect anymore. No morals No ethics. we are living part of a race that is walking around blind folded."

Not so. Bad things are deceptive, and make you think the whole world is like that. It's not. There is beauty here and compassion and morality and understanding if you look for it. :)
I agree with you completely here, and to be honest, I really admire a woman who stands up for her convictions like that. But there's still knights left in the world, don't give up hope or anything. :)

;( well......guess you knocked out my "Evil Ryu" mood...
this is something Good Ryu would say.
Oh well.

:)

Ryu

[ewallace]

In any case, AIDS is something that the CIA introduces to the population to get rid of the Blacks and the ****sexuals.
That's funny. I think conspiracy theory has popped up on TV a few to many times. I don't give the CIA that much credit. If AIDS originated in Africa, all it takes is ONE person to come over here and infect someone. And then, as a virus does, it spreads rapidly.

The truth is out there Mulder.

[Ryu]

I thought he was being sarcastic.

Ryu

[ewallace]

I hope so. But the microchip I found under my skin after it itched really bad makes me think he might be on to something.

[Ryu]

:D

[Kristoffer]

Recently in my country, there was some crazy b.itch that robbed people with a infected needle. Scary **** :eek:

[Ryu]

Well she's not "wrong" because she's from a different culture :rolleyes: :D

(kidding of course)
Ryu

[prana]

Sorry Ryu, just realised your post concerning a reply to mine (being a beauty statement), my post to Diego was not targeted at you nor any pun intended. Hope you werent offended.


All people and nations live their ways. Ones method is always going to be disagreeable to others. It is unfortunate, but I guess it is, samsara.

[Ryu]

Huh? Oh no that's fine. I wasn't thinking you were directing anything at me. :) I was commenting on something else. The thing that probably bothers me the most. :)
I wasn't offended at all by anything you said. Don't worry. I hope I didn't come across to overbearing either.

The way out of Samsara is through wisdom and compassion (together at their highest they lead to enlightenment) You can't have one without the other so we've gotta keep on thinkin' judgin' , carin' and understandin' :)

People can get along much better than some would have us believe. All the dear friends I have from Japan, Okinawa, Mexico, Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Columbia, have taught me that. Ways of living are more geared towards individuals is what they've taught me. Culture plays a part, but is not as crucial as some think. People are people.

Ryu

[joedoe]

I agree with you - we need equality, justice, fairness and all those good things.

Just remember when you make it to proving your point of power that you must also exhibit that equality, fairness, and justice. Seeking revenge is counterproductive, and that is the main problem I have with the rabid feminists - in their quest for equality and justice they are willing to punish today's men for the sins of their fathers.

As for cultural practices, I think that everyone has right to an opinion. Just bear in mind that every culture has it skeletons in the closet. :)

[prana]

I wonder if one day, our childrens children will turn around and say "Our granparents were this and this, and this" yet we didnt even know we are walking the path of causing pain and hatred for others.

*cynical bassstard* speaking here....

That is it, no children for me. A dog, a few dogs :)

[Tae Li]

Originally posted by red_fists
Tae Li.

While I agree 100% with you I also have to say it is difficult to say this is wrong or bad unless you have seen the other side.

Most of those women didn't know any different and thought this was the way ALL women were treated.

So who's perception is right yours or theirs??

Think about that one slowly. Each Culture has certain things that are there for a reason.
Too many People tried to change things only to realise once their backs were turned it happened again and again.

Accept the difference and keep living your life.

regardless that women thought this was the way all women were treated therefore considered it to be a way o f life. when we are born, we are born with a natural commonsense that pain and suffering is not a good thing therefore should not be imposed apon anyone. Its a coomonsense that comes with the human body. you DO NOT torture a person for the sake of torturing them. Its absurd. Even in those countries and times you DO question things, you question actions and you ask yourself why? why? why? people still think but they do not think outloud.

Im not saying that my perceptions are correct and theirs are wrong. im just saying that everyone is born with a right that should ultimately be based on a commonsense that pain should not be imposed on ANY HUMAN without a darn good reason, and 'being a woman' for a reason is simply to stupid. Its pathetic.

