relative merits

[wangsizhong]

from reading some of the posts in this forum (especially jon's bagua stuff and painful lessons) i've been more interested in the internal arts. there arent any taiji schools/teachers here in lhasa that i can find so i got some vcds in chinese that i cant understand very well. but i'm not familiar with the styles
anyone know the relative merits of:
88 style
48 style
24 style
42 style
they came in a box set so i really didnt have much choice in styles.
i was looking for the more common chen, yang, and sun styles but couldnt find a complete set of either of those systems.
the sales lady claimed it was all chen style but i don't think thats accurate.
i also got a sword form, and some push hands stuff in the box.
should i start with the longest form and go from there or ease into it with the shortest form?
any suggestions?
-wang si zhong

[taijiquan_student]

88, 48, 24, 42 styles--This sounds like the PRC government wushu taichi. Personally, I wouldn't bother with it. But, if their are no teachers where you live and this is the only thing you can get, and you feel you can learn from the VCD without hurting yourself, maybe you could get some basics down, and find a teacher later to teach you more in depth.

[Nexus]

If you are looking for an internal foundation, I would highly recommend learning just the basics of standing meditation and standing post movements. If you can learn even one well structure chi kung standing meditation pattern you will be on the road to a powerful foundation in your future development in the internal arts. The forms such as 24-movement, 108 movement long form, chen style, all of them are worthless and useless without a foundation of tai chi principles. Many of the tai chi principles are afforded to a practioner of standing meditation and in such a situation you will learn to breathe properly, learn rooting, balance and cultivate a fair degree of health.

Every task, no matter how great needs a starting point.

- Nexus

[bamboo_ leaf]

“The forms such as 24-movement, 108 movement long form, chen style, all of them are worthless and useless without a foundation of tai chi principles”

ha ha, very good ;)

[jon]

"from reading some of the posts in this forum (especially jon's bagua stuff and painful lessons) i've been more interested in the internal arts."
* YAY!!!
After all this time ive finaly accomplished one of my goals on these boards of getting someone interested in one of the arts i study. All i had to do was get struck hard in the side with a thunder palm!
hehe

As stated the forms you mention sound like the modern interpretations of Tai Chi.
I would personaly look out for someone who learned either pre 50s themselfs or had a teacher who learnt the system pre 50s.
Try and avoid the modern stuff its mainly for health, which is not such a bad thing it just depends on your reason for study.

Try just scotting out your local parks early in the mourning, you may find yourself ammazed at what you find:)

[GLW]

88 style
48 style
24 style
42 style

Starting with the oldest first....

24 Posture was created in 1955 or 1956. It is also known as Simplified or Orthodox Taijiquan. It is based in large part on Yang style but has several differences.

First is the rock step, the wave hands is simpler, the White Crane is easier and so on.

It is a good form to learn basic Taijiquan concepts but not a stopping point.

Next came 48 Posture. It is a combined routine using 24 as a starting point. It has elements of Yang, Chen, Sun, and Wu styles in it. All in all, it is one of the better put together routines. Interesting and still containing the martial spirit.

Shortly after this, I believe it was Li Tianjie who did it...but the 88 posture was created. It is probably the worst of the routines you listed. It is not so much that it is bad but that it is so close to a complete copy of traditional Yang Style (sometimes counted as 85 Posture) that the differences look like mistakes. In a very real sense it is guilty of major plagirism.

the most recent of them all is 42 Posture (there is a companion 42 Poture Taiji sword). These two routines are the international competition routines. 42 has a lot in common with 48 but does nt have the grace that 48 does. It is an OK routine (Although 42 Taijijian is actually a very well constructed sword set.)

Many people claim to do Yang style when in reality they are doing 24.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“I would personaly look out for someone who learned either pre 50s themselfs or had a teacher who learnt the system pre 50s.
Try and avoid the modern stuff its mainly for health, which is not such a bad thing it just depends on your reason for study”


jon,

if the newer forms are composed of movements from the older ones (yes some may not like the arrangement) how are they only related to health and the older ones are related to what?

Can you or any others qualify this based on your experience not what some others have said. I think it would be interesting and informative. In the interest of sharing views only. ;)

[taijiquan_student]

My only direct experience on this topic is that while my teacher is only in his early forties (american), his teacher is 90 now (from shanxi now in taiwan), so I guess technicaly I am learning a pre-50's system (although i do practice the CMC form as well as the older system).

