choy lay fut's tuet jin kuen

[RAIN]

i got a problem whit the translation of the name . i'd read shooting arrow fist , but this means :

a ) the fist that shoot the arrow ?
or
b ) the arror that was shooting ?


also one more question :


the first front kick in the form is making without blend the knee ?
like a ascendent and rect kick ?

[anton]

I think you may be referring to "Iron arrow fist"

[yutyeesam]

Rain,
Tuet Jin Kune means Iron Arrow Fist. The first kick, you do in fact bend your knee. If you saw TMW's Panther Production tape, I think he keeps it straight, but since then, he's done it with a bent knee...these days he also does a simultaneous left hand panther strike at the same time of the kick.

Hope that helped.

123

[CLFNole]

The two times the kick you are referring to are always done with a simultaneous left panther fist followed by a right panther fist when the leg comes back down.

Tat Mau Wong's Tuet Tsin Kuen is a bit different from the original as he made some slight modifications.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

I agree with Yut Yee Sam, the knee is bent on the kick. Most of the kicks in CLF forms are front snap kicks to the groin. Even though in the form you kick high in a real fight your kick would never go above the opponents waists. However, you'd want to deliver your kick as though you were kicking through your opponent, so we practice them high.

[premier]

I wonder how close this is to our Tid jin cheong kuen. Anyway, the part you're talking about doesn't sound familiar =)

[yutyeesam]

You raise a really really interesting point, Premiere. Between the Chan Family branch, the Hung Sing branch, and the Fong Yuk Shu branch (I don't know a thing about what Buk Sing looks like), we have forms of the same name, but look absolutely nothing like each other! For example, the Hung Sing branch's Siu Mui Fah is totally different from the Fong Yuk Shu branch's Siu Mui Fah. And I'm guessing it is radically different from the Chan Family branch's Siu Mui Fah.

Same art, same titles, totally&completely different forms. Bizarre.

123

[RAIN]

anyone can tell me why the form is called " iron arrow " ?

[CLFNole]

This is quite true with a number of forms. I have seen Doc Fai Wong's Ping Kuen and while the overall composition of the form is similar to our version (Lee Koon Hung) it is different in many respects. I have a book on Fong Yuk Shu's Ping Chan Kuen and there two there are some similarities but again the form is very different.

I think this is true of many martial arts. As kung fu is passed on from generation to generation some sifus retain the information better than others. If a student is very sup (stupid) and later opens a school the forms will likely be different than the way he was taught. In another example some sifus will have a tendancy to favor certain techniques and modify the forms thus another form of change.

Bottom line it really doesn't matter whose version of what form you know but rather how well you can mimic, execute and apply the teachings of your sifu.

Peace.

P.S. As far as the "Iron Arrow" translation. Lee Koon Hung didn't translate it as this. He explained that it means something like "breaking holds" relating to the multiple attacker principle which is the main point of this form.

[yutyeesam]

Right. Iron Arrow is the literal translation, but the meaning is, to quote Tat Mau Wong, "...Tuet Jin Kune...is called 'Combat form' (the closest translation in English) the stances are quick and tranisitional and yet at times solid, low and rooted."

In the Fong Yuk Shu branch, there's a technique called "Jin Choy" (means arrow punch), which is a vertical punch to the face coming from the hip, while twisting the body. I have yet to encounter this in a Hung Sing form, where all the vertical fist punches are tsop choys to the gut, and all the straightline face punches are horizontal flat fist panther strikes.

CLFNole, are there any Jin Choys in your forms?

123

[Fu-Pow]

CLF Nole-

I believe that Lee Koon Hung translated it as "Circle Out" hand form. Because it can be used to "circle" out of a gang attack. For example, Chay Sun Sow Choy can be used to move behind the opponent.

As to YutYeeSam said about the variety of CLF forms. I must admit it seems a little bit strange to me as well that there is so much variety in the forms. I think it probably has to do with the arts origins as well as the shear number of practitioners.

By all accounts CLF started out as an underground MA designed to be taught to the masses to overthrow the Ming dynasty. At one time there was like 40 or so kwoons teaching CLF in one province of Southern China. And it seems to me that these kwoons would teach to anyone who was interested in overthrowing the government.

So basically the art itself started out with a lot of practioners. With that many people, personalities and levels of understanding it is no wonder that there is so much variety.

Plus the nature of CLF is inclusive so that if a Sifu learned something from another style this could easily be absorbed into the style.

[CLFNole]

Fu-Pow:

I am guessing since you never met Lee Koon Hung that Sifu Mak translated it to you. He never used "circle out" maybe to prior generations before us. At an instructors class one day we asked him and he confered with one of my sihings who was the chief instructor at the time and said it was difficult to translate and had to deal with breaking out of an ambush. I later asked sifu's daughter (my wife) how she would translate it. To my frustration she said that while "iron arrow" could be a translation that the chinese characters use in the name had to do with fighting in a war. Trying to get her to explain this is very difficult since she is not a kung fu person.

Personally I am not real big on english translations I learned the techniques and terms in chinese and teach using the chinese names. It is good for the students when you can say the entire form in chinese makes them learn by listening.

Peace.

[JAZA]

Just like language USA english is different from Uk english.