Grappling(JuJitsu) Vs Wing Chun

[tiger7]

Greetings My Kung Fu Brothers:)

I'm a student of Wing Chun and at my school we are not the majority of the population of students. Guys from other classes such Muay Thai(which I use to tkae but found very boring but I did develop a strong kick and proper boxing techniques), and especially Jujitsu. I heard one guy say yeah I might try Wing Chun but hey it won't help you on the ground. I said to myself how can you say Wing Chun won't help you on the ground when you don't know anything about the art. In other words at my school we are viewed as the odd fellows most of the time. I'm a technical person(Computer Programmer) and I find Wing Chun interesting because first it's a thinking man art and secondly it's sensitivity attributes and thirdly it is technical. I'm just now slowly moving toward the Chum Kui level and my Sifu emphasises to me is to perfect "The Little Idea" section as I progress along. What attributes of Wing Chun could defend yourself when facing a grappler(Jujitsu). I was also thinking about taking some Aikido on the side due to some of the trapping I noticed in that art. What do you guys suggest?

[Alpha Dog]

It's just not taught to beginners.

[tiger7]

Hmmmm it's amazing how someone can determine whether you are a beginner or not which was not my question so I hope someone other that this Dog head dufus can give me a more intelligent insight than there is grappling in Wing Chun but uhhhh not for beginners.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by tiger7
Greetings My Kung Fu Brothers:)

I'm just now slowly moving toward the Chum Kui level and my Sifu emphasises to me is to perfect "The Little Idea" section as I progress along. What do you guys suggest?

I suggest you stay with Wing Chun and learn all it has in it.

[Spark]

Originally posted by tiger7
Greetings My Kung Fu Brothers:)

I heard one guy say yeah I might try Wing Chun but hey it won't help you on the ground. I said to myself how can you say Wing Chun won't help you on the ground when you don't know anything about the art.

YOu should tell him his grappling won't help him standing up! :D

Put it this way. Real life fights aren't NHB or UFC, that's why most people think BJJ is so great. And it is - in a controlled environment. In real life, where there might be more than one opponent, I'd take WC over BJJ anyday - besides, is the one guy just going to stand there and watch while you try to get his friend into the mount?

Hope I said something useful!! :p

[reneritchie]

It's as much art as artist. WCK is a conceptual system, and these concepts can apply to many situations, provided you experience them, practice for them, and develop skill in them. WCK in and of itself can't intercept a punch, nor can it prevent a double leg take-down. All of that is up to the WCK person to cultivate. Most if not all spend lots of time working against punches. If you're concerned about jiu-jitsu, you'll have to spend as much time working against that.

In general, WCK has strong Fan Kum Na (Counter Seizing and Locking). Part of this is positioning, which provides for good leverage for us and bad for opponents, another part is tactile sensitivity, part is adaptibility which lets us change and flow to better positions, part is the Duen Ging (short power), etc. (Jiu-jitsu also develops many of these, as do other arts, so again artist plays a big role).

Best thing to do, however, (as I've said before) is not to wonder about it but try it out. Then it won't be hypothetical for you. Grab a friend who does JJ and do some friendly practice. Figure out what you can do to keep the advantage, then train it.

I agree with Alpha Dog, though, you need to stick with it. A lot of the tools you'll find helpful in countering other styles are in later sets and movements. I'd also recommend concentrating on one thing at a time, and not splitting focus with Aikido or any other art, since you're basically trying to train your reflexes in a *very* specific way and doing something else could hinder you developing those reflexes.

Your mileage may vary, of course,

RR

[Starbuck]

I'm no master but at my school we've done some drills in grappling situations and I can tell you what I've learned. Basically, the number one lesson I've taken away is: DON'T TRY TO OUTGRAPPLE A GRAPPLER. You are a Wing Chun guy, stick to Wing Chun principles. Namely, don't fight force with force, and ATTACK! ATTACK! ATTACK! A couple of examples may illustrate what I'm talking about.