I wont accept the difference but i will keep living my life with the ambition that as one person, one single minded motivated female, I can make at least a small change where ever possible.

Jon, its ok, i know what kind of a bloke you are. Possibly one of the nicest guys i know (aside from prana and some others wink wink).

I cant change the past, just thinking about it in that sense is a waste of time, but i can attempt to alter the future. I dont want to run around in the streets burning my bra and shouting nonsense, i just want to prove a legitimate point. That a man and a woman are born equal and should live their lives according to that equality. What continues to happen in many countries is a big deliberate blunder and it disgusts me. But i can only do, what i can do.

Tae Li.

[joedoe]

Best of luck with your quest. :)

[red_fists]

Tae Li.

One thing I have learned by living in Asia is that the western/judeo-christian value and moral system does not apply here.

And therefor you need to judge another culture without being influenced by your own.

And I don't think that anybody can do that unless they have lived in multiple countries and REALLY experienced those cultures.

Look at Prostitution in Japan, illegal, yep.
But at the same time it is one of the biggest accepted Industries in the world.

A Contradiction not at all, but simply a compromise that utilises loop holes in the laws to continue an old cultural tradition way past a "western" law that was passed in 1957.

In old Japan Men were encouraged to visit houses of ill repute or keep an mistress in order to show that they were financially viable.
Kinda like some countries in Europe a few hundred years ago.

Ooops, said too much.

My point being if I tie a womens foot, or if cultural restrictions force them to wear whalebone corsettes to forcibly slim their waists and thus ruin their Health. It is the same and we still do similar things in modern life and many do and have voluntarily done so.

Some of those were pointed out in previous posts.

Just some food thought.

[Tae Li]

I understand what you are trying to say and I do agree with you, if that is their culture than me as one person living in a western country living according to western life really have no power to force any kind of change.

But i am trying to make a point soley based on the motivation for causing pain....it saddens me it really does.

Im not out on a some big quest, but i think that by thinking the way i do as a female that is already an immedite improvement, plus im really stubborn and i only give in when its based on truth.

I dont want to alter culture or sad tradition, i just want the world to know that the way many women are treated in different countries is WRONG. plain and simple as that. And you know what? One day all those men who treated their women so wrongly, one day they are going to pay. Karma I believe the word is. Yes, they will pay.

male power and dominance...what a load of crock. Almost makes me smile that they think they can win. Well noe in my books.

Just food for thought. ;)

Tae Li.

[joedoe]

Well said.

I think that waxing the hairs off legs and bikini lines is a terrible travesty of human rights and should be banned :)

And as someone else mentioned, so is the wearing of high-heeled shoes.

How about playing contact sports - they cause pain and suffering as well. Not only the playing of the sports, but also the training for those sports. Ban them.

Life isn't always black and white :)

[bamboo_ leaf]

“One thing I have learned by living in Asia is that the western/judeo-christian value and moral system does not apply here.”

Red fist,

That was a very good observation one that could only be made be those who have lived and worked in Asia for any length of time. :)

Even then there are many things that are not publicly shown to others, Asia is Asia a very large part of the world. While I also may not agree with everything that I have seen and experienced there I do know that in talking with many people here many would not understand it. to stuck in the box.

[joedoe]

My apologies to all reading this thread - I am in a bit of a sh!t -stirring mood today. Don't take anything I say too seriously (that is if I am not already on your ignore list) :)

[Ryu]

Why can't the girls in real life be like the ones on here? :(
Tae Li, Jas, Wushu.... where are you?? :D

Red, you're absolutely right about our culture doing the same thing at one point (also wrong in my book) Don't let YOUR OWN culture off the hook :D That becomes simple ethnocentrism.

But Tae is absolutely correct about the suffering of people. Unfortunately it does happen, but when it does we should not simply shrug our shoulders and say "well what can ya do?"
What we do relies on us.

