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FIRE HAWK
03-15-2002, 12:42 AM
I herd that William Cheung added Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun to his Wing Chun or that he learned Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun and mixed it with his Yip Man Wing Chun is this true ?

zuxingpogi
03-15-2002, 12:56 AM
As far as I know as a student of the Cheung lineage, under chief instructor Dana Wong, it is incorrect or I have never heard of such a statement before. This is neither mentioned in his biography or any of the stories that I have heard of his history. But it would be interesting if it is true.
But until then
Peace
-Bernard

FIRE HAWK
03-15-2002, 02:42 AM
During his teenage years, William Cheung was famous for fighting other Kung Fu styles and winning using Wing Chun Kuen while in Hong Kong. William was a close friend of Bruce Lee and served as his role model for a HK Wing Chun fighter. William then left for Australia, where he went on to promote his own style of Wing Chun Kung Fu, different from the form taught to him by Yip Man. Recently some have theorized that this style was a variant of Hung Suen or perhaps Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. Perhaps someone versed in both systems will compare the forms of both systems to see if indeed this was the other "traditional" Wing Chun system William may have learned from an as yet un-named teacher while in South China or the new territories.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At this website

http://www.wingchun.com/WilliamCheungmain.htm

anerlich
03-15-2002, 05:10 AM
There appear to be some interesting similarities between TWC and HFY. Arguably, TWC looks more like HFY than TWC looks like other YM substyles.

There is unfounded speculation that William Cheung spent several years in mainland China to escape HK justice for certain illegal activities, where he may have met this rumoured HFY teacher. More unfounded speculation has it that Saint Bruce had to leave HK for the US because of his involvement in the same activities.

William Cheung himself has neither confirmed nor refuted this AFAIK. To do so would require a recanting of his rather, er, controversial version of WC history and thus seems unlikely.

And until he or someone related to the fabulous HFY mystery man makes some definitive statement, it remains nothing more than speculation.

reneritchie
03-15-2002, 06:47 AM
As Andrew said, having seen both TWC and HFY almost side by side on 3 or so occaisions, they seem far closer to each other than either does to any other branch (as, for example, YKS and YM look closer to each other than either does to TWC)

There is nothing but *rumor* at this point, and I've heard several different "stories" from all different sides:

- Yip Man learned Hung Fa Yi while hiding from the Yunnan army (after his altercation with the armed soldier in Foshan) in Guangzhou before going to HK and only taught it to William Cheung

- William Cheung went to China before going to Australia and learned HFY from Garrett Gee's sifu or sihing

- Combination of above (Yip learned some HFY and then arranged for Cheung to go back and learn more)

- Gee sifu learned some WCK on the mainland then found Cheung's material, thought it really was more traditional, and engineered HFY

- Gee sifu was a private student of William Cheung's in San Fran (where Cheung sifu always arranged for some time to be spent during his visits to the US) for many years.

Personally, none of these stories really make sense to me (each raises as many questions as theorizes answers). We might simply never know, or wait until Cheung and Gee sifu fill us in.

In any case, while there are similarities, both men have distinct systems that they've put a lot of time and effort into cultivating, so what, if any connection there may be might not be their or their student's primary concern.

Rgds,

RR

zuxingpogi
03-15-2002, 08:12 AM
Ah far more history and clouded controversy to fill the book. I have found many interesting reads, on many sites about the topic. I guess its just another thing we will never know. Some people spend their entire lives searching for answers that may never come. Better spent time on mental and physical training to make yourself a better person.
Thanks guys
Peace
-Bernard

Phil Redmond
03-15-2002, 11:24 AM
I read that Garrett Gee learned Huen Suen Wing Chun. Can someone tell me where the name Hung Fa Yi came from?
PRedmond

reneritchie
03-15-2002, 11:48 AM
Hi Phil,

In the latter stages of writing Complete Wing Chun, Robert Chu (one of the co-authors), while visiting family in SF, was introduced to Garrett Gee sifu, who at the time called his art Hung Suen (Hong Chuan/Red Junk), in honor of the WCK ancestors tracing back to Cheung Ng.

After Complete Wing Chun, the material coming out (through Benny Meng at that point), used the name Hung Fa Yi (Hong Hua Yi/Red Flower Righteous).

If memory serves, Meng sifu or one of Gee sifu's other students, explained that Hung Suen was a public name for the system, and Hung Fa Yi was the private name for it. I think some of their more recent publishings may indicate they don't believe their system came from the Red Junks anymore, so Hung Suen may not have been the best name.

Anyway, far as I know, its the same system, just 2 variant names.

Rgds,

RR

Rolling_Hand
03-15-2002, 03:08 PM
Rene Ritchie sez:
--There is nothing but *rumor* at this point, and I've heard several different "stories" from all different sides.

Expecting people to erase their differences is unrealistic. There's no shortage of provocative statements, watch where you put the decimal point. You could inadventenly pay out more than you owe - Things aren't as dire as you thought, it should be the other way around. In other words, TWC is TWC and HFY is HFY.

anerlich
03-15-2002, 03:46 PM
Expecting people to erase their differences is unrealistic. There's no shortage of provocative statements

But this isn't really the case. There aren't really any "arguments" or "differences" between the two camps (HFY and TWC). There's not the usual exchange of insults and insinuations that characterises the communication between (too) many WC camps.

There may be some relationship between the two, but the only ones discussing it don't know, and those that do (or might) aren't telling.

As a TWC devotee for upwards of 12 years, I got real interested in this connection for a while (it requires far less suspension of disbelief than the Leung Bik/Yip Man/ William Cheung stories), but gave it up after a while as all the avenues of enquiry turned out to be dead ends.


In other words, TWC is TWC and HFY is HFY.

Ah, but the patches on my gi say "Hung Suen Wing Chun". TWC mightn't be HFY, but it IS Hung Suen apparently.:cool:

Rolling_Hand
03-15-2002, 04:12 PM
--Ah, but the patches on my gi say "Hung Suen Wing Chun".

It makes you nervous how things look better on gi than they do in real life. LOL!!! But have faith.

Chango
03-15-2002, 04:25 PM
Hello Firehawk,
I must say that you are not doing to good on setting up a good enviorment for you to learn at the VTM. Keep in mind you have the ability to ask such questions directly to the VTM which has very good relations with both TWC and HFY. It would only be logical for you to ask this question to the VTM privately. This would prevent such bad speculation and wasted energy.
You really should look more into the proper etiquette before asking such questions. If you want to know something about someone you really should ask them directly if you are not confortable with that even a close friend but not the general public. This behaviour makes me question your motives behind such questions. I hope these are inocent mistakes from what the late and wise Siguang Moy Yat would call "young kung fu". The VTM's doors are open to you please be mindful of this.

To address this question. first I have to qualify myself. I have had quiet a few personal encounters with Sibak Gaung William Cheung both in siminars and a night out on the town in Hong Kong! on the HFY side I'm a member of the HFY family at the VTM. So I have to say that to the untrained eye it would seem that the two would have something in common. but as Rene says they are no more alike then any other WCK styles. So any speculation would be only that and would have no grounds in truth. Sibak Guang William Cheung and his Kung fu family has taken enough lip service from those who do not understand it. we should appreciate it for what it is and choose either to learn it or not. but not knowing that system and trying to speculate on it's so called "true origins" is a real diservice to TWC and in the end a real disservice to yourself. Sibak Guang William Cheung has been a guest at the VTM a few times and has been generous with his information and the sharing of TWC.

On HFY's origin and history I can only say this.
Siguang Gee has presented the history of HFY to the VTM. At that time the all of the VTM members had been of the Yip Man lineage. So there is no reason for bias! The information that Siguang had provided had been checked and cross checked not only by the VTM. But several reputable non-martial arts museums in mainland China. And it comes back as the best posible representation of Wing Chuns history to date! some may argue points here and there but it historically no other lineage has laid out such a conclusive representation of the history. this is not me or the VTM talking this is what has been confirmed by these museums! All of the others have problems in logic and historical controdictions. So to asume that HFY is anything but what it is would be laughable on any level. Anyone that has understands the HFY can also confirm how unique it is just by it's content. THERE IS NOTHING ELSE LIKE IT PERIOD! firehawk you have a opertunity to find out what I mean. So please just do that and lets not use our time spinning our wheels with the public. If you want to know something come and find out don't take other peoples words for it. once you experience it you can then make these calls for yourself. HFY like all anything else may not be for everyone. I'm just glad the I found it becuase I know it is for me. thank you for your time.

