Ground Fighting and Kung Fu [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

grogan

03-16-2002, 06:30 AM

My Sifu once said to me when I asked about was ground fighting necessary to learn, he said "You find yourself on the ground give up your kung fu no good you are sh*t, wait to die down there"! I think what he meant was if you train 1000 hours in Kung Fu and then get taken down to the ground where you have had 20 hours experience what use is that 20 hours going to give you when you couldn't even stand up with a 1000 hours training, you should have trained an extra 20 hours in Kung FU and you wouldn't be down there being choked. Don't underestimate groundfighters either they can turn you into a truckies knot in 3 seconds (coming from experience) but in my controlled spar I wasn't allowed to place a hammer hit on the back of the skull when he came to tackle me or to simply do what Pak Mei did to Iron Head and simply twist the head until it goes snap. Ask your SIfu he should show you some techniques how to simply deal with some of the take downs which might simply be when he is sweeping you try not to fall by holding his throat, Who will die first? And pigs have had no experience in ground fighting but try and hold one of them down (in a non sexual manner of course) and watch them wriggle away.

Black Jack

03-16-2002, 09:14 AM

Most would not consider this kung fu but since Burma has a small Chinese ethinic group, I will say the grappling art of Naban, IMHO its Burmese as you see none of it in China.

Either way it is a amazing asian grappling system, just rare here in the states, so its hard to find a player.

old jong

03-16-2002, 09:31 AM

Whe should create pig style or is it pig stile?...:rolleyes:

wolfkiller

03-16-2002, 09:52 AM

fukien ground boxing(shaolin dog style fist) uses ground fighting, but the ground fighting techiniques are strikes( mostly kicks), not grappling( at least that is what i have heard)

BSH

03-16-2002, 11:11 AM

IMO, a complete martial art system prepares you for everything. The most important thing to understand is that you never want to end up on the ground. Most likely your opponent has friends and the ground would be their friend and your enemy. First you should be taught balance and rooting, but you should also know what to do if you do go to the ground.

Stacey

03-16-2002, 11:28 AM

8 step does, monkey style has for a long time. There is folk wrestling in china as well. The chinese groundfighting styles use a lot of ground striking and try to get back up.

8 Step does it in a super low stance. This way you can take down and break multiple people. Thats what I read We do learn ground positioning, chokes, and ground locks as beggining training, usually durring sparring class which is usually nhb style. Sometimes Sifu limits us to 30 seconds to pull something off or get up, because of the "friend factor"

Water Dragon

03-16-2002, 11:33 AM

I've not seen any competant groundfighting in Chinese systems.

Nobody74

03-16-2002, 11:54 AM

Stacey, so you do practice ground fighting in your kung fu training. What kind of kung fu style do you practice? And is your ground fighting technique a part of your kung fu style?

Shooter

03-16-2002, 12:05 PM

I've not seen any competant groundfighting in Chinese systems.

:rolleyes: Nope. No competent ground-fighting in CMAs.

How many Tai Chi schools field MMA fighters?

Grappling-Insanity

03-16-2002, 12:16 PM

Yes Kung-Fu has groundfighting. Is it similar to BJJ? no, but there 2 different styles. Most KF groundfighting i've seen (which is not that much) seems to be involved in getting off the ground rather than fighting on the ground.

Shooter

03-16-2002, 12:21 PM

Grappling Insanity, where have you seen this? And what system (style) was it?

Water Dragon

03-16-2002, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by Shooter

:rolleyes: Nope. No competent ground-fighting in CMAs.

How many Tai Chi schools field MMA fighters?

Yeah, that's right. I also don't like BJJ's stand up, Boxing's take down defenses, or Muay Thai's qinna tecnique. Why is it that when you point out a weakness in CMA, everyone wants to whine and pretend that they have no weakness instead of adapting? CMA's got a lot of good stuff. Groundfighting ain't one of 'em though :rolleyes:

Shooter

03-16-2002, 01:50 PM

everyone wants to whine and pretend that they have no weakness instead of adapting? CMA's got a lot of good stuff. Groundfighting ain't one of 'em though

:p

How long have you been studying Tai Chi? How have YOU adapted in your own studies to address the full scope of combatives? What research have you done into the system that would allow you to make such a general statement?

Instead of adapting? I have no formal training in BJJ or any other submission wrestling/ground-fighting system. None. I don't own a single instructional video either. How is it then, that the TCC training I offer is effectively preparing people to deal with MMA fighters in the MMA arena ( as I'm sure we both agree that MMA is the best format for testing ground-fighting skill-sets)? I like to think the answer is that I've done the research, and the work required which allows me to adapt MY understanding of Tai Chi accordingly. Again, what have YOU done to understand YOUR Tai Chi? Why do you need to go outside of it, as you say, instead of adapting?