There is one thing I kind of disagree with, and that's the validity of the judeo/Christian values. I have also lived in Asia, and am planning on going back. It is true some of the Christianized cultural aspects don't hold sway, but many of the Confucian and Buddhist values hold the same values. This is what I mean. People are people, and left to intelligence they come to the same conclusions on a lot of things concerning ethics, good living, etc.
Prostitution in Japan is a good example. Even though those laws are not enfoced as much as they maybe should be, that does NOT mean that all Japanese think prostitution is "ethically okay."
There are different levels of morality in ANY given culture. The conservative in Japan and the US will act the same way on many issues. I know I've seen it. I hang around people who ARE that way. (That's why they're my friends :D )

Anyway, you've gotta use your noggin. That's what it comes down to. :) Keep on thinking and caring.

Ryu

[red_fists]

Tae Li.

There is one tribe in Asia that forces metal rings around the necks of their little girls to "stretch" their necks.

Those poor women cann never live without those rings around their necks as their Bodies have become malformed.

More rings more prospects for marriage

Divorce results in removing those rings and letting those women die.

That is their culture, many People of this tribe no longer practice it, but many others do so because "westerners" want to see it and will pay top dollars for pictures.
Right now it is more rings = more dollars from Tourists.

Very sad but true. So the result of western influence was only a shift in motivation for the practice.

[Ryu]

yet they wanted to stop the practice because of the health issues it seemed to cause. :) One of the things I find silly is that some people (Red this isn't addressed to you at all, don't worry) but some people think cultures today are the epitome of what that culture will come to "ethically." Many are still evolving.
As we all are.

Ryu

[Tae Li]

Im also not saying that judeo/chrisitian beliefs and values need be applied in Asia...im not saying that at all. im just saying that its COMMONSENSE ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD NOT TO IMPOSE PAIN APON A PERSON SIMPLE BECAUSE THEY ARE FEMALE!!!!

Im not Asian but im obsessed with asian culture and i dont mind asian tradition blah blah blah, if i had the opportunity to live in china with my chinese partner trust me I would, but if he was a sexist bastaard that i would dump him the river immediately!lol

An Joedoe im not attempting to change the characterisitcs of a women... high heels? come on you can do better than that! waxing?? hair on a womem is really gross....

But what about health? they want their women to bear kids and do all that domesticaed stuff, be a good wife blah blah blah, I mean at least leave the woman her health so she can carry out those duties accordingly...but no....you make them suffer even more.

metal rings around their necks? like i said, it may not happen today and it may not happen tomorrow but i truely truely believe that what goes around comes around.

Tae Li



;)

[Ryu]

Ahhh..... :mad:
Well as much as I'd like to continue the debate, college work calls. :mad:

Well it's a good discussion. :) Don't hurt each others feelings or anything.

Oh and Tae Li,
I wanted to tell you that i think your way of thinking is VERY admirable, and it makes my day to see someone with your compassion and intelligence who wants to make a difference. Keep it up and you will. :)

:( okay... back to work. Goodbye KFO for tonight.

Ryu

[Tae Li]

Bye Ryu!!!!

dont worry its just friendly debate......;)

its my day off uni so have fun in college!!

Tae Li;)

[Ryu]

Thanks!
Later. :cool:

Ryu

[prana]

Originally posted by red_fists
Tae Li.

One thing I have learned by living in Asia is that the western/judeo-christian value and moral system does not apply here.

And therefor you need to judge another culture without being influenced by your own.

And I don't think that anybody can do that unless they have lived in multiple countries and REALLY experienced those cultures.

Look at Prostitution in Japan, illegal, yep.
But at the same time it is one of the biggest accepted Industries in the world.

A Contradiction not at all, but simply a compromise that utilises loop holes in the laws to continue an old cultural tradition way past a "western" law that was passed in 1957.

In old Japan Men were encouraged to visit houses of ill repute or keep an mistress in order to show that they were financially viable.
Kinda like some countries in Europe a few hundred years ago.

Ooops, said too much.

My point being if I tie a womens foot, or if cultural restrictions force them to wear whalebone corsettes to forcibly slim their waists and thus ruin their Health. It is the same and we still do similar things in modern life and many do and have voluntarily done so.

Some of those were pointed out in previous posts.

Just some food thought.