Chango (saat geng sau)

FIRE HAWK
03-15-2002, 06:22 PM
Sorry the only reason i wanted to know if William Cheung learned Hung Fa Yi is because so i could look in his books and get an idea on what Hung Fa Yi might be like i was not trying to cause any trouble.Again sorry i have all William Cheungs books and i found that article and so i thought that William Cheungs Wing Chun might be the same as Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun but i see that they are not the same Wing Chun Arts .I just wanted to know some more about Hung Fa Yi thats all .

reneritchie
03-15-2002, 06:39 PM
RH - Huh?

Chango - Good stuff! A couple quick points, however. First, though probably unintentional, your response on "etiquette" (it's not actually etiquette that you're describing) could come off as a repression of communication and sharing; the very thing, it's my understanding, the VTM tries to promote. There's really no such thing as a bad question, just better and worse ways of answering. For an example, I was recently questioned on the wingchunkuen.com board about some points Leung Ting raised on my system. I didn't try to shut the person down, but answered each point, one by one, and tried to back up my statements with facts anyone could themselves verify. No one has anything to hide, so if someone asks if SNWCK or HFY or GLWCK come from secret Tibet Yeti teachings, we can just answer "no" and realize that sometimes enthusiastic questions are the price we pay for making information public.

Second, while I respect everything you guys are doing, as you're aware, a great deal of real historical information, as published by scholars both here and in China (Qin, Murray, etc.), contradicts the very core of all known WCK creation stories, including HFY. To state otherwise without providing specific references, IMHO, just confuses people who might assume the stamp on the cover means all's well inside, and even in the case of finding references (you can find all sorts of "historical" references in China, even about modern events), due to the contradictions, it is still impossible to speak in absolutes.

Rgds,

RR

FIRE HAWK
03-15-2002, 06:50 PM
Next time i will be more careful on what i ask most of the things i post are just questions on things that i want to know about .I never thought that the William Cheung post would cause so much trouble next time i will think before i post something.Again my intentions where only to learn more about Hung Fa Yi and not cause any trouble .

Rolling_Hand
03-15-2002, 06:52 PM
In your effort to be fair, you may be shortchanging people who gave more while rewarding those who didn't do much - Hawkin Cheung in Complete Wing Chun!?!?

Where're Moy Yat and Victor Kan?

Chango
03-15-2002, 08:47 PM
RR,
I'm not controlling what questions to be asked by Firehawk. There is just a proper time and place for every thing. as you know every time TWC's origin is brought up there seems to be an argument. Sibak Gaung William Chuen has explained where he learned you can either take it or leave it. Then to go a step further and connect it to a HFY in a public format doesn't help matters. This was a honest mistake by Firehawk. So I just let him know that these question can be better answered in a private manor by a qualified neutral individual so there would not be attacks by the anti-TWC and the anti-HFY and even anti-VTM elements that do exist. I have a healthy respect for TWC. I found that Sibak Guang and his group has been nothing but helpful and willing to share and explain TWC. So I did not want to see this turn into a flame. So no I'm not doing anything that will
be repressive of comnication and the spirit of sharing. In fact I'm preserving that spirit! I hope you understand that.

Chango

anerlich
03-15-2002, 09:20 PM
It makes you nervous how things look better on gi than they do in real life.

Dude, when I'm wearing my gi and training at my school, that *IS* real life. YMMV.

Rolling_Hand
03-15-2002, 09:46 PM
This ensures your victory in the court of popular opinion - If anything, you're wearing pretty. Don't give up your gi.

anerlich
03-15-2002, 11:23 PM
I could care less about the court of popular opinion.

But, since you raise the subject of popular opinion, are you trying to grab the Whipster's title of #1 PITA on this forum?

sunkuen
03-16-2002, 01:18 AM
I'm positive you'll fit right in at the VTM!!!

Don't let that bada$$ Chango scare you!!!

P.S. Chango my man don't worry about flame wars here....you can't even f.a.r.t. too loud without getting Edited,Deleted or Banned!!!:D (_,_)
&

reneritchie
03-16-2002, 05:06 AM
RH - Hawkins Cheung appears in Complete Wing Chun more than some of his classmates for the same reason my sifu, Ngo Lui-Kay appears more than some of his classmates in the YKS section - availability. Due to our connections with them, it was easier to discuss the project, earn their support, and work out the photos. No rocket science there. If someone has publication quality pictures of Moy or Kan sifu plying their trade, can get permission to use them, and is kind enough to send them my way, I'll certainly (and would be honored to) use them when/if we put out an update.

Chango - I understand what you're saying but if you look back at the history of Firehawk's posts, he's asked all sorts of questions from "is Cheung Bo WC connected to Gulao?" (which I answered"no" to, btw 8) ) to "is there Bak Mei in Nanyang WC", to several others along similar tangents, and you didn't scold him about any of those, right? They didn't disrespect Cheung Bo or Leung Jan or Cho On, the provided opportunities for those who know their legacies to discuss them and share them. And hey, maybe a newcomers excitement will even see something that jaded old veterans hadn't considered, so in a sense is worth considering and maybe even encouraging. I also respect TWC, HFY, and every branch, sub-branch, interpretation, etc. of WCK, but not in a religious way where's its blasphemy or heresy to question them. It's human nature to investigate. People question whether Shakespeare really wrote all his plays from scratch, whether Oswald acted alone, what happened to the dinosaurs, whether you can travel faster than light, etc. And as we question, we slowly pull our way along the path of knowledge (acknowledging a few bumps along the way 8)

(and I daresay, if people embraced questions and were up front and engaging, there wouldn't be such anti-anything movements - those are usually born out of silence leading to ignorance.)

Rgds,

RR

Chango
03-16-2002, 11:04 AM
RR,
I think you missed my point here. I did read firehawks post history. I choose not to handle things the same way you do. I think what you don't see is that the flow of things went in as if to ask a group of people a question about a particular person with that person setting right there at the table. So that is why I asked him to just direct his question to the VTM directly. This stops the waste of time about how things have been asked. Sort of like this conversation. In the future he will direct his questions directly to the party that he has the question about. That makes for more effiecent conversation. So it is not a religious approach just one to help someone understand a better way to approach such dialog. with out offending those that are more sensitive. I find it strange explaining this to you. I think you know how it is when dealing with more then one lineage. Firehawk has e-mailed me and things are all forgotten there isn't a problem just a misunderstanding. Everything is worked out and we look forward to having him at the VTM!

reneritchie
03-16-2002, 11:38 AM
Hi Chango,

I didn't miss the point, I just think a broader point (pun intended) is being missed. If you ask any question to a single party behind closed doors, you will get (or not) a single answer. If he asks the VTM, he will only get the VTMs answer. By asking here, who knows what else he might get? Maybe a senior William Cheung student from the past will read it and it will spark something? Maybe a person who knew Gee sifu in HK or China, or his sifu, sihing, etc. or one of their students could stumble across it (I get messages all the time from Heshan, Foshan, Guangzhou, HK, etc.) and clear some things up?

The VTM, while they do a lot of work, is certainly not the final answer, just one voice among many, and I'm sure we all enjoy the richness and benefits of multiple opinions and different sources of information.

(And you still should have stuck up for Cheung Bo and Leung Jan on the previous question if you felt that strongly about it 8P )

Anyway, I think we agree in large part, just have different perspectives and experiences in the small.

Rgds,

RR

Rolling_Hand
03-16-2002, 03:38 PM
--are you trying to grab the whipster's title of # 1 PITA on this forum?

WH likes Salsa, and you do Cha Cha Mumbo!!!

Rolling_Hand
03-16-2002, 03:48 PM
--No rocket science there.

You don't like going behind anyone's back. You prefer to be aboveboard. Acting in your interests needn't be mercenary. But be careful about appearing callous. Carefully gauge the situation as it unfolds - There're more than one tiger on this mountain.

yuanfen
03-16-2002, 04:08 PM
sunkuen-flame wars/ Not if you can chew gum at the same time.
A chi blast and chewing gum can be coordinated.

RH: Do you cha cha during donuts or wc or both or neither.
Are you also whipping hand? During cha cha, salsa, neither or both?

Rolling_Hand
03-16-2002, 05:04 PM
Your ambition knows no limits, but you can't handle full swing - You need to practice more and of course that's for your own good!!!

Chango
03-16-2002, 05:55 PM
Rene,
I went back to reread this thread to see where I was not clear. Maybe I can be better understood by giving you a prime example. I will do the same here. In your post you list all of the socalled "rumors" well let me ask you this question in public which one do you think is true?