Groundfighting ain't one of 'em though? I don't believe you have a broad enough perspective or relative experience to make such an absolute statement. That's my problem with what you're trying to make others believe. Don't blame CMAs for your lack of understanding, experience, and practical knowledge. :)

Also, could you please answer the question I originally asked and that you quoted me as asking? Thanks.
:cool:

LEGEND

03-16-2002, 03:01 PM

Agreed...CMA has never proven itself in ground fighting. Who knows why??? Do they compete...and if not...why not???

Mr. Nemo

03-16-2002, 04:58 PM

Shooter, have you been able to use tai chi to effectively fight on the ground?

Yung Apprentice

03-16-2002, 07:47 PM

Stacey is talking about 8 step praying mantis. I've seen a little bit of there ground fighting, I think Earth Dragon said it's called "low mantis" it looked pretty good though. Might not go into detail as much as like BJJ, but I think practioners can hold their own if they HAD to fight there. Plus they teach you how to get back to your feet, something BJJ doesn't teach. They have locks, and chokes, and they go more into detail on striking while on the ground, more than BJJ. But it's also hard to find, not to many mantis schools teach it, or go into great detail. If you could find a mantis school that taught it good, and goes into detail, then you should take a serious look at that school. If you have more questions chech out that Northern Mantis forum.

Water Dragon

03-16-2002, 07:55 PM

Yung,
About the only thing I can pull off so far in BJJ is standing up. The art is built around a concept known as positional dominance. It's pretty similar in concept to out stance work. You can't get a sub unless you get a dominant position. By nature, the dominant positions allow you to stand up. Guard passes lead directly into standing back up. The tech can be adopted so you don't have to play the sub game.

Water Dragon

03-16-2002, 08:03 PM

Shooter, To answer your question I've never seen a TaiCHi school produce MMA Fighters. The school does produce recognized San Shou champions though.

Black Jack

03-16-2002, 08:26 PM

Shooter,

You mean you only use your tai chi training and principles in ground fighting, for some reason I thought you cross trained in some ground based arts like catch as catch can, sorry if I am wrong.

If it is just Tai Chi, where do you get your submissions, positional tactics, holds and so forth, just curious and interested.

Peace.

Shooter

03-16-2002, 10:03 PM

Water Dragon, fair enough. :)

Mr. Nemo, yes (sort of). I don't use Tai Chi. It uses me. :)

Black Jack, yes to your first question - Tai Chi is a ground-based system. It's hilarious that you'd mistake me for a crony. :p

It's not a stretch by any means to have operable base (root) from any position in order to apply Tai Chi's 8 Gates, sticking, following, linking, adhering, chin-na, and fast wrestling.

Tai Chi isn't a "style" or an "art." It's a system of movement and energy management. You can't approach it as a directory of techniques, or as containing a particular M-O. It's too non-specific in that regard.

Submissions aren't really the focus. Nor is positional dominance. Those things are left to the player to create and innovate as they apply pressure and fill the gaps. Tai Chi's positional strategies apply in any combative format. I've explained certain aspects of these ideas in great detail on this forum, and elsewhere.

I'd like to be more specific in discussing positional strategies, but my guys have matches coming up next month, and the enemy might be lurking. :p

jimmy23

03-16-2002, 10:30 PM

". Plus they teach you how to get back to your feet, something BJJ doesn't teach."

lol. incorrect

jimmy23

03-16-2002, 10:31 PM

WHat event are your guys competing in, shooter?

Shooter

03-16-2002, 10:45 PM

jimmy, the promotion is the WFF (World Freestyle Fighting Championship). It's a Western Canadian event.

wolfkiller

03-17-2002, 04:13 AM

whoa there, i've never heard of tai chi chuan ever having ground fighting. tai chi teahes practicioners to stay off the ground. not fight on it. and there is no Chinese martial art that teaches ground grappling,

ground striking/striking an opponent while you are on the ground is being taught in some systems/styles, but ground grappling? i haven't even heard of rumors.

Yung Apprentice

03-17-2002, 06:04 AM

Sorry guys, didn't know any better, but thanx for correcting me.:) I'm still learning hence my name! But at least I'll know better in the future. I just thought since BJJ wants to be on the ground, one wouldn't give up there dominant postion by standing up. But obviously as you both pointed out, one can, if they wanted. Once again I apologise for my ignorance.

jimmy23

03-17-2002, 08:13 AM

good luck to your guys, be sure to post results (and be careful of bikers, Im sure you heard what happened last n night at Ultimate Athlete)

Black Jack

03-17-2002, 08:41 AM

Makes sense Shooter, the conceptual to the technical, I think its cool that you are working your art for such events, though man oh man must you get a lot of bad looks from the chi hippy's.