Consider a wrestler trying to shoot in on you. He's coming in low, trying to get his arms around one or both of your legs and lift you up to put you on the ground. Accept what comes: withdraw your lead leg to put it out of his reach by stepping back with it and reversing your stance. Now he is stretched forward and leading with his FACE. :) Free hands charge in: Biu Jee or Phoenix Eye to his eyes. :eek: Repeat as needed.

Somehow you find yourself on your back with a guy kneeling over you, choking the life out of you with both hands. Guess what? If he can reach my neck, I can reach his. :) As he is leaning over you his weight is pushing down on you (and him). Grab one of his wrists with one hand, pointing your elbow out to the side. You jerk your arm out to the SIDE. Your sideways force is 90 degrees to his downward force. No matter how strong the guy is, you can jerk his hand away from your neck, at least for a moment, which is all you need. When you remove one of his supports, his weight will jerk him downwards towards you. Accept what comes & Free hands charge in: Simultaneously with the wrist jerk, Biu Jee with your other hand into his downwards jerking neck. :eek: Accompany what goes: As he jerks back from the Biu Jee in his neck, swing your leg up and around his head (your calf is in front of his neck/face). Push down with leg and roll forward to add momentum to his backwards jerk, thereby rolling him back off of you. Free hands charge in: Stay tight to him as you roll forward, striking his groin as it opens up and/or whatever other targets present themselves.

These are just a couple examples of drills I've done. While these applications are by no means exhaustive of every type of situation, they illustrate Wing Chun principles (which is proper, since ours is a principle- not technique-based art). Namely, give the grappler something to think about that's more important to him than what he's doing to you. :D

[azwingchun]

Well put, my words exactly. I believe Wing Chun doesn't focus on the same techniques as a JJ practitioner, though if you look hard enough you should or will find counter techniques. Some may disagree, I have met long time Wing Chunner's out there who have said that they would get killed if ever they were taken to the ground, I don't feel that this is a weakness in Wing Chun, though I do feel this is a weakness in thier awareness in Wing Chun. IMHO.;)

[reneritchie]

Hi AZWC,

Well said as well!

I think there are a lot of misconceptions out there. First, practicing it in class is about as realistic as a grappler practicing against a classmate pretending to do "wing chun" in class. Second, jiu-jitsu itself means "soft art", so, while tools differ, as do methods, there's a lot of conceptual crossover (they should not crash force, should relax, should maximize efficiency, should use tactile sensitivity, etc.). Third, grapplers can also eye-gouge, groin grab, bite, or whatever, right along with you, and if you're unlucky enough to be on the ground, they can often do it from a better position (which prevents you from doing the same, or at least lets them do it better). A good grappler will control you prone the way you control someone standing with Chi Sao (which means they have protected their vital areas and opened up yours for attack).

Does this mean WCK can't work? He11 no! Like you said, it can work fantastically well as long as we practitioners let it. That means: practice, practice, practice! Don't underestimate your opponent! And while WCK may be the best thing since sliced bread, *our* individual WCK may not be yet, so more practice (best with grapplers with the same hours in years that you have in WCK, or *more* so you can learn how to use your WCK in a closer to realitic way - if you really want to use WCK against grapplers).

You don't (and shouldn't) try to out-grapple a grappler. But you also shouldn't let fantasy or ego get the way of good old practice, practice, practice. Otherwise, to quote Yip Man, you might be tricked. And like Hawkins Cheung is oft-quoted as saying - the theory is great, but can you do it?

Rgds,

RR

[azwingchun]

This is what I tell my students just in differnt words. I tell them to only expect the unexpected, never think that you have all the answers.;)

[anerlich]

Yawn.

At my school we train both Wing Chun and BJJ intensively. We've earned the Jiu Jitsu guys' respect and they ours. It's much nicer to be able to treat these guys as friends and fellow stylists rather than tie yourself in mental knots wondering how and whether you might be able to beat such people if you get into streetfights with them (a MOST UNLIKELY OCCURRENCE).