<snip>1 Yip Man learned Hung Fa Yi while hiding from the Yunnan army (after his altercation with the armed soldier in Foshan) in Guangzhou before going to HK and only taught it to William Cheung

2 William Cheung went to China before going to Australia and learned HFY from Garrett Gee's sifu or sihing

3 Combination of above (Yip learned some HFY and then arranged for Cheung to go back and learn more)

4 Gee sifu learned some WCK on the mainland then found Cheung's material, thought it really was more traditional, and engineered HFY

5 Gee sifu was a private student of William Cheung's in San Fran (where Cheung sifu always arranged for some time to be spent during his visits to the US) for many years.

these are your words I just took the liberty to number them for you. If you do not choose one then please explain to this public forum your theory as to where TWC came from. If not from where Sibak Guang says?!! What is your theory on HFY and it's origin as well?!

(LOL!) no spin or fence riding please just what you think and why!!! stand by your words even if you offend! is this the proper time or place for this Rene?

Here is another example.
You having been a person that has done alot of research and you have a good relationship with many wing chun families. But how are you viewed by your own extended kung fu family in China? What do they think about you? How do they feel about you speaking for them?

Now knowing that these questions can do no good on a public forum is this something I should be asking here? should I be asking these questions if I know the answers? should I be asking these question if I have your personal E-mail and I can get the answers myself. Of course these are not the same situations but this is just a way to bring it into perspective. I know that you have in the past have tried hard to define what is Chinese tradition and what is not in the martial art world. But I think this one falls under just basic proper time and proper place. I will give you the last word. I find it very hard to balance all of this chat and training time. I hope you see my point. I do however understand what you are saying. I think you miss what I'm tryng to point out and how it applies here.

LOL don't break wind at a funeral and ask at the top of your voice "who died in here?"

Don't go to a man's wedding asking him if he seen the rack on the brides maids.

Don't ask "who's buying the beer" at a AA meeting!

don't ask a man's wife why she does not keep in shape like his ex girl friends.

come on perfectly normal questions if not at that time or place.

anerlich
03-16-2002, 07:12 PM
--are you trying to grab the whipster's title of # 1 PITA on this forum?

WH likes Salsa, and you do Cha Cha Mumbo!!!

Interesting answer, which I'll take as a "YES!" to the question.

Rolling_Hand
03-16-2002, 07:17 PM
Is this called Rene Ritchie Blue or TWC's Dim Mak?

reneritchie
03-16-2002, 07:32 PM
Hey Chango,

If you actually read the reply you quoted, you'll notice I stated that I don't think any of them properly or fully explain things. If I did, I wouldn't waste any time on it (like I don't on the origins of Cho Ga now that I understand them).

As to the rest, while I don't jump through hoops, I'll share what I can. I don't know where TWC comes from. As you know, I see some problems with the Leung Bik story (as I, and others, including some TWC people, have posted many times). There appear to be elements distinctly Yip Man in the system, and elements which don't conform to Yip Man or Leung Jan's branch. Since its taught (or at least mostly taught) primarily in English, and Cheung sifu has claimed to have developed some aspects himself (the elbow/knee watching, the later knife set, perhaps the entry movement), it could be part ancestral, part modern (as the other systems are).

How am I viewed by my own martial family? To my face, one on one and in gatherings, without exception, they have been incredibly gracious and supportive (sometimes embarassingly so), in the US, in HK, and in China.

I don't mind you asking these questions at all, and I don't mind answering them. If someone finds a mistake or wants to offer a correction, I can only benefit and learn from it.

And, on a Wing Chun Forum, among Wing Chun brothers and sisters, what better time and place?

Did you ever see Sam say people shouldn't discuss Fut Sao? (You didn't complain about that either). Did you ever see KJ say people shouldn't ask questions about Ken Chung? I've never seen the Leung Ting folks demand people not ask questions about him, and they're seemingly endless.

Again, I believe if you only complain when something affects you personally, its not a truly moral complaint. If someone defends something they disagree with, because they know it's right to do so, that's virtuous (there's some old saying about not agreeing with what people say but defending unto death their right to say it ;) ).

I do see your point. And I hope you notice I stay away from personalism. I don't ask what your personal opinion is on a subject (as a VTM member, I assume you will post all information you have, regardless of your personal opinion), and I don't ask how your extended Moy Yat family feels about your group. That's petty politics and I could care less.

And remember, if it wasn't for forums like this, and people like me asking the kinds of questions I do, and posting and writing the kinds of information I do, you may not have even heard of Hung Fa Yi (or at least not when you did), let alone be able to scold someone else for asking about it. (How's that for poetic ;) )

Don't mean to bite into your training time, or to hog the last word. I pretty much think I've exhausted this subject, so if you want to offer me any corrections or insights, I leave the podium to you 8)

Rgds,

RR

sunkuen
03-16-2002, 08:17 PM
CAN YOU SMELLLLLL WHAT THE RENNNNN IS COOKINNNGGGGG!!!

anerlich
03-16-2002, 08:25 PM
I for one am going to continue to speculate and ask questions publicly on this forum on issues that interest me.

My "extended Kung Fu family", TWC, is under the microscope here also. I've seen nothing to take offence at and honestly fail to see anything related to the subject at which a reasonable person would. Anyone who takes offence to my posts can go back to my Sifu if they wish, though I suspect his attitude would be similar to that taken by a rational adult to a juvenile telling tales out of school.

It is worth noting that a statement by Messrs Gee and Cheung, individually or together, perhaps on the VTM website, could clear this matter up for all time. As Benny Meng and my sihing Alf del-Brocco have collaborated on an published article, there is a precedent.

I thought the VT Museum was meant to be about determining accurate history. This would seem like a good issue to tackle, and probably fairly simple for the right people to resolve..

Chango
03-16-2002, 08:33 PM
<snip> Don't mean to bite into your training time, or to hog the last word. I pretty much think I've exhausted this subject, so if you want to offer me any corrections or insights, I leave the podium to you 8)

Rene,
With a invitation like this I cannot resist:D I thank you for being aware of the fact that my responses may be delayed and sometimes nonexisting becuase my training time out ways my desire to express my opinion to a lot of people that I might not ever get the pleasure of meeting in person.

<snip> And remember, if it wasn't for forums like this, and people like me asking the kinds of questions I do, and posting and writing the kinds of information I do, you may not have even heard of Hung Fa Yi (or at least not when you did), let alone be able to scold someone else for asking about it. (How's that for poetic )

Thank you for bringing Huen Seun to us. So that the nonpublic version can come to light(HFY) :D I must give credit where credit is due. (insert single hand applaude) you should reread the post here. I did not have any problem with any question you had. I have no problem with forums like this one. In fact I think you know that. hell you are on every single forum or list envolving WCK that I have ever subscribed on well except one. you have quite a bit of cyber coverage! I don't know if I had the time I might do that myself. Again there was no scolding just a suggestion to ask private questions to the parties envolved. I think my examples speak for themselves.

<snip>Again, I believe if you only complain when something affects you personally, its not a truly moral complaint. If someone defends something they disagree with, because they know it's right to do so, that's virtuous (there's some old saying about not agreeing with what people say but defending unto death their right to say it ).

To be honest with you RR I only read the post that would possibly affect the VTM, HFY, or Moy Yat lineage. I'm on this forum for myself and nothing else. you may have a more noble cause in edjucating people on how you see WCK or WCK as a hole but I will be the first to admit that this is not my goal when posting on this forum and others. I simply do not have the time nor do I long to be reconized as a athourity on WCK. You may be different you may not. but that is not my concern. I will complain where I see something wrong. :cool: I cannot speak for everyone and to be honest I do not have the desire to. I hope you see what I'm saying by now. I think this post has had more then it's share of my attention and deserves no more. thank you for your time.

Rgds,
Saat geng sau

sunkuen
03-16-2002, 09:28 PM
Chango and CO. are like the African Killer Bees....Get too close to the beehive and they are gonna start buzzin'!!!:D

Sabu
03-16-2002, 10:49 PM
Too much "bok! b-bok! b-gok!!!" going on...! You guys sound like my grandmother's chickens! We are all brothers in Wing Chun, or are we not?!?! Go lay some eggs, if you must...!

But don't forget tan sau, bong sau, lap sau, kwan sau, jit sau, gan da, fuk sau, wu sau, biu sau...

yuanfen
03-17-2002, 04:08 AM
enough bok bok and you could make a book out of it
and a new edition could be a book-book.Never underestimate the distinction between bok and bok.
OTOH, FWIW- bok bok is an important mok jong step-the mok mok
or is that the biu biu. I forget- gotta relearn the slt as Rolling hand suggested.

Rolling_Hand
03-17-2002, 02:26 PM
Recently you cha cha mumbo too much...!!!!

Can you handle FULL SWING ?

yuanfen
03-17-2002, 04:01 PM
Rolling hand ::Dances and dances. Can you nautch, bhangra,
obanga, santhali?

