Mind intent (yi) and Fa Jing

[Lobo]

Tai Chi Chuan can also develop the facility of issuing power outside the body to affect other people or bounce people off with a strike. This power is the result of a combination of yielding jing and fa jing (discharging) power. Therefore, it can be said that if one does not have this yielding jing and fa jing skill, one does not really practice Tai Chi Chuan correctly.
Intent is what's necessary. It is the commander of all movement. It is said in the six harmony theory that when the intent is there, the chi is there and the power is there. A movement without intent is nothing. An intent without movement is nothing too. An intent combined with movement that is not applied to an opponent is nothing. When intent combined with movement is applied on an opponent, then something is achieved.


The question is how do we strenghen our Intent so that we can achieve Fa Jing or Linkonjing

It is said that the strengh of YI comes out from a normal person every once and a while especially those cases when a person's life is at stake or saving another.

[bamboo_ leaf]

If you can understand what you just wrote then you should know how to train it.

[gazza99]

Lobo:
It is my understanding that the Yi directs the Qi, and that the shen (spirit) controls the Yi. Is this what you have been taught?
Regards,
Gary

[blacktaoist]

No thought, no analysis, no reflection, no cultivation, no intention: let it settle itself.

peace

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

What a great question and I hope I can help you. From my experiences, I have found that standing meditation/rooting and Qigong practice have helped me with "intent". Also when practicing your form you should concentrate on "intent" big time. You are going against an imaginary opponent, "what are you doing?" "How are you doingit?" Can I use the same technique a different way??
Hope this helps Lobo. Train well.

Damian

[jon]

Lobo= Richard Mooney

Same guy who posted pictures of dead children on the main forum!
I wont discount this type of power compleatly but i will say that Richard Mooney has been proven publicly a fraud on many occasions and that supporting even in text someone who is SELLING video tapes of these apperently secret methods is supporting a known fraud.
I would not have minded so much him just doing that. If i hadnt countless times witnessed him verbaly attacking other forum members in a manner that NO martial artist would be proud of.
As stated his last 'retaliation' against a critic involved posting pictures of dead children. He will never answer an honest critic and makes up poor excuses about his public scientific tests and there conductors.
The plain fact is in a double blind scientific test Richard Mooney could not produse his disired Ling Kong Jing on ANY of his 16 subjects.

Please just do me a small favor and dont fall for this fools tricks, why give money to someone who is openly distroying the reputation of good chinese martial arts schools everywhere.


If by some compleate fluke im totaly wrong and Lobo has nothing to do with Mr Mooney then i appologise for interupting the converstation. Nothing wrong with discussing Ling Kong Jing on an open public forum but i didnt want this to just be a stupid plug by Richard Mooney to save face as his last thread got kicked in the ass!

[RickMatz]

Didn't you like how Mooney (Lobo, in this incarnation - he'll give up and try again under a different name) started talking about Taiji and Fa Jin, and slide right over to Lin Kong Jin?

You should sell aluminum siding, or swimming pools.

Best Regards,

Rick Matz

[Daniel Madar]

what TBT said.

Yi is the most frequently misunderstood element of internal arts, resulting in forceful pushing of the qi around. The result is that most people I have met have a sort of "thickness" to their qi, like molasses almost. Imagine you try to move your arm by keeping every muscle group tensed 100% of the time. You train your intent by unifying it with your action.

To put it in some other ways:

There is no spoon.

Do or do not, there is no try.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Intent.. outstanding topic.. what follows is my own understanding, certainly no claim of "the answer"..

Intent, is knowing.. not believing, not wishing, Knowing.. In the same way that you put the letter in the mail box, and go on about you business "knowing" that it will reach its destination (work with me here, i understand the nuances of the Postal service).. intent is supported by good training, but.. is also independent in some cases.. for instance, the mom that moves an automobile to save her child.. there was no wishing, she simply knew there were no alternatives and she approached the task as though it was already done..

