Bak Mei Sifus Around the World

[Kevin Barkman]

Greetings all....

I am always in the middle of compiling genealogical charts to better understand the extent of the Arts that I practice.

It seems Cheung Lai Cheun taught quite a few people who have since opened a club of their own. To date, I have included the following in my charts - but I'd like to make this chart as accurate as possible.

I would be grateful if anyone would be so kind as to add / correct / comment / contribute on anyone in this list. I hope to keep the names limited to those who have learned the entire Art, or who operate their own schools....If this is a successful topic, lets do Lung Ying and Yau Gau Moon next. Please include dates and locations, and who was their teacher too. Feel free to also share stories of your Sifus & the Art

Cheung Lai Cheun (1880 - 1964)

First Generation Students:

Cheung Bing Sum (Eldest Son)
Cheung Bing Fat
Cheung Bing Lam
Chow Fook (1914 - 1996)Hong Kong
So Kim Kwong (Tiger - Hong Kong)
Sin Man Ho (Hong Kong)
H. Yen (Hon. Chairman, HKPMBA)
Lai Hung (San Fransisco)
David Chan (New York)
Y. Mak (Hong Kong)
D.K. Lee (New York)
K.C. Chan
Kong Mien Ho (Barber? - Holland)
Jie Kon Sieuw (Amstradam)
Yeung Shu (Hong Kong)
H.B Un (London, Author of "Pak Mei Kung Fu")
C.T. Tsang
Chan Wah (Texas)
Luo Kung (Futshan, China)
S.H. Chan
Kwong Man Fong (New York - author of BM Video)
Pan Nam Lee
Ng Nam King (Chairman, HKBMA)
Ng Yiu "Big Yiu" (1907 - ?) Author of PM Tig.Fork

Second Generation Students:

(Mark)Chan Yin Wah (Edmonton)1940 - (Chow Fook St)
Y. Ng (Hong Kong - So Kim Kwong Student)
Robert Hui (Chow Fook Student)
Andy Truong (Wah Nam / Australia - Chau Xuan St)
N.K Ng
Lai Sai Kung (Jie Kon Sieuw Student / Holland)
Chau Xuan (Vietnam, Cheung Bing Lam Student)
Dr. Wong Yiu Quang (Tennessee - N.K. Ng Student)

Willie Pang / Henry Zucker / Kwok Kwong / David Garcia - students of Kwong Man Fong

Tsang Chow Tak (London - student of HB Un)
S.K. Mo (Student of HB Un)
Lou Han-Zhong (San Fran - student of Luo Kung)
"Lee" -Student of Chow Fook-teacher to Mike Doucet
Eddie Chong (student of Pan Nam Lee)

(sorry to have missed so many other names!)

Third Generation - well, lets keep it to generations one and two to start, and see how it goes....Lets try to be INCLUSIVE rather than exclusive - lets try to expand our understanding, rather than limit it.

Cheers - Kevin

[fiercest tiger]

you forgot chuk fut wan- monk that taught clc, and before him. :)

what im trying to say if you are doing a lineage chart do the whole lot from the beginning.
peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[South Paw]

Lee Sai Keung was a student of CLC. He taught the art in Surinam. I was told he was the oldest student of CLC. He went to Paramaribo, Surinam, South America in 1968. There he taught PM to the Chinese community.
Kong Mien Ho and Jie Kon Siew were his students. Lee Sai Keung died in 1974. His second son Lee Man Tat taught the art in Hong Kong and third son Lee Man Ho took over in Paramaribo.
Kong Mien Ho came to the Netherlands in 1974 soon followed by Jie Kon Siew. Kong Mien Ho is living and teaching in Amsterdam. Jie Kon Siew is/was teaching in several places in the Netherlands as well as Belgium.
There was also a student of Lee Sai Keung, Li Ket Pui who went to England.

Maybe senior students of them in the Netherlands can give some more and update information.

South Paw

[MarkS]

An addition in the UK, P.Lee (taught by H.B.Un)
Also Chan Tak Tang who I think was also an H.B.Un student but I'm not sure.

Mark S

[mantis108]

I would like to rally support for Kevin's effort to make the chart. He has one nice one made and looks like he is updating the information on it. BTW, Kevin, is C.S. Tang on your chart as well?