Phil Redmond
03-19-2002, 08:27 AM
>Can you nautch, bhangra, obanga, santhali?<
Are these native Indian dances?
Phil

yuanfen
03-19-2002, 11:20 AM
Nautch- is a generic umbrella of dances in India.

Santhali- is a tribal round dance of the Santhals- an aboriginal
tribal group in east India.

Obanga- generic umbrella for Muscogee Creek(American Indian)
dances including the "stomp". The true obanga is sacred.

But
the stomp has influenced a well known late late night inter- tribal social group dance known as the "49 er"...(around a fire. alternating boy and girl) spreading from Oklahoma with the dance leader making up songs and others responding.
An oldie:
------------------------------------------------

""Oh my dearie, how can i ever forget you
That first kiss you gave me, made me love you
Eiyah Eiyah heh heh
Eiyah Eiyah heh heh

After the dance is over dear
I'll take you home yet
In my one eyed Ford
Eiyah eiyah heh heh
eiyah eiyah heh heh"""
--------------------------------------------------


((before dawn's early light.......BTW)))

yuanfen
03-19-2002, 11:27 AM
The Bhangra is a very very enegetic(non classical) village group dance with hand drumming from the Punjab in India. You can see it in some Indian doings in the UK, Canada and the US in places with large
Indian (specially Sikh) population.

Sabu
03-20-2002, 12:38 AM
All you need is ......?

yuanfen
03-20-2002, 01:43 AM
LOVE?

hunt1
03-24-2002, 08:14 PM
I understand that at one time Garrett Gee shared a school with Chris Chan.He did not teach WC.Anyone ever ask Chan Sifu about Gee Sifu's WC.It might help end the speculation.

Chango
03-25-2002, 02:27 AM
Sigaung Gee's blood family has a wealth of Kung fu history. However He did not teach Wing Chun to the public until later. If you are curious you should contact the VTM for information. Here is the web site you can just drop a E-mail.

http://home.vtmuseum.org/

I hope this helps those that are wondering.
Chango (saat geng sau)

reneritchie
03-25-2002, 07:01 AM
Hi Hunter,

I believe Gee sifu did teach some WC (then called Hung Suen) prior to the recent publicity. John Murphy, the gentleman kind enough to help us with Complete Wing Chun, is one of them, and he might have had some Chinese students as well (Matt Kwan among them). Who the earliest ones were, and when they began, I'm not certain.

To my (limited in experience) eye, Chris Chan sifu's sytem looks more like Yip Man system, while Gee sifu's looks closer to William Cheung's. Gee sifu was, when I had the good fortune to meet him, very complimentary towards Chan sifu and his skills, which was heartening to see among WCK teachers who often don't have kind words to say about each other.

Rgds,

RR

Chango
03-25-2002, 10:49 AM
My point was that I don't think Sigung taught WCK publicly at that time when Chris Chan was teaching it. But once again you can get a better view of things by just contacting the VTM direct. :cool:

<snip>To my (limited in experience) eye, Chris Chan sifu's sytem looks more like Yip Man system, while Gee sifu's looks closer to William Cheung's.

I'm not sure what your goal is by this statement. Those of us who train HFY would have to disagree with you on the "looks like William Cheung's"maybe you should further explain what you mean. Wouldn't William Cheung's Kung fu be considered Yip Man's system? I think it would be interesting to hear your take on that subject. I think statements like this help to fuel such idea's that started this thread in the first place. you might say the due to the fact that both HFY and TWC do not use a pegion toed stance to start with like other WCK. so you might tend to lump them together. But if that was the case then why are not talking about Gu lao as well. I mean Rene if I look on the front of your book "the complete Wing chun" the argument could be said that what Robert Chu is doing on the cover "looks like William Cheung's" also. I would think someone that has done so much coverage would be able to explain the differences a little better. But it could be that you only got to the surface of each of these systems and did not understand them beyond the use of the "goat holding stance" If this the case why don't you just classify them as pegion toed and none pigeon toed WCK (LOL) maybe you should have stopped when you said "To my (limited in experience) eye" I mean if that is the case what is the need in going any further? That is why I direct people to other valuable resources such as the VTM and different publications covering the subject becuase I'm not one to speak for some one else. especially if (how did you say it ?) my experience is limited. beleive me if someone had a question on Yuen Kay San I would not be eager to jump in as a source of information on the subject. Because I have only about a half of a dozen Sifu's that do this system. I don't think it would be fair to that system or the person asking the question if I started to compare this system with others saying it is like this or that. I haven't even seen any other form of thiers other then SNT. How could I comment on the rest of the system? by the way have you seen any other form outside of SNT in HFY? :confused:

reneritchie
03-25-2002, 11:30 AM
Hey Chango,

I think you're familiar with my view on this. Put Chris Chan, another Yip Man instructor, Garette Gee, and William Cheung on tape, have a casual observer watch them, and the first two will look more similar to each other than they would to either of the latter two, and the latter two would look more similar to each other than they would to the first two. (Heck, do it with your own Friendship Seminar Rochester tape). I was painting Hunter a picture of why I didn't think there was a connection (teacher/student) between the two, and I think it came out rather clearly.

As to your points on "going straight to the source", this is sometimes good, sometimes bad. Sometimes a "source" doesn't care about you and will either not answer, answer shortly, or will disinform. Sometimes a "source" has other interests than the straight out facts and will answer in keeping with those interests ("Shucks, no, not really, I can't teach you to kill 3 people in 5 minutes through nipple-point shock system and I didn't really teach the SEALS or CIA, and yes I am too young to have learned directly from Robin Hood" is probably not the answer you'll get when calling the people with the full page miracle adds in MA magazines). This is why it's best to have *multiple* sources (and no self-respecting, professional institute or publication will usually run a story that doesn't have multiple sources (and hopefully some balance)).

Hope you appreciate, and will eventually reciprocate, the courtesy extended your way. As you well know, I go out of my way to be nice and polite to you and yours on these threads. Please don't take advantage.

Rgds,

RR

Rolling_Hand
03-25-2002, 04:11 PM
--Wouldn't William Cheung's Kung FU be considered Yip Man's syetem? - Chango

IMO, absolutely!!! 100%Yipman+100%Leungbik= TWC
Sigung Cheung has had said it many times in public.

--I mean Rene if I look on the front of your book "the complete Wing chun" the argument could be said that what Robert Chu is doing on the cover "looks like William Cheung's" also. - Chango

Well said,
Is Robert Chu a certified TWC Sifu under William Cheung?
If not, why did he post as a TWC man on the cover?
And what's Robert Chu Wing Chun?

--I was painting Hunter a picture of why I didn't think there was a connection (teacher/student) between the two. - Rene

LOL!!! I was painting Yuanfen a picture of why I didn't think there was a connection (YMWC/XXWC) between the two. Though it looks similar, the context couldn't be more different.

Chango
03-25-2002, 07:36 PM
just a few points Rene,

--Put Chris Chan, another Yip Man instructor, Garette Gee, and William Cheung on tape, have a casual observer watch them, and the first two will look more similar to each other than they would to either of the latter two, and the latter two would look more similar to each other than they would to the first two.

But up on qualifying yourself to jump in and answer the question. Did you ask youself if you could offer more insight then the "casual observer" especially since this forum contains both HFY members and Yip Man lineage members. which you are neither. Just so happens I'm a member of both. yet I find a struggle from you on the subject of these systems. You have cataloged these systems that is fine and that was something that was needed in the WCK. But there is a difference between cataloging these two systems and learning these systems. This is my point Rene it's not personal it is just the facts.

--As to your points on "going straight to the source", this is sometimes good, sometimes bad. Sometimes a "source" doesn't care about you and will either not answer, answer shortly, or will disinform. Sometimes a "source" has other interests than the straight out facts and will answer in keeping with those interests

let's not mix words here Rene. Who do you think it is that is not giving a straight answer or refusing to answer. Siguang Gee, Sifu Chris Chan or Sibak Gaung William Cheung? If you feel that way about one of these gentlemen then you should just come out and say it. So we all will know where you stand. Please don't dance around what you just said here. you must think this applies to one of these Gentlemen and pillars in the WCK comunity. Maybe I'm just a loud American here but we beleive that a man should be able to say what he means and have the guts to stand up for it. Anything less just causes me to loose respect for that person. So I'm offering you a chance to do so here Rene.

---Hope you appreciate, and will eventually reciprocate, the courtesy extended your way. As you well know, I go out of my way to be nice and polite to you and yours on these threads. Please don't take advantage.

