Is WT/WC becoming to intellectuel ?

[jesper]

Lately i have been wondering if WT/WC is becoming to intellectuel for lack of real fight opportunities.
It seems like people start to talk alot about using "advanced technics" in fights like fingerstrikes, joint breaking etc.

Now I have been in a lot of fights, and have done a lot of full contact sparrings both with other WT/WC practicioner and other styles, and it rarely gets beyond using pretty basic technics like front kicks, straight punch and such. of cause your use of these basic technics become more advanced, but to be honest I have never used fingerstrikes and only once a joint breaking technic in a real fight.

I get a little annoyed when people defend not going to UFC or other such matches because of our supposevely deadly technics. Its nothing but excuses, WT/WC fighters used to compete in many fights where deadly technics where outlawed, and quite regulary won these. I belive we still have some practicioners who fight, and do pretty well. Instead tell the truth, that most people who join kung fu classes do it to improve themself, not to boost some ego.
Dont tell a bjj guy you could beat his ass, go show it to him. It doesnt have to be in the ring, you could spar in his or your gym. Or if you dont want to spar him, just tell him out straight that it doesnt interest you.

Another thing which irritates me, is when people talk about using their "deadly technics" in real fight. or worse during training starts making up these technics for dealing with an attack.
When did you last eyegouge a person or break his leg or arm in a fight ?
Spend some more time on your "supposevely" basic technics, they will save your ass in a fight, not "the deadly stuff".

Moreover, on my travels around to other WT/WC schools at home and abroad, I have come acros many instructors who have never used their technics in real combat, and one hadnt even tried sparring.
Now is there something wrong with not fighting or sparring. Of cause not, but how can you honestly look your pupils in the eye and tell him that your WT/WC can save his ass if you havent tested it. How can you state that WT/WC is still an effective style, when you dont try it out against other styles.
I know WSL fought a lot of matches and pretty much beat everybody, but you are not WSL or some other super fighter. You are Dan, Johnny or whatever name you go by, like me just the average guy down the block. If you want to pass on your knowledge, be pretty **** sure you know its for real, dont take other peoples word for it.

I'm afraid that maybe WT/WC is turning into an intellectual style like karate did long ago. Before karate used to be very lively, and effective, but gradually real fighting was abandoned and kata (forms) took over. look at the karate forms now. It is more important to look good than to be effective, and im afraid that WT/WC will head in the same direction. Already we have arguments over which version of SLT is the correct one. People argue whether it should be finished in 20 min or 4 hours.

Come on, wake up and smell the roses people.

[reneritchie]

Hi Jesper,

The best WCK teachers I've ever met stressed and stressed again the basics. And when I was fortunate enough to touch hands with them, time and again they could shut me down with just one or two simple, basic moves. It *really* wakes you up when you're being annihilated by a slow-seeming Tan Da, Jum Da, etc. by a relatively small old(er) man.

(And, FWIW, I've heard the same in other arts. Heck, even in BJJ the stories about Rickson Gracie seem to say the same thing - no cartwheel guard passes or anything fancy, just simple, tight, unstoppable basics).

Rgds,

RR

[mun hung]

Very good post!

Without realistic applications - it becomes Wushu.

There is definitely a problem out there.

[old jong]

To effectively use your Wing Chun (Or any other martial art) one must use a little amount of technique and lots of courage and controled agressivity.
This means basics things you can do without even thinking and the trust in your system.
I think even BJJ is becomming more and more sophisticated as the demand for "advanced" stuff force the teachers into inventing complicated guard passes and counters to counters....They are going through the same things after all!
The key is practicing what works!...Punches,palms,elbows...The knees and kicks must help the hands! You must have a strong stance and face with your weapons.
Forget the fancy stuff.Biu sau is a very good deflecting technique!

[Alpha Dog]

You must also be able to talk/post endlessly about every great master, his lineage, the compleat history of Wing Chun, including Bruce Lee's involvement (and, AND know exactly the difference b/w Wing Chun and Ving Tsun), and be able to correct other's attempts at pronunciation of Chinese words to be able to say you can use WC to defend yourself.

Otherwise, you're just a street-fighting punk. B/c it's not what you can do, it's the talk you talk that makes you a great fighter.