That is how i understand Intent.. i dont "try" to feel Chi, it is there.. i don't fumble with which technique is best suited for the situation, i know that my training has afforded me with enough tools to handle a situation, i just "know" that my natural responses will conclude the situation in my favor.. Now, the other aspect of "intent" is the actions that follow.. If i truly "know" something, there is no question, no doubt.. Just as when we mail our letter, we then go on "knowing" it is done.. we don't go home and call the post office and ask when will it get there, we don't call the destination and ask if its been received.. That is evidence as to the degree which we Know.. it is Resolve.. Once the "intent" has been issued, the "resolve" to move toward its full manifestation is evidence of the sincerity and depth of belief we have in our intent.. The universe responds to our every command, according to the degree which we believe it will.. Just as our individuallity responds to our Intent.. (there's a nifty link there)..

Certainly, we can describe these concepts by various names and phrases according to our individual traditions and lineages.. but, i find that common language (english in this case), when used correctly, gets around some cultrual and traditional prejudices.. So, what i'm trying to say is that we can experience the fullness of our Art by Knowing that it is there, and achieve it through deliberate (resolve) training.. For myself, it all changed when i first "felt" the Chi issued to me.. then, i "knew".. now, i am moving deliberately, no questioning the process..

Be well, "know" your potential, and it will be so..

[count]

Lobo,
It's as simple as walking through a door ;)

[Ray Pina]

It's easier to go from 30 to 60 then it is to go from 0 to 60.

..... Shorten the distance and time and there it is.

Intention speaks for itself. Think of what you wish to accomplish, focus. Don't have a smile on your face.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Good topic, to bad what was written by the poster is not also understood by the one who wrote it.

This I don’t understand, why make statements based on premises that by your posting seem to be very confused.

On line hints or revelations can't help much because one would have to know it already to understand it. It's not a thinking type of thing.

How to strengthen the shen/yi/chi.

The first and best way is to find a teacher that can help you to understand what it is and is not and find it within your self. Unless you’re very talented or have some very good intuition I think it would be almost impossible to arrive at any meaningful way to practice it by your self in a direct way.

IMO language pretty much fails in giving any meaningful descriptions other then what is generally said in many TC practice gyms. So while many can say it IMHO only a few really know it.

If you run in to some one who can show this and has some understanding of it consider your self very lucky follow that person until you can find and develop it within.

in this i wish you luck :)

[Nexus]

If you run in to some one who can show this and has some understanding of it consider your self very lucky follow that person until you can find and develop it within.

If you choose to take those steps though, be sure to ask your guru the financial, emotional and physical labors involved and commit yourself fully.

- Nexus

[Lobo]

Yes you are correct, the Yi leads the CHi. But my question is more how to make it stronger (the intent) not just finding it. A person's strengh in intent is the differance between being able to open a door verses breaking the door down with one kick. One could have the intention of lets say going over to an automobile and trying to pick it up to see if his muscle are strong enough. But if he had a loved one under the car he may be able to actually do it. From what I heard if we are able to create this type of intent while using linkonjin that that is how you can effect people from a distance

[Water Dragon]

To understand how these three concepts interact, you need to look at what each one is.

Yi is the active thinking process associated with the brain
Chi is the living energy developed and stored in the Dan Tien
Shen is the spirit, which permeates the entire body. It is also associated with the aura.

So, you need to imagine the energy in the head (yi) traveling down the spine to the Dan Tien, circle 7 1/2 times around the navel in a counterclockwise direct, it goes through the body exiting the anus (this is different from a fa.rt) it goes to the feet, spirals around the body from foot to head, goes down the front of the body, circles the the navel 7 1/2 times in a clockwise direction, back into the DanTien and comes out the sex organ. This is the real secret of Lin Kong Jin.

[Ray Pina]

When practicing drilling fist, is it your intention to make it "look" like your teacher's, have the same shape, same weight distribution?