:D

Shooter

03-17-2002, 03:28 PM

Wolfkiller, thatÕs the kind of thinking which has kept CMAs on their feet all this tyme. ;) DoesnÕt it make sense to have a good understanding of how thatÕs accomplished against a determined grappler? ItÕs only one apsect of the totality of MY Tai Chi though. And in a perfect world, we wouldn't need to worry about it.

Ground-fighting (positional wrestling, striking, gouging, tearing, joint-locks, chokes, etc) is the topic of this discussion, and thatÕs one of the things IÕm claiming to have evolved from Tai ChiÕs movement and energy management principles.

Black Jack, IÕve never payed much attention to how others restrict their learning. Nor do I allow anyone elseÕs perception of Tai Chi to stifle my own creativity. Tai ChiÕs basic philosophy is change, adaptation, evolution. All things in good time.

Tai Chi holds every possiblity to become anything. The only thing holding it back is the self-imposed limits of its players.

Gee, too bad there's no Tai Chi schools fielding MMA fighters. Probably something in the Water Dragon 'em down. :D

Water Dragon

03-17-2002, 06:39 PM

LOL @ Shooter. If you only had any idea exactly what it is that joins my disciplines together.

red_fists

03-17-2002, 07:18 PM

Me confused.

Been reading a few of these ground fighting MA Threads and I think my definiton differs from other people's.

BJJ Guys equal ground fighting with ground grappling.

CMA teachers ground fighting but not much ground grappling.

They way I see it ground grappling can be part of a larger set of ground fighting skills.

Now I see ground grappling usefull if I am facing a single opponent, But I can't see myself wrestling a guy on the ground if there are multiple or even 1 standing opponent left using only ground graplling skills.
Now I see BJJ as a sports orientated MA and thus the 1on1 enouncter seems to be the most common.

Whereas CMA was designed to give the practicioner skills to deal with any/most situtation and possible opponent combination. Granted by that CMA cannot really fully specialise in ALL aspects of fighting.
So one quetion to the ground grappling guys:
How good is your skill set to deal wtih one or more standing Opponents while you are grounded.

Water Dragon

03-17-2002, 07:48 PM

Peter,
The thing is, BJJ is not all about the ground all the time. My teacher is the head bouncer of a club called Circus in Chicago. He had a confrontationa couple weeks ago in which he carried the guy outside by snapping on a rear naked and "walking" the guy outside with his hips. Outside, the confrontation escalated and my teacher smashed the guys nose with his knee a la Muay Thai.

The ground is emphasised because it does make sense a lot of the time. Also, since no one else is really doing the ground game, it tends to stick out a lot more. i.e. it's not emphasised as much as most people think. I'd say about 75 % of our stuff is ground based. The other 25 % deals with stand up.

In my situation, I use the ground portion as an adjunt to my CMA. If given a chance, I'm gonna throw you down a la Shuai Chiao and try to get enough impact in the throw so that you can't/don't want to get up.

What I like is that the BJJ gives me enough confidence on the ground so that I'm not afraid to go there. This makes me go after my Shuai Chiao throws woth more gusto as I know if I screw up, I have options. The result is a higher % of my attempts result in completed throws.

The other side of the coin is this: I can always screw up and fall down when initiating a throw. I can also be thrown. In either case, the BJJ gives me a way to either finish the confrontation while I'm down, or get back up quicker.

BJJ also tends to keep you in touch with the MMA crowd. This means, on any give day, I have the chance to play with Boxers, Muay Thai Fighters, Wrestlers, and Judoka. It gives me more arts to try my Shuai Chiao on. It's also gotten my defense (Taiji Tui Shou) to the point where I'm hardly taken down anymore and rarely get caught with a power shot.

Probably the best reason to develop a little ground game is this: There's a thread on another board where a guy talks about how exhausting stand up is. Why? He hasn't learned to move efficiently standing up. He spends his time on the ground where you need to move in a totally different manner. Just figuring out how to move down there will give you the tactile ability to defend yourself if you find yourself there. Either by choice or necesity.

Water Dragon

03-17-2002, 07:51 PM

Ooops, to answer your question, you DON'T try to deal with more than one gu on the ground. That's what Gong Fu is for. Just remember, you need to be able to take out one guy before you can take out two, and that's a lot harder than most people care to admit to themselves.

Archangel

03-17-2002, 07:58 PM

redfists,

If there is more than 1 opponent, I will do everything in my power to keep it standing. I don't think any of the BJJ practioners on this forum would advocate going to the ground against multiples; THAT IS WHY I CROSSTRAIN. We crosstrain in wrestling to give us the tools neccessary to defend a possible takedown and then crosstrain in striking to round things out. I know that grappling cannot possibly give you all of the answers, no single art can.