I think you touch on a very good point. For example, on the reflection side, Chinese people see that putting your parents to the old folks home is an extremely terrible hehaviour. In western culture, it is an accepted thing. I don't want add salt here and there but....

the point I am making is, every moment of my life, every step, I am making mistakes left, right and center. And until I am able to step out of my circle of ignorance, I will continue to make mistakes, and I have no choice. Such is life, such is samsara.

But until then, I might be speaking, walking, typing, whatever, and countless people are being hurt by me. Gosh, how many insects were hurt on my drive to work ? Or my walk to the garage ? Maybe, one odd day in the future when people could fly using anti-gravity shoes or something, they would say, ' our ancestors drove cars, killed living beings, mined for resource and polluted our worlds, look now" while they are floating away, with gas masks to prevent dying from the CO we caused.

Samsara Samsara Samsara

[red_fists]

Originally posted by Tae Li
Metal rings around their necks? like i said, it may not happen today and it may not happen tomorrow but i truely truely believe that what goes around comes around.


Until than they will earn their living by mutilating their women on request of strangers.

BTW, you talk a lot of woman being made to suffer.

There are many Cultures where men are also made to suffer, like circumcision at age 13 without any drugs and so on. Most native tribes used disfigurement/pain as a rite of passage for men to allow them to remain a member of the tribe, while women only had to grow up.

But anyhow, the morning green tea calls.

[Tae Li]

I hear ya Prana, i hear ya.

Tae Li.

[Tae Li]

Im not saying that men dont suffer, im sure they do, but obviously its not as common as women which is why not many people hear or know about it.

green tea? i wouldnt mind some nyself actually.

Tae Li;)

im not THAT much of a feminist, i just have some views on things thats all, like other people do.

[Ryu]

GREEN TEA IS EVIL!!!! :mad:

Muahahaha!!!!! I am BACK! I will never study!


:( All right I'm really going now. Just wanted to lighten the mood a bit and my work is boring...

Okay going. I'm gone. See?
work Ryu...work.

Get back to work!! :D

:(

Green tea nothing... I need some coffee.

Ryu (really leaving this time)

[joedoe]

I am just taking the pi$$. :)

But the high heels thing has validity - women do it because they are conditioned to think they look better with them on. However they cause all sorts of problems for women who wear them regularly - often deforming the foot terribly and causing all sorts of foot/leg/back problems.

Now, if you replace 'high heels' with 'foot binding' (or wearing corsets, or waxing the hair off your legs) it is pretty much the same thing.

Anyway, good on you for trying to change things. :)

[Stacey]

Epidemics happen with overpopulatoin, its how the world stay in balance. I feel the pain of those people. Its the pain of liposuctoin on the fat blob of humanity.

[Tae Li]

I wish i was sitting infront of my own computer, im at the local ibrary and this guy sitting next to me has is eyes focussed more on mean that his own stupid screen. argh! what does he think i am? a female demonstrating figure???

green tea? coffee? i need drugs.

lol

at least the topic has slightly changed.

tae Li;)

Ryu, i knoe exactly what you mean? what are working at anyway?

[jon]

Originally posted by Tae Li
Im not saying that men dont suffer, im sure they do, but obviously its not as common as women which is why not many people hear or know about it.


That is HIGHLY debateable, i dont doubt that women suffer a lot of mistreatment at the hands of men. I also dont doubt that many children suffer mistreatment at the hands of there parents. Or races at the hands of other races, or religions...
The buddists say suffering leads to enlightenment, if so i guess we are all at least on the right path.


hehe btw the reason that more is heard about womens suffering that mens is becouse they complain about it more:p
Seriously though you cant draw comparisons like that, its simply not really viable.

Change comes from within, if everyone was doing the same thing we wouldnt have the problem. Its only becouse we all call foul on everybody else that these things continue to only be debated and never actualy changed. We need to concentrate on our own bias and our own misconceptions.
Tae Li you might do well to read up a little of what men go though during war time before making such bold statements as one sex suffers more than another.

Um just a appertiser while you wait for the main meal:rolleyes:

[Tae Li]

his eyes are focussed more on me, mot mean.

excue all the errors.;)

[prana]

Originally posted by Stacey
Epidemics happen with overpopulatoin, its how the world stay in balance.

Thanx Stacey, this is right on the money for me.
Such is our Karma.