Or is your intention to fu(king bust down or through any shielding or bridging the imaginary foe puts up! Have faith in the shape and the tork. Don't just stop there. Follow it up with a heavy secondary blow to fill the opening.

I am just a "white belt" in these matters, but that is how I practice intent. I don't try to get too philosophical wiht it. I think its label speaks for itself. Intention. This is a matter of combat. No time for a willy-nilly mind set. Calm? Yes. But feroscious and overwhelming like a long traveling hurricane swell.

Intention. I love it. I think I have more of a Hsing-I mindset. I like to go right in. But will solve the problems that arise with a more flexible realisticness. If the mass is too much I'll just let it bounce me out while shielding. By my intent remian the same.

[count]

I'm glad you see I was not just being facetious with my door analogy. This is exactly the intent necessary to knock down a door. Have you ever tried to push a door that should have been pulled. That is power that comes from not thinking. If you walk through a door without opening it and your body is developed and alignment just right you will knock it down with intent. That is the difference between trying to externally kick down the door which is much harder to do.

Your analogy of being able to pick up a car off a loved one is another example of not thinking, just doing. But I'm not sure it is relative.

If you tell me you can physically effect someone from a distance without touching them, I would go out on a line and tell you this has little to nothing to do with yi, chi or li. This is not what you train in martial arts. There are no short cuts. Under the guidance of a good instructor and with hard work and sweat you develop your body, mind and spirit to do what is necessary without having to think about it.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Good post count, you and I are thinking alike.

I was going to say it reminded me of a seminar with a famous aikido master from japan. he talked about not thinking comming from intent, and then used te example of lifting a pop can that was empty, you lift with the amount of force that your body needs from subconcoinous, not from concoinous, SP?
if you think first this does not happen but I am sure all have experienced this is one way or another.

[Nexus]

For instance when you kick something that appears to be soft and stub your toe. No person escapes the confines of the earthly realm without stubbing their toe at least once.

- Nexus

[count]

ED, I almost used the soda can anology but I wanted to set up a post with my first post then go in through the "back door", Kind of a bagua thing.:D

Nexus, I totally broke my toe one time kicking a table with 10 boxes or so on top. Turned out the boxes were full.:eek: :mad: :(

Seriously though, that's my interpretation of empty force. This has nothing to do with moving people from a distance. IMHO (bamboo)

[bamboo_ leaf]

“This has nothing to do with moving people from a distance. IMHO (bamboo)”

ouch!! :( Well I had to reread everything I wrote to make sure of what I said.


Mmm don’t quite understand about the reference to the leaf.

I will say a few things on this, not moving people form a distance but working off others intent. From what I have felt and now in the process of internalizing it has totally changed my outlook on how many things are done. At least in the leafs world.

The mind leads the chi follows, is a common saying. What dose this mean and how dose one use it. For me it’s a way of approaching the intent or will of doing something and then following with the action itself.

Many have used walking into the door as an example, most have said it is very natural, all things that I can agree with. But I would add that for some the ability to feel the intention of someone about to walk though the door allows one to open the door just as they walk up to the door.

The person walking has no choice but to follow since their intent has preceded the action. Another common saying, “ he starts late but arrives fist” again referring directly to the ability to feel the intention of the other.

So I think the point is not so much making people move or react against their will but rather with their will unknown by them at a conscious level.

The poster said, “A movement without intent is nothing. An intent without movement is nothing too.” I disagree; I would call a movement with out intent empty, but still useful.

one with intent solid, TC is a way of directly practicing this concept. dose one have to have the idea of an ememy to parcticd it i don't think so. but many use this to build the idea of intention. After you can work with it directly becase you know it.

Intent without movement now there is a very good statement but I think wrong in the postes context. if you look at many IMA systems the higher the level the less the outer movement used. every wonder why? :)

people react to intent if it is strong enough it is called a threat.

It said the highest-level people can practice with out moving. Masters can with a look stop things from happening.