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[tnwingtsun]

This is a great post Kevin,the way I've got in my line as follows,Monk (wonder what his mama named him?) Whitebrow,Monk Kwang Huei,Monk Fah Yuen,Chang Lai Chuen,Ng Nam King and Chang Beng Fatt,Dr YQ Wong,and a few out out of my group who Dr. Wong passed on the honor to teach,Tom Murphy,Mike Boring,David(the teeth puller)Camble(He really is a good dentist),Chris Ables(sorry Chris,you were the dog) and Bill Thomson (sorry Bill,you got me into Bai Mei,lol) and others that Dr. Wong graduated while I was gone,the tree splits wide

[tnwingtsun]

Sorry Kevin,the Amercan names I listed came out of what has been called "Dr.Wong's late 70s and 80s group",these guys went through years of blood,sweat and tears to gain the right to teach,some do some don't,when CLC's son came to town he told me he was still learning,Dr.Wong is in his 60s and he tells me he's still learning,so its hard to say who knows the entire system.So if the Generals in the Style that I have met tell me that they are still learning then I guess only God knows the entire system,not trying to be a butt Kevin,just food for thought

[tnwingtsun]

I'm confused Kevin,I would be considered a 3rd gen.,but if I went to New york and studied under Kwong Man Fong I would get to sit on the second gen.list with Dr.Wong.Wong and Kwong are very close in age but a whole gen apart,lol,now I am being a butt,nah,I'm just bored,better go do some Sui nim tau,or better yet work on my Nine Step Push,Don't hate me cuz ya ain't me :)

[Olaf]

Hi Kevin. GREAT Effort!
Jie Kon Sieuw is indeed a student of Lee Sai Keung (=first generation). So please take away Lai Sai Kung from the second generation and move Jie Kon Sieuw and Kong Mien Ho to second generation.
Good luck and thumbs up for the work you did so far!

[CLOUD ONE]

Hi Kevin,
Does your lineage studies include any of the Si fus that don't have a school?
In the list you have compiled, how many are Hakka?

I ask because there seems to be none.

[Ace]

Any idea where in Texas Chan Wah would be?

For that matter, does anyone know of any Bak Mei teachers anywhere near the Dallas, Tx area ?

[tnwingtsun]

Chin Dor(Cantonise) of NY was CLC's student,KMF calls him "Grand Uncle",Chin Dor was the first person to introduce KMF to CLC when he was 22 years old,at that time KMK was working as a barber.

[Kevin Barkman]

Wow - thanks very much to Southpaw,MarkS, Tnwingtsun, Olaf, Mantis108 and everyone else for your contributions so far! I am very pleased to update my European connections, as well as Dr. Wong's students!

This Chin Dor fellow sounds like a serious teacher from what I'm seeing. I don't know where Chan Wah in Texas teaches - I have an old article that simply says he teaches somewhere there.

When you are trying to assemble such an enormous amount of information, it is hard to keep everyone and their students straight. I guess I would only include those in the genealogy who actively teach (or did teach) - even if it is only a small group.

Anyway, this info so far will help to flesh it out a bit. I have a lot of the info down on paper already, but I'm going to wait a few more weeks before setting down a more permanent version. Of course I know it will continue to grow - I thought I'd do a new one once a year. If anyone would like to contribute to this project, I would be glad to mail a finalized version out to you. If you want to send me your particulars - I'd need to know who you are, your school, etc.

Cheers and "Keep it coming"! - kevin

[Kevin Barkman]

Wow - thanks very much to Southpaw,MarkS, Tnwingtsun, Olaf, Mantis108 and everyone else for your contributions so far! I am very pleased to update my European connections, as well as Dr. Wong's students!

This Chin Dor fellow sounds like a serious teacher from what I'm seeing. I don't know where Chan Wah in Texas teaches - I have an old article that simply says he teaches somewhere there.

When you are trying to assemble such an enormous amount of information, it is hard to keep everyone and their students straight. I guess I would only include those in the genealogy who actively teach (or did teach) - even if it is only a small group.

Anyway, this info so far will help to flesh it out a bit. I have a lot of the info down on paper already, but I'm going to wait a few more weeks before setting down a more permanent version. Of course I know it will continue to grow - I thought I'd do a new one once a year. If anyone is interested in having a copy of this project, I would be happy to share it with the schools - but I will post more info on that later.