Rene call me crude I just state the facts as I see them I do not have time to worry about being polite. I feel if the truth hurts then the pain will teach a valuable lessons. I admit that I could be wrong on some issues but that is why I bring them to your face so you can clear it up if I have it wrong. That is why I say go to the source. You should not take this personal. If it was personal I would not be so gracious about your tone suggesting caution. keep in mind this is not ball room dancing that we are disussing here. So such tones can be taken as a physical challenge. Knowing you from previous interaction. I assume that you do not mean to come across like that so I will excuse it. So I will extend the same courtesy to you. So please do not take avantage my courtesy.

Rgds
Chango :D

hunt1
03-25-2002, 08:48 PM
Looks like i stirred things up.Chango you need to chill.I dont think anyone is trying to be disrespectfull to Gee Sifu.Asking questions is human nature.Unfortunatly William Cheungs old stories have tarnished all WC to some extent.Also any information coming from a source with a vested interest in that information is always suspect.Its just the way of things.
Renee I suppose what I am asking is this.Gee Sifu taught WC before your book came out.The Bay area has many WC teachers.He shared a school with Chris Chan.People are always curious about something different.Other WC peeps in the Bay area had to be aware of HFY WC.They must have asked questions or had discussions about it.The similarity to TWC must have been seen by some.So were any of the questions about HFY asked and answered before your book came out?You and Robert must have done some research before giving them a chapter.John Murphy didnt just call up and say,"check out our secret WC and devote a chapter in your book to it."So what factors lead you to devote a chapter to Huen Seun WC?Did you notice the similarity to TWC ?If so what factors lead you to feel it was different enough to warrent a chapter and yet not mention TWC?TWC is more widely practiced afterall.What factors since publication have lead you to change your opinion about HFY if any?I would think that since Chris and Garrett knew each other at some point they would have discussed their mutual art that is why i asked if anyonje had talked to Chris.

Phil Redmond
03-25-2002, 09:04 PM
>Unfortunatly William Cheungs old stories have tarnished all WC to some extent.<
It's amazing that the ones that don't use their real names on forums talk the most junk. You'll never hear me say anything about any sifus. Especially people who are senior to all of us. Had it not been for Wong Sheung Leung, and William Cheung who fought for the name of our style, most of us would never have even heard of Wing Chun. My profile is open. I have nothing to hide.

Phil

Rolling_Hand
03-25-2002, 09:32 PM
--Looks like i stirred things up

Though there's been a lot of frustration between you and Rene lately. You've also accomplished quite a bit in a short amount of time.

--Unfortunatly William Cheungs old stories have tarnished all WC to some extent.

LOL, according to you... if your lips itches, you've got it!!!
Big egos and personal agenda flex their muscles under today's grand fire trine. Suit you fine.
Another thing, someone told me that only Kenneth Chung's members like to mention Chris Chan name all the time. So are you one of them?

Sauchi
03-26-2002, 01:46 AM
Hi Chango, Rene, Hunter and everybody,


I heard my name mentioned so I thought I would drop in.
I'm Matt Kwan one of Gee sifu students.

Alot has been said judging by the number of pages I just read through. If I can I would like to clarify some of the comments/questions about Gee sifu and his background with Chris Chan and William Cheung and hopefully dispell some of the rumors that may turn into something more than fiction/factual.

More recent comments first - Sifu Gee and Sifu Chris Chan are good friends. At the time when they shared a Studio Chris Chan was teaching Wing Chun while my Sifu was teaching Tai Chi/WuDang which is what Sifu Gee family gung fu was well famous for.

My sifu at the time had no intention of teaching WingChun publically. It was his personal martial arts to which he kept to himself and the few people he wished to share it with personally.

It is true that Sifu Gee's WC looks totally different from Sifu Chan's WC. It is true that HFY in appearance looks more similiar to Williams Cheungs WC than other YipMan WingChun Families although all WC Families share commonality with which makes WC noticed as Wing Chun. When placed side by side there is a resemblence between HFY & TWC, but each forms of WC - HFY and TWC are distinct and different in their own right.

As Chango has experience, since he has had the opportunity to have learned for periods of time from both Sifu Gee and Sifu Cheung, he can tell you they are different.

As for rumors that Rene had mentioned early:

Sifu Gee had never met Sifu William Cheung. So that would dispell the notion him being a student. Sifu Gee had learned his WC as a youth in China from SiGung Wong Ming.

As for Sifu Gee finding William Cheungs Wing Chun Material and then engineering it into HFY, this is also fiction. Sifu Gee's knowledge is very indept and his skill level is very high. Learning from published material would not bring a person to a high level of understanding and skill level with sensitivity.

HFY was not engineer. Recently a Wong Sheung Leung descendant from Hong Kong paid our HFY school a visit. He wanted to see our WC for himself. That was a long distance to check us out. He said that there were many underground WC schools in HK and that he had hear of two underground HFY/Huen Suen schools. One was in Hong Kong, the other was in Macao and that other people (from HK) knew of them but never had the opportunity to find them. I suppose if I knew where it was (and I knew the history/background and i was from HK) I wouldn't tell either.

As for speculating that Yipman or William Cheung had some early run in or association with a HFY practioner, I have no knowledge of that of any kind.

But for out of respect for my Sifu and Sifu William Cheung, please I would appreciate it if we can not spread rumors about the two of them knowing each other or having a student/teacher relationship. This causes unfounded controversy and more rumors/speculation in the long run.

Both of them are still accessible to ask one way or another. And Sifu Gee is the type of person you can go up to and ask, "Have you ever met William Cheung?" And he would answer you.


Matt Kwan

reneritchie
03-26-2002, 08:26 AM
Chango - I regret we cannot discuss these things maturely and intelligently, and that my courtesy and generousity are not returned. Since I have no interest in politics or posturing, I'll leave you be for now and hope we can return to it when more productive discussion is possible. As always, I wish you and yours well.

Rolling Hand - Exploring the methods of Hawkins Cheung might answer most of your questions. Robert's personal system is just his attempt to organize everything he's learned for the benefit of his student.

Hunter - Robert was mainly involved with the Hung Suen chapter, and it occured very late in the process (as did the Jee Shim chapter). We did manage to do some looking into, but we've yet to discuss this much publically.

Matt - Great to see you here! Once again you give me hope that these topics, like similar ones involving different lineages, can be discussed in a civil, respectful manner. Please understand, I wasn't spreading completely baseless rumor. Everything I wrote I received directly from students of Cheung sifu or Gee sifu. As you might imagine, the similarity (even if grossly superficial) has interested them as well! There are wilder rumors as well, and these I didn't include because they lacked even that foundation. I hope everyone understands that people enjoy mysteries. If someone saw Leung Sheung, Wong Sheung Leung, and Ho Kam Ming all doing SNT, the same in some ways, distinct in others, they may try to find out the connection (and stumble upon Yip Man), Same with Yip Man and Bruce Lee. Same with Chan Wah-Shun and Wong Wah-Sum. All with the same core, all similar, all distinct, all related, closer or further, in some way.

Rgds,

RR

Phil Redmond
03-26-2002, 08:43 AM
Matt-
I also have to compliment your handling of this sticky situation. Someone once told me that I'd seen too many kung fu flicks when I mentioned honor. No, I think it's my Marine Corps training. "Death before Dishonor" is the code I try to live by. We as martial artists should stand for something. Otherwise we're just a bunch of thugs who know how to fight. You seem to be a good example of what I believe in.

hunt1
03-26-2002, 09:43 AM
As to who I am.My name as everyone but you 2 seem to know is Hunter.Hunter was already taken when I joined the forum hence Hunt1.I have on numerous occasions given my background on this forum.No,Ken Chung is not in it nor is Leung Sheung.I have on many occasions on this forum and others invited anyone that is travelling to Florida,I am in the Tampa area, to come by for some Chi Sao or to shoot the **** etc.I am always looking to learn something.I also have an open door if someone feels the need to compare skills in an unfriendly manner and have stated this publicly on this forum and others.I have never read anything from either of you offering the same.So who is hiding?(I refer to friendly visits and touching of hands)
As to my comments about William Cheung,are you blind or just suffer from selective memory or reading?The controversy about TWC has been ongoing for about 25 years or so.Many of his Austrailian students have through the years expressed doubts about his stories.Many of his American students have said both publicly and privately that the story varied through the years.My statement reflects nothing other than what has happened over the years.I have no agenda and to imply such is ludicrous.His story of learning through Yip Man may be true if adjusted through the eyes of an 18 year old.I dont know and no one other than Bill knows.If you, like many others,suffer from 'Sifu Love',put your Sifu on a pedestal and forget he is just a person with human weaknesses that is your business.Dont attack or slight those who look at things objectively.To do so is dishonorable.
The search for hard facts is not always pleasant.If however all this nonsense about TWC ,HFY etc could be put to rest we would all be better off.