I know that each parent has this look too, I just wish that more would use it. :)

Remember the premise it’s not about making people move against their will, having a strong intent tends to cause people to want to move. Being able to tell when they want to move allows one to “start late but arrive first” to help them complete the movement they want to do.

Try this; allow some one to rest their hands on your arm.
Have a strong intention of moving or expanding against their hands. When you feel their intention to resist this with draw yours. If they stumble forward then you have captured their intention. If not and they tend to follow your arm in then it could mean that you are too tense and need to relax more or your intent still needs to be worked on.

Much of this you really have to feel, the other part is your own ability to sense what is really happening. I would say not easy with out many yrs of practice with people who can do it.


As Danile M. said “Yi is the most frequently misunderstood element of internal arts, resulting in forceful pushing of the qi around”

It takes a while, even working with some one it takes awhile. But for those that i ahve met who can do it, I have no words to describe it. :)

[Zantesuken]

hi hvaen't been on in a while cause school's in the way but yeah.
intent i guess i was talking to a sifu i met today who was really really good. i got to train with him for 3hours. i learned a lot of stuff out of him for that 3 hours :)
anyways my mentality is sort of set in chinese mode so my phrasing might be weird.
so training yi someone said something about standing meditation yeah that's all good to. since your intent comes from your mind then standing meditation helps a lot. it trains you to clear your mind and it memorizes things better. haha see memorize that's not the word i'm looking for but it's the half assed tranlation i can give. one other sifu i knew for a bit had this international tai chi society and he'd been teaching for maybe 20 years or more cause he was pretty old and now he's deceased. he could remember everyone he'd met in his life. now i'm not saying that a normal person can't do that but this guy knew their faces, where they were from and every little thing they ever told the sifu.
so if yi comes from the miind then the postures will definately train it. also i find that pushing hands can help to. when you go back to push out again focus forward. look forward. when you do warmup excercses here comes stupid translation because i do not know the eng name for this: toa yiew? haha i don't knowit ****it! anyways if anyone konws what that is translate it.
but when you do that you gotta train your intent forward as if you're pushing someone.
there's no one particular way to train it but everything helps. do your form and think as if you're fighting someone. you want to sink and deflect their energy and then bounce back at them. man now that i'm sorta backtracking my post has weird phrases haha. anyways nature calls. hope it helps :)

[count]

IMO language pretty much fails in giving any meaningful descriptions other then what is generally said in many TC practice gyms. So while many can say it IMHO only a few really know it.

If you run in to some one who can show this and has some understanding of it consider your self very lucky follow that person until you can find and develop it within.

Many important concepts have been discussed in this thread having nothing to do with intent. Without crossing the line between shen and yi which many posters in this thread have already done, this is my point. You can not feel the intent of high level practitioners. For any action learned there is first understanding and trying, than there is knowing and just doing. The poster said, “A movement without intent is nothing. An intent without movement is nothing too.” I too disagree with this statement. There can be no movement with out intent and intent without moving is only hesitation. A movement with intent ONLY feels empty. When you add in muscle and/or force, then the intent can be felt. It is not empty. The result will causes you to, as Daniel M said, forcefully push around qi.

Much of what you (bamboo) have said in your last post have to do with shen chi. That would be an excellent topic for another thread. But I would say if your intention is to throw your opponent to the ground the use of shen chi is essential in projecting your chi outside your own sphere of energy. But focus and intent are two different concepts. One is the action the other is the thought.

Just a thought :)

[Ray Pina]

Count knows too much. The more I read his posts the more wise I see him to be.

Bamboo Leaf, I agree with what you wrote but don't know what you call it. I stumbled upon it myself about 5 years ago. People's minds can be led. Or, is it simply destiny that we are aware of before the fact.

Example, hmmm: Low level: thinking of someone and then they call.