Cheers and "Keep it coming"! - kevin

[kull]

Why would KMF call Chen Dor "grand uncle"?? SInce they both learn from Cheung Lai Chun.

[tnwingtsun]

I guess because he's higher up on the Bai Mei food chain, I don't know,to make an educated guess I would say because Chin Dor was a top student when Kwong first put on his grasshopper shoes,those were Kwongs words(by words I mean the "Uncle" thing) according to Chin Dor,we've all got our grasshopper shoes don't we?,good question Kull,I'll ask for us both,I'm here to learn also. Peace

[Eric]

Maybe I am misinformed but I belive there is something wrong in your list there.

You list Pan Nam there and then list Eddie Chong as a student of Pan Nam. This is true, Sigung Chong was Pan Nams student (the last I believe). However... Pan Nam was not a Bak Mei practitioner, he was actually wing chun, he taught a style different from Yip Man's style, and some say that it is the more authentic of the two styles (that is what I read, I am not saying this to start an argument). Eddie Chong's Bak Mei comes from Kenneth Chung who learned it from Leung Sheung. Leung Sheung taught Bak Mei before becoming Yip Mans first student. There is a story or two located on the wingchunkuen website that tell of Leung Sheung's first meeting with Yip Man, It also tells of Eddie Chong's trip to China and his training with Pan Nam.

Maybe the wingchunkuen site is wrong, Eddie Chong himself gives some accounts regarding his meeting and training with Pan Nam.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/systems/systems_pannam.shtml

ESR

[tnwingtsun]

You're doing a great job,Thank you for your efforts,I'll print out your list and take it over to Dr.Wongs,so far I've been talking to him on the phone about your list.I'll set up a time where I can take it over to him(His computer is down),he is very busy with his Acupuncher,He enjoys healing and helping people who need it rather than hurting with his Kung-Fu,for that I give him an A+

[MoQ]

I find the expository spirit mostly redoubtable, but along with that, I am wondering if anyone asked any of these people if they wanted to be named on an internet forum, or is that not an issue these days?
Also, if it happens that some on the list are misplaced, illegitimate, or left out, who takes responsibility?

[CLOUD ONE]

MoQ,
My thoughts also. Well done! You are really wise when you want to be

[tnwingtsun]

Wow,what a ringer,I take responsibilty for my posts and the names I listed as far as the people I've met and trained with don't mind being listed.If someones left out or not legitimate then pehaps don't you think by compairing infomation this will be brought out??As for them not wanting to be listed on a forum then why haven't they made up a name or hid in a cave??,I don't want anyone telling me its wrong for me to know my family tree.Is this freedom of speach and knowledge going to cause any damage?,this is far from name calling(master so and so 33 gen was a cross dresser),why hell no!!,come on,should we all stick our heads in a hole.200 years from now,Hmmmmm,I wonder if sifu hong kong and sifu new york were buddist or daoist??,how many schools did they have??,well they had these things called TVs,telephones,Computers(with fourms!)and weird things called books,but somebody decided it was "BAD" to talk of such things,so who really knows??,there might not have been a thing called Bai Mai kung fu,it might be all folklore,geeze,gimme a freaking break,Keep up the good work Kevin

[sui-fuw]

do you honestly think you're big,and strong enough to take all this responsibility.you must have serpassed your teachers.

this forum is just abit of fun.books and exsperience never got on with each other.

are you a woman,if so are you vertuose.if so you will be great one day just stay out of the books they will give you a head-ache

[tnwingtsun]

The people I listed in my line don't mind having their names posted,I am classmates with some and students to others,and have talked with them about this fourm,So whats your point sui few???Do I have to be big and strong to apreciate Kevins efforts in constructing a Bai Mei line??,are you in communist China where free speach is not allowed?,if you don't like what he's doing then just say so,or do need someone's perrmission first,I've posted my line,I'm easy to find,do you come from a Bai Mei school??,if not WTF are you even doing here??,whats your line?,who was your sifu?Hitler,Stalin,Mao-Si-Dung liked to suppress free speach and thought,some people never learn

[This message was edited by tnwingtsun on 02-24-01 at 08:05 PM.]

[meltdawn]

Sui-fuw,

Your kung fu is not good enough to be opening up your mouth.

Please remember what happened the last time you decided to bring up gender, and keep your little fantasies to yourself.