"I heard one guy say yeah I might try Wing Chun but hey it won't help you on the ground. "

"YOu should tell him his grappling won't help him standing up!"

Both these statements show an equal level of ignorance IMO. Each style can enrich the other. BJJ has standup and most crosstrain. WC has grappling and ground-applicable techniques.

"don't fight force with force, and ATTACK! ATTACK! ATTACK!"

sounds like sound BJJ strategy. BJJ is an art that relies on positioning, leverage, strategy and technique, not brute strength. The highest level of skill uses the opp's movements and force to defeat him. Sound like something you know?

"Somehow you find yourself on your back with a guy kneeling over you, choking the life out of you with both hands. "

A BJJ person will not use so dangerous a tactic as his balance is vunerable. And that "choke" is a sad joke, no self-respecting BJJer would use so ineffective a technique.

If he's choking you from the mount (by one of various means), his head will be right next to yours. You will have no room to throw an effective strike. If not his arms will be kept well away from where you can reach them, like in some sort of modified boxing or WC guard, or his chest will be right on your face with his arms right to the sides where you can't reach them. Pretty hard to get decent punching leverage from here, certainly not with straight chain punches. Take your elbow away from your body, and the most basic attacks for him will be cross armbar, upper figure 4, collar choke, cross arm choke, or ground and pound with fists, elbows, forearms and head, thumbs in the eye, fishhooking, etc. per WC, and he is in a much better position to do that to you then you are to him.

"If he can reach my neck, I can reach his."

You can, and by doing so will give him a perfect setup for the cross armbar.

There are shoots and shoots. I've met wrestlers who can fake a jab and shoot a double leg as fast as a competent boxer can throw a jab-cross. They are rare, but as someone said "expect the unexpected". I'm not saying that WC WON'T work against a low shoot, just that it might not be as easy as some would like it to be.

"besides, is the one guy just going to stand there and watch while you try to get his friend into the mount? "

No. The knee ride position, however, is extremely useful for dealing with one grounded person if you are worried about it going multiple (which you always should). You can G&P from here, as well as apply chokes or joint attacks. You can be off and running in and instant. BJJ's major weakness is multiple opponents. That said, only the best WC guys have any chance in making it work against two or more determined opp's either.

I train standup and ground, but I also do interval sprints and improvised weapons because in a multiopponent situation that's the most realistic defense. I regularly spend a half hour a week practicing knee ride switches and turns interspersed with punches and elbows on a heavy bag lyiung on the floor, too.

The more I train BJJ, the more I find similarities with WC. The forms have chokes, throws and takedowns, cutting armbars, arm drags, knee ride and more grappling techniques in them.

One needs to respect other arts rather than regarding them irrationally. The best MA instructors I know always look to build bridges between arts and their practitioners, not create divisions and mutual distrust based on ignorance.

Rene and azwingchun are correct.

www.combatcentres.com

[Martial Joe]

Take it from me...a grappler and a striker...


I do wing chun for stand up...wrestling for the ground...

Wing chun has helped my grappling I believe.It is because I can feal what the guy is doing by all the sensitivity training.

I soon hope to get into BJJ and mix submission with my wrestling.
I think wing chun will help me there to.

But there is one thing I must say...wing chun alone is not for the ground, but it makes a hell of a ground n pound with wrestling.

Dont tell people it is and make an ass out of wing chun.

[Nichiren]

This is my opinion but I think if WC pratitioners would spend as much time training to fight on the ground as JJ guys does we would be as good.