I want to turn this question around though.

How would you deal with multiple grapplers if you cant even stop one.

red_fists

03-17-2002, 08:09 PM

Hi Archangel.

Ok, I haven't been up against multiple grapplers.

Actually the Guys I fought in various Pubs and street alleys never tried a takedown on me, nor did they seem inclined to want to take the fight there.

So up to now my MA skills been sufficient without the need of ground grappling skills.

How would I handle the situtation I guess the same way that I handle it now do everything possible to prevent me from going down.

Archangel

03-17-2002, 09:03 PM

Can you explain to mean what you mean by everything possible? What if your defensive techniques don't work and the grappler has you on the ground, what do you do?

red_fists

03-17-2002, 09:14 PM

Hi Archangel.

I was taught to always evade/neutralise the incoming attack.

"Deflect incoming force into nothingness"

Which was taught in most of the MA styles that I have had the pleasure to
study.

If I get taken down I will use my current repertoire of ground fighting skill.
Which include some strikes, gauges, kicks and so on pls, I will try to get as fast as possible back on my feet.

But generally I don't play the "What if ... " game.

Here is an example:
If I get pulled forward I let him pull me, but turn the pull into a forward roll or similar for me.

Trying to overcome his force with my own normally will cause me to loose.
When I said I have no ground grappling skill I did not mean that I have no ground fighting skills. Those are 2 seperate things for me.

Polaris

03-17-2002, 09:17 PM

This is an old and tired argument. Personally I feel that every martial artist, who has the opporitunity, should do atleast six months of BJJ or similiar style. You can improve your ground skills greatly in that amount of time. It's not necessary to get a black belt in or dedicate your life to it to achieve a substantial amount of skill. For this reason alone I don't see why so many of you are so adamantly against it.

You can talk and theorize all you want, but you will achieve nothing that way. Unless you actually get out there on the mat you will have no idea where you stand. Is ignorance truly bliss? I guess that is up to the individual to decide.

Of those who claiming that you will be able to use what is primairly a stand up style on the ground, how much time do you actually train in that venue? While my previous training in Wing
Chun has definetly helped me with BJJ, but that doesn't mean it would be a good idea to rely solely upon it for ground fighting. Though I do believe that it is probably possible for one to reach a skill level (atleast in some styles) where there is no need for BJJ,
wrestling, etc. However, how many actually reach that level?

red_fists

03-17-2002, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by Polaris
Though I do believe that it is probably possible for one to reach a skill level (atleast in some styles) where there is no need for BJJ,
wrestling, etc. However, how many actually reach that level?

Now here I can give you the old counter
argument.

"Of course you won't reach that high a level if you look for the answers somewhere else and study multiple MA."

But as you said to each his own.

Personally, I still believe that each system has all the answers within itself, but it is up to the Student to find them, not up to the teacher to make sure the student gets them all.
Yep, I studied multiple Ma, but than I have lived in quiet a variety of places during my MA studies and had to take what was available or seemed to suit me at that time.

Archangel

03-17-2002, 09:30 PM

"I was taught to always evade/neutralise the incoming attack.
-Deflect incoming force into nothingness-"

This is interesting, it sounds great in theory but I have rarely seen this concept pulled off. It's simple physics really, action beats reaction; have you ever had a good wrestler shoot a clean double leg on you. If you haven't you'll find out that it's not so easy to evade and neutralise. By the way can you explain to me how you would deflect a wrestlers shoot into nothingness.

"If I get taken down I will use my current repertoire of ground fighting skill. Which include some strikes, gauges, kicks and so on pls, I will try to get as fast as possible back on my feet."

How do you know this will work? Have you gauged your training partners, or punched them in the throat. What is your training regiment for getting back to your feet.

red_fists

03-17-2002, 09:49 PM

This is interesting, it sounds great in theory but I have rarely seen this concept pulled off. It's simple physics really, action beats reaction; have you ever had a good wrestler shoot a clean double leg on you. If you haven't you'll find out that it's not so easy to evade and neutralise. By the way can you explain to me how you would deflect a wrestlers shoot into nothingness.

As I have said, I have met very few good skilled MA or Wrestlers in real street fights.

I do NOT fight competitions or similar.
UFC, PRIDE, K1 and so on are NOT why I study MA and I don't measure/adjust my skills according to them, but rather use what has worked for me in REAL life fights.

Like I said the "What if ..." game does not work for me.

BTW, I have sparred on the ground in the styles I studied.

How do you know this will work? Have you gauged your training partners, or punched them in the throat. What is your training regiment for getting back to your feet.