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[MoQ]

I guess I don't get sui-fuw's remark and I wonder if CLOUD1 knows his 'puter is being used...

tnwingchun my remark wasn't directed toward you in the slightest, give it a break...

melty good to see you posting the short quips again, rather than the long, drawn out prosaic posts of late... :D

[sui-fuw]

i forgot your kung fu is alot better than mine.
i promise never to bring your gender into it again.[so much for freedom of speech]i'm also sorry, that the truth hurts,that your fathers wanted boys and to settle for u 2.thats if you know your fathers.

p.s its also true about being virtuos[pure]don't take my word for it,ask your si-fus.[this applys to men also]sorry again i've been ignorant to women with ego problems.

[Kevin Barkman]

If anyone does not wish for their name / school to be mentioned on this genealogical chart, just let me know and of course I will respect your wishes.

Otherwise, I can't believe it would make anyone overly anxious. Most of the names on this list are those persons with web-sites, magazine articles, or mentioned in published books. If someone wanted anyonimity (sp?) then I probably wouldn't have their name anyway!

Anyway, I am only trying to increase public awareness of this art, and also to strengthen the ties between the current schools. Please keep in mind that this list is hardly exhaustive - just a beginning. One day soon it will be put into a very nice record, and shared with any legitimate Bak Mei Sifu that wants a copy of it. I will post more later about that.

Once again, I am trying to be inclusive and bridge building between the "pai"- this is the 21st century - but still, not trying to step on anyones toes here.

[tnwingtsun]

My apologies MoQ,Kevin,I wonder where the Vietnamise schools would fit in on the list,sorry,I don't speak french but they are supposed to have an english version up soon http://www.vietanhmon.org/fbachmi.htm

[kull]

The correct term for older training bother in chinese would be si-hing. Chan Dor is not sigung CLC first student; even if he is still diffrent. Why would Kwong still call Chen Dor "grand uncle" if no blood relation?

[This message was edited by kull on 02-25-01 at 09:27 PM.]

[CannonFist]

The Vietnamese branch of Pak Mei lineage that I know :-

Cheung Lai Chuen, Chang Wai Bok (Dang Hue Bach in Vietnamese), Yip Kwok Leung (Diep Quach Luong in Vietnamese), Chau Phu

Chau Phu also learnt from Cheung Bing Lum (Cheung Lai Chuen's son).

[meltdawn]

tnwingtsun:
Mantis108 would be our French interpreter here. Sheesh, you’d think with all the Cannucks on this forum… ;)

Kevin:
Are you planning a website for this? Seems like it would be of benefit for those who want to see all of this in diagram.

sui-fuw:
"i promise never to bring your gender into it again." HAHAHAHAHA
"p.s its also true about being virtuos[pure]don't take my word for it,ask your si-fus.[this applys to men also]"
Hmmm. So even men have to be virgins to become masters? Somebody should tell CLC and LYK… imagine all that good kung fu that must have died just because people didn’t have sex!

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[tnwingtsun]

meltdawn,I'm laughting at your spelling of the sunshine state where you come from:) Cannonfist thanks for the info on the "Vietnamise connection",I have friends from Cholan(Saigon chinatown)who have both Viet and Chinese names.Now to Kull,are you one of Kwong's students?,if you are and this offends you, you have my appologies,but then again why should I appologise for something that Chin Dor told me??,if you are not offened and just want to get the facts straight then cheers to ya m8,I'm on your side,yes I know what si-hing,sizook,sifu,dai-sifu,sigung,sijo means and the only guess I can have why Kwong would call him that is out of respect.If you talk to Kwong ask him,I would like to know with out getting name calling started in the Bai Mei camp,leave that to the WT/WC/VC guys,theres enough of that crap flying around as there is :) peace Kull

[cricri]

Here's the page in english version about the vietnamese branch

http://www.vietanhmon.org/inglese.htm

[kull]

No need to apologize tn, I wasn't offended. Iam not a Kwong student. It doesn't really matter to me what Chan Dor or other ppl. call KMF. I told ppl. b4 on previous post I learned from my father who learned from CLC.

I was interested b/c in looking at old post when there was some debate on bak fu/white tiger, i came across a post similar to what u said, that ask how old is kwong to be CLC student or something like that, don't really remember. Therefore i became a little interested when u say something similar. But if this something similar to bak fu debate; ppl. don't want to talk, ok doesn't really matter.