More practical. You're crossing the street and some retard driving towards you has their head up their but or rather down at the floor or radio. You give them that look, gaze, and they look up, catch your eye and swerve to another lane.

Or, you're trying to perhaps sneak something into a club and the bouncers are kind of tight so you kind of go into invisibility mode while the three loud guys in front of you get pulled to the side and you get waved in.

Is it your mind, focus affecting the outside, or simply the turning off of your mind to allow IT to work out is course for the betterment of all.

OK, too philosophical. I have also learned on my own to not use this to influence others, IE, drunk girls, people making descisions that could be in my favor, gambling, ect. . I consider that investing in future bad karma. I believe we all posses the power of the divine but are not the one mysterious entity. One can get caught up with mind games and power and eventually ruin themselves.

I wonder if anyone can understand this giberish or if I'm simply mad.

[count]

Count knows too much. The more I read his posts the more wise I see him to be.
LOL, Thanks EvolutionFist, 2 compliments in 1 day. I may take you up on your offer from the NYC thread. It's my INTENTION to come to NYC again sometime although, I already have several trips planned for this year and next. But if you get to LA, the same offer holds. I'm not too far from the good beaches too ;)

[prana]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf

The mind leads the chi follows, is a common saying. What dose this mean and how dose one use it. For me it’s a way of approaching the intent or will of doing something and then following with the action itself.

If one focuses, that is simply rests the mind on an area (unlike the misconception of focus, craving), lets pick the right palm. There comes a moment when the mind rests in the intended spot without wavering.


The poster said, “A movement without intent is nothing. An intent without movement is nothing too.” I disagree; I would call a movement with out intent empty, but still useful.

unfortunately, the habit of the mind is a learned phenomena. Such as walking, we take for granted but the minds intent is there at every moment to lift, step, pull back, balance etc. Hence we say, if your mind is truly focussed, your body begins to stiffen.

I think the "movement without intent" is the habitual pattern of a human being, we only learn enough to move it, and we scater our minds elsewhere, and not give a second thought about it. Hence we think it is possible to "move without intent" but underlying subtlely, the mind is constantly and noisily moving our limbs to accomodate our most gross or conscious cravings (thoughts).

If your qi no longer arrives, how can you move the part ? If you mind is not intending, how can your Qi arrive ? If your mind is tamed, how can your non-intention arrive ? So where is the gateway to your center ?

it is like sleep, we are given a chance every night and day to answer that question, but none so stay conscious enough to witness the phenomenon.

Great post Mr Leaf

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

In my own experience, the gateway to the center is through sincerity and purpose.. sincerity, be sincere with yourself and fellow beings.. comitt fully to each choice, including the choice to follow a particular path.. Purpose, live deliberately.. affirm each choice with the deeds to manifest it in its fullness.. it is the quality of choices that determine the quality of your life experience..

With those attitudes one will examine the potential of the art, seek its worth according to their purpose and take the necessary time and effort to find their own center.. each of us has a different "center", a martial artist has a different center than an ascetic monk.. The skilled martial artists blends the physical and spiritual aspects of the whole being, maximizing the experience with an understanding that we are, fundamentally, pure energy behaving in a certain way.. that our consciousness can orchestrate this energy through "sincere and deliberate" intentions.. that we can bypass the dogmatic and indoctrinated thought process and manifest the intention "in real-time"..

Ones center is at the heart of their intentions.. we see the effect in the quality of their art.. we feel the effect when we cross hands.. our center adjusts to the intentions of the other, we neutralize.. our intention is to occupy space where the other is, our Qi makes it so.. the battle is won or lost at the level of intention.. one will have more clarity and resolve to their intentions than another and their Qi will respond accordingly.. (but, part of the intention is to have trained well enough to have the tools to manifest it)..

Whew!! i got too deep for even me.. sorry, guys and gals.. but what the heck..

[Nexus]

Ones center is at the heart of their intentions..

I agree with that, and would like to add that ones center is also ones determination to carry through with those intentions.