Alpha Dog
03-26-2002, 09:59 AM
And not pertaining directly to anyone or anything said specificially in this thread....

But,

I have noticed that participants in this forum tend to equate polite language with reliability and impolite or aggressive language with nonsense. this is a major mistake. and the fact that it happens so often is itself a good argument against censorship.

Read for content - it's either right or wrong, factwise; style is a personal matter that, if you don't like, you needn't emulate.

Phil Redmond
03-26-2002, 10:02 AM
>>I also have an open door if someone feels the need to compare skills in an unfriendly manner and have stated this publicly on this forum and others.I have never read anything from either of you offering the same.So who is hiding?<<

Are you challenging people now? Really good example dude.

Rolling_Hand
03-26-2002, 11:02 AM
--Death before dishonor

Hats off to people like you: Phil & Matt

Rolling_Hand
03-26-2002, 11:50 AM
--As to my comments about William Cheung,are you blind or just suffer from selective memory or reading?

Hahaha...expect many surprises along the way. Since you don't know anything about TWC & HFY, proceed cautionsly. With both Rene & you want many things. But asking them all at once will only frustrate you and both of you haven't a clue as a wild turkey. But you'd like do it behind people's back to attack others with Rene's rumors. You could kick yourself for swapping something for nothing. This is time to listen to your imagination - you are blind and suffer from selective memory. You could take it or leave it - TWC is an art from Leung Bik!!!

--I also have an open door if someone feels the need to compare skills in an unfriendly manner.

The Kockiness is just cover up for a very bruised ego. However this is one instance when the ends truly justify the means. Be patient, you'll be overjoyed someday.

reneritchie
03-26-2002, 12:47 PM
Rolling Hand - All I want is for a little family and integrity in Wing Chun, for teachers to put the art before their wallets and egos, and for students to not cling to illusion or walk blindly off the edges of cliffs. That and world peace. And Halle Berry. Wait, put Halle first...

Rgds,

RR

reneritchie
03-26-2002, 01:06 PM
AD - IMHO discussion is like WCK. If you know what you're doing, you can just relax and do it. Like SNT. If you lack foundation, you might have to twist or turn or otherwise change the angle. If you're really out of your depth, you might try to engage emergency tactics and flurry away to cover up.

Conversation, like WCK, requires no brutish force if skillfully applied. 8)

Rgds,

RR

Sabu
03-26-2002, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by reneritchie
If you lack foundation, you might have to twist or turn or otherwise change the angle.

Please, I am so sorry for contradicting.... But...

It is because of a strong foundation that one is able to twist efficiently. It is the absence of the strong foundation that one finds himself less mobile, and in need of his brain for the next technique, as opposed to the sensitivity developed in his body. Wing Chun is not one dimensional, and neither is the body. Much intensive training of the stance is necessary to discover this, not speculation.

hunt1
03-26-2002, 02:32 PM
Phil thank you for making my point.You do read selectively.The very next sentence I clearly state I am referring to Friendly chi sao.GUESS YOU DIDNT READ THE NEXT SENTENCE.Fighting is very dangerous and a personal matter I never would judge someone for not wanting to fight.I dont challange anyone. Never have never will i merely state I take what is offered

Way to read bro!

To RH and Phil if my meaning was not clear,and it may not have been.I invite anyone to come visit.I hope for a friendly exchange of knowledge however some people with chips on their shoulders may turn this into something unfriendly.I welcome all and deal with whatever comes.I dont hide.

As far as my ego I dont see either of you opening up your school to any and all visitors and agree to touch hands with them site unseen.As for my knowledge of TWC and HFY.I dont know much about HFY.If I ever get the chance I hope to learn.I have had several opportunities to touch hands with TWC sifus.I personally like TWC but that doesnt mean I believe or dont believe stories about its origin.

Congrats to both of you for avoiding the real issue's.

reneritchie
03-26-2002, 02:32 PM
Hey Sabu,

Standing is more stable than turning, turning more stable than stepping. You only use as much as you *have* to. The more you train, the less you'll *have* to turn or step (though you may still *choose* to). That's the beauty of SNT. When you've gone through the rest, you can come back to it.

BTW- Don't be sorry for contradicting. I enjoy the debate. Maybe I'm wrong and how else will I learn? (BTW, though, I'm not speculating this time 8)

Rgds,

RR

Rolling_Hand
03-26-2002, 04:35 PM
--Congrat to both of you for avoiding the real issue's

Mirror on the wall. Apply your own logic to yourself and you'll see why people make certain choices.
William Cheung could pull a rabbit ( TWC ) out of Leung Bik's hat. Not because he knew how to play magic. It's because Leung Bik/Yip Man planted it all at the start.

Rolling_Hand
03-26-2002, 04:47 PM
--All I want is for a little family and integrity in Wing Chun, for teachers to put the art before their wallets and egos.

It's easy for people to talk about the noble thing to do when they have nothing at stake. Everything may look civil on the surface, but underneath it's strictly everyman for himself.
And who's to say Bill Gate has no integrity, is that you Rene Ritchie???

--and for students to not cling to illusion or walk blindly off the edges of cliffs.

May be you should make an appointment with Professor Yuenfen and have a little chat...LOL!!!
Sometimes in your brilliance you forget that rules pertain to you, too!

anerlich
03-26-2002, 09:01 PM
Matt Kwan,

nice to see a reasoned and informative post from you on this for-some-reason touchy subject.

I am a practitioner of TWC. IMO Sigung William Cheung is one of the greats of modern times. He learned from Yip Man. Does that place him above criticism? Hell no. Read my "False Prophets" article on Rene's site about how perilous it can be to regard one's Sifu with an uncritical eye. Yes, my Sifu and I have left the WWCKFA. I would defy anyone present at Sigung Cheung's last visit to my Sifu's school, as I was, to argue rationally against my Sifu's decision. One of my other teachers knew Sigung Cheung from the 60's, and well, he can tell some stories too. The Sigung is a man, not an idol, same as every other senior person in WC.

As for suggesting us mere mortals should be banished for having the temerity to suggest that Messrs Cheung or Gee are keeping secrets, I have already suggested that a joint statement by both could be the best way to stop this speculation and the resulting smacktalking amongs their juniors evident on this thread. Leadership of a style is a responsibility as well as something you (allegedly) inherit.

In the immortal words of Rodney King, can't we all just ...

sunkuen
03-26-2002, 09:17 PM
"Are you challenging people now? Really good example dude."

Haven't you ever felt like challenging anyone? Anybody?Maybe you have....Have you challenged anyone?

Phil Redmond
03-27-2002, 06:09 AM
>>Haven't you ever felt like challenging anyone? Anybody?Maybe you have....Have you challenged anyone?<<

Me and my gang challenged North Vietnam once. We lost though.

Phil Redmond
03-27-2002, 08:54 AM
Hi Hunter, now I'll be the last person to talk to anyone about computers. My age group 'usually' isn't as computer savvy as younger people. But, isn't there an 'edit' function on this forum?

>>As far as my ego I dont see either of you opening up your school to any and all visitors and agree to touch hands with them site unseen<<

I'm at a loss to this sentence. Are you saying that if someone doesn't open their doors to touching hands with people sight unseen that they have an ego?
I don't have an ego. I live in a state where any knucklehead without a felony can get a concealed weapon permit. I've also taught in inner city schools in NY and Detroit where people would come in off the streets and say that kung fu s**t don't work. Also, after having to fight with fixed bayonnets face to face to the death combat in Vietnam. I've learned that the 'bad dudes' usually end up on boot hill. Oh, I do have a school so I have to keep the doors open. Anyway, I'm too old to play fight.
Peace.

Alpha Dog
03-27-2002, 09:21 AM
You must have some amazing stories, have you ever thought of writing them out like a book or something?

hunt1
03-27-2002, 10:58 AM
Have to agree that sentence doesnt make much sense or reflect what i was trying to say.It was direted towards a comment RH made that wasnt even worth a response.I was just on a roll.

As far as the edit key.It shouldnt be here since many,you included,focus on one sentance and therefore lose the context the words were spoken in.The context is everything .Any sentance uttered by anyone can be construed to mean almost anything if its taken out of context.

I made my feelings on fighting clear.there is no such thing where I come from from as play fighting.Its for keeps you do it or you dont.Not fighting is always the better option if you have the option..Glad you survived.I grew up in a part of Chicago just as bad as anything in NY.I have defended myself barehanded against a machette and was lucky enough to walk away unharmed.I would have welcomed bayonette vs bayonette.

Enough of this nonsense.We are way off base.You made this personal not me.You have yet to address the fact that many in the TWC camp questioned the stories including the best ever, Rick Spain.I will no longer respond to personal comments since you use them to avoid the issues.
I congratulate you on learning from Bill Clintons defenders.If you cant defend the issue change the debate.Attack the messenger.