Joedoe

You are officially on my Ignore List ! :p :D
hehehe

[Tae Li]

[
Tae Li you might do well to read up a little of what men go though during war time before making such bold statements as one sex suffers more than another. [/B][/QUOTE]

dont put words in my mouth Jon.

I didnt say that mean dont suffer.... but i bet my life that stats will show that females suffer alot more than men.

im not making bold statements.

im gonna research this....

Tae Li;)

[joedoe]

Stats mean squat.

Did you know that they believe that there are almost as many battered husbands in Australia as there are battered wives, except that they are not reported because of the shame associated with being a battered husband?

Never rely on stats (take this from someone who majored in statistics) :)

[prana]

I heard once, not sure of its validity (old India).

If ones husband has passed away, the wife is to be buried or burnt with him. If she so refuses, she is to carry the bones of her husband on her back for the rest of her life, and she shall be condemned for failure to abide by these rules.

Oh BTW, Jon, Buddhist do not say suffering is the way to enlightenment. Gotama tried these techniques (self torture etc) and found no way to enlightenment, he sat down to look for the nature of the mind, found emptiness. Self punishment, is labelling of oneself. In Buddhism, the self is empty. Reminds me of the story of Bodhidharma saying, "why are you all meditating ?", "What are you trying to achieve ?"

[jon]

Tae Li
Im only teasing you first of all so dont take any offence, i know you and you are one of the most level headed people i know. You have also proved to me on many occasions years ago that you had no deliberate bias towards anybody and i respect you for it. Still we all have our little misconceptions, i have pleanty myself and am always on the look out to correct them. That said...

"dont put words in my mouth Jon"
"i bet my life that stats will show that females suffer alot more than men. "
* Your still saying the same thing i was picking on... Its not a proveable arguement and its pointless anyway.
Is it more or less important to be a vegetarian or a carnivore?
Either way you eat life, one is plant one is animal who are you to decide which has more value?
Do you see where im going here, its just me but i get annoyed when people get so focussed on sexism against women. I used to work with a full female crew, i was the only guy. The stuff i heard come out of there mouths i will NEVER forget...
Im talking stuff that made my skin crawl and made me VERY uncomfortable. After they got comfortable having me around they just let fly and it was REALLY scary!
Women can be every bit as bad as men, sexism is not a gender specific disorder.
Its also silly to say one sex does it more than the other, this is like the grass is always greener on the other side.

Just saying that its sexism is the problem you need to deal with, breaking it down into men vs women will not serve any good.

I hope you dont take offense as like i say i know you and know you to be a kind hearted person i in NO way mean this on a personal level its just a statement regarding the comments you have made.

[Tae Li]

yeah well do you know how many women dont report their abuse all over the world???? because in some countries there is no one to report it to???? human rights centres dont even exist in some nations.

Jus cos some men get be at up by their women everyone has a big stick about it, yeah, well for the past 600000000000000yaesr no one gave a **** about a woman being beat up by her husband and everyone looked the other way.

Whats happeneing today to men will never ever ever compare to what has happened to women all those years and continue to happen today!!!!! NEVER!

Every one is looking cos im typing so fast, i think i broke the keyboard.

Tae Li
;)

no, i didnt.

[jon]

Hi prana

"Oh BTW, Jon, Buddhist do not say suffering is the way to enlightenment. "
* From what i have understood and been taught it sure helps, this is just my own path though and i can still respect yours may be different.
I do not mean physical suffering (although this can help and should really be part of the process) its the suffering that comes from hard work though tough times.
Im sure the Dali Lama could say much for the benifit of suffering on his teachings.
Its not something you wish for its something you are tested with.
Some view life like a long test, each stage in your life represents a different question. Its not just the answer you give but the path you choose to understand your judgement.

Im going a bit of the rails but this is more my own beliefs than anything else. Take them with a pinch of salt as really thats all they are worth:)

[Tae Li]

I think that life is a big test.

Jon....ignoring my remarks is the right thing to do cos i can get a bit carried away sometimes.

I hope i didnt pee you off.:)

tae Li;)

[joedoe]

Calm down. My point was that you cannot trust stats.

