list of southern kung fu styles that have no variations(only one lineage)

[wolfkiller]

can you list the different kinds of southern kung fu or southern kuo shu styles that have no variations or has only one lineage. example: there are at least two kinds ( two lineages) of wing chun chien . or there are at least 5 kinds of southern praying mantis.

are there even southern kung fu styles( not systems like choy li fut, or hung jia chien) that has only one lineage?

[David]

I think only secret or extinct styles fit that bill :-(

[dezhen2001]

as soon as a Sifu has more than one student, 2 lineages can develop... so i would say it'd be pretty much impossible, except from maybe family styles or something...

david

[Ima Pseudonym]

Bak Fu Pai has only one lineage.

www.tigerkungfu.com

[fiercest tiger]

bak fu pai may be under Doo Wai family thats what he says, but its made up from different systems. so it aint pure as such as if his family made the style up.

[Ima Pseudonym]

Bak Fu Pai was not created by the Doo family, but it was passed to them by the founder of the style, therefore the Doo family would be the sole lineage for Bak Fu Pai and has been that way for centuries.

[fiercest tiger]

Can you please tell me why Doo Wai studied under Cheung Lai Chun for? CLC is bak mei!

thanks and welcome to KFO.:D

[TIger Hand]

I can tell you fiercest tiger, why he studied under CLC. It's because Bak Fu Pai is Doo's interpretation of Bak Mei.

[mono68]

Curious, If CLC died in 1964 how old was Doo Wai to learn the Pak mei System from Him. I also read by James Lacey that Bak fu Pai was part of the five elders style.

Just Curious.

[jon]

Doesnt Bak Fu Pai just mean
Bak (white) fu (tiger) pai (family)?
If so there are ten million styles using that name and any one linage would be simply a personal interpretation anyway.

I would doubt highly that any system more than a couple of hundred years old would be all one linage. Some will try to tell you they are but they usualy have an alteriour motive for doing so.

I personaly cant name one system that is one hundred percent pure and only has one linage.

[crazybuddha]

fu jow pai under Wai Hong

[TIger Hand]

fu jow pai under wai hong????

C'mon plez, we are seeing a new branch appear before our eyes.

Do i need to mention, Tak Wah.

[wolfkiller]

what about fukien five ancestors fists? or duck fist( this is a sourthern style, right?)

but kung fu systems like hung jia chien and choy li fut that have only one lineage , right ?

[Leonidas]

Nope. hate to burst your bubble. Choy Li Fut has Buk Sing, Hung Sing, Chan and Wing? lineages. Those are the main ones atleast. Hung gar has at the least the Village style and the "modern" style created by Wong fei Hung. The more famous a style is the more interpretations it has. I could say Pan Gai Noon but that tradition is not really in China anymore. Thats the only one i can think of. Kung Fu history is pretty secretive so it'd be impossible to get an absolutely answer, you'll have to do alot more digging than a post on a forum to find out. May i ask why you want to know this info. Not trying to be rude, i just think its an interesting question.

[crazybuddha]

.

[jon]

With full respects to Grand master Wai Hung i dont 'think' he is the 'only' true black tiger grandmaster.
I know of him and know he himself keeps his organisation pure but that doesnt stop his ex students or even his old training partners from forming there own organisitions.
I could name of shoots of Master Wai Hungs linage right now, Tak Wah is certainly one of them.
In this respect you could not really qualify Fu Jow Pai as the ONLY Black Tiger school around. GM Wai Hungs certainly does his best to keep his art pure and his linage intact but i dont think it somehow makes him imune to the same problems that have besiged CMA for centurys.
Incendently one the orginal Black Tiger masters was a student of Wong Kai Ying of Hung Ga fame. When he finished the Black Tiger he passed on the knowledge to WKY who then added some to Hung Ga.
You can see just by this that the chances of others having a different interpretation of Black Tiger going back hundreds of years is VERY high.

All im saying is i dont think that Fu Jow Pai (fu -tiger Jow-claw) is the only interpretation of Black Tiger around.

[crazybuddha]

.

[TIger Hand]

Yeah....Tak Wah doesn't represent Fu Jow now.

We will see what happends after Wai Hong "starts walking the last mile."

[wolfkiller]

Originally posted by Leonidas
Nope. hate to burst your bubble. Choy Li Fut has Buk Sing, Hung Sing, Chan and Wing? lineages. Those are the main ones atleast. Hung gar has at the least the Village style and the "modern" style created by Wong fei Hung. The more famous a style is the more interpretations it has. I could say Pan Gai Noon but that tradition is not really in China anymore. Thats the only one i can think of. Kung Fu history is pretty secretive so it'd be impossible to get an absolutely answer, you'll have to do alot more digging than a post on a forum to find out. May i ask why you want to know this info. Not trying to be rude, i just think its an interesting question.


what is pan gai noon? i have not heard of that until now.

you see im not a practicioner of any martial art as of the moment but i am planning to study one in the future. i want to study a chinese martial art , preferably a southern style( to save me a lot of pain from all those leg streching for high kicks) but i want to study a kung fu style that has only one lineage, i just don't like the idea that there is more than one kind of a particular style or even a system.

i would prefer to study a style rather than a system because systems have too many techniques and forms, learning an entire style alone is improbable enough, learning an entire system is literally impossible( at least for people like me), i used to think there was only one kind of pakua chang and only one kind of southern praying mantis, now i find out there are many different lineages, and i have no idea what makes lineage one different from the other. i also used to think that wing chun and a northern style called pa chi chien only had one lineage too. but now i hear that they have more than one too.

looks like im running out of options, and now i find out that even kung fu systems like choy li fut and hung jia chien also have variations !


why can't people just stick to the original ?

why can't there be just one kind or lineage of a fist style or system?

[FIRE HAWK]

You might as well just learn Mauy Thaiboxing it is a good Art to learn it would be easyer to learn than Chinese Martial Arts great Elbow, knee ,and kicking techniques .There is a small walking form called Yaang Saam Khum this is the famous stealthy Thai boxers walk. I have a giant book on Thai boxing that has alot of stuff on the art and three other books on Thai boxing too .Thai boxing is one of my favorite Martial Arts .

[Leonidas]

Well im into Okinawan Martial arts so thats why i brought up that style. Pan gai Noon is now called Uechi Ryu (sorry thats Karate) because Kanei Uechi added some Okinawan "parts" to it. The original style was created by Shushiwa of Southern China consisting of elements of Crane, Tiger and Dragon boxing and was passed to an Okinawan named Kanbun Uechi. The only organziation that teaches it like it was original created goes by the name of Zankai which is somewhere in Japan. Its extinct in China. The style that Kanei Uechi made already has atleast 4 off shoots in the last 50 years alone.

I think your basing your choice on the wrong criteria. Even Southern styles have high kicks and for any physical actitvity you have to stretch. Your should read up on all the Kung Fu arts and make a choice from that. I also think you have a misconception about systems and styles. I dont see whats the difference but just because something is classified as a "system" doesn't mean it'll have more forms. Actually it seems to me that what people call styles usually have a larger amount of forms. What systems were you talking about anyway. Systems are supposed to be about concepts and theories brought to life through techniques, you can have many technique variables from one concept. An art can't totally be one or the other, style have concepts too.......... read the main board for more on this.

Its really all about what catches your interest and how you wanna fight. Using throws, punches, kicks, short or long distance techniques, simplistic or artistic forms, palm strikes, finger strikes or closed fists, circular or linear, aggressive or passive etc..........The differences go on and on, a style for every personality. I seriously doubt theres any one lineage styles. Someone is gonna always think that they can make an imrovement or they'll add there own flavor to it from experiences or preferences. I'll even mail you 10 bucks if you can find a one lineage southern kung fu style.

[David Jamieson]

why can't people just stick to the original ?

this is an excellent question. :D

My understanding is that Martial arts styles and systems are ever adapting and flexible to the needs of the artist and also the times.

To every strike there is a counterstrike in martial arts.
As an art grows, well... it grows.
Some styles are created to defeat other styles. Some styles are developed for a specific range then need to incorporate other ranges when the need arises.

The Shaolin recognized the constant flux and metamorphosis of fighting style and incorporated much of the knowledge they had about it into their systems that later were distributed to the public through various happenstance.

Also individual people are different in size shape and ability. Martial arts from a large depth of knowledge such as is in the Shaolin repetoire can be adapted to fit the practitioner without sacrificing the essence. Nevertheless, the practitioners interpretation is what is carried forward in time and hence the art evolves further.