Rolling_Hand
03-27-2002, 11:22 AM
hahaha....<the issue is about yourself, not William Cheung or anyone>

The causes of suffering arise from your own mind (attachment, anger and ignorance)

Sabu
03-28-2002, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by reneritchie
Standing is more stable than turning, turning more stable than stepping.

True, true, true, very true that is. IF your foundation is weak, the above is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY true.

However, IF, IF, IF your foundation is strong, the turning makes your structure stronger.

Stepping.... well, let us just say, that it is the olive on the babaganouj.

Alpha Dog
03-28-2002, 04:18 AM
Sorta like twisting a cap tighter on a bottle or different? Please, your reply (I will ask the elephant myself).

reneritchie
03-28-2002, 05:13 AM
Hey Sabu,

If you're much more highly skilled than your opponent, then you can turn, step, hop, skip, jump, etc. and it won't make a difference. In WCK, least how I learned it, however, we don't assume we'll be more highly skilled than our opponent anymore than we assume we'll be bigger, stronger, and faster.

Lots of WCK people do turn and step around a lot though, but because their classmates do it as well, it all sort of equals out. When they get a chance to play with someone who understands Yee Ching Jai Dong and Yee Yat Toi Lo, their turns become spins and their steps become slips and they bounce off more stable opponents.

Much of WCK (or any MA really) has to do with playing with balance and momentum. By adding or subtracting to/from balance and momentum, control is achieved (they key to "soft", "relaxed" MA)

Then again, it's highly likely I don't know what I'm talking about! ;)

RR

Alpha Dog
03-28-2002, 06:24 AM
Your foundation IS the integral part of your skill, is it not Rene? how can you have skilled hands without skilled feet on the ground?

reneritchie
03-28-2002, 07:16 AM
AD - Of course, that's what I'm saying! Wan Jut, Wan Da!

RR

Alpha Dog
03-28-2002, 07:32 AM
I see....

The hopping and skipping stuff confused me.

I understand that being relaxed and "going with it" is important but the "bouncy" students seem to be defeated easily by those who find their balance and stay.

Rolling_Hand
03-28-2002, 08:59 AM
Thanks to those who spread the rumors about William Cheung, Garrett Gee and others. Maybe there's a lesson to learn for everyone. Hopefully this renews your faith in people!!!

Check it out...
http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum/treplies.asp?message=1497

reneritchie
03-28-2002, 10:21 AM
Yeah, anonymous personal attacks interspersed with factually/logically challenged diatribes are always a great way to "renew faith". Closer to zealotism, I think. Pretty silly, and pretty sad.

Personally, I don't think there was no Leung Bik or that William Cheung was "lying". There may very well have been a Leung Bik, and William Cheung may very well believe there was. However, I assume, since Wang Kiu, Ken Chung, and some of William Cheung's students, and others have said there was no Leung Bik, or no connection between Leung Bik and Yip Man, that you think they're lying? I hope not. IMHO, all we can say is that there's no agreement between Yip Man's students, so who knows? A sign of character is to respect opinions even when different than your own. If you choose to believe and your brother chooses not to, more power to you both.

BTW - Anyone else have problems posting on the former VTAA board? For the last month, I get an OLE error every time I try to respond.

Rgds,

RR

sunkuen
03-28-2002, 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Is this a case of sourgrapes about TWC Author: Thomas Date: 2002/1/30 ¤W¤È 08:20:59

Zinjin, whoever you are - maybe a WT sheep?

Be extra vigilant - especially when it comes to things you don't know about. Your inner gyroscope is off, and an oversight could cost. You're used to being the lone dissenting voice within your own family. BTW, Who's your Sifu?


This is a good one, eh R'olling Hand....could you look into your teacup and read my horoscope...Please

R'olling Hand says O.K. Sunkeun here it is.

"The heavy foot of indecision comes to stomp on your smoothly moving process. It may be difficult to think when you consider how much is at stake. You still have a few days left to find the answer. Take the time to reassess your situation on your own. Advice from others might not be what you need right now. Only you have the patience and understanding to figure out what you need. Try taking walks alone or spending time reading a book. Some solitary thinking time will help to make your decision easier."

Thanks R'olling Hand ....you da man...:D

sunkuen
03-28-2002, 11:24 AM
This ones for you R'olling Hnad

Your argument leads you into a corner from which there's no graceful retreat. Press onward at the risk of looking foolish. You welcome any interruption or diversion that comes through the door.

Rolling_Hand
03-28-2002, 11:41 AM
Sunkeun

Making offerings to your spiritual guru - take Madonna out for a date, someday you'll be overjoyed!

sunkuen
03-28-2002, 11:48 AM
R'olling Hnad

If there's a practical use for something, R'olling Hnad will find it. You know what's best for others, and more than likely you'll convince them of it. It's fun to be the responsible adult among respectful children. But we don't all fit the bill.

Sabu
03-28-2002, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by reneritchie In WCK, least how I learned it, however, we don't assume we'll be more highly skilled than our opponent anymore than we assume we'll be bigger, stronger, and faster. Exactly, that's why the necessity of the STRONG foundation to facilitate effective execution of turning, and the manifestation of yin/yang.


Lots of WCK people do turn and step around a lot though, but because their classmates do it as well, it all sort of equals out. When they get a chance to play with someone who understands Yee Ching Jai Dong and Yee Yat Toi Lo, their turns become spins and their steps become slips and they bounce off more stable opponents. TRUE, TRUE, TRUE, how TRUE that is, with a weak foundation.


Much of WCK (or any MA really) has to do with playing with balance and momentum. By adding or subtracting to/from balance and momentum, control is achieved (they key to "soft", "relaxed" MA) How is this achieved physically, like a dog humping it's masters leg?


Then again, it's highly likely I don't know what I'm talking about! Yes, truthfully so.

Rolling_Hand
03-28-2002, 12:06 PM
Just for you, I am not Thomas.

But I'll take Madonna for lunch, enjoy yourself at this moment...hahaha!!!

sunkuen
03-28-2002, 12:19 PM
You're not exactly in control, and it's beginning to bother you. Compensate for weakness in one area with a show of strength in another. Once you choose a course of action, there's no time for privacy.

Sauchi
03-28-2002, 12:23 PM
Hi Anerlich,

Mere Mortals - this is true.
As people, you are right we are not above criticism. Some times this is good for growth or damaging for the ego and each take it differently depending on our personality and circumstance.

I am not suggesting idolatry or blind faith in "False Prophets". Questioning is a good learning tool. But I did ask for a little courtesy and some respect for their accomplishments.

It would be great if both Sifu Gee and Sifu Cheung would meet and discuss, history, information, and also dispell some of the rumors. This would be a historical day in wing Chun and I would like to be there as well as many others. There are a lot of questions out there that people would want to ask.

I am not sure if they will be answered. There are reason why people keep secrets or why people create rumors.

As for why HFY had never come out to the public sooner,perhaps its because of tradition, culture or the preservation of something considered sacred. But it was there. Like when europeans first discovered temples on the side of walls in the Asia or the pyramids in Egypt. The monks knew it was there, and the Egyptians all knew of Pyramids. Is this really discovering something or just informing others what is already been around.

I know in my last post I had commented on a Rumor of HFY being engineer or Sifu Gee learning from William Cheung. Sifu Gee had been teaching HFY under the name Huen Suen privatly since the 70's, back then there wasn't much published materials. Had Sifu Gee published his information/knowledge first would people consider him the authority or would people had said that William had learned it from Sifu Gee, I'm not sure.

I'm sure William Cheung has many secrets as does Sifu Gee, but they both choose to tell what they want to disclose.

We all would like to know what really happened back in the days, but that will most likely never be known. Even if one version is true, no one will believe it because of too many differing testimonies from sifus (who never got the big picture in the first place).

As for Wing Chun, I practice it because I love the Art and the training. Its pretty addictive.


Matt

Rolling_Hand
03-28-2002, 12:32 PM
Keep your mouth closed. Let your teeth rest lightly together and your tongue touch the mouth - then you've got it. Raising the Chi is what enables your mind in the right direction.

reneritchie
03-28-2002, 12:37 PM
Sabu - I think you misread my post. Give it another go. I'm talking pure foundation 8)

Matt - Again, nicely said. Sometimes I think its up to our generation to take the next steps in brotherhood and harmony; and to leave behind the politics of the past. BTW- I've seen rumors on the 'net about "Hung Fa Yi" schools in HK (across from Moy Yat's school) and in the New Territorries, but also heard the former was actually a Jee Shim school and the latter a Hakka Wing Chun school. Any idea if they were/are actual Hung Fa Yi schools?