Yes, women have been opressed and beaten down through the ages and it continues in many places today. Yes it is wrong and it should be changed.

But does this mean that more women suffer than men? Who knows. Likely, but not verifiable. Particularly if you take into account psychological abuse.

[joedoe]

I personally know prana quite well and his understanding of Buddhism seems pretty good. Matter of fact, I think prana should have been a monk :)

Anyway, I think in a way you are both right. I think the aim of Buddhism is to end the suffering by breaking the cycle of life and death through enlightenment. This does not necessarily mean that suffering is a requirement of reaching enlightenment.

Anyway, just my $0.02 worth. :)

[Tae Li]

im calming down and i hear what you say and i do agree but i just dont think that the pain that has been imposed apon women from the very beg. of time can be compared to the pain imposed on men today.

Im off in about 10min, so if i dont get a chance to later i just wanna say that i respect everyones argument and points of view and all of it should be taken into consideration. And i apologise if i got on anyones nerves or hurt anyones feelings.

nothin personal boys.

Tae Li;)

[Tae Li]

I dont know if this is a wrong thing to say but i think monks are SOOOOOOOOOOOO cute with their shaved heads...

so cute....

Tae Li;)

[joedoe]

How do you know how much pain has been inflicted on men through the ages though? You are comparing the pain inflicted on women through the ages to the pain inflicted on men today? Shouldn't you be comparing apples to apples?

[Ryu]

I've got a shaved head!!!! :D And you're right I am very cute!
But my shaved head is more of a MMA look :( Uh oh...
(and I am BACK! AGAIN!!) ;)

Tae Li, I'm working on an exam in Classical and Baroque music.
:)

And the topic changes again! KFO has spoken.
(please forgive my "nutsness" tonight. I am bored. But I will go out to eat soon so...)

Jon and Tae, you guys seem to know each other so I won't butt in :D Might get battered... :( :D

And some branches of Buddhism (and I think most Buddhists in general) say that suffering can actually be used as lessons to guide us into enlightenment. (for example if one doesn't suffer at all, he can't tell that suffering holds us in Samsara, and the way to break is, etc. etc.)
But to suffer needlessly is far from enlightenment. Prana is right about that one. In fact, the job of the Bodhisattva is to eleviate as much suffering from other people as he can. And show them the way to enlightenment.

Gotta go :D

Ryu

[prana]

Originally posted by jon
Hi prana

"Oh BTW, Jon, Buddhist do not say suffering is the way to enlightenment. "
* From what i have understood and been taught it sure helps, this is just my own path though and i can still respect yours may be different.
I do not mean physical suffering (although this can help and should really be part of the process) its the suffering that comes from hard work though tough times.
Im sure the Dali Lama could say much for the benifit of suffering on his teachings.
Its not something you wish for its something you are tested with.
Some view life like a long test, each stage in your life represents a different question. Its not just the answer you give but the path you choose to understand your judgement.

Im going a bit of the rails but this is more my own beliefs than anything else. Take them with a pinch of salt as really thats all they are worth:)

hi jon

Very wise. Truly, such is Karma. Life is suffering.



12. "But herein, Cunda, effacement should be practiced by you:[16]

(1) others will be harmful; we shall not be harmful here -- thus effacement can be done.[17]
(2) Others will kill living beings; we shall abstain from killing living beings here -- thus effacement can be done.
(3) Others will take what is not given; we shall abstain from taking what is not given here -- thus effacement can be done.


"Suppose, Cunda, there were an uneven road and another even road by which to avoid it; and suppose there were an uneven ford and another even ford by which to avoid it.[21] So too:

(1) A person given to harmfulness has non-harming by which to avoid it.
(2) A person given to killing living beings has abstention from killing by which to avoid it.
(3) A person given to taking what is not given has abstention from taking what is not given by which to avoid it.
(4) A person given to unchastity has chastity by which to avoid it.
(5) A person given to false speech has abstention from false speech by which to avoid it.
(6) A person given to malicious speech has abstention from malicious speech by which to avoid it.
(7) A person given to harsh speech has abstention from harsh speech by which to avoid it.
...
...
...