Not that it makes a huge difference, but some things that are in older systems have been left out of new ones, like the CMC for example. In zheng's style, one of the structural rules as eyes-nose-navel alignment. This helps to keep the bodymore aligned and from twisting the head with force or twisting the shoulders. However, this rule is not in older systems. Why? Because although in roll-back in zheng's form, when you turn to do the deflection your eyes and head follow too--this means your eyes are not watching the duifang (the other party involved). In older systems (pre-50's, pre-gov. wushu, etc.) you always are watching the duifang. Zheng took this out to make it easier to stay aligned and fang song.

Also, in zheng's form the strikes, like the one in brush-knee, come from the shoulder. Your hand never goes above you shoulder for the strike because then there is a greater chance of tension in the shoulder. In the older yang system, the strikes come from the ear, not the shoulder. This gives the strike more power, allowing it more time to pick up speed and crash down on the duifang. But zheng changed this so it would be easier to keep the shoulder relaxed.


The reason the new forms are purely health-motivated even though they are based on the old movements is because of how the government and wushu organizations promoted them, then, and now. The last thing the gov. wanted was that their people knew how to defend themselves, but they were really into the "strong people makes a strong country" movement at the same time, so the arts were purely for "strengthening the people", not fighting. The Chinese government has had lots of trouble from secret societies and revolutionaries (boxer rebellion, taiping rebellion, white lotus sect, and now they're worried about falun gong), so of course they never mentioned the martial aspect. Wushu was a way for them to bring back the "great traditions and arts of china and the chinese people", but without actually doing it (which of course they would never really do).

Sorry, I think I went a little O/T.

[wangsizhong]

thanks for the feedback,
jon i'm right with you on checking the local parks, but the local parks scene in lhasa isn't quite what it is in inland china. even to find a hopgar/lama pai/whatever you wanna call it teacher requires taking a starter course in buddhism that i'm not really interested in--not that anyone would take me on anyway ;)
one of my fellow teachers has a student that apparently is into tai ji, and i'm trying to meet with him, but again, no telling what style he knows, or if he would even be able to teach effectively.
ironically both of my former gong fu teachers taught tai ji (one even specialized in it!), but i wasn't interested in internal stuff at the time. oh well, i'll see what i can do with what i've got...
-Wang Si Zhong

[jon]

bamboo_ leaf
"Can you or any others qualify this based on your experience not what some others have said."
* Sure, im lucky enough to have a teacher who knows both the old and the new so im lucky to have seen whats changed...
For a start everything that taijiquan_student has said is very correct to my knowledge and also matches my sifus information. My sifu was taught by his father and grandfather. His grandfather was taught during the 30s by Yang Chen Fu. His father was a full time teacher, when he taught in the local park in public... Tai Chi is only health and energy NOT fighting...
Behind closed doors in his home! Whole other story;)

Basicaly most of the movements in Modern Yang are MUCH larger and have large defensive gaps. The old form has smaller circles and the power generation is MUCH more exact. Every movement most contain figure eights hips and a contracting expanding spine.
The form is also performed differently with much more whipping motion and tighter formation it can also be done faster due to the circles and tighter movements.
Basicaly the old Yang style is fighting in the true sence of the word, its fast fluid and very deadly, breaking the oppents structure first before basicaly drilling them into the ground or blasting them. The new yang is a way of creating a hefty push. It largens all of the circles which loses the old power generation and forces the student to generate with single hip actions and much less spinal movement.
Ive seen segments picked appart and see exact differences to application and again they are large.
In the old form the mind was to absorb then stick to the opponent before basicaly whipping into them. The new mind is more about redirection and pushing.

Good quote from my sifu...
Old style mind, every move the fighting
New mind, health maybe push you away.