;)

ps -- I suck at both

[old jong]

You know. A good right hand is often enough to win most street fights!...Or,just being strong,fast and agressive!
It is said that Royce Gracie himself was once beaten in a bar fight by a simple guy working as a bricklayer!...It tooks several of his brothers to pull the guy off him,I heard. The guy was strong fast and agressive and he meant business! ;)
Surely not an intellectual guy who thought about the correct placement of the pinky in tan sau!...:D

[jesper]

Your right Old jong.
Most fight I have been in was over in less than 10 sec, from beginning of first punch/kick. Mostly it involved less than 3-4 technics before it was all over.

Another point which people seem to forget is that when your in a potential fight situation, your adrenalin will start pumping. While that is good for you overall, it does have the negative effect that your motorskills goes down the drain (well not all the way). So that fancy move you have been practicing, will be just of the mark, while your elbow to the face, will hurt him regardles where it hit.

[CanadianBadAss]

As long as people like me keep doin Wing Chun u'll never be have to worry about becoming intellectual.

[jesper]

"As long as people like me keep doin Wing Chun u'll never be have to worry about becoming intellectual"

I presume you refere to worry about WT becoming to intellectual ;) or are you going to use your jedi mind trick to keep me from thinking again :D

[Matrix]

I definitely agree with Old Jong. The basics will set you free. Also, your intent must be clear. The bricklayer in the Gracie story "meant business" and this is a key factor in the outcome, IMHO.

If you are tentative, the fight may be over before you've figured out what you want to do. This is where the "Just do it" statement from another thread (I believe it was Roy's comment) comes into play. If you are analyzing the situation, you may be already defeated. That's why we drill and chis sao, so we act instantaneously and instinctively when the time comes.

Jesper's points are also well taken. Adrenalin will have huge impact on your ability to respond. It can even affect your ability to perceive what is actually going on. You can even see it in a tournament-type situation where usually strong players stumble in face of the stress of competition, so it's not hard to imagine that a real-life confrontation will have a similar negative effect. The person who is mentally tougher can often defeat more "skilled" person. I put "skilled" in quotes, because mental strength is a skill in and of itself, but in this case I am making a distinction between physical and mental abilties just for the sake of arguement.

Matrix

[old jong]

I work as some of you know in a psychiatric hospital as an educator and I had many times in my 24 years experience the "Chance" to be "in action"

I have seen patients go over the top in a way you could not believe! these guys will try to bite your face off, rip your eyes,anything. They are not thinking when they act, they just do it! some are so effective that sometimes 4 security guards are needed to secure them!...
My point is: These 4 security guards are thinking about finding a good strategy when they have to secure someone like this and ,it gives some edge to the patient who is reacting more freely.
I have,alone, secured the same patients who gave so much trouble to 4 guys! I believe that my training gives me the skill to "just act" and not be slowed down by doupts or thoughts. I go to the attack at 200% and just take care not to injure the guy!...You can see that as controlled total agression!
What do you think?

[Matrix]

I think your experience speaks for itself. It's a great example of what we are discussing. Thank you for sharing.

Matrix

Mental note:....don't mess with Old Jong ;)

[reneritchie]

OJ - Didn't know your occupation. Hopefully you'll be safe and secure! On the flipside, of course, is around 10 years back or so I used to work out with a lot of bouncer friends (one of my sidai was a bounce). Some did TKD, some Kenpo, some Muay Thai, etc. A couple of interesting things came up. I saw Thai roundkicks to the head (hard ones) shrugged off, likewise with pretty decent boxing hooks (heck, if you saw the last Pride FC, you saw Carlos Newton take Pele's MT knee right to the jaw and keep coming). Some people are just resiliant to impact trauma (not even talking drug abusers here, who can take it to an absurd level). For these types of people, sometimes the simple move won't work and unless you're happy to escalate the level of violence (breaking bones to limit their ability to continue, or causing significant soft tissue trauma if you can accurately do so), more complicated movements (such as kum na joint or breath attacks) might be necessary.

The other side to consider is escaltation on the other party's end (firearms). Two of the bouncers I used to work out with got into a scuffle with a guy one time who said he was coming back. One of them moved. The other is no longer with us.

Sun Zi, rightly I think, said "never underestimate your opponent" and Lao Zi "the greatest catastrophe is underestimating your enemy". To this, I think WCK's great strength of letting us link one move to bring in the next, and to change and adapt to fit the conditions, are true pearls.