Anyway i think "cracker jacks" might be Kwong student. He didn't answer me when i ask though.

[This message was edited by kull on 02-27-01 at 08:21 PM.]

[CLOUD ONE]

Hi there,
Just wondering are you Hakka by any chance?

[sui-fuw]

o.k, MD your teachings suprise me,you make such sense,looks like you won again.

so youre saying,not to have virtue,you can still reach the level of excellence.becase kung fu cannot find away past the sex thing.

did CLC try to reach that level of excellene of the kwong mei monk,or better still "bak mei".i suppose they had sex like rabbits,like you MD the saviour.thank you for such interlectual info.i'll clear this up with my mother as thats what she taught me.

[tnwingtsun]

I know you said you didn't have alot of time but do you teach Bai Mei?,Or at least pass it on to your children.Hate see anything lost in the art.My problem is that I have too much time waiting for my back to heal up(hurt on the job),your father learned from CLC,what are your feelings on posting a genalogical chart?

[kull]

Cloud one-
No Iam not hakka, iam of cantonese origin.

Tnwingtsun-
No i don't teach, and i don't have any children...at least not yet. lol
As far as genelogy chart, it doesn't bother me, i know some ppl. posted it might be of issue to them.

[kalos]

Hey Eric,
Sifu didn't learn Bak Mei from Ken Cheung. He learned it in Futshan while he was studying the Pan Nam system of Wing Chun. I believe from somebody related to Pan Nam.
Just wanted to clear that up..

[tnwingtsun]

When you get this site up, please post a topic,I don't want to miss it and I think its a great idea

[beungood]

I am seeking a Bak Mei ?wing Tsun instructor in the Boston Mass Area. Anyone point me in the right direction? beungood@aol.com

[tnwingtsun]

Since this topic has come up again,the man I
spoke as being a First Generation Student
name is Chen(Seuy)Dor of NYC.

[acuboy]

What about Zhong Luo and his father Mai Yu Qian? They are the real deal.

www.undergroundkungfu.com

[Yum Cha]

A few lineage links:

HK Pak Mei School:
http://www.pak-mei-lai-chuen-association.com/e4.htm

GM Chang's Son's site - Chinese language
http://www.pakmei.org/table.htm

Our site
http://www.aaron.net.au/pak_mei/lineage.html

Kevin, perhaps you can examine these sites, there are many errors in your compilation.

Send me a PM with your email address, and I will email you an english language chart from the HK school, it is good for the 5th and 6th generation (grandmaster was considered 4th, not first by his own reckoning). The weaknesses come with the following generations.

Likewise, it is a can of worms you are opening because there are lots of disputes as to generation and lineage.

Good luck.

[MAC]

Yes, doesn't the Association in Hing Kong already have a comprehensive chart of the CLC lineage ? Last I saw they added an English version too I thought. Of course, this only reflected CLC lineage from him down - that won't refelct Zhong Luo, Eddie Chong or any other lineages.

[Chunli78]

Lee Sai Keung was a student of CLC. He taught the art in Surinam. I was told he was the oldest student of CLC. He went to Paramaribo, Surinam, South America in 1968. There he taught PM to the Chinese community.
Kong Mien Ho and Jie Kon Siew were his students. Lee Sai Keung died in 1974. His second son Lee Man Tat taught the art in Hong Kong and third son Lee Man Ho took over in Paramaribo.
Kong Mien Ho came to the Netherlands in 1974 soon followed by Jie Kon Siew. Kong Mien Ho is living and teaching in Amsterdam. Jie Kon Siew is/was teaching in several places in the Netherlands as well as Belgium.
There was also a student of Lee Sai Keung, Li Ket Pui who went to England.

Maybe senior students of them in the Netherlands can give some more and update information.

South Paw

The name of the third son is Lee Man Hing.

[lkfmdc]

OMFG

it's dawn of the dead thread lately :eek:

[David Jamieson]

It's those darned google-bots propagating the archive material onto the internetamawebs.

so peeps google a word like "glorified kick boxer" and they pull up a thread here that has been dead for months, even years, then they casually respond to it without checking how long the thread has been dead for.

never underestimate the human capacity for oversight. :p

[kfson]

Any new info on Chan Wah (Texas)?