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Chinwoo-er
03-15-2002, 09:09 AM
Let's face it -- English is a crazy language. There is no egg in eggplant nor ham in hamburger; neither apple nor pine in pineapple. English muffins weren't invented in England or French fries in France. Sweetmeats are candies while sweetbreads, which aren't sweet, are meat.

We take English for granted. But if we explore its paradoxes, we find that quicksand can work slowly, boxing rings are square and a guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a pig.

And why is it that writers write but fingers don't fing, grocers don't groce and hammers don't ham? If the plural of tooth is teeth, why isn't the plural of booth beeth? One goose, 2 geese. So one moose, 2 meese? One index, 2 indices?

Doesn't it seem crazy that you can make amends but not one amend, that you comb through annals of history but not a single annal? If you have a bunch of odds and ends and get rid of all but one of them, what do you call it?

If teachers taught, why didn't preacher praught? If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat? If you wrote a letter, perhaps you bote your tongue?

Sometimes I think all the English speakers should be committed to an asylum for the verbally insane. In what language do people recite at a play and play at a recital? Ship by truck and send cargo by ship? Have noses that run and feet that smell? Park on driveways and drive on parkways?

How can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same, while a wise man and wise guy are opposites? How can overlook and oversee be opposites, while quite a lot and quite a few are alike? How can the weather be hot as hell one day and cold as hell another.

Have you noticed that we talk about certain things only when they are absent? Have you ever seen a horseful carriage or a strapful gown? Met a sung hero or experienced requited love? Have you ever run into someone who was combobulated, gruntled, ruly or piccable? And where are all those people who ARE spring chickens or who would ACTUALLY hurt a fly?

You have to marvel at the unique lunacy of a language in which your house can burn up as it burns down, in which you fill in a form by filling it out and in which an alarm clock goes off by going on.

English was invented by people, not computers, and it reflects the
creativity of the human race (which, of course, isn't a race at all). That is why, when the stars are out, they are visible, but when the lights are out, they are invisible. And why, when I wind up my watch, I start it, but when I wind up this essay, I end it.

ewallace
03-15-2002, 09:11 AM
English was invented by people
That should just about sum up any questions.

GunnedDownAtrocity
03-15-2002, 10:48 AM
. ... and people say pot kills brain cells.

ewallace
03-15-2002, 11:42 AM
I really have a deep respect for people that learn English when it's not their native language. People say that it is the hardest language to learn.

I have even more respect for people who learn English while smoking pot. That's gotta be tough memory work :)

Stacey
03-15-2002, 01:12 PM
Hungarian is the worst. Czech is pretty hard too.

Easiest? I hear Japanese or Spanish. Anyone try Esperanto? I can read it, but I can't speak it.

Its pretty cool

Felipe Bido
03-15-2002, 04:13 PM
Spanish is easy in the pronunciation, and when you talk; but it can be pretty hard if you go too deep, or you listen to two people talking. It has 4 past tenses, each word may have two genders, you can change the direction of the adjectives, etc.

anton
03-15-2002, 06:51 PM
If you're talking about learning a language in a country where it is not spoken - English is the easiest. No declension or conjugation tables to memorise. No need to worry a bout genders. Not too many grammatical rules. The hardest thing about it is all the exceptions - but they're easy to pick up through reading books and conversing.

chen zhen
03-16-2002, 10:51 AM
The word hamburger comes from the name of the city Hamburg in Germany. And yes, that has absolutely nothing to do with ham.;)

IronFist
03-16-2002, 01:26 PM
The hardest languages include:

Finnish: 14 noun cases in the singular and 16 in the plural (and you thought the 4 cases in high school German were tough).

Russian: "1. ...the Russian noun is burdened with locative and instrumental case-forms which some other Aryan languages had already discarded a thousand years B.C.
"2. Russian shares with German and Icelandic the three genders, masculine, feninine, neuter. Like German, Icelandic, and Lithuanian, it possesses two adjectival declensions, one for use when the adjective is attributive, the other when it is predicative (dom nov 'the house is new' --novij dom, the new house"). The irregularities of adjectival behavior make those of Latin fade into insignificance.
"3. The numbers 2, 3, 4, with fully devloped case and gender flexions form a declensional class of their own. From 5 to 30 numbers are declined like certain feminine nouse. From 50 to 80 both parts of the number are declined. From 5 upward the things counted must be put into the genitive plural. The numbers 2-10 carry a subsidiary set of forms called collectives for use where we would say, e.g., we were five of us, or she has six sons.
"4. The essential Russian vocabulary, like that of German, in inflated by a wasteful luxuriance of verb forms. Thus there are couplets distinguised by presence or absence of an infix which denotes repetition, or by one of several prefixes which signify completion. For instance, djelat and djelicat signify to do once and to do repeatedly, ya pisál means I was writing, and ya napisál means I have written. If you say write to him (at once) you have to use the perfective form napishi yemu. If you say write better (in future), you use its imperfective cotwin, pishi lushje"
(Bodmer, "The Loom of Language" pp419-420)