Rgds,

RR

Rolling_Hand
03-28-2002, 02:01 PM
--Is this really discovering something or just informing others what is already been around - Matt

Well, someone wants to pull the elephant out of the hat. And others want to build Pyramids with sands.

--a Hakka wing chun school - Rene

???...full moon, so hang tough.

Sauchi
03-28-2002, 03:02 PM
Hi Rene,

I hope we can promote brotherhood - I supposed that was what yours and Marty's intention were by having Friendship Seminars. =)


-I've seen rumors on the 'net about "Hung Fa Yi" schools in HK (across from Moy Yat's school) and in the New Territorries, but also heard the former was actually a Jee Shim school and the latter a Hakka Wing Chun school. Any idea if they were/are actual Hung Fa Yi schools?

I'm not sure. This is the second time I ever heard about other Huen Suen/HFY schools other than knowing my Sifu and the people around him.

The first of hearing of other HFY members other than the ones from my family organization was from a person in on the YipMan forum. Where they were talking about Haka. I believe you talked with him.

The second time was from the Wong Sheung Leung camp from HK. He came into our SF school wanting to see our HFY WC. He said that he had heard of underground Huen Suen/HFY and wanted to see what HFY looked like but never found an actual school to go to.

The only explanation about the other Huen Suen/HFY that I could think of is that one of my sifu's sihing could be teaching it.

If you have any other news on this, please email me.


Thanks

Matt

reneritchie
03-28-2002, 03:23 PM
RH - Hakka Wing Chun is, like many Hakka systems, not widely spread (don't know if it's still the case, but before only Hakka could learn it). It has other names, and Siu Nim/Lien Tao is not its first form. (Historically, it should be pretty easy to figure out why there's Hakka Wing Chun).

Matt - Will email you.

Rgds,

RR

Rolling_Hand
03-28-2002, 04:36 PM
74aa11-Got U,EMC^.78, 2500Fill,ok - Girlsharp:5.30

Tom Kagan
03-28-2002, 05:00 PM
Sauchi,


I'm sure William Cheung has many secrets as does Sifu Gee, but they both choose to tell what they want to disclose.

Sao Gerk Song Siu, Mo Jeet Jiu -- When you control the hands and feet, there are no secrets. ;)

reneritchie,


BTW- I've seen rumors on the 'net about "Hung Fa Yi" schools in HK (across from Moy Yat's school) and in the New Territorries, but also heard the former was actually a Jee Shim school and the latter a Hakka Wing Chun school. Any idea if they were/are actual Hung Fa Yi schools?

It was Hung Suen, not Hung Fa Yi and I was told it was a bit further away than 'across from'. Were they the same? Who knows? But, after returning from the trip where Mr. Gee announced publicly about the name of his lineage, I asked sifu about it. He said to me, "lemme guess: they do this in Siu Nim Tao, right?" and, without getting up, proceeded to quickly demonstrate. We then went back to our chess game. :p It never occurred to me to follow up beyond that day. However, if you really need to know, I suppose you could ask Henry Moy, Dunn Wah, or Jeffrey Chan, or even (maybe) Ip Ching about it, though I can't speculate whether it is of tremendous consequence (or even if they would humor you :D).

The 'Jee Shim' school you refer to was not Jee Shim, and was not the same school as the one above (it was after Moy Yat emigrated). Also, the last time I read you referring to this school you said something along the lines of (paraphrased) "They said they had <something I don't remember> which would imply Jee Shim lineage" - A significant change, no? :) BTW, your quote, which I still don't remember :), did not imply such a lineage to me. But that, perhaps, is because I'd previously met the person in question.

I haven't paid much attention to the rumors of Hakka schools in the New Territories (and I've been there !!), so I can't be of any help on this.

Rolling_Hand
03-28-2002, 05:35 PM
--A significant change, no? - Tom

What did I say - full moon?

--So I can't be of any help on this.

hahaha...this isn't a retreat, just LOI LUI ?
Don't give up on what you've worked hard for, it's a double lips service among Moy Yat and you.
Where's Rene's Wu-Sau?

FIRE HAWK
03-28-2002, 06:14 PM
Would the style called Chuka Shaolin Phoenix Eye Fist possiably be a version of Hakka Wing Chun they have the 6 and a half point pole in there art ? What other forms does Hakka Wing Chun have ?

Sabu
03-28-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by reneritchie
Sabu - I think you misread my post. Give it another go. I'm talking pure foundation 8)

Indeed you are, good sir. A very, very, very pure third of it.

"Let the elephant trunks do the talking, and the spectators do the speculating..."

sunkuen
03-28-2002, 07:19 PM
In your private language, there are many words for what other people can't define. You may get a little selfish in your sense of discovery.

reneritchie
03-28-2002, 07:34 PM
Tom - I was told by someone in your family (who I have no reason to doubt) that it was a "a HFY school" and was "right across the street from MoyYat's Hong Kong school". If that was in error, I'm grateful for your correction. Is it of consequence? That's up to the individual. As to "Jee Shim", that's not a leap, simply something I followed up on. It led me to Chu Chong-Man's line, which is nowadays referred to as Jee Shim by its successor in the west. Again, if you have better info, I'm grateful. I've been to the New Territories as well, and didn't see any big signs saying "Hakka Wing Chun", so who knows? As Matt said, that was posted on the former VTAA board so I take it with a truck-load of salt grains. BTW - What's with the "tone"? 8)

RH - Haven't needed a Wu Sao yet. The Mun's are handling everything fine.

Sabu - Great! Easier for me when people think that way!

AD - Nice twisting cap analogy. When we turn we drill and when we step we wedge so there's a moment of greater connection with the ground in between the transitions. Some are experts at using the moment, some at hunting the transitions.

Rgds,

RR

Rolling_Hand
03-28-2002, 08:27 PM
--When you control the hands and feet, there are no secrets.

Do you know how to make Peking Duck Won Ton soup a la king?

Sunkeun - private massage

! ....go to see your teammate - Professor Yuanfen, he could help you to discover a new direction. If not, just hold on tight and don't give it up easily. Even a dog has its days....Ooop, JK!!!

Rene's Mun Sao?

Please don't tell me if Tom's for real this time.
As you know, he's not exactly alone, Moy Yat is behind him all the way.

sunkuen
03-28-2002, 09:34 PM
Heed the forecast. Comfort is a luxury. Worrying is sane if you know when to quit. It was nice to see you chase Yuanfen around nipping at his ankles, while we wait for you to take a real bite.
:D

yuanfen
03-29-2002, 09:34 AM
That ignored troll misses every time. He doesnt get it- the center line. Warmed over gibberish doesnt do it.

yuanfen
03-29-2002, 09:39 AM
Or vice versa. Apparently you care. IMO, not one of the pressing questions of our time but the resident troll can bring out his smoke and mirrors.

Rolling_Hand
03-29-2002, 05:21 PM
Did Augustine Fong add Sunkeun WC to his Fong's Wing Chun?

sunkuen
03-29-2002, 05:30 PM
You're only as good as your last statement. Keep them interested or they'll move on.

Rolling_Hand
04-01-2002, 04:01 PM
Sonlips,

Who's gonna teach you lips service tonight, Professor X ?
Your little head smells of fish, wearing someone else's wild underware that wouldn't make "stink fish" go away. Stay true to yourself. Number 6 is a perfect match to your little head.

sunkuen
04-01-2002, 04:42 PM
The overlord has come for his payment. In your last life you were a cow…do not mock the smell.

p.s. The antichrist has arrived on earth in the guise of your underpants.

Rolling_Hand
04-01-2002, 05:45 PM
No one could hear your mumbo jumbo under someone else's hat. Its size just too big for your little head!!!

sunkuen
04-01-2002, 05:57 PM
Prepare for the inevitable, and you will be struck by something worse. In your last life you were a cow…do not mock the smell.


p.s. Yuanfen wasn't willing or able as you could see.

Sabu
04-01-2002, 08:22 PM
Your perpetual references to cows offends me.... I am making a request to you to make an effort to be a little more politically correct. Or I must challenge you to an elephant duel.

yuanfen
04-01-2002, 08:53 PM
Matter of will. shoo fly shoo

Rolling_Hand
04-01-2002, 08:59 PM
Sonlips & cowlips

Double lips services wouldn't make a "dynamic bull" out of you. After days of idlling, you don't want to run yourself down again. Professor yuanfen could help you to show a human face!

sunkuen
04-01-2002, 10:24 PM
Running won't help. The forum needs your participation. Pick up where you left off. If you're down to eating road kill, try it with ketchup.

sunkuen
04-02-2002, 12:02 AM
did you find any ammo here!!!