Said in that exact way :)

I didnt mean to come accross as purist or anything else and hope i havent sounded that way. Just there is a HUGE difference between modern and old Tai Chi. Dont get me started on the weapons, i wanted to cry when i saw what had changed in Bagua sword ruitines.
Only my sigung knew the full level of that and he has been dead for comming on 40 years :( After my sifu saw the difference he trashed his Bagua sword ruitine and went back to his Tai Gik one.
It was either that or spend another 20 years in training...

wangsizhong
* Dont be scared of learning a 'little' religion in your quest, when i took up the internals one of the first things i did was to start studying Taoist theory. I still dont act like a Taoist and i dont fully understand the mind but it IS part and parcel of the system.
All the best in your search anyway :)

[wangsizhong]

jon,

"Dont be scared of learning a 'little' religion in your quest, when i took up the internals one of the first things i did was to start studying Taoist theory."

if it were Taoist theory, I wouldn't have much of an issue with it.
i am familiar enough with Taoist theory to have my own opinions on it (good and bad)

i was talking about tibetan buddhist theory, which is a whole different level. my friend was saying the lamas won't train you in their "kungfu" (apparently its not quite the same as kungfu) unless you progress through certain levels of mystical understanding. according to my friend, if you don't understand the basic stuff, you could actually go crazyin later levels! whether he was right or not, my point is i don't feel like taking up all of my time with this mystical stuff that i'm completely unfamiliar with so that months later i might get to learn a particular style. i sound like every impatient student in every bad martial arts flick, but like i said in my last post i'm just not interested in that style.
i'd rather get into the taiji. after all, thats what this forum is all about right?

then again, i don't want to waste my time in a watered down system either. i'll let you know if anything good comes of all of this....

take care,
-Wang Si Zhong

[bamboo_ leaf]

Jon, TC student,


Most of what I read is things that your teachers have said, not much on your feelings about this. Was just wondering what you thought through direct experience as in what you thought about playing the new styles compared to the older ones?


“then again, i don't want to waste my time in a watered down system either. i'll let you know if anything good comes of all of this...”.


you mean like the chen style where they teach a softer form first then move on to cannon fist, you would just want to start out at cannon fist ?

lets see if I understand this. You don’t want to learn something that has less movements and a different arrangement but is based on the same movements and principles as the older systems from which it is composed?

I would look for a good teacher who really knew IMA, then it wouldn’t really matter what he was teaching.
;)

[wangsizhong]

bamboo_leaf:

"lets see if I understand this. You don’t want to learn something that has less movements and a different arrangement but is based on the same movements and principles as the older systems from which it is composed? "

from what i understood in previous posts, much of the newer adaptions like the ones in my vcds (24 posture, etc.) aren't really in keeping with the original idea of taiji.
i don't mind starting at the beginning, but i just don't want to spend time on something that claims to be what it isn't. like if some mcdojo was pawning off karate as kung fu.

to use your phraseology, no, i don't want to learn something that has less movements and a different arrangement IF the movements that are missing are important, or IF the different arrangement takes away from the usefulness of the original arrangement.

that's kind of why i posted the question in the first place.
i'm just trying to make an informed decision.

-Wang Si Zhong

[GLW]

"much of the newer adaptions like the ones in my vcds (24 posture, etc.) aren't really in keeping with the original idea of taiji. "


Take what was said by many with a grain of salt. Those who siad this admitted to having never DONE things like 24. 24 Posture was designed to be a beginning level routine. It can be used to elarn basic movement, balance, stance work, body connection. ...In short, all of those things that take a good while to get a handle on with more difficult routines....hence the idea. It can also be done by people who ONLY want to learn a health routine.

But, as a start, it lays a foundation that is workable. I personally prefer to teach that one before I teach taditional Yang style. I can build the basics and concepts in with simpler movements. For example...from the beginning of the Yang form, you do a Grasp sparrow's tail...then circle and change direction to do single whip. In that routine, you do NOT touch the foot to before you move to single whip (Ding Bu - brining of the left toe to touch by the right foot when you do the hooking right hand). This seems simple...no touching....but beginners have a hard time with it. After a few months of practice, I just have to say "Don't touch" asoppposed to explaining how to dynamically make sure you have balance...and the leg strength is already there.

Similarly, if you are not sure which style of Taijiquan you wish to learn...24 for basics and balance, then 48 for an exposure to different styles is NOT a bad thing. If you find that you like the Sun style parts, great...go find a Sun style teacher and you have some foundation already...same for Chen. Yang, etc...

The Taijiquan principles are all there...if you are taught correctly...and if you are NOT taught correctly, it is NOt the routine...but the instruction that is faulty.