- Sallekha Sutta

When a situation arises, understand that it is the fruition of ones Karma, and given this opportunity, one can undo this karma.


ADD: This is indeed a great discussion, keep it peaceful, very insightful.

[prana]

Matter of fact, I think prana should have been a monk
________________________________________________

I dont know if this is a wrong thing to say but i think monks are SOOOOOOOOOOOO cute with their shaved heads...

so cute....

Tae Li;)

Joedoe, And there, Joedoe is a recipe for disaster, me a monk.

Tae Li, and here again, a recipe for disaster, because I alone will disappoint your ciew of cuteness.

[Ryu]

But I won't! :D

Watch me dance!

http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/johnnybravo/
Come on guys! Dance to ethics and happiness outside samsara!

:D

Ryu

[jun_erh]

this thread is about the people of China being given AIDS, not women's rights. start another thread:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Serpent]

Yeah, right. Cos threads on KFO usually stay on topic until a unanimously agreed resolution is reached, huh!

[joedoe]

Come now, how many threads on this forum actually stay on topic? The subject matter of coversation changes and evolves. It is the nature of conversation.

[prana]

joedoe

Need I remind you, I am a big fan of girls and cars !

[joedoe]

You are simply denying your Buddha nature :D

Cmon, admit it - you could have been a monk :)

[prana]

I am not worthy. Just not worthy...

Now lets go street racing, and look for Tae Li :p

sorry Tae-Li had to pick on ya ...

BTW have a good weekend all.....

[Radhnoti]

I started this one, and it doesn't bother me that it's gone OT...
As an aside, I'm surprised at how often I disagree with Ryu but still respect the guy. :) Come to think of it I've clashed with Jon but I think he's singin' my tune this time. This is the first time I've disagreed with Tae Li, but she seems nice too. I'm 100% with joedoe with everything he's said so far.
Life can be tough for everyone and any group, you'd be hard pressed to find someone that's never felt repressed in some way at some stage of history.
That's my take anyway...

[Ryu]

Being a respectable guy makes it easier for me to infiltrate your mind and bring you to my side. :D

:eek: you are getting sleepy.....

;)

Ryu

[Tae Li]

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9707/22/unicef.report/

check out this web page and READ IT.

It reinforces pert of what i am trying to say.

Tae Li.

[Tae Li]

btw, i think that AIDS thing that is going around in China is really horific and unjustifable.

I didnt mention that before. Its sad if its true, i hpe it doesnt get out of hand, but i guess if its true it already has, right?

Tae Li;)

[jon]

Tae Li
* Dont worry im not taking this to heart, infact ive argued a similar point with many of my female friends over the years. Its just a matter of perception i wouldnt judge you personaly based on it. I would also ask that you do not judge my personality based on my perceptions - people change, perceptions change.
I wouldnt dream of judging you hashly based on this thread, as stated hope you do the same for me :)

Prana
Thank you for the insights as always your understading is a step above.
Can i ask how you found your religion or did it find you?

Radhnoti
* Sometimes the best contacts come about though orginaly being adversarial, ive done it many times myself. I respect your views as well and did even when i was in disagreement with them.

Ryu
"Jon and Tae, you guys seem to know each other so I won't butt in Might get battered..."
* Yes we do know each other :) Still dont let that stop you from adding your imput. She is a great girl and just becouse i know her it doesnt stop you from continuing to be as you were with her.
Besides im pretty sure she would hate to think another guy was avoiding her on account of me... Infact she may kick my ass, and ive seen those kicks:( Then ill be the one getting 'battered';)

[prana]

Originally posted by jon

is a step above.
Can i ask how you found your religion or did it find you?

Jon, Please pardon my reply. I am more so ignorant than all people on KFO combined. But to answer your question quickly...

I learnt MA, my grandmaster made students take refuge in Bodhidharma. There he taught me some Qi-Gong. Being an ignorant 6 year old, I ran around the "kwoon" more so then train.
I also met another great grandmaster, he also taught me the basic breathings, including reverse breath, and 12 other variants. Again being 8 or 9, I was too ignorant to appreciate or learn.
Finally, various many things led me curiosly to attend one of Goenka's many teachings. Again being an ignorant 14 year old, I rebelled against the rules of the center. My first step in Hinayana. But something was missing for me. I wanted to apply what my first masters taught me.
Then my luck came, I came across a Tibetan monk, opportunities arised for me to help him and I was lucky to take it. In return for this small favour, he led me to the teachings of Karma Kagyu.. this was only about 3-4 years ago.

Hope that answers your question :)

[jon]

Thanks kindly for answering my question, you have obviously led a very charmed life. At least in terms of teachers and mentors, i consider myself very lucky in that respect as well.

"I am more so ignorant than all people on KFO combined"
* Ignorence is bliss Prana :) If you are ignorent than i only pray that more follow your lead.
My Hung sifu has also always made qigung and even some religion part of our classes. It has done a lot more for me than i usualy let on but ill never overlook its effectivity.
Again thanks for answering and i hope your well and having fun. All the best
Jon

[joedoe]

No one is arguing that women get the short end of the stick in too many cultures around the world. All we are saying is that for these things to be fixed does not require militant acts of revenge.

Anyway, as I said before, best of luck on your quest.

[Tae Li]

I dont have a quest Joedoe, i just have an attitude atm and a very strong opinion. I have a quest but nothing too serious.
atm my quest is to get to my class on time! but thats ok, the teacher LOVES me cos he does wing chun and he knows that i do MA's as well, so he sortof chats to me instead of teaching the class...lol gotta run so catchya all later!

Tae Li;) Lian Jie lover

[joedoe]

Well, best of luck with your quest and your attitude then :)

[Tae Li]

Hi people....

seeing as this has become a sort of controversial thread I was wondering if anyone has any useful sites ir links that i could look at that focuses on human rights in China....im doing heaps of research for uni and seeing as there are many people here who know a great deal about china, history, its art etc. it would be great for some useful links.

I would love to hear your opinion about peoples rights in china as well! that would be great, just so i can get abit of insight on what people from all over the world really think.

Im in this ubject called war and peace- international politics and throughout the semester we have to keep a diary about some event(s) thats taking place that is poltical and controversial, and everyone seems to be either focussing on the arab-Isreali conflict or war on terror, so i thought...lets head in a another direction.

Im interested in China (and china is linked to kungfu- i have to have some sort of link with the forum if im gonna post on it!) and so im looking at human rights in china, unless there is a bigger controversial issue taking place there...

you the 'one child per family' policy, isnt that sort of bad...cos then the knowledge of kungfu wont be passed on cos there is not enough children and people to pass it onto...but then again that doesnt happen anymore...sorry, trying to relate it to kungfu so that the thread doesnt get moved somewhere else:)


Tae Li;)

[joedoe]

I assume you have had a look at Amnesty International? They usually have heaps of stuff.

My GF spent 7 months in China last year. She could probably give you a pretty good insight into life there. From what I can gather, life over there is not as good as here, but is not as bad as most people imagine. Politically, people still do inform on each other and it does help your career prospects if you are a member of the Communist Party. There is still a great deal of fear among the people.

As for the one child policy, as bad as it sounds it is actually something that they really need otherwise they would have a terrible population explosion. The real problem brought on by the policy is that female children are often left to die because the people want male children. In a few years they are going to have a problem on their hands because ther balance between male and female will become very distorted. DSB will become a major issue and we all know what results from too much DSB :)

On the upside, because people are only allowed to have one child, children are actually highly valued. I don't know about other parts of China, but my GF said that where she was, the community seemed to automatically band together to look after and protect children.

Anyway, back on topic - kung fu does still flourish in China. Many of the old masters are bringing the arts back to China and there is a fair interest in them.

[Tae Li]

Thanks Joe, appreciate the insight:)

but yeah, basically im looking at heaps of sites and reading up on heaps of material and stuff. i really want twoviews...i dont want to take a bias approach or anything.

Tae Li;)

[prana]

hey Tae Li

I think you can see, I definitely have a biased opinion :)

[rogue]

Cultural differences (http://webcenter.newssearch.netscape.com/aolns_display.adp?key=200203191415000239932_aolns. src) and France still sux.