AD - Hey, I resemble those remarks (and historically speaking, Bruce Lee (pronounced closer to Lay Seeyu-Long), didn't do all that much Ving Tsun under Yip Man, but did do some more with Wong Shun-Leung and some Wing Chun with William Cheung! ;) )

RR

[yuanfen]

Is WT/WC becoming to intellectuel ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
intellectual, practical, experiental, effectual---
depends on the tea house and who you run into. Dont mistake chit chat for wc.

Reading your post, I fell asleep on the way to smelling the roses
Sorry

[old jong]

I don't want my little story to give the impression that I will charge in like a kamikaze at the first alert!...I prefer to defuse the crisis before it gets to that level. I also prefer to have some help around and play safe. I don't play Superman in any ways but if I'm stuck alone and I have no choice, I don't want to play victim either! ;)

[Rolling_Hand]

Yuanfen sez:
--depends on the house and who you run into.

LOL...you run into Augustine Fong and that might explains your chit chat for WC.

BTW, have you ever finished Yip Man's wooden dummy training?

[Roy D. Anthony]

By the last response, it seems to me that you are contradicting yourself, Sounds to me like you're using strategy, does it not?
And after all you said against strategy in another thread..... I wonder...... LOL.

Contradicting for the sake of cantradicting comes to mind here.....LOL.
I'm joking jong, nice to see you using strategy!!!:)

[yuanfen]

1.Big mistake to run into Augustine Fong-there be monsters there.
2. Chit chat mine. Fong -no chit chat.
Chit chat is KFO/ WC/PC. Reductio ad absurdum.
3. Fong has no reps and folks with good Fong teaching
aint robots.
4. Finished the dummy? Havent finished the slt!!!
Maybe next life? I will return as an un censorable avatar.
5.Et tu?

[old jong]

I do use strategy. I use it before doing something physical. I have to be aware of the surroundings. I have to see if other patients could be hurt or could help the one in crisis. I have to offer him a way out ,a choice to defuse the situation. I have to signal other personnal to call for help or secure the area. But if I have to move,I just act, not react! I take over. As I said before,I just take care about not hurting the guy. But I do it with lots of energy!
BTW, I remember that old post of your's about strategy in chi sau!...My only strategy in chi sau is to have a good stick and strike when I feel it is good to strike.
It is just the way I do it. I respect other's way to practice or understanding these things. I know that you are not an idiot or something!

[Sabu]

What is the key to effective strategy?

[old jong]

O.K., I will take pity! ;)
Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!......Spoken words fly away. Written words stay!...

It makes sense in many ways! ;)

[rogue]

How often do you guys seriously spar or fight? I mean bare knuckle, no pads, controlled but hard hits.


Old Jong, I tip my hat to you once again!

[old jong]

Thanks for your comment!
Well, (I speak for myself!) I don't feel that sparring is reflecting the reality or the true usage of Wing Chun!...Like say if sparring TKD style vs TKD style would reflect a true self-defense or combat situation. In "reality", there is no sparring where you can trade combinations move back and forth,feint,etc. In reality,you will maybe stop an attack and take over (At least do your best!) and go for total destruction and incapacitation of an opponent. You would not stop attacking until he is not moving or submitting. It is hard to train that in friendly sparring even if it is a little rough!
Something I do from time to time is: Going through drills with real intention in the punches. If it is not deflected ,you get it in the chest hard!...It as to be done with ready and willing training partners only! ;)
I prefer not to go that rough in chi sau for now because of the risk of nose and eyes injuries factor.

[rogue]

Whoops I think I didn't finish my thought. The reason I ask is that I've realized that many techniques that sound good when talking about them or work well when wearing gloves and pads, may not work as well against a "live" opponent.

I've worked techniques and combos out that worked well in drills and light sparring but went totally to heck when going against someone going harder.

I've seen two Moy Vat players learn this against a kickboxer, they had little experience with someone who could kick well and used combinations. Things that surprised them(one of them talked about it) were the weight of the leg, the inertia and the forward movement of the kicker and how often their fingers got jammed when we didn't use gloves even during light contact.

The good news is that they adjusted after a couple of sessions, and that's the point. It's good to think about what you're doing but you have to test it under as much stress as possible.
Right now I think that BJJ is the most intellectual art out there, but they test the heck out of every new move that they come up with.

Bad analogy time: It's like the early days of building rockets, the Germans had the concepts, the physics, the theory but the real test came when they finally fired a V-2 up. And as history shows no matter how smart you are things rarely go as well as planned.