Korean: In my personal experience, while easy to read and write, is next to impossible to understand, especially when spoken fast. Korean has like 16 vowels or something, many of which sound almost exactly the same to my caucasion ear (especially the w+vowel ones), which native Korean speakers tend to slur together worse than Spanish does. And then, Korean does that double consonant thing just like some Indian langauges, where for example you have "ba" "bba" and "b'a" which all sound identical to me (note that this is not the same as a Japanese double consonant, like "gakko", which is easy to distinguish from "gako.") The difference between a korean "da", "dda" and "d'a" is the amount of aspiration each cluster is given. Most of my difficulty with this langauge is probably just because my ear was trained to understand English :) Studies have actually done proving that speakers of langauges where double consontants are not used (English) have a very difficult time telling the difference between them in langauges where they are used. Finally, Korean has all the different formality levels of words, titles, and verb endings and forms of deference that Japanese has, if not more.

English: Man, the next person who whines about English being difficult gets their ass kicked. Sure, English might have some tricky spellings that don't seem phonetically correct (ohhh cough, though, thought, or women, or even phlegm), and the English "r" is pronounced differently from any other langauge's "r", but English is easy for the following langauges (some of which as anton said):

1. No gender of nouns
1.5 No gender of articles preceding nouns
2. No noun cases (declensions)
3. Adjectives don't have to match noun number or gender or case
4. Verbs really only conjugate in the third person singular present(I go, You go, he/she goes, We go, you all go, they go).
5. No accents or umlauts added to vowels
6. No rediculously complex rules for making something plural
7. No "formal speech" (ie. you call your Boss "you" the same way you call your child "you" and in both cases the verb is second person singular)
8. Future tense is expressed by a word like "tomorrow" and not by a verb conjugation.

All that being said, the easiest langauge to learn remains Indonesian (from what I'm told). No verb conjugations, to make something plural you say it twice, and when writing it you put a "2" next to it. ...and a bunch of other easy stuff that I can't remember at the moment cuz I just wrote all that stuff about Russian and my fingers hurt.

IronFist

diego
03-16-2002, 02:21 PM
In the last weekandahalf, i have read about, commie's infecting peasants with aids, gda's soliloquay on weed
now this:D
goodthing i buy the mag religious, or i might forget why i came

diego
03-16-2002, 02:22 PM
...

anton
03-16-2002, 06:49 PM
You seem to be quite a polyglot, where did you learn all your languages - did you take courses or just teach your self?

ty govorish po ruski?

IronFist
03-16-2002, 10:38 PM
ty govorish po ruski?

Nyet :(

I mostly taught myself, although I have taken classes for Spanish, Japanese, and German. I've always been a language d.ork and I thought about majoring in linguistics, but decided on IS instead.

I really suck at most languages :) I know more about languages than most people, but I'm really only fluent in English. I used to be decently proficient in Japanese, but since I started college 3 years ago I haven't used it much and have forgotten most of it. Once this semester is over, though, I'm going to go back and learn it again. If I'm interested in a language it comes very easily for me (knock on wood).

My main problem is deciding on only one langauge to study at any given time. There are 3 I'd like to be proficient in right now and I don't think that I can successfully learn 3 or even 2 at once (not to the level of proficiency I'd like, at least). So, instead I concentrate on my university classes and learn zero :)

IronFist

anton
03-17-2002, 12:40 AM
What a pity I thought I could practice a bit of conversational russian with someone other than my parents.

I did a bit of nihongo in high school and I did Latin in year 12. Needless to mention I can remember very little of both. But since I've left school I find myself regretting not having learned a language. I could do a concurrent diploma in a modern language at uni (which would add a year of study to my degree) but I'm already doing a double degree that takes 5 years and don't really want to add much more. So I'm thinking about learning a language (deciding between Italian and Japanese at the moment).

So how do you go about teaching yourself a language? Do you find conversational practice essential? and if so how do you obtain it?
What resources (books tapes etc..) do you find the most useful?