"i don't mind starting at the beginning, but i just don't want to spend time on something that claims to be what it isn't. like if some mcdojo was pawning off karate as kung fu. "

Now, this can be a problem. Many who teach things like 24 are truly only qualified to do 24...and should not be teaching. Often times they do not even know that there is adifference between 24 and Yang style. In fact, if you go to many competitions and look at the Yang Style division, you have a noticeable percentage doing 24...and they should be disqualified..it is NOT Yang style.

As long as the person teaching knows what they are doing and knows the limits of things like 24, it is fine. The problem is that most do not.


"to use your phraseology, no, i don't want to learn something that has less movements and a different arrangement IF the movements that are missing are important, or IF the different arrangement takes away from the usefulness of the original arrangement."

Depends upon definition of usefulness. You can learn a lot about connection in these routines. For example, the smaller circles, the intimate connection to the center, the use or misuse of the shoulders and elbows, balance, waist work...all make explaining traditional Yang style difficult with a new student. The most common statement I hear from students when I take them to Yang style is concerning the level of detail and the difficulty to feel the body connection - the small circles that connect things...etc.... and this is from people who have an idea. With rank beginners...2 years before they can postulate the question.

[Sam Wiley]

If there are no teachers in your area for the style/s you would like to study, then by all means learn from the vcd's you received. In my opinion, those forms are no good for learning about the Internal, but they are an introduction and something you can base learning the Internal on when you find a teacher who can help you enter that area.

As the old saying goes, "half a loaf is better than none at all." And in the beginning, all styles are external, you must progress into the Internal, so it's not like it'll be too much of a loss.

[jon]

Hi bamboo_ leaf

"Most of what I read is things that your teachers have said, not much on your feelings about this. Was just wondering what you thought through direct experience as in what you thought about playing the new styles compared to the older ones?"
* I actualy tried very hard to give a person reason why i felt that the arts had changed. Im sorry if my post did not hold the information you where after. If im frequently sounding like im quoting my sifu then thats becouse naturaly most of my information will come though him as taught to me.
You can expect my opinions to be the result of what i have learnt im sorry if my refering to my teacher annoys you.
I personaly have only recently started Tai Chi so my opinions on actualy performing it are different to my opinions on having seen it trained. Ive spent a lot of time recently around good Tai Chi and seen many applications and movements. Ive also started work on the old style Yang long form.
I have previously learnt the 24 short from a different teacher.

That said...
To me the differences are as stated in the size of the circles and the complexity inherent in the body mechanics.
The applications are also as ive stated in my previous post different.
My post was the result of what ive practiced and what i believe, i dont hold it to be gospell its just my personal path.
All the best
Jon

[bamboo_ leaf]

Sometimes this is a poor medium for communication especially when ones writing skills are not so good, as mine are not. ;)

My point in all this goes back to what "nexus" said and what some others have said.

I would say the amount and type of movements after the main idea is grasped doesn’t matter as dose style new or old their only vech. to get to some place not the place itself, at lest this is what i have found in my own work.

My own TC is very simple compared to others, I find it has everything that I need, maybe not as obvious as the others but still there.

when one talkes about motives of the masters for doing what they do, i think it's really hard to say as they /where /are masters.
we tend to follow those that agree with some inner part of us.
this is why the teacher is very important in ones training. you seem to have a good one.

luck in training

:)

[bamboo_ leaf]

“I wouldn't even think of using 24 form for combat. It was developed as a band aid for the healthcare crisis in China.”

Then I think you may have missed my point. Look at what you have said “now that I have it” there are some that got it using the only the 24 step. How or what one uses to get “it” IMHO is less important then “it”

People talk of missing peaces, missing what? I f you view this as a vech to teach principles then it only matters on how well you can pick it up.

If you are learning a style form a particular family and this is what you want to learn then we can talk of missing peaces, but I don’t really think this has much to do with getting it.

The simpler styles (less movement) IMHO are very hard to really get "it" with, very condensed. not easy / this is why a teacher is very important to guide show/feel. :)

[boy_analog]

Wangsizhong:

Are you just interested in Taiji, or would you consider one of the other internals? Hebei Xingyi is one of the simplest internals to pick up, and there is a very good book on the topic, namely, Liang Shou Yu's.

Before I found my present teacher, I taught myself the 5 fists just using this book. I didn't acquire any remarkable martial skills during this period, but it was a lot better than nothing. I noticed definite improvements to my health, and laid down a lot of good habits which have served me well in my current training.

It took a lot of patience to get the fists right at first, because you have to look at a book, try something, look again, and so on. So if you have a friend who can read from the book while you train that would be a big help.

Once I got the moves right I didn't train incredibly diligently: about half-an-hour 3 times a week on average. So if you put your mind to it you could probably advance a lot further than I did with this method.

[RAF]

Knowing principles/jings and developing principles/jings are two different issues. The big secrets aren't simply knowing the principles. Seeing them, naming them etc. can be easily taught. The real challenge is developing and embodying the principles. More specifcally, body expression and utlization. There are effective and efficient ways of developing these principles (I include jings or energies as part of the principles). Not all principles/jings develop in the same amounts among practitioners. Bodies and genetic endowments differ substantially. IMHO, that is the so-called secrets that Masters leave out, the means of developing and expressing principles/jings.

If someone has the 24 movement taiji form and the teacher knows not only the principles/jings but effective and efficient ways of developing the principles/jings, then the form is only a vehicle of expression. Doesn't matter if you have 13 or 400 postures/movements, knowing the effective and efficient means of developing these is what will make your art. However, it may be that some combination of postures and movements are more effective and efficient in developing the principles/jings so I am not blowing off forms.

From what I have learned about many of the so-called secrets is that they often involve auxilliary training/exercises, they are not complex, require tons of repetition, require proper alignment, and take time. That's where the element of faith takes place in both teacher, time and method. Also principles/jings are met to be experienced not overly intellectualized. There are many who can talk principles but cannot demonstrate them effectively. In my experience this tends to dominate those who have this obsession to teach after being in a system 4 or 5 years. Ask them why they decided to teach? I have met a few top rated competitors from China, with tons of medals who are teaching simply to stay here. They may be good but you should be aware of their motives for teaching. Its difficult to make a living teaching martial arts in this culture

In the early stages of training, I made the mistake of focusing on results rather than process. If you find a teacher you like, trust and has relatively good credentials (lineage is often a necessary but Not sufficient condition for learning. Your teacher had to learn the principles/jings from someone who knew them and that will eventually be traced to a lineage family/holder. On the other hand, there are lineage holders who won't get off it even with money, time, and effort. More complicated is that some lineages intepret the same principles differently and politics arise).

You might also want to think about keeping it simple, repetitive and enjoyable. You need a social component that fits otherwise over the long run you won't stay. Its important to have fun, too. Genghis Kahn is not coming tomorrow so there is no rush to learn everything and prepare for war.

Happy Trails!:)

[wangsizhong]

boy_analog:

i appreciate your advice on the xingyi, but i'm gonna stick with the taiji because i have the material at hand. i would be interested in bagua zhang because i'm more into the circular stuff than the straight line stuff. of course i'm speaking from instinct, not real knowledge of either system. because i travel around so much, i prefer to start something that i can continue wherever i go, and taiji SEEMS to be more universal than the other IMA.

so my decision right now (if you're interested) is to start with the 24 posture, maybe move to 48 if i manage to finish the 24.
i'm also still trying to see what my friend's student is practicing to get some advice/training from him.
i would love to find a good teacher, but i'm dealing with scarcity and language barriers all the way around. i'll have to wait till i'm back in the west and see if i can get someone to fix any problems/mistakes/bad habits i develop in my self-training over here.

it might not be the best path but its all i've got right now.
feel free to discuss whatever topics this thread has generated, but for now i'm gonna just back off this thread and start practicing.

thanks to all for your opinions, suggestions, criticisms, ideas, and whatever else.

-wang si zhong

[RAF]

I just remembered, many years ago I bought Liang Shou Yu's tape on the 24 movement. Sam Masich is also on the tape. The applications are on the tape and he also has a book which shows proper stances, simple qi-gong exercise, proper alignment of the stances.

That probably wouldn't be a bad place to start. There might even be more books or tapes available by Liang Shou Yu. I never met him but he seems very decent and I think he plays well.

[guohuen]

Bamboo Leaf. Agreed. Just reread your post. I had missed your point. Got it now.