Training and ring sparring/fighting will only give you an idea of what goes on in a real fight.

Doing a sliding sweep or a takedown on a mat feels VERY different to doing it on concrete.

Nuff' said.

Shooter

03-17-2002, 10:02 PM

Martial art is like wisdom - The quality that keeps you out of situations where you need it.

Yung Apprentice

03-18-2002, 04:59 AM

How would I deal with multiple grapplers? Well I always have my buddies Smith and Wesson by my side!:D But thats a scary thought, a group of crazed BJJ practioners. OOOO, an interesting thought. WHat would you (Archangel) or any other grappler do against multiple grapplers? Or a pure grappler against multiple strikers. Probably run like he!l. I would.

Yung Apprentice

03-18-2002, 05:13 AM

Come to think of it though, that was an unfair question you asked. Red Fist stated how he could see the practicality of BJJ in a one on one fight, but not against multiple ATTACKERS. You went on to say how would he do against multiple grapplers. HUH? By saying attackers, I'm sure it's safe to assume we mean regular joe b!ow with little or no training. By mutliple grapplers I assume you mean someone who is trained or has been trained in grappling. A seasoned fighter. What chance does anyone have against multiple seasoned fighters, wether it be grapplers or strikers?

Yung Apprentice

03-18-2002, 05:23 AM

Waterdragon- does your BJJ incorporate some standing techs. Because from what I have seen of pure BJJ, they had no standing strikes, or grappling, other than takedowns. Now many BJJ schools (from what I have seen) incorporates some standing MAs in their BJJ. i.e Mui Thai,JKD,Boxing,Judo. But does pure BJJ have standing techs?

Water Dragon

03-18-2002, 07:30 AM

Yung,
BJJ does have standing techs, but I don't place too much stock in them. Yeah, they're OK if that's all you have, but there are better answers to the stand up question than BJJ offers.

LEGEND

03-18-2002, 07:35 AM

Well I have seen the ROYCE GRACIE video tapes and they do teach standing rear naked chokes and how to trap a guy against a wall using upper body clinches...but in most skools it's alwayz taught that ground fighting is the way to go. Simply tackle your opponent and work from there.

Archangel

03-18-2002, 08:42 AM

"As I have said, I have met very few good skilled MA or Wrestlers in real street fights."

well this isn't the "what if" game anymore, you've had real experience against a wrestler. How did you neutralise his takedown into nothingness?

"I do NOT fight competitions or similar. UFC, PRIDE, K1 and so on are NOT why I study MA and I don't measure/adjust my skills according to them, but rather use what has worked for me in REAL life fights."

I've heard this argument time and time again and I just can't understand it. A good punch is a good punch and a good takedown is a good takedown; whether it's in a MMA arena or the street. Sure the techniques have to be modified, but the fundamentals should stay the same.

"Training and ring sparring/fighting will only give you an idea of what goes on in a real fight.

Doing a sliding sweep or a takedown on a mat feels VERY different to doing it on concrete.

Nuff' said."

I completely agree; you still have not however told me how you train for the ground. I really am interested

Archangel

03-18-2002, 08:50 AM

I think that was a very fair question I asked. So many martial artists never train for worst case scenarios. They train against a big looping haymaker but never against a short boxers hook. They train against a drunken takedown but never against a good wrestlers double. If you can handle the worst case scenario then the untrained attack will be alot easier. It doesn't work the other way around though.

Now what would I do against multiple grapplers? Well first I'd try to run, if that wasn't an option, look for a weapon, if there was none... well then I'm in big trouble. I would try and keep the fight standing; strike hard, defend the takedown and disengage any grappling quickly.

Rolling Elbow

03-18-2002, 09:15 AM

Grogan,

20 hours of ground fighting is still 20 hours in which something like 3 simple principles can be drilled over and over so that they become instinct in a real situation. One foot high and one low for example, relaxation, sensitivity, striking and smothering etc... 1000 hours of stand up fighting will prepare you for standing only. 20 hours of ground fighting will FORCE you to realize that fighting CAN go to the ground and that not all stand up techniques will ALWAYS work.

Examples?

When someone manages to put a full nelson or bear hug COMPLETELY on you because you were too busy to notice him while fighting 7 other guys in true kung fu fashion. You may have to collapse onto the ground with him to get free.

College wrestler takes you out because "Monkey stealing peach from tree" wasn't as quick as 4 years of collegiate wrestling that included training under intense circumstances for power and speed.