In other words, If I have a hand, you get a stick, then I'll get a sword, then you'll get a bow and arrow, then I'll get a gun and so on it goes. The evolution of combat arts according to strategic and tactical need is what drives the evolution of the information inside a system of martial arts. The empty hand aspects of combat are still being explored by each and everyone who studies a martial art. Even though they have been studied for quite some time.

peace

[joedoe]

There are several lineages of Fukkien 5 Ancestors Fist. There are schools from Malaysia, Phillipines, China, and Indonesia just to mention a few, and each of them is slightly different.

Like Kung Lek said, arts must evolve and change otherwise they die - they become obsolete. Aside from that, they are arts and as such are different for every practitioner. Each sifu will teach the art differently because each sifu is different.

Best of luck in finding the right school.

[wolfkiller]

how can a style become obsolete? wouldn't that be like saying a punch or a joint lock or a kick can become obsolete.

i mean an effective punch or block is still an effective punch or block regardless of the era right ?

sure every attack has a counter and so on but isn't the effectiveness of an attack or counter more dependent on the amount of hard work and internalization of the individual than on the style? so how can a style become obsolete?

by the way, does anyone know where i can learn some extinct or nearly extinct kung fu styles ?

[stonecrusher69]

In regardes to Do Wai and j. lacy I personaly have a number of there video tapes a student of do wai's is demo a chi gong set while do wai and J. lacy are talking in the back ground it does not seem to me that they realize that there voices are be recorded .Do Wai is explaining to lacy how he fabricated this chi gong set last night,and how there are going to sell this video tape to Ed Parker people and get rich.Need I say more...The wolverine...

[Ima Pseudonym]

sorry for the delay in reply, i don't usually check KFO on the weekend.

fierce tiger:
in response to your question, i am quite certain that our Grandmaster is the one and only lineage holder of Bak Fu Pai. whether he ever trained with anyone else i am not really privy to, but i fail to see how training with other masters would affect the purity of a lineage. it is my understanding that it was common practice at one time for masters to exchange knowledge among each other.

jon:
as far as lineage goes, i wouldn't really think just anyone who learned a little of a style or used the name for recognition would be considered a "lineage holder". from what i have been taught the official lineage has to be passed down in a certain way and only to those chosen by the current lineage holder. i agree with you that a system as old as Bak Fu Pai (over 300 years) would normally have fragmented into different lineages by now, but since the system was taught completely closed door until about 5 years ago this has not been the case.

talk to ya'll later, and have a great day

[feldor]

I can confirm just as FT did. Bak Fu Pai has a mixture of other styles within the system. Lung Ying for example. Chom Bo Kuen is another. Chom Bo Kuen is essentialy Jik Bo. Doo Wai did learn from CLC as a child.

If you are privy to any Bak Mei, observe it and BFP. If you have a few years under your belt, you will see. But remember, don't be closed minded when you watch.

Charles ;)

[Ima Pseudonym]

i don't doubt Bak Mei and Bak Fu Pai look similar given the close contact of the founders. however, the point i was trying to make was the actual Bak Fu Pai lineage is one pure line regardless of other things that might have been picked up along the way. the system was founded in 1644 and passed down from one lineage holder to another since then.

well, gotta' get back to trainin', i'll try to check back soon

D

[joedoe]

It is not a punch or a kick that makes a style - you can only kick and punch so many ways. IMHO the essence of a style is not the punches or kicks it uses, but the way they are combined to provide an effective philosophy of attack/defence/counter-attack.

So, as fighting methods evolve, so must a style otherwise it becomes obsolete. If your style has no answer for a particular fighting method, then it must develop one or become deficient in that area. With enough deficiencies comes obsolesence.

[stonecrusher69]

you mention that bak fu pai is a pure line from one linage holder to the next,but how do you know that for sure.Where you there.Do wai says in one of his video that Foon do duk pick up some arts while traveling around China,so my question to you or anyone is how do you define pure linage?

[fiercest tiger]

exactly my friend!

lo man pai, daoist, buddhist, godess from heaven as well!

later
FT

[Ima Pseudonym]

unfortunately i wasn't there, but that would have been pretty cool... ;)

i guess my idea of a pure lineage is one that is passed down through the generations with the core forms intact. other info that is picked up along the way is fine and at times very helpful for students who might not be ready for the concepts contained in the core forms, but no matter what styles are learned along the way or techniques that are picked up, as long as the core forms remain the same, to me that is a pure lineage.