We will never be as good on the ground because of the time spent training this aspect. Tell the JJ guy to try some standing sparring instead.. ;)

[zuxingpogi]

I saw two senior instructors practicing their grappling teachniques once at my school, and the entire building was shaking. Cement falling of the roof e.t.c. hehehe Majority of the time though they wouldn't be stuck on the ground, they would, cause alot of pain, get out of whatever grappling technique was being used and get back into more wing chun happy positions, before deciding to go back into gappling mode again for practice sake.
It has no real connection to the question I just thought I might add it in.
:D
-Bernard

[reneritchie]

Nichiren - J(i)u jitsu has atemi waza (striking) just like WCK has some grappling, and I agree on emphasis being a big factor. Another point to consider is "re-inventing the wheel", which is what some JJ people would have to do stand up and some WCK people would have to do prone, simply because their coaching (and hence the passed-down experience) comes from people (or in some cases generations of people) with the same emphasis. So, a good WCK teacher can give you all sorts of tips and pointers about what to do and (just as importantly) not to do while standing (and even standing grappling) but may not know the opportunities or danger zones on the ground (as a JJ teacher may have the reverse wisdom/lack of experience). That, of course, translates into practice, practice, practice. This is a long hand way of saying, if you're intent to stay pure to one systemitized approach (WCK or JJ or anything else), you'll likely have to work *harder* at whatever area your art doesn't stress (standup for JJ, prone for WCK) in order to balance things out. (If you even care about that sort of thing to begin with - lots of JJ and WCK people don't).

Rgds,

RR

[Mr Punch]

I agree that it's the person rather than the style. And I also agree that if you don't practice on the ground you won't learn how to fight on the ground.

I think aiki, and by extension much of jujutsu, are fantastic compliments to wing chun. I have learned a whole lot about my aiki through wing chun, and vice versa... bu-u-u-t, aiki is a pain to learn. The system takes too long, and I'm sure to become proficient in jujutsu of any kind takes a long time too. So while I agree with Anerlich, unless you have loads of time to spare to put in that intensitivity (is that a word?! - ahem - and I teach English too :o ) in both, don't take anything else up.

If you have time, and willing partners, check it out... but don't dabble.

[reneritchie]

Hey Mat,

I'm not as sold on the Aiki with WCK. There seems to be a lot of overlap that would drain time that way (WCK has enough standing grappling, and generations of experience in applying it, , and a more immediately applicable engine for delivering it, IME). The ground aspect is just different enough from how WCK has been practiced historically that, if someone wants to be able to to do it, they'd need to put time into it.

Have you had different experience wrt the overlap in WCK and Aiki? (any aspects the Aiki hits that the WCK doesn't?)

Rgds,

RR

[dezhen2001]

That's an interesting quesiton Rene!

I trained in Aikido for a few (4) years before i met my present WCK Sifu :)

IMO, from watching (and feeling) people of a much higher level than myself in either art, they are similar but do things in a different way. The way you can redirect and control a persons movements (position and balance), using minimum energy to achieve maximum effect, structure and position over brute strngth - they are both very similar...

People say Aiki has no strikes, and WCK no grappling, but actually under the surface (as you know) you can find a great many treasures :)

Both skills take a long time to understand and develop, but once you do they are very powerful!

Both styles are more 'conceptual' than 'technique' based, so you can adapt the principles to many situations...

Both systems do things very differently though, and i know form my own experience that it was confusing to leanr both at the same time.

david

[vt108]

"I agree that it's the person rather than the style. And I also agree that if you don't practice on the ground you won't learn how to fight on the ground."

Yes. And if you don't practice high kicks you won't learn how to fight with a Taekwondo practitioner. If you don't practice a lot of locks you won't learn how to fight with a Aikido practitioner etc. Please...Do you really believe in this? I wonder about how Wong Shun Leung for example could win all of his fights. I'm sure he practised every style in the world :-)
When I hear things like that I realize there are only few people in the world who really know what WC is about.

[reneritchie]

vt108 - The trouble is, everyone thinks its the other person who doesn't understand WCK. Practicing TKD isn't necessary to fight against someone who knows TKD. Fighting against someone who knows TKD is. Lest we forget, Yip Man's team went to fight Muay Thai boxers in South East Asia, and did not do well at all. By the same token, you don't have to learn a grappling system, but if you want to realistically be able to defeat someone who grapples, its good to train against compentent grapplers. Any experience you can gain in training is something you won't have to cope with on the fly, when stress is high, conditions may be sub-optimal, and lessons all the more painful.

(And FWIW- even in the old days in Foshan, they would arrange "friendly" matches with long bridge, grappling, and other systems to gain experience).

Rgds,

RR

[vt108]

Rene, I'm not sure I understand you, so I prefer to ask. Are you saying that if you want to fight against a particular style you need to practice this style?

[reneritchie]

vt108 - Nope, I'm saying you need to practice *against* the various methods (in a generic sort of way- against long bridge style fists, high kicks, shoots, etc.). That way, when someone whip-hammer's you, thai roundkicks you, or goes for a double-leg, you aren't surprised and already have some idea about what works and what doesn't. Same goes for ground. If you're attacked on the ground (while sleeping, reclining, etc.) or you slip and fall (icy), or you get taken down (better shooter than you are shoot-defender), if you've trained how to use your WCK already that way, you'll be familiar, comfortable, and better able to apply it when you need to.

Rgds,

RR

[anerlich]

When I hear things like that I realize there are only few people in the world who really know what WC is about.

Seeing this reminds me of an epigram from a non-MA forum:

"Most people think that 90% of the people in the world are idiots, but that they belong to the other 10%."

The various "know your enemy" quotes from Sun Tzu, et al, indicate that knowledge of another style's key strategies will improve your chances of victory against it. you don't necessarily have to embark on a lifetime study of it, but becoming xenophobic about it and thus not exploring is foolish.

It's a big wide world out there. Lots of information from lots of different sources, easily available. It's up to you whether you you want to take the many opportunities to learn available to you or not. Putting down others who disagree with your opinion indicates defensiveness, insecurity and a lack of mental flexibility IMO.

Another appropriate quote from another forum from IMHO one of the better MA coaches on the planet:

Because of the positive lifestyle changes it can make, including survivability and longevity, people take martial art training too seriously. Often this results in martial art becoming drama. Drama queens love gossip, contraversy and conspiracy-theorizing.

Ultimately, it's all good. There are many paths to the same goal, and many modes of traveling.

IMO it's better to look for common ground with other MAs and their practitioners, rather than look for reasons to create divisions. The statements of narrow-minded and bombastic individuals in any style are almost always best ignored.

[vt108]

Yes, you all are right. Just today I start my BJJ training. Or maybe it would be better if I buy a gun. It will take me a life time looking for a practicioner of every style so I can look how they attack me.

"When I hear things like that I realize there are only few people in the world who really know what WC is about."

I did not think I belong to those few so next time make sure what I think before you write things like that:

"Most people think that 90% of the people in the world are idiots, but that they belong to the other 10%"

"Putting down others who disagree with your opinion indicates defensiveness, insecurity and a lack of mental flexibility IMO."
And I was looking for a good psychologist so long time....

[anerlich]

Dude, I don't presume to know (or care) what you are thinking but I found that "only few people in the world " line pretty condescending.

If you don't train BJJ or do firearms, your choice. My instructor, who I suspect many would agree belongs to your "few people in the world", trains in and teaches BJJ, and requires me to demonstrate proficiency in it, knife and single and double stick fighting, and firearms, as well as the traditional WC weapons, to complete my education in his version of the Wing Chun system. This is the 21st century.

If you feel you can get everything you need out of your WC training as is, more power to you. I wish you well. If you feel you have to criticise those who feel differently, I see that as your problem, not mine.

[vt108]

Good luck in your training! All I can say is that known masters like Yip Man, Wong Shun Leung and others did not practice BJJ and other things and they won all the time. Why? Because Wing Chun has all the answers but unfortunatelly only few (like I wrote before) possesed skills so they don't need to complement Wing Chun with other styles. And I know I'm not in the "few" yet. I don't know if I ever will be "one of the few", probably not. But I can draw a conclusions from the past and I know that Wing Chun never had to complement its arsenal.

If somebody feel offended by my words I apologize. It wasn't my intention to do so. I just can't understand why having such a great system people want to loose time for a bs.
This is my opinion.

[Haggis]

vt108. You wrote>
All I can say is that known masters like Yip Man, Wong Shun Leung and others did not practice BJJ and other things and they won all the time. <<

Please forgive me if I offend you, but that's a fairly specious argument. The fact is that the entire field of martial arts training is DIFFERENT to that of the time of Yip Man. People of his era dealt with, for the most part, stylists who trained a single system, and had exposure mainly to the arts of their locale.
I'm fairly sure YM didn't visit Brazil and challenge Helio Gracie......so he wouldn't know about BJJ ;)


Nevertheless, we live in a world where martial artists have access to material from around the globe, and modern training methods. People with any sense of reality realise that
crosstraining is a must, assuming you have a thorough base upon which to build.
Similarly, people who trot out facile replies like "Oh if somebody tries to take me down, I'll eye jab etc etc" simply haven't had anybody good try and do it to them. It's that simple.

Individuals with high skill levels in wing chun like Yip Man, Sum Nung etc may get away with that, but I'm not one of them, so I look at how other good practitioners of real fighting styles attack, and deal with them accordingly. I do this by training with them (and in my eyes against them), rather than ignoring their existence just because "Yip Man didn't need to....."

The ostrich hides his head in the sand, and thinks that danger isn't there. See any parallels?

Tata,
Haggis

[Alpha Dog]

Personally, I think if Yip Man could do something with Wing Chun that other practitioners cannot, even after years of training, then they are doing something differently. From what I understand, Yip Man wasn't the kind of guy to lay out all his cards on the table.

I still believe that WC has all you (aka anyone) need, if you have the time to learn it all. I guess it depends on how dangerous a world you live in, because that is going to dictate the speed with which you need to acquire certain skills of self-defense.

[Mr Punch]

vt108. I didn't say practice bjj on the ground. I said "practice on the ground". I said don't practice anything else that takes too much time. I have plenty of faith in wc thank you. And in mine.

Thanks Anerlich, for fielding this geezer, who doesn't wanna waste time with bs, but posts x times before apologising for winding people up and suggesting that they said something they didn't. You're obviously more patient than I am.

Rene, interesting question, and one that I ask myself after every chi sau session. I still have no answer. What I do know is I haven't done any grappling in wc that is half as effective as that in my aiki. Now, I'm not saying this is because of a defect in the system, I think it's because my teachers have never been shown them properly. This worries me. That means their teachers weren't shown them properly, so how far does this go back?!

The only conclusion I have come to so far judging by what people have said on the forum,is that some people teach effective grappling in wc, and some don't! Judging also by the pictures on your system's website, your system does more grappling than the ones I have trained in. Whether it is effective or not, I can't say without feeling it. Looks interesting.

I do think wc is a good enough system not to use much grappling though. I can only use my aiki techniques when someone has failed in their wc structure. And then it is because: (1) my wc technique is not good enough to respond in a wc manner, or (2) when the aiki technique is more direct, or it accomplishes something that I don't know how to do in wc (eg: control of someone so that they can't hit me, and/or so I don't have to keep hitting them to stop them from attacking me).

The second case is more rare, but it does happen.

Aiki's evasive footwork can also be useful when you are in a tight spot. It's a complete surprise to suddenly find you're behind them. If you mess up the time and are intercepted, wc's centreline recovery is perfect to put you back on target and cover yours.

Also the use of tegatana with tai atari. Tegatana is the handblade, tai atari the body slam. The energy is different to any I've come across in wc: it's a strike through centreline which then follows through in a cutting motion, ending in standing where they were before they hit the dirt. I've used this a few times in chi sau and sparring, and once in the street.

If I had started wc before aiki, I would have never checked out aiki. Now, I don't practice aiki because of unrelated problems I have with the style, but I do intend to go back to it. I intend to become much better in wc before I do though, and will also continue wc for the rest of my life.

It's just more options!

[Mr Punch]

To follow from dz's overlaps:

control of centreline is the biggie. If you take most aiki moves and shorten them, with a strong irimi (body entry), and a whippier, more penetrative action (to suit the shorter range) instead of the bigger cutting one... you get wing chun! Most aiki hand movements are circular, but if you shorten them, you are effectively taking a route between two points on a very large circle: pretty **** close to a straight line!

[dezhen2001]

Indeed Mat!

Something i've found mucking around with my Aiki buddies is that if my WCK structure is correct, it's hard for them to do a technique on me. If not, then i usually hit the ground ;)
If i stay relaxed and regain my posture, i cna usually change to something else.

david

[vingtsunstudent]

some of you are the reason that wing chun is goin' down hill so fast. why do you even bother with such little faith.
i will start by saying i know for a fact that wong faced at least one high level judo player(don't know his name but do know they now believe this bjj comes from ) & i'm sure he would have at least had to deal with people with knowledge in shiu shao & chin na. there are also a number of stories of both yip & wong having to deal with multiple opponents to which i have never heard any from a bjj guy.
so please lay off the 'they never dealt with grapplers garbage'
i can understand that most these days don't have the time or inclination to train as hard as they used to but that is your short coming not wing chun's.
again you all put down vt108 for having faith in what he does without knowing the first thing of his sifu or where his knowledge & belief comes from.

'The only conclusion I have come to so far judging by what people have said on the forum,is that some people teach effective grappling in wc, and some don't! '
the only conclusion i can come up with from this is that if they are teaching grappling in their wing chun then it's not wing chun.
i have seen, tried, used & probably chocked out more people than most grapplers these days probably will in a life time, so believe me i know both sides of this argument.
if you want to start on me with that 'but you've done it, how can you critisise', well i did 4 lessons about 8 years ago.
i have many friends who practice(some of which have been to brasil on more than one occassion to train)& teach this & they understand one thing that some of you fools don't & odviously never will 'IT IS THE MAN NOT THE STYLE'

do you want to know what some grapplers think of ving tsun- well about 2 years ago one of our senior girls was going out with a friend of mine.(he is one of the senior student here in machado bjj & one of the ones who has travelled to brasil aswell as the states to train) they decided to try and organise some matches between the 2 school(she never told our instructor)
such was there concern that they were actually lining up elvis sinosic(of the ufc) to fight me, the funny part is that i hadn't trained actively in quite some time due to the births of my children, yet they were that concered they were going to bring in a pro fighter for this little old bum who basically only knows ving tsun.
i could go on all day as this is something i DO know alot about but then again it & what i have already said is probably only falling on arrogant & deaf ears anyways.

i will finish by saying this 'if you had as much faith in the art as you do not, then you would go a hell of a lot better'

if you train hard, you'll not only be hard, you'll be hard to beat.

no ring, no rules, no referee. THE STREET( the real ufc)
vts

[Roy D. Anthony]

The thread title should say Grappling in WIng Chun, not Grappling vs. Wing Chun. SMILE. Hope this helps!!!:)

[Nichiren]

I like to think of it this way; If I where good enough at WC I wouldn't have to bother with JJ.

And no, I'm not a newbie at WC!

And yes, I really enjoy BJJ. It is like chi-sao with your whole body.

[anerlich]

VTS,

My school actually has a pretty good relationship with the Machado Organisation (we are a Will/Machado affiliate). We actually have John Will (BJJ Black Belt) giving a seminar at our school on Saturday. He and his senior guys are all very good, very helpful, and very polite. I've met them outside of formal situations and no one's ever put down WC - or for that matter, any other style - in my presence.

From Newcastle we've had Sean Kirkwood and Luke Beston at our school. Everyone who hangs out on MA forums on the internet knows Luke is the highest profile BJJ troll in the universe, but he actually posted some highly complimentary stuff about Rick Spain and our Academy on MMA.com (now MMA.tv).

Rick gets a lot of respect form those guys, including Elvis, as he has had a long ring-fighting career. Some regard him almost with awe. Elvis said to Rick "Jeez, you're shorter than me!" when they met the first time. Rick trains with the Sydney Machado guys about once a week.

Wing Chun's still our base, alpha and omega. But only a fool would ignore an opportunity to learn like this if it were dropped in his lap, as it was with me.

I agree with Roy and Nichiren. you can grapple using WC and its principles. If you do BJJ for a while, you see lots of stuff with WC analogues.

[vingtsunstudent]

hi anerlich
i know sean & am friends with luke, ask him if he knows me(anthony coleman) & he will probably have a good laugh as he knows what a lazy fuk i am. he was at my house for new years 2 years ago & i've been out on it with him & the boys a few times.
we have no trouble with them & nothing but respect for each other.
this whole incident was sorted when i rang sean & told him that the first either me or the instructor had heard of it was through another friend of mine from ving tsun who now trains with them.
it seems the girl had assured them it had been all cleared by her sifu, which it had not. sean laughed because he knows bill(the teacher up here)& actually had thought it was strange.
unfortunately these matches may have seemed friendly but when you deal with peoples egos(esp. in a smaller place like newie) things can change very quickly. the thing with elvis was from my friend but i'm sure he wouldn't lie, maybe they needed him as i wiegh 114 kilos & they may not have anyone in my wieght(ps i don't really think i needed my butt kicked anyways:D nothing but respect here, he trains hard & fights hard) besides that it was nice to find out off someone that hey your names been thrown in to fight without even being consulted
out or the 4 or so lessons i had i think 2 were with sean besides that i know a few of our guys have also been to train with him.
the other person i trained with was niel bodicott who fought in the oz ufc.
i personally have nothing against bjj & if ving tsun wasn't available it & boxing would be my chioces.
as for luke(pitbull) being a troll- that's him alright. he is secretly in love with matt furey you know;)
we should definitely hook up sometime, even if you come up here i have 16 wrestling matts & we could have some fun. i also am one of the very few who have vidoes of my sifu dealing with the whole of the first & second forms that you may be interested in watching & also give you an insite as to why i view ving tsun the way i do.

as to why i get upset with some about the way they view wing chun, it's like i said b4
''i can understand that most these days don't have the time or inclination to train as hard as they used to but that is your short coming not wing chun's.''
that is my personal belief & i'm sorry for those that in reality have no respect for the art that they practice.
regards
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

sorry
barry is my sifu.
vts

[vt108]

"The fact is that the entire field of martial arts training is DIFFERENT to that of the time of Yip Man."

Yes it is different. First of all people trained earlier for REAL because their skills was the only thing they got to stay alive in many situations. Today you don't need to know martial art to defend yourself. You can use a gun for example. But if you want to really know your style you have to practice the way it was practiced before. I hope you understand what I mean, if not, I'm sorry.

"I'm fairly sure YM didn't visit Brazil and challenge Helio Gracie......so he wouldn't know about BJJ"

Yes, and if he would, he surely would loose this fight :)

"People with any sense of reality realise that crosstraining is a must, assuming you have a thorough base upon which to build."

Yes, especially those who don't know their own system or those who does't want put more effort in training. So you are saying that anyone who don't crosstrain have no sense or reality?

"Individuals with high skill levels in wing chun like Yip Man, Sum Nung etc may get away with that, but I'm not one of them, so I look at how other good practitioners of real fighting styles attack, and deal with them accordingly."

Who are those "other good practitioners"? Because I know good practiotioners who need anything besides Wing Chun to deal with every situations.

"The ostrich hides his head in the sand, and thinks that danger isn't there. See any parallels?"

I think you have hide your head somewhere else than in the sand. Just take it out of this place. PEACE!

"Thanks Anerlich, for fielding this geezer, who doesn't wanna waste time with bs, but posts x times before apologising for winding people up and suggesting that they said something they didn't. You're obviously more patient than I am."

Believe me. If I were not at work I wouldn't waste time for writing all this. Unfortunately I can't practcie at work.

[Alpha Dog]

such misguided aggression. You guys weaned off the pottie too fast?