Success 100% of the time? Nope. You don't need to learn BJJ..most of the locks are a waste of time...but you do need to understand positioning, leverage, relaxation, flow, and constant movement in order to be "complete". If these are not practiced on the ground, how are you supposed to account for any knowledge of it when it occurs?

bamboo_ leaf

03-18-2002, 09:26 AM

“This is interesting, it sounds great in theory but I have rarely seen this concept pulled off. It's simple physics really, action beats reaction; have you ever had a good wrestler shoot a clean double leg on you. If you haven't you'll find out that it's not so easy to evade and neutralize. By the way can you explain to me how you would deflect a wrestlers shoot into nothingness”

So you haven’t seen it there for it can’t be done? Kinda sounds like they can’t take me down that many say.

No it’s not quite simple physics, if it was simple physics then many things would tend to work the same way and we wouldn’t be talking about the differences. The differences in what Red Fist, was saying has to do with leading the mind, independent of any style or tech “ala shooter TC”

Any art should teach a person to be free and adaptive, an example: In Korea they have what is called Serum, a kind of wrestling that looks like Sumo only Korean style.

The leaf was playing praying mantis at the time. (many yrs ago) 2 Korean soldiers where playing Serum ( get in circle grab the other guy and throw him out) . The leaf in the USArmy at the time.
Anyway after 2 of my troops had tried and where thrown out they called me knowing that I did CMA.

I applied my art against this and was able to throw the other 2 out of 4 times.Using Serum rules, my point is that any art should work and be adaptive allowing the free use of the mind and body in accordance with it’s ideas and principles.

When I spoke with my teacher later about it, he laughed and said I should have used this (some thing out of his style) it would have worked better. He didn’t say hey your right you need to learn this in order to deal with it.

I never read here that some one should study long arm (white crane) to know how to deal with it. Would you ? Or maybe southern mantis learning how to deal with the phoenix eye fist.

The standard reply for many is “well if there so good why don’t they compete in one of these events”

Keep fooling your self, there are many things out of the ring that will hurt you should you met up with it.

Polaris

03-18-2002, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Rolling Elbow

Success 100% of the time? Nope. You don't need to learn BJJ..most of the locks are a waste of time...but you do need to understand positioning, leverage, relaxation, flow, and constant movement in order to be "complete". If these are not practiced on the ground, how are you supposed to account for any knowledge of it when it occurs?

I agree completely. Many people seem to be overlooking the
fact that positioning is the most important factor on the ground.
If one can't achieve and/or maintain superior positioning there then everything else will be of little use. Though I still feel that
it is definetly beneficial to have exposure to submissions so that
you can better defend against them. Otherwise someone could
be setting you up for something and you might be totally unaware
of it.

Now I'll give an example:
Say you are on your back and your opponent has you mounted
or knee to the stomach. Now your trying to punch, gouge, whatever. Your opponent goes for an armbar. 2 scenarios:
1. You don't have any submission/ground knowledge you
didn't realize what he was doing until it was too late. Ouch, that
didn't feel good.

2. You have submission/ground training and awareness. You know what he is going for, as a result you act quickly and are able to prevent your arm from being extended. You then roll into
and stack him. Now YOU have the superior position and can do
a number of things. (Don't let him hook a leg).

Why are some of you so unwilling to even spend even a mere six months studying BJJ or the like?

yenhoi

03-18-2002, 12:22 PM

I dont think BJJ and 'groundfighting' should be used interchangeably.

TO be a 'good all-around' fighter, then that person needs to have knowledge of fighting.

That doesn’t mean you must TRAIN thai so that you can FIGHT standing or that you must TRAIN bjj so that you can FIGHT on the ground.

You must TRAIN. And you must study the different factors that will affect fighting when the time comes. Such as being on the ground, or fighting in a confined area, such as a corridor or a ****pit, or standing in a four cornered ring with ropes to mark the boundaries of the fight.

BJJ is a style/system of fighting.

If you end up fighting on the street, then most likely the encounter is just as much a surprise to your opponent as it is to you. Otherwise he is the predator and you are the prey and the odds are already stacked in his favor. Invest in loss and fight.

A trained fighter vs an untrained fighter already has an inherent advantage, whether or not the trained fighter trains x hours standing and y hours on the ground, and z hours with a double ringed hooked aluminum sword. That inherent advantage is very very small: fights are violent, chaotic and never predictable.

shinbushi

03-18-2002, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Archangel
I think that was a very fair question I asked. So many martial artists never train for worst case scenarios. They train against a big looping haymaker but never against a short boxers hook. They train against a drunken takedown but never against a good wrestlers double. If you can handle the worst case scenario then the untrained attack will be alot easier. It doesn't work the other way around though.
I think it comes from not having good boxers or wrestlers in the training hall. So most don't know the difference.