D

[joedoe]

Yes, but the core forms are always going to change slightly with each generation, until after maybe 4 generations there is a noticeable difference from the original form. I don't think any style would maintain its core forms completely true to the original form.

[BSH]

Joedoe:

That is the problem with most traditional CMA today: the forms have change ever so slightly from generation to generation and are no longer true to the original.

In an inherited system, the forms are confirmed to be accurate before they are passed to the next generation.

The reality is: traditional CMA were killed by the Communist Chinese since Mao's time. Wing Chun included and more so than most. Only the strong survived and they are still out there today. There are almost none that are taught to the public and maybe there are none.

Do you truly know if you are learning a fabricated MA or if you have true lineage? The proof is in the results. Have fun.

[David Jamieson]

bsh, there were many teaching kung fu in the west before communism and the cultural revolution took place.

the cultural revolution drove traditional martial arts underground and killed several masters from the Kuo min Tang but it did not destroy Kung Fu or it's integrity.

the only problem is those who lay claim to these styles and profess to teach them when in fact they themselves did not learn the arts in a traditional manner.

Bait and switch is common, probably more common than the teacher who would stand up and say --

"I learned part of this from a friend, some from a teacher, this form from a book and video and traded this form for that, after 10 years i have learned most of the style."
--

The proof is in the pudding, but the truth of the matter is that anyone out there teaching a style that is older than 100 years or so is likely teaching the style as modified by those previous to them.

Shaolin Kung fu is one of the greatest areas of debate because of the temples way of mixing traditional with contemporary wu shu and offering it all as Shaolin Kung Fu.
You also have many teachers in the west who profess to teach traditional styles and they are not. Or made up styles from various other styles and then giving the style a history.

One thing about the Shaolin is that canonical texts still exist. None of them make reference to specific forms and deal with principles and concepts behind delivered techniques moreso than how to do the technique itself. All technique is subject to interpretation of the practitioner. Technique is delivered for the most part, differently each time. But the guiding principle exists before the technique is manifest.

the PRC did a lot of damage to Kung Fu in china but not in the west. Many masters have been here with their Kung Fu for a very long time before communism even came to the minds of the chinese.

So, I do not think it is accurate to say that anything was totally lost.

peace

[joedoe]

My question is this - is it necessarily better to have a style that has been passed down exactly as it was formulated possibly centuries ago? Or is there some value to be added to a style by exploring, adapting, and refining movements (with the caveat that you stay true to the principles of the style)? Does it not make sense to improve by standing on the shoulders of those who have come before us?

[stonecrusher69]

I think when it comes to saying what is better that a system forms stay in tact or should they evolve.In general it should evolve and every generation should add something to it.Refine it maybe add something to it,or maybe take something out,but the problem is that people who modified the forms or add something new into the system have not mastered there style and understand it deeply enough to do this.In olden days of china you hear about how every system was tested in the battle field and if that style could not survive of make changes to make it better it dyed out.Today we live like that so how can we retain the best for our past while trying to improve and grow tomorrow?

[BSH]

Very good question. Here's my opinion.

The forms and meditations I study were developed in one of two ways:

1) By the monks over a long period of time (100's to 1000's of years).

2) Taught by heaven in its already perfected form for the specific person it was taught to. (To those of you who don't buy this, ignore this. I don't care whether you believe or not and won't argue about that).

In the either case, I would never change anything until I had complete understanding of the form or meditation. That includes purpose and effect. The thing to remember is that when something is changed, the purpose and effect may both change and therefore you will no longer be doing the same thing.

Finally, I don't presume to ever be able to reach the level of mastery that would allow me the ability to make that kind of adjustment. That level of mastery took the monks many tens of years of full-time study. I have a job and have only being training this specific system for 5 years. I've got a long way to go.

It would be fun to be able to do Kung Fu full time. Maybe I will try to become a monk and find some way to let others support me. What a dream.

[Yum Cha]

I have a different experience than many of you it appears.

To me the issue is not in protecting and carrying on the exact interpretation of the movements in the form, but the the lessons that are taught by the forms.

For example: You teach the beginners the external "classic version" but as you grow, you make it your own, and learn the lessons, interpretations, internal aspects and gain an understanding of the complexities of the art. You learn what can fit into the system, and what can't.

You should never forget the "classic versions" if you want to teach, as they are the first step along the path, but the road is to each their own.

Kung fu travels by the man, not by the style. Perhaps this is just a Pak Mei kinda thing, but I doubt it. Forever is a long time, evolution is an unrestrainable force.

[stonecrusher69]

Yes, I agree very good.

[mono68]

Awsome I also agree. tThis you can apply to any style.

[BSH]

Pak Mei was one of the five elders and in my opinion, if you claim a lineage to him, you should want to have the same forms, techniques and meditations that he taught over 400 years ago.

Remember, evolution doesn't always make things better. If a form is taught with a missing strike. The new form has evolved but is worse than the original.

If you study an Internal art, you could cause a lot of problems.

[joedoe]

OK, fair enough. I guess I wasn't clear in my statement - I assumed that anyone making changes to the art would be considered qualified to do so, not just some guy who has learned for 6 months. Clearly this is not always the case.

I also agree that you should teach things to beginners as close to the original as you know.

[BSH]

The problem these days is that people are deciding for themselves when they are ready to open there own school. In the old days, it was easier. If someone claimed a style without the approval of the Grandmaster of that style, they would cease to exist. You could count more on authenticity. Sadly, laws seem to prohibit this these days.

I am sad to report that over 90% of the schools I have visited that claim to teach Kung Fu are actually teaching Karate and are calling it Kung Fu.

[Tiger on Duty]

that white tiger is really suspect, i heard from my master that the dude was so hard he got kiked out of clc school cuz he coudnt soften up everything was like karate, there lineage story is exactly the same as pak mei's just the names are changed, thats really sad.

[BSH]

The White Tiger I train is far from hard. I have seen Karate being taught that was called White Tiger, nothing close to the authentic. Who was the "dude" you are referring to?

As to the history, it IS the same history as Pak Mei. Fong Doe Duk and Pak Mei were two of the five monks from Shaolin who escaped the destruction of the temple. Fong Doe Duk's style was Bak Fu Pai, Pak Mei's was White Eyebrow.

Re-read your Pak Mei history, who were the other monks and what were there styles?

Let me know what you find. I really am interested in who you were referring to as the "dude". There is so much fake stuff, in all arts, which damages the reputation of CMA in general. It would great to expose the charlatans.

[Ima Pseudonym]

i can also agree with bsh that real white tiger is nothing like the stuff we call karate. my first experiences in martial arts were within the walls of a Shorin-ryu dojo, and i can tell you white tiger (actually any kung fu that i have seen) is worlds away from that.

i personally think a unique problem Bak Fu Pai has is the fact that White Tiger is a "cool" name. some people who want to start schools with a strong name will choose it without ever realizing there is an actual White Tiger System. i have even found a learn by e-mail program on-line called white tiger kung fu. the person that created the program had no idea Bak Fu Pai existed, and sadly, judging by the free trial lesson he sent, knows very little about martial arts.

i would also like to know who the dude is in your story.

D

[BSH]

I still want to know who the "dude" is you are referring to. Any specifics?

[BSH]

Are you still out there? Any more info?

[stonecrusher69]

can you tell me more about your style.I never heard of mu dong.Do you mean the wu dong arts that come from wu dong mountain? LIke Tai chi, xing yi .

[md1]

hi stonecrusher69. Mu Dong is a close range fighting system like wing chun, no high kicks, alot of sweeps, block and attack at the same time, hit the hit.
Internal as alot of the wu dang styles, but not soft like tai chi.
sometimes soft sometimes hard. Yes it comes from the Mu Dong mts. but it's not xing yi or pakua, and we have our own tai chi but its also different than the two most common styles of tai chi.

[stonecrusher69]

Hello thanks for the infor.Can you tellme if there is any books published on this art.Also do you know of anyone that teaches it in NJ or NY? I like to know more about this style.Like how many forms are in the system,who created it ect.
Thanks for your help...

[stonecrusher69]

Thanks for the information.It seems your style is very rare if there is only 5 sifu who teach this art. Do you have a web site that I could look at so I can find out more about your style?Also,do you have a phone# I can reach you at . I would like to ask you some questions in private if possible.

Thanks again..

[md1]

SC69 my email is

mudongacademy@hotmail.com

drop me a line and give you my phone #