PS
I only speak Russian cos I was born there.

Kristoffer
03-17-2002, 01:02 PM
I've never met a american who could make a good pronounciation on swedish words.. says alot about the language I guess :rolleyes:

WhtLotus
03-17-2002, 01:17 PM
I guess being a Spanish major has it's advantages... I can take as many language courses as I like, and they all count as credit to my degree.

Chinese, aside from the writing system, is actually pretty easy... you don't have to really conjugate any verbs! :)

9Dragons
03-17-2002, 02:25 PM
Learn indonesian.
Like Iron Fist said it is one of the easiest language to learn.
I think you can easily learn Indonesian in Oz.
Besides, you got quite a large population of Indonesians there.
Hook up with some Indos at your college, I am sure there are many and then go to Bali or something.



Originally posted by anton
What a pity I thought I could practice a bit of conversational russian with someone other than my parents.

I did a bit of nihongo in high school and I did Latin in year 12. Needless to mention I can remember very little of both. But since I've left school I find myself regretting not having learned a language. I could do a concurrent diploma in a modern language at uni (which would add a year of study to my degree) but I'm already doing a double degree that takes 5 years and don't really want to add much more. So I'm thinking about learning a language (deciding between Italian and Japanese at the moment).

So how do you go about teaching yourself a language? Do you find conversational practice essential? and if so how do you obtain it?
What resources (books tapes etc..) do you find the most useful?

PS
I only speak Russian cos I was born there.

IronFist
03-18-2002, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by anton
What a pity I thought I could practice a bit of conversational russian with someone other than my parents.


Sorry dude :(



(deciding between Italian and Japanese at the moment).

What are your reasons for wanting to learn each? Maybe I can help you decide :)



So how do you go about teaching yourself a language? Do you find conversational practice essential? and if so how do you obtain it?
What resources (books tapes etc..) do you find the most useful?


Remember that (generally speaking) the popularity of a language is directly proportional to the amount of books available that teach that language. For example, most large bookstores will have multiple shelves of books on Japanese, but probably no more than 4 or 5 inches worth of books on Korean.

There are a few things that I think are important when teaching yourself a language:

1. At least one good book. Many language courses suck, and I mean, really suck. An example of a sucky language course is "Colloquial Korean." Now, this course sucks because the book follows no logical order, and the tapes that accompany it just read random things from the book and aren't in the best order. The book will put words in the dialogues that haven't been introduced yet, that aren't in the dictionary in the back, and in some cases these words are irregular verbs that you won't find anywhere besides asking a native speaker. And halfway through the book, they stopped giving you translations of the dialogues all together. Korean is a special case because up until a year or two ago, there were NO good Korean courses on the market. I can recommend two excellent books now, however, if you're interested. One comes with a cd.

2. Exposure to current use of the language. Back to Korean. Where I live we get a Korean channel on tv, so pretty much whenever I want to hear Korean spoken I can. How people use a language always varies from what you are taught in language books, especially in languages with varying levels of formality. Renting movies in your target language is always good, too, as is knowing a hot chick who speaks your target language.

3. Knowing a native speaker. Who else is more perfect to answer your questions about word order, pronounciation, anything? One thing: Make sure your native speaker speaks an educated dialect of your target language. For example, if you were learning English, would you want help from a hick who can't speak well?

4. This book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0806512717/qid=1016436280/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_3_1/103-3604015-8922267).

Sorry if this is choppy. I'm exhausted right now so I'm probably not making a whole lot of sense.

5. If you can afford it, Pimsleur makes a tape program for learning langauges that is superior. It's all audio, however, but it doesn't suck like you would think it does. However, again, Pimsleur's Korean program sucks ass, but their Japanese one for example is excellent. Dr. Pimsleur did a bunch of experiments with memory and the ideal intervals to repeat words to learn them and stuff, and incorporated it into a langauge learning course. I'm not joking, these courses rule. Check eBay, and make sure you start with level 1 (the main courses are 30 lessons each, and sell for $300 or $350 new, but there are smaller, $20 "sampler" versions that have the first 8 lessons. Give them a try).

6. Desire to learn it. If you want to learn the language, you will be more inclined to study and retain the words.

Finally, based on my experience, I can say stay away from the following language learning series:

"Colloquial (insert language title)"
"Teach Yourself (language)"

Crap I can't remember any more. If you want to learn Japanese I can give you some good recommendations.



PS
I only speak Russian cos I was born there.

That's cool. I can read Russian script but I don't know what I'm reading. I guess if you were brought up speaking Russian you might not think it's hard, but everyone else says it's extremely difficult.

IronFist

anton
03-18-2002, 01:40 AM
Sorry dude :(


No probs :)




What are your reasons for wanting to learn each? Maybe I can help you decide :)
Basically

Japanese:
Love the culture. Like the language.
Learnt it at school from grade 6 to grade 10 (though I hardly remember a thing). I was pretty good at pronunciation.
Japan is Australia's main trading partner in Asia so if I decide to stick to a career in Commerce I may get a chance to put it to use proffessionally.
I'd love to go there some day.

Italian:
Love the culture love the sound of the language.
Learnt a bit in primary school (years 2-5 - needless to say I can remember sh1t-all).
Studied Latin from year 7 to year 11 (can't remember much). [This may be irrelevant but an acquaintance remarked that his learning Italian was made much easier by his knowledge of Latin.]
I'd love to go there some day.



There are a few things that I think are important when teaching yourself a language...
...Sorry if this is choppy. I'm exhausted right now so I'm probably not making a whole lot of sense.
Not choppy at all - very helpful actually. Much appreciated. Thank you



Crap I can't remember any more. If you want to learn Japanese I can give you some good recommendations.
Please do :)



That's cool. I can read Russian script but I don't know what I'm reading. I guess if you were brought up speaking Russian you might not think it's hard, but everyone else says it's extremely difficult.
Yeah its a **** hard language. I am only realising that now as I am slowly losing my grasp of grammar and some vocab. Most westerners also find the pronunciation very difficult.


PS - Some Korean chicks are hot :D

WhtLotus
03-18-2002, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by anton


[This may be irrelevant but an acquaintance remarked that his learning Italian was made much easier by his knowledge of Latin.]


That's not irrelevant at all. Italian is a romance language, and romance languages are based of Latin. If you have a foundation in Latin, languages like Italian, Spanish, French, Portuges, and Romanian should come rather easily.:)

Galadriel
03-20-2002, 07:57 AM
Its a bit of a long read, but quite good !!