Shooter

03-18-2002, 02:29 PM

Ground engagement and disengagement is based on transitions and windows of escape/opportunities, and having good navigational skills while enroute to and from the ground. I just call it "filling the gaps." FTG is predicated from one's sensitivity and operable base for good tactical movement. "If the opponent doesn't move...."

How many of the grapplers here have trained outside in the elements? What about scenario training? - Rage attacks, duels, random violent attacks, the opponent draws a weapon after you've clinched or tied up, etc?

How have the differing terrains and environs altered your dynamic?

It'd be interesting to read of your experiences in those settings.

If you only had any idea exactly what it is that joins my disciplines together.

Water Dragon, what is it that joins your disciplines together?

Don't sweat it. I'm just having fun with your disregard for the truth as it stares you in the face. :)

Water Dragon

03-18-2002, 02:59 PM

I practice Shuai Chiao as they have hundreds of years worth of experience in finding the most efficient way to make someone fall down really hard.

I practice BJJ as they have had close to a hundred years experience in finding the most efficient way to move on the ground.

I practice Taiji Tui Shou as it is, in my experience, the best method for linking fighting concepts and techniques together as well as the most efficient method to NOT get you azz handed to you by an aggresor of an unknown disciplene.

It's not that the answers can't be found in Taiji, but if other arts have already put in the work, why should I go back to the drawing board and try to create something from scratch?

Polaris

03-18-2002, 03:05 PM

AmerROSS

03-18-2002, 03:18 PM

"Ground engagement and disengagement is based on transitions and windows of escape/opportunities, and having good navigational skills while enroute to and from the ground. "

Great terminology, Bruce. Where'd you here that? :)

red_fists

03-18-2002, 05:14 PM

Archangel.

One of the reason why we there is so much argument is because a lot of styles are very different in outlook, philosophy and power generation.

I find that most of the BJJ & MMA Guys try to go the western science route.
Everything explained, mix and match, highest possible sucess rate, etc.
Which suits the UFC & Pride Competition thinking.

In my TCC and a few styles that I did we learned that the best defense against any attack is not being there when/where the attack lands. Now this takes a lot of skill and plenty of training to develop.
But you cannot apply this with your "action over reaction" phrase, as avoidance always relies on the opponen moving first.
Ex.:
I see an incoming hand as an incoming force that needs to be deflected, regardless of the hand wants to strike, push, pull or grab me.

As for avoiding leg sweeps, I found that jumps tend to do the trick. Same for long weapon attacks to the legs.
Another reason why I wonder about the usefullness of a lot of styles in real fights is that they often specialise on techniques that become difficult to execute in a non-controlled environment , like a crowded Pub, with plenty of furniture, People and maybe a wet an slippery floor.
Once one of my friends got attacked by a JJ guy, like all real fights have seen the fight was over in under 20 seconds, simply because while he was pinned his GF put her Gun against the attackers head and told him to lay off.

Real fights are way too unreliable to use specialised techniques like BJJ and some other styles. You need to be free to move and adapt to a changing situation very quicly and I feel that you cannot do that while you do ground grappling & ground wrestling.

Yes, there are complex skills and techniques but I found that simple works best in a real life situation.

That is why I like styles that are more principle based rather than technqiues based ones, as I feel I got more freedom/flexibility to apply them to any situation that arises.

fightfan

03-18-2002, 06:03 PM

lol @ this thread!

Shooter

03-18-2002, 06:13 PM

Great terminology, Bruce. Where'd you here that?

AmerRoss, I've been stressing transitions and windows of opportunity for years. :)

Navigational skill while in flight, and back to the feet is termed in my "Tai Chi For MMA" curriculum from '97.

Where'd you hear that? :)

Shooter

03-18-2002, 06:19 PM

why should I go back to the drawing board and try to create something from scratch?

Water Dragon, because you can.

How many Tai Chi schools are fielding MMA fighters?

AmerROSS

03-18-2002, 06:20 PM

Bruce, GROUND ENGAGEMENT and GROUND DISENGAGEMENT, Mat Navigation. Terms that I learned in Russia in 96 with the Russian Special Forces, and Russian Sambo Coaches (and hence the release of my video of the same name.)
:cool:
Earlier you posted that you don't own any instructional videos, so I decided to poke fun.
frat.,
s

Yung Apprentice

03-18-2002, 06:26 PM

DAM YOU.

for making a good point.:D

red_fists

03-18-2002, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by Water Dragon
It's not that the answers can't be found in Taiji, but if other arts have already put in the work, why should I go back to the drawing board and try to create something from scratch?

I have some reasons why I would consider it worthwhile:
1.) To see how good my understanding of TCC is.
2.) For the sake of it.
3.) Just to see if I can come close to what others have already discovered.
4.) Because I like to discover things myself, rather than getting a ready made product.
5.) Because everybody is different and MA is a way of discovering oneself, and how the technqiues best work for you.

