Monk White Eyebrow daoist or Shaolin?

[tnwingtsun]

I have heard he was both,but first a Shaolin Chan Buddist Monk,then after the temple burned he retired to a daoist temple.Even though there have been drawings of him in daoist robes the Monks that passed on his art were Shaolin.Maybe it was a cool place for him to hang out in his old age?,maybe the robes felt good and silkie?I don't know,I wasen't there,Chinese history is so full of folklore its hard to put a finger on it,My Bai Mai Sifu says he was Shaolin,other Bai Mai schools say he was daoist,will the real Bai Mei please stand up?,love to hear some feedback from other Bai Mai/Bak Mai/Pak Mai schools,my mind is open

[fiercest tiger]

what i was told is ...
after the burning of shaolin bak mei travelled to the kwong wai temple & redeveloped his system.

so is there two "bak mei systems"? the original shaolin, & the redeveloped o'mei?? which one is the one we practise today?

i have an old article from inside kungfu on fut gar bak mei, which is buddhist.

remember cheung lai chung learnt from monk chuk fut wan, left him, then redeveloped it again, calling it bak mei pai...

will we ever find out?

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[billy_pilgrim]

All of the oral tradition I've ever been privy to is the same as what FT has related.
It is my understanding that what matriculated in the Kwong Wai temple is a Taoist system w/Buddhist roots. But as for how much internal or external is at play seems to largely be up to the practicioner...I've seen some very fluid Bak Mei and I've seen some very rigid Bak Mei.

[kull]

Popular legend has bak mei as a taoist priest. But can we be sure? Difficult to say for sure.

Can he be buddhist? also difficult to prove.

[fiercest tiger]

i know that talking religon is sometimes a bad thing, but can a devoted buddhist such as bak mei was (hopefully) training at sil lum jee for what 20 yrs or more- ill say 20 minimum.

just disrobe and become daoist and bat for the other side! did he do this to escape capture or to revenge the sil lum jee. some say he was kicked out for many reasons but its hard to see a buddhist become a taoist. buddhist and taoist are similar but different. bak mei could have doubted his buddhist beliefs and changed over to daoist, or was it more a infighting person thing he had against the sil lum jee.

remember the tai chi master also was a sil lum disciple and left to the daoist side.

something to think about- nice thread :)

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[billy_pilgrim]

I can see a Buddhist/Shil Lum exponent modifying his art using Taoist principles. There are other historical examples of this. If the White Eyebrow monk was exposed to Taoist martial systems, and then chose to "internalize" his own Shil Lum art based on these principles, his art has succesfully become Taoist, whether he himself has undergone any conversion is another story...

[TigerFork]

just a personal observation,
chan/zen buddhism (ie. the type that was a shaolin) has a lot of similarities to taoism, more so than other schools of buddhism...so perhaps the change wouldn't be so radical.

[sifuchuck]

The way I heard it this Bak Mei was the teacher of Ma Fu Yi--the one they called Atsat--the one who turned the temple over to the Chings. I also heard thae Bak Mei killed Gee Sim, the teacher of Hung Hei Kwan.

I don't know if this is true or legend or what, but I am quite certain that while Cha'n was accepted more readily by the Chinese because its precepts were translated in Taoist terms, the two are still very different belief systems and not at all compatable. In fact the Taoists felt threatened by the incursions of the "foreign" religion.

If this guy changed from Buddhism to Taoism then it was a big change and there very well could have been political reasons.
:rolleyes:

[kull]

If we accept the legend that bai mei was a buddhist monk and then he killed Gee Sim; then wouldn't that cause a buddhist (a devoted monastic religion with a clear code of behavior) to become a taoist (a more secular philosophy/religion). Kinda like Christian story, of Man's fall from Grace.

Again we have no histrorical proof of either. Just b/c we know he learned at shaolin does not mean he is monk. He could very well be taoist or even regular person.

[tnwingtsun]

Saw a pic of Cheung Beng Fatt(CLC's son),in the background there is a scroll that says "Monk Bai Mei comes from Buddist Shaolin",if he was Buddist why would he change to Daoist??,I'll get a scanner in a few weeks and post the pic.

[fiercest tiger]

maybe the 2 factions joined together when the ching came in. buddhist where being slaughtered and they became daoist to hide from the authorities.

so they went to the kwong wai temple, bak mei and fung do duk. :D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[kull]

How do you know for sure bai mei is buddhist?

As i say again some ppl. now say he was not even a real person.

[CannonFist]

I think Pak Mei is more popularly known as a Taoist in terms of legendary stories. Often my friends that are Chinese will ask me about the kung fu style that I am doing and when I say that its Pak Mei, they would nod their head and say, "Oh thats Pak Mei Tao Yan's style" (in Cantonese it means White Eyebrow Taoist man). And I am talking about Chinese that doesn't know much about martial arts but have watched quite a few Chinese martial arts movies.

[tnwingtsun]

leaves me wondering kull,were any of the other "five elders" real?? I mean its hard for me to buy the story that Nun Ng Mui (Wu Mei) developed Wing Chun from watching a fox and a crane fight(or was it a klingon and a vulcan).I've seen the Wu Mei people and they look NOTHING like the Wingtsun/Wing Chun I've seen.And they claim to come from the Nun,why so differant?

[fiercest tiger]

hi there!

wu mei is plum flower style, i think wing chun was made by a student of ng wing chun. this person named it after her teacher, well thats what i have read... i dont know if that is correct? i dont do wing chun.

i heard wu mei is quite good, has plum flower poles and other stuff. i read an old article that ken lo i think he was the master in the uk at the time in combat magazine.

c ya ;)

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[tnwingtsun]

Hiya Tiger,I've got a tape that has Ken Lo on it,I'll put that in the box for ya too,my friend who gave me the tape said that there is another Wu Mei org. that looks nothing like Ken's Wu Mei,I belive Ken says in the tape that Wu Mei is another name for the Nun Ng Mui(the Shaolin Nun that trained Wing Chun),I'll watch it again, peace bro

[eightgates]

Wu Mei is the Mandarin pronounciation of the Cantonese Ng Mui. There appears to be two different ways to write the name. In both, Wu (Ng) means the number 5. Mei (Mui) is written as either "plums" or "branches" depending on the Chinese ideogram. The other organization you are referring to most likely belongs to the late Wai Ming Chau who was Ken Lo's school brother. Both studied under Grandmaster Pang Hop (Peng Hsieh in Mandarin).

[kull]

Are the five elders real? I don't know for certain. I don't know of any historical records, of reliablility that mentions them. But also written chinese records rarely have to do with martial art history. If there are any can someone tell me about it. I would definately like to know.

[MoQ]

...Of the important masters, there were 5 altogether that escaped the razing of Fukien Shil Lum. They didn't escape together, with the exception of Fung Do duk and Bak Mei. There were NO "5-Elders" and they never gigged clubs together and were never a real group.
To the extent that they can be crossreferenced and are held by lineages that claim them, they have reality and these people may be the only ones rightfully concerned...

[tnwingtsun]

Current writters and website operators mistakenly identify our founder as a Taoist prist.As a result Bai-Mei has been called a taoist system.
From the perspective of Chinese culture and the history of Chinese religions,most writers who presented Bai Mei the Chan Monk as a taoist priest overlooked the an important distinction between the taoist as a philosopheror the man of tao who practices the way of tao and the taoist priest who practices the religion.(religious taoism).
Modern Bai Mei Shaolin started with CLC.Hence the ultimate authory on the orgin of our system rests with him.He,his children and his disciple Chan Suey Dor(also known as Chan Dor) of New York all agreed on one thing,that Bai Mei is a Shaolin system.This statment is supported with the following discovery:Chang's oldest son Beng Lum produced a book,Bai Mei,Chang Lai Chuen in 1989.On the first page we find a pic of CLC sitting with the background of a Chinese word for longevity flanked with two colums of characters.On the next page another shows his son Chang Beng Lum sitting against another frame of writting,but flanked with the same colum of charactures.The right one says:Bai Mei transmits the true superior art.The left one says:Inside the halls of Siu-sud(as apart of Mt.Song,being another way of referring to the Shoalin Monastery)are exhibited the results of wonder.There is a pic of Chang Beng-Fatt,it shows him under a colored banner bering this message: "Bai Mei came from Chan Buddhism"It evolved from Shoalin's martial arts inside the Shaolin Monastery of Den-feng, Mountain Song in Henan.However how did the notion taoist religion creep into the history of Bai Mei?
HB Un's book has a photostat copy of a drawing of a person in taoist robes was represented as the "portrat of White Eyebrow"The chinese statemaent stated that this was the "genuine of Bai Mei,the spirtualy real person(ibid)"Pointedly,the next two pics contain a caption under the pics stating:"the monk Chuk Fat Wan, the teacher of GM CLC in chan buddest garb and GM CLC in taoist robes.The author apparently could not discern the difference between buddhist and taoist ones.Most amusedly,both Chuk Fat Wan and Chang Lai Chuen actually had buddist robes.
Third the book,Emperor Chen Toured Southern china(Shortened as Emperor Chen-Lun) that was written about 150 tears ago described the fight between Bai Mei and Ji-sin.There is not much significant difference between the two versions(Hung-ga's),except(1)that in this version of the story Bai Mei and his students are the good ones,and Ji-sins students are the abusers of the martial arts.Ji-sin was supposedly guilty of spoiling his students
(2) Bai Mei and his students were authorized to capture those abusers who had mudered some innocent people
(3) that although the two versions agree that that Bai Mei and Ji-sin were both members of the five elders of the Shaolin system,in the book Emperor Chen-lun,our founder the Chan Monk Bai Mei was addressed sometimes as a man of Tao,sometimes as old Monk(pg.189).It is self-evident that any elders of the Shoalin Temple must be buddhist,and as abbots of temples they were most certainly Chan Buddhist Monks,not priests of the taoist religion.
Evidently,the writer used the word "Tao" in a dual sence.Thus,man of"Tao" can be interpreeted to mean both the taoist religion practitioner and also to whoever pursues his spiritual path in a taoist way,He not only used "men of tao" to cover both Ji-sin and Bai Mei,but also to identify Ji-sin's(Gee-Shin)students.To futher substantiate this point,consider the following points.On page 182,Ji-sin was reported to say"because they(Bai Mei and his disciples) do not treat us as fellow men of the same school and the same tao". Next the writer describes the situation immediately before the fight saying..."We see two men of tao,hurriedly entering reporting to Ji-sin,Sifu,really bad news"
The religion of Chan Monk Ji-sin has never been qustioned.Thus,the religion of his colleague of the same school and of the same tao,should not be questioned and most certainly not called a practitioner of the Taoist religion/Taoist Priest

[Shaolin Master]

Agreed.
Thanks for the effort to outline it so thoroughly.
What was Bak Mei's real name ? or monk name ?
what generation ? which Fujian Temple (and thus or was it Henan ? His ordainer/Predecessor?
These are other interesting questions


Regards,

Shi Chan Long

[meltdawn]

Just a word of kudos for Ken Lo Shing Gwei:

He's a very outspoken representative for martial arts and Chinese culture in NYC. He is the Director of the China Arts Council. Aside from wu mei pai, he teaches qigong, calligraphy and cooking.

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[tnwingtsun]

I wish I knew,and will try to find out,I hope this and the last post helped Kulls question on books about this subject.
Chan Monk Jok Fan-yuen(Chu Fa yun) who taught Monk Lien-sang(Lein-shang) and Chang Lai-chuen
raises some interesting points.
The word "Jok" as in Jok Fah-yeun has been most misunderstood.It has been used as one of the two family names of Buddhist in China.It refers to the ancient name of India.
"Tien-chu" and "chuen-chu".And "Jok" ("chu") is the shortened form of "tien-chu" and "chuen-tu" on account of "chu' and "tu" as used in the Chinese language of Han and Tang periods(202BC-907AD?)
It reminded all Buddhist that Buddha came from India or Tien-chu or Chuen-tu.
Another surename for the Buddhist is "Sak"(Shih).
It is the shortened version of "Sakyamuni",
the name of Buddha.For example,the Shaolin Monks have "Sak" as their generic family name; and in their given,the second word indicates their generation in the genealogical chart,the third word is the given name;for intance,Sak Su-i.
As to Chan Monk Bai Mei,I don't know,I would like
to find out though
:)

[kull]

The book Emepror Chen Lun. This is not a historical book that we can rely on. It is a story book that was written some time ago(actually 150 yrs. is not long at all, but rather recent)At 150 yrs. ago, 1850, Bai Mei, if there is even such a person, would have been dead long ago. That is why i doubt it can be used as a historical reference.

In the end we are only taking the words of people who don't really have any evidence to show that he was one or the other(buddhist vs. tao).

But does that really matter? whether he is tao or buddhist? I have read stories that say he tao others say he is buddhist. I have practiced for many yrs. and my father told me when i asked him, does it make ur kungfu any better?

[tnwingtsun]

Now that you've got me on a roll,please feel free to correct me at anytime,I'm here to learn.
"Shaolin" as used in martial arts circles refers to its origin at the Buddhist site on one of the highest mountains of China called "Song" in the province of Henan,China.
It was first built built in 495 A.D. In 527 A.D.An indain Monk named Buddhidarma came to settle down in this monastery,preaching Chan Buddhism fist of its kind in china.He was given credit for two developments,the begainnings of chan buddhism and Shaolin Martial arts.
As such fountainheads,Shaolin temple has become one of the most famous places on earth.
The residents and elders of this temple are chan monks.The Chan Monks produce their diciples in chan buddhism.There are some Taoist temples on Mt. Song who produce taoist priests.The Monks do not produce priests and vice versa because they are two different faiths with seperate doctrines.I should mention in passing that in chinese,there are three different characters referring to three different spiritual sites: "Chih" refers to the temple for buddhist monks(seng) and nuns ("ni");
kuan to the taoist temple,and "mu" to to the temple of cultural princible heros like Confucius and Lord Kuan and other deities like god of household and kitchen. :)

[tnwingtsun]

As I am not Chinese,I still do not comprehend,weather Buddhist,Taoist or whatever
makes for the better MAs,your fathers words are wise indeed,IMHO both have many things that have contributed to the MAs,My point is that CLC and his family was very adiment about their systems
Shoalin roots.
Perhaps this might shed some light on my point.
In the areas of martials the training differences
at the elementry level between the Shaolin and the Taoist approaches: The Shaolin are marked by the four concepts,namly,ecape,strick,hopping and control,whereas the taoist approaches,the conquest of softness over swiffness and that of stillness over excessive actions.
Having presented these different approaches it leads me to belive that Bai Mei is a Shaolin system(the topic).
As a footnote to the history of this system there is an interesting point.Before Chang's family moved to Kowloon in 1959,Chang taught his system as a species of Emei Shoalin because his teacher Monk Fah-yuen came from Sichen province of china where Mt. Emei was the center of Buddhism and Shaolin Kung-fu,he named some 18 schools as sites
of Li-chuan Kuo Shu("Sites of national martial arts for the commendable effort in preserving life").The name sounds close to to his goven name(Lai-chuen).In this way,he identified himself with his school and reveled the starting point of Chinese Shaolin training in the strong sense of survival which is shared by all the members of the animal kingdom.Ignorant of this section of modren White Eyebrow history some writers felt free to present "White Eyebrow"(Emei Shaolin before 1959) as one taoist element of their system.
But you're right Kull good KF is good KF,
I guess some people want to find out the true roots.IMHO,it looks more like Shaolin.
Is their discord between the Buddhist and the
Taoist?
Or is this just a history issue

BTW WingTsun embraces Taoist princibles
as its mainstay even though they claim
their roots in Shaolin.

[This message was edited by tnwingtsun on 03-15-01 at 11:34 PM.]

[CannonFist]

I agree with you that the techniques in Bak Mei has more of a southern Shaolin flavour than Taoist.

For example in my Bak Mei there are some opening salute routines for some forms, and I don't mean just the left fist and right palm on top. One of the movements of the opening routine is called "Boy pays respect to Buddha". This has Budhist overtones. What about the well known technique of "Woh Siong Tuet Gar Sar" which means "monk disrobes" which suposedly gave Cheung Lai Chuen a scar on his chin. When you say "woh siong" in Cantonese it means a Buddhist monk and not a Taoist monk, a Taoist monk is called "Dao Shi". Of course these are all just names. Even the main body mechanics of swallow, spit, float and sink are concepts from the southern Shaolin.

However like in all things Chinese there are bound to be some Taoist influence to it. For those that has the Ng Hung Mor form, the 5 elements are Taoist concepts.

A good example of a near full Taoist martial art is Bagua. Even Taiji which many think is Taoist has strong Buddhist/Shaolin influence.

[CannonFist]

The techniques of Bak Mei may be Buddhist/Shaolin in nature but that still does take the image of Bak Mei being the invincible Taoist fighter which has iron shirt skills which is instilled in me from legends and stories that I heard and seen on films since childhood days. But of course as a kid I know of Bak Mei as the bad guy and I would want to be the hero, Hung Hei Goon who kills Bak Mei with his Tiger Crane techniques. Ah! the good old days.

[Lau]

Hi,

Imo this discussion is not so much about pak mei being buddhist or taoist but about pak mei history in general.

Reading this thread and the old session/ new session Lung Ying thread makes me wonder if there is also an old/new session difference in Pak Mei. especially since there are stories told that the monk didn't exist and that CLC created pak mei as we know it today. But in that case he must have had some form / forms on which it is based........

Interesting to hear that Chang's oldest son Beng Lum produced a book, Bai Mei, Chang Lai Chuen in 1989. I have never heard about that. Does anyone have this book? Is it still available?

Regards, Lau (lalau88@hotmail.com

[wisdom mind]

great to see a pak mei thread with no flames...keep it up brothers/sistren

[kull]

Chinese martial art history is problematic at best.

If we take the story of bai mei being from Song Shan Shaolin, then why doesn't it exhibit any of the characteristic of northern styles? ex.long fist boxing, northern mantis, tong bei...

If we say moves are like buddhist style; i think i can make a case for taoist too.

Bai Mei movements that are done slowly to promote qi flow. Then done explosively. Similar to Chen Tai Chi?

Cotton belly-
Soft(yin) but hard as iron(yang). Taoist philosophy, yin yang inseperable, like cotton belly.

Tun to fo chum-
Tun- absorb, yeild (yin); when being attack absorb.
To- spit, attack(yang); absorb attack then spit. Hence, again we see philosophy of tao, yin yang inseperable.

If CLC did say bai mei is buddha or tao, what proof does he have? Other than him breaking a few of your bones for disagreeing with his view...LOL

I know it is rather unfair b/c i playing "devil advocate", i think is the correct term. I say this b/c i don't really think there is enough proof for either case.

TNwingchun- What does CLC naming his 18 schools after him have to do with Mt Emei?

Personally i feel Bak Mei is buddhist on Mon. and wed. when i practice sand bag training.
On tues. and fri. I feel he is taoist when i practice qi gong. :D

[CannonFist]

Kull: you made some valid points.

Some have regarded Chen Taiji as being more of a Shaolin/Buddhist art which is derived from Pao Chui (Cannon Fist). One Taiji master, Wu Tu Nan had even gone so far as stating that Chen Taiji is not Taiji. However others have accused him of playing politics.

Tun, To, Fou, Chum are southern Shaolin terminology. The more Taoist or Taiji like way of saying it is the "opening and closing" movements. Of course the taiji guys state that their expression of these energy is more refined eventhough its similar.

Whatever it is all Chinese martial arts will exhibit a certain amount of Taoist quality to it.