Galadriel


Dearest creature in creation
Studying English pronunciation
I shall teach you in my verse
Sounds like corps, corpse, horse, and worse.
I shall keep you, Suzy, busy,
Make your head with heat grow dizzy,
Tear in eye your hair you'll tear,
Queer fair seer, hear my prayer!
Pray, console your loving poet,
Make my coat look new, dear, sew it!
Just compare heart, beard and heard,
Dies and diet, lord and word,
Sword and sward, retain and Britain
(Mind the latter, how it's written).
Made has not the sound of bade;
Say, said, pay, paid, laid but plaid.
Now I surely will not plague you
With such words as vague and ague.
But be careful how you speak,
Say gush, bush, steak, streak, break, bleak;
Previous, precious, fuchsia, via,
Recipe, pipe, studding sail, choir;
Woven, oven, how and low;
Script, receipt, shoe, poem, toe.
Hear me say, devoid of trickery:
Daughter, laughter and Terpsichore,
Typhoid, measles, topsails, ailes,
Exiles, similes, reviles,
Wholly, holly, signal, signing,
Same, examining, but mining;
Scholar, vicar and cigar,
Solar, mica, war and far.
Camel, constable, unstable,
Principle, disciple, label,
Petal, penal and canal
Waint, surmise, plait, promise, pal.
Suit, suite, ruin, circuit, conduit,
Rhyme with "shirk it" and "beyond it".
But is it not hard to tell
Why it's pal, mall, but Pall Mall.
Muscle, muscular, goal, iron,
Timber, climber, bullion, lion;
Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,
Senator, spectator, mayor.
Ivy, privy, famous. Clamour
Has the "a" of drachma and hammer.
Fussy, hussy, and possess,
Desert, dessert, address
From desire - desirable, admirable from admire;
Lumber, plumber, bier but brier/briar;
Chatham, brougham, renown but known,
Knowledge, gone, but done and tone!
One, anemone, Balmoral,
Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel.
Gertrude, German, wind and mind,
Scene, Melpomene, mankind.
Tortoise, turquoise, chamois-leather,
Reading, Reading (the town), heathen,
Heather. This phonetic labyrinth
Gives moss, gross, brook, brooch, mirth, plinth!
Billet does not end like ballet,
Wallet, mallet, bouquet, chalet.
Blood and flood are not like good,
Nor is mould like should and would.
Bouquet is not nearly parquet,
Which most often rhymes with khaki.
Discount, viscount, load and broad;
Forward, toward, but reward.
Ricochet, croqueting, croquet. Right!
Your pronunciation's okay.
Sounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,
Friend and fiend, alive and live.
Don't forget: It's heave but heaven,
Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven
We say, hallow, but allow,
People, leopard, tow and vow.
Mark the difference, moreover,
Between, mover, plover,
Dover! Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,
Chalice, but police and lice.
Shoes, goes, does; now first say "finger";
Then say "singer, ginger, linger".
Real, seal; mauve, gauze and gauge.
Marriage, foliage, mirage, age.
Query does not rhyme with very,
Nor does fury sound like bury.
Cost, lost, post, and doth, cloth, loth/loath;
Job, Job, blossom, bosom, oath.
Say "oppugnant" but "oppugns";
Sowing, bowing. Banjo tunes
Sound in yachts or in canoes. Puisne, truism, use, to use. Though the difference seems little, Do say "actual" but "victual". Seat, sweat, earn; Leigh, light and height, Put, pus, granite and unite. Refer does not rhyme with deafer, Feoffor, Kaffir, zephyr, heifer. Dull, bull; Geoffrey, late and eight, Hint but pint, senate, sedate. Scenic, Arabic, Pacific, Science, conscience, scientific. Gas, alas, and Arkansas (the state), Balsam, almond. You want more? Golf, wolf; countenance; lieutenants Host in lieu of flags left pennants. Courier, courtier; tomb, bomb, comb; Cow but Cowper, some and home. Stranger does not rhyme with anger, Neither devour with clangour. Soul but foul, and gaunt but aunt; Font, front, wont, want, grand and grant. Arsenic, specific, scenic, Relic, rhetoric, hygienic. Gooseberry, goose, and close but close, Paradise, rise, rose and dose. Say inveigh, neigh, and inveigle make the latter rhyme with eagle. Mind! Meandering but mean, Serpentine and magazine. And I bet you, dear, a penny, You say manifold like many, Which is wrong. Say rapier, pier, Tier (one who ties), but tier. Arch, archangel! Pray, does erring Rhyme with herring or with stirring? Prison, bison, treasure-trove, Treason, hover, cover, cove. Perseverance, severance. Ribald Rhymes (but piebald doesn't) with nibbled. Phaeton, paean, gnat, ghat, gnaw Lien, phthisis, shone, bone, pshaw. Don't be down, my own, but rough it, And distinguish buffet - buffet! Brook, stood, rook, school, wool and stool, Worcester, Boleyn, foul and ghoul. With an accent pure and sterling You say year, but some say yearling. Evil, devil, mezzotint - Mind the "z"! (a gentle hint.) Now you need not pay attention To such words as I don't mention: Words like pores, pause, pours and paws Rhyming with the pronoun "yours". Proper names are not included, Though I often heard, as you did, Funny names like Glamis and Vaughan, Ingestre, Tintagel, Strachan. Nor, my maiden fair and comely, Do I want to speak of Cholmondeley Or of Froude (compared with proud It's no better than Macleod). Sea, idea, Guinea, area, Psalm, Maria but malaria. Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean, Doctrine, turpentine, marine. Compare alien with Italian, Dandelion with battalion, Sally with ally. Yea, ye, Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, hey, quay. Say aver but ever, fever, Neither, leisure, skein, receiver. Never guess, it is not safe; We say calves, valves, half, but Ralph. Heron, granary, canary, Crevice, but device and eyrie, Face, but preface and grimace, Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass, Bass (the fish); gin, give and verging, Ought, oust, joust, scour and scourging. Ear but earn. Mind! Wear and tear Do not rhyme with "here" but "ear". Row, row, sow, sow, bow, bow, bough; Crow but brow. Please, tell me now: What's a slough and what's a slough? (Make these rhyme with "cuff" and "cow"). Seven is right, but so is even, Hyphen, roughen, nephew, Stephen. Monkey, donkey, clerk but jerk; Asp, grasp, wasp, demesne, cork, work. Say serene but sirene. Psyche must be made to rhyme with "spiky". It's a dark abyss or tunnel, Strewn with stones like whoop and gunwale, Islington, but Isle of Wight, Houswife, verdict but indict - Don't you think so, reader, rather, Saying gather, bather, lather? Tell me, which rhymes with enough, Though, Through, plough, cough, lough or tough? Hiccough has the sound of "cup" - My advice is - give it up. George de Trenite