Sorry, personally, I feel that the notion of not discovering for one self is one of the reasons for arts getting watered down and McKwoons.

Any good MA should be able to exceed his Master's skill given time and preferably make a valuablecontribution to the Art/Style.
The Wheel has been around for a long time, but we still come up with ways of improving it.

Shooter

03-18-2002, 06:34 PM

Oh, it's you, Scott. :cool:

Earlier you posted that you don't own any instructional videos, so I decided to poke fun.

I don't get it. I don't own any instructional videos.

Anyway, we've discussed the terminology thing to great length in the past. You can't own words.

Nothing new under the sun.

AmerROSS

03-18-2002, 06:40 PM

double post

Sorry!

AmerROSS

03-18-2002, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by Shooter
Oh, it's you, Scott. :cool:

I don't get it. I don't own any instructional videos.

Anyway, we've discussed the terminology thing to great length in the past. You can't own words.

Nothing new under the sun.

You're right we have. So you didn't hear the "Ground (Dis)engagement from my works? :)

There's plenty new under the sun. That's what innovation is, right? Otherwise, how could you have applied your TC to MMA and groundfighting since you were never taught it directly? :)

Shooter

03-18-2002, 06:45 PM

Scott, I can't recall where exacly I first saw, or heard the term. Disengage the clutch. Reengage the overdrive. I got engaged in '83. :p Honestly, I can't say for sure.

Innovation is just rediscovery with a personal twist. Wouldn't you agree? :)

Would you also agree that when we first became aware of each others' e-presence, there was a notable and uncanny similarity in our choice of words and style in how we communicate ideas?

also...this is starting to drift off topic again.

AmerROSS

03-18-2002, 07:09 PM

Actually, that was your first beef with me. :) It's a shame you can't remember hearing the term GROUND ENGAGEMENT in reference to martial arts, since as far as I've been in martial art, and on the internet, you're the only person outside of ROSS that has ever made such a reference (considering this is the name of a segment of our training, and the name of one of my videos.)

I wasn't at all aware of you or how you wrote until you appeared at my Q&A, but you came to me saying that I cannot state my system is new, when that's precisely what you've stated in your post:

"Innovation is just rediscovery with a personal twist" - The Russians call this Renovation.

There are major improvements on technical applications to the current era.

In my opinion, EVERYTHING is new under the sun, which is based upon my belief that everything one does is for the first time... the only beginner's mind.

Every new era, new event, new moment demands Renovation of Perennial wisdom. Regurgitation of yesteryear's applications is only re-creation.

Actually this is EXACTLY the heart OF this thread, IMO.

Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon

Shooter

03-18-2002, 07:37 PM

OK...first thing first;
You can't own words. Synchronicity isn't a rare thing. It happens all the time within the MAs community. Bas Rutten has an article in the most recent Grappling mag where he shows what we've called a "body-in-cradle" or just "tha badger" for several years. I'd never seen it anywhere else before.

Secondly;
The first time I'd ever been addressed by you was on mma.com's main board where I quoted something you wrote (I do cite sources), and you liked what I wrote as supporting your point, and vowed to always strive for "Just Good Physics" You then invited me to your Q&A board, which was previous to my ever posting there. Maybe you remember that.

Thirdly;
Everything is new relative to the person experiencing it, but not in precedence to what others have experienced. Really though, it's just semantics and opinions. No reason to get all possesive.

You're right though....you've spun this back on-topic :)

AmerROSS

03-18-2002, 07:51 PM

Bruce boy, don't get your feathers in a ruffle. :)
I don't want to own any words. Just like to know when terms are being used because of my influence or in spite of it. If you didn't hear it from me, more power to the person from whom you learned it.
Terminology is the thick of it - terms can be liberating or enslaving.
A student begins thinking of a punch and having a clear idea of a punch. Through training, the punch is deconstructed and reassembled with refinement and sophistication. After immersion in environments against fully aggressive and resistant opponents, the punch becomes just again... a punch.
There are ways to hasten this process, not because there are better ways ABSOLUTELY, but because there has been in recent times better understanding about human behavior and human learning for the current civilization. You opined that martial art is like wisdom in that it is, "the quality that keeps you out of situations where you need it." New times, new situations require a RENOVATED application of that wisdom.
Learning someone else's choices does not directly lend wisdom, only knowledge. Understanding how to make one's own choices prudently and judiciously is. To that one must intuit and apply the decisionary process of past performance successes.
Renovating terminology, applying principles to the current "battlefield" is that very method.
I'm glad to see someone like you in the TC community applying your principles and concepts to MMA. I support your efforts at creating new applications of old wisdom.
Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon