New/Old Rear Bear Hug Tech...

[draco]

Are there any techniques in your material that you might share with us in the release of a rear bear hug.

Please discribe a situation and how to get released. Use your imagination.

thanks

[EARTH DRAGON]

In a rear bear hug the most important thing is to be able to breath. If they squeeze to tightly you can loose your breath.
To avoid this simply touch your hands together or get them as close as possible to the dantien. This will automatically bring the arms and the elbows closer to your center and allow you to breath. This is becuse the opponent cannot get the proper hold to constrict the diaphram. This can be done even after they have a hold.

Second is to reach around and grab the testicals. This sounds barbaric but it works. If you grip and twist they will let go.

Thier is not need to be quick in the technique for the simple reason is both thier hands are occupided.

Some times reverse head but will work but only 3 or 4 out 10 times.

Also if you are being picked- up while in a bear hug you can avoid that by wrapping the instep or top of your foot around the back of his calf. This creates leveredge and he will not be able to lift you.

[mantis108]

In 18 Lohan Gong, Road #1, 2, 7, 8 and 17 (7 Star's version) are different ways to deal with the rear bear hugs. There are also techniques to counter takedowns (frontal, rear and lateral.) My view is that the 18 Lohan was developed by monks for both physical exercise and self defense mainly against bullies and muggers. Many of the techniques are elementary self defense. Keeping it simple and effective is key. Hope this help. Tainan Mantis may be of great help here since he's the one who showed me the form. :)

Mantis108

[bungda07]

Mantis108, Can yourself or Tainan Mantis explain more about the martial aspect against bearhug using 18 Lohan road # 1, 2, 7, 8, 17. Just one would help me see this clearer.

I have WHF book on 18 Lohan, Can't translate yet.

Mantis108, Do you have a website?
As always, yourself and Tainan Mantis contribute greatly to the Forum. Thanks.

V/r

Steve M.

[mantis108]

"Mantis108, Can yourself or Tainan Mantis explain more about the martial aspect against bearhug using 18 Lohan road # 1, 2, 7, 8, 17. Just one would help me see this clearer."

Certainly, I will be glad to be of help. :)

Since you have the book, I will use it to reference the moves. Please keep in mind that Tainan Mantis' version is slightly different then WHF's version. But if you put the 2 together, they provide a fasinating amount of details that compliment each other very well. They are turely treasures of PM.

I will take Road #2 for example. BTW, Earth Dragon pointed out the essential details, which are crucial for the success of the move. I will also borrow his words here to help explain #2. I will also use the naming convention and translated text of the book as references. Let's start with the move first and then reference the text with the move. It is also important to remember that the text and the moves (of the book) are not exact match in certain areas; however, it is rather out of topic here. So I won't speculate the reason.

18 Lohan Gong Road #2

The move:

First step:

Attacker will have ED's intension in mind

"In a rear bear hug the most important thing is to be able to breath. If they squeeze to tightly you can loose your breath. "

Defender will assume stance #1 pic#6

This is to create space for you to work with and to avoid being "choke" out of breath. The Namasté hand position provides great leverage for lifting the hug up a bit for you to execute the next move.

ED provided this detail which is great if you are relatively slow in respond to a somewhat secured rear bear hug. Simply go into the Namasté position after what ED suggested.

"To avoid this simply touch your hands together or get them as close as possible to the dantien. This will automatically bring the arms and the elbows closer to your center and allow you to breath. This is becuse the opponent cannot get the proper hold to constrict the diaphram. This can be done even after they have a hold."

Next step:

Perform stance 2 pic#7

This is the move, which ED suggested, and it's the stretch out palms and then to the back and come forward. You need to observe a few things. 1) you namasté stance lifted the hug and give you enough room to do the following step. 2) He will most likely try to avoid you groin strike(s) and try to counter with a takedown or uproot you somehow. You need to work fast. 3) he might even try to force the hug thigh. Anyway if he shift to avoid the groin strike(s). You will carry on with the next steps.

"Second is to reach around and grab the testicals. This sounds barbaric but it works. If you grip and twist they will let go."

[Thier is not need to be quick in the technique for the simple reason is both thier hands are occupided. ]

this detail doesn't apply here. You need to work fast in this situation for taking him down. Remeber your counter is to do a takedown on him.

[Some times reverse head but will work but only 3 or 4 out 10 times.]

This detail will help distract him but this is not required for Road #2

Next step:

Stance 3 pic #8, 9

As ED suggested the following detail which is useful:

"Also if you are being picked- up while in a bear hug you can avoid that by wrapping the instep or top of your foot around the back of his calf. This creates leveredge and he will not be able to lift you."

Your horse stance now shifted to the back of his calf since he moved to avoid your groin strike(s). The hand position in the book is not very clear but it provide an idea of how your hands would position during the takedown counter. especially pic #9. You will be somewhat holding his forearm for leverage and prevent him to escape the throw.

Second Road Text (translation)

Title:Warlord clear and press cauldron

Text:

Seperate hands and push at chest
Eagle's wings open wide and empty
Close the anus so that Water and fire come together
Two ears (handle) hang red cicada
Up and down relied on the strength of the kidneies
Bend the waist lower the knees feet become light
Practicing Gong quite need to learn the secrets (details)
Always keep the awareness.

Stance 1
Both hands part water two legs use strength

Stance 2
Double punch seperate crotch and move the staddle ride the horse

Stance 3
Great eagle open wing with full body power

Stance 4
Clear and press tons lift club ride the horse.

Stance 5 (Gigong Closing)
Golden pan holds the moon with whole body spirit and strength.
"Fire Forged Golden Pill"

-end of the move-

"I have WHF book on 18 Lohan, Can't translate yet. "

This book is quite hard to translate. As you can see from the above example. They often not make much sense. But if you are familiar with the Taoist code then the task will be much easier. You can somewhat see the self defense move descriptions from the titles of the stance.

Again, the details/text in the book is not exactly the same but it provides an idea of how the form is like. To really get the true flavour of the 18 Lohan, I will suggest to learn from/consult those who have worked with it.

"Mantis108, Do you have a website? "

Yes, the url is www.taijimantis.com It hasn't been updated for a while. We will be updating it soon.

But if you are interested info. about TJPM. Please visit our TJPM forum. Questions about techniques are welcome there as well.

TJPM Forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/Taijimantis/start)

"As always, yourself and Tainan Mantis contribute greatly to the Forum. Thanks."

Thank you for the encouragement. Really appreciate that. :) I am sure that Tainan and I are both glad to share our views and to promote Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

Regards

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

ED,
If you had said,"This is from 18 Lohan Gong."
I would have said ,"Yes. That sounds like it."

18 Lohan gong also has techniques for placing your opponent in a front bear hug.

I believe it moves like a chi gong type exercise because of the way it teaches you to breath when someone is applying a bear hug in several of the moves.

I used to think this was an unwise move until one day in America this skinny kid was talking about how so and so made him angry.

"But he is too big, you can't hurt him."

"I have a move for him."

This was a streetfighter guy with no MA experience. I asked him to show me the move. I guess he showed me since he hadn't heard that your special move should be a secret.

So he jumped forward and got me in a front bear hug with out grabbing my arms.

-He squeezed real hard real quick
-Jammed his chin into my solar plexus
-hooked his lead leg behind my lead leg

The way he squeezed and pushed made it impossible to do anything save fall on the back of my head.

Later, in Taiwan I officially learned this move and others like it.

One of my students was a judo black. I did this to him and he said these moves are too dangerous and aren't allowed in competitions.
"Interesting." I thought.

18 Lohan and the 2nd rigid of PM both have "following step double palm strike"

If done well and succesful the opponent will be hurt.
If the opponent has studied these techniques he can apply moves from 18 Lohan as well as the rear bear hug.

Mantis 108,
Maybe you can post that 2 man clip that includes the first road of 18 Lohan.

I have started a translation page for this book on your forum.

[bamboo_ leaf]

;)

[mantis108]

Interesting stories and thanks for the reminder. :) I will check on the translation page thanks. I think it's a good idea. Good thinking on your part. *thumbs up*

The clip that you mentioned is on the emptyflower site, which is one of the best Xingyi sites. The link is

Empty Flower (http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html)

Scroll down to click on the Quicktime button. It will lead to a page. Click the thumbnail of the rear bear hug (young guy performing the hug and the old master counter). Actually that counter is Road #1 in 18 Lohan as Tainan mentioned to me before. It is without the groin strike and one needs to be pretty strong to perform it if the hug is secured.

Mantis108

[EARTH DRAGON]

108, Thank you for referring back to my post in your explaination.

Tainan, in my defense I would like to add that I had no idea what I was expalining had anything to do with the lohan Gong.. I dont even have any knowledge of it.

Strangley enough I was taught several real life situations when I first got into Bar bouncing and security by vary well known cooler, Hutch.........(kinda of like patrick swazy in roadhouse but years before the movie), but he taught us how to get out of many situations in quick time without hurting the person and to avoid law suits. This included simple joint locks, eye contact and proper talking to drunk people.

I am just glad to know that what I was taught several decades ago was taken from somewhere so respectfully. I had no idea where it came from . I just thought that hutch created things from his own experience..... you learn something new everyday thanks

[PaulLin]

ED,
Only Shyun knows where they came form and won't tell. That part is 18 Lohan, and the foot on the calf part is form ShuaiChiao. In ShuaiChiao that was called ChanTui. With proper train and add elbow control, you can throw him off on his back.

But first, for quick break out, you can apply ChinNa on the fingers. You will find that no matter how the hand grib is done, either one pinkey or thumb will for sure be on top. That 2 fingers is where you can apply ChinNa on.

The other one is with elbow control, once the elbow is controlled, he can't sqeez you nor pick you up. after that, you can go for a small trip(chian tui) or medium throw with calf wrap (ma huaw bieh tze).

If in front without arm lock in, bung can be applied. with arm locked, la can be applied. But if your stance is not firm enough(not enough drill) you can't throw.

[mantis108]

No need to thank me. You make some good points there. You deserve the credit. :) I merely pick up on the momemtum.

18 Lohan is really a gem in the PM system. It is a great non martial looking form (Jia) that teaches not only Qigong but also self defense with short strike format. Unfortunately, a lot of people was not allowed in on the "secret" which are but simple yet effective self defense moves. Even school kids can benefit from it against bullying. But in the Kung Fu world, it is lock up high on the shelves. Like you said you can learn similar stuff from non martial artist but PM as a sophisticate Kung Fu system has a uniquely organized way to teach self defense. This is why I love Praying Mantis Kung Fu. It is no doubt one of the most fascinating systems in Kung Fu world. It is high art!

Hi Paul,

Great post as usual. :)

Regards

Mantis108

[draco]

:D

Thanks for the comments keep them coming. I'd like to add a little that I have found reguarding my topic. I really think its right to breath first, (sometimes we forget) this will also give time for the attacker to wear themself down. Wrap the your foot around the calf (forgot about that) cannot pick you up or through you in this way, that is probably what the attacker will want to do.

Here are a couple more ideas. With breathing come your calmness to think of more things to do like; grab the fleshy skin of the belly, stick your thumbs or fingers into the floating rib area, stick your fingers into the ingruinal crease on either side or both, this could be done to male or female attackers. You never know when female wrestler/weight lifter will come up behind you. I'm not sure about a throw? I'd have to see, maybe using the fingers to gain control of the wrists, then with the elbow bent and used as a fulcrum. Then yes, I think that was being explained above.

Mantis 108, I could not get the video to work, I found the pic.

thanks

[EARTH DRAGON]

Paul lin, as I stated I did not learn anything like that from shyun. I learned it years beofre and actually had no idea about the 18 lohan.. is this the original 18 movements from DA MO?

also I would like to add that it is impossible to to apply chinna to the fingers if your opponet has grabbed just below your elbows you cannot use the forward motion of you arms from this grip.

I Do use the finger grab from a full nelson hold.... literally your hands are right next to his fingers , and your opponent always tires to interlock their fingers so that is the opportune time.

[PaulLin]

The history of 18 lohan kung I have no idea. Need to ask mantis108.

Also that grab below elbow where elbow can't bent, sond like I will get a hit on my groin already when the bear hug was done. I guess I wouldn't be able to do a thing after that.:(

There are different finger chinna technique applied to thumb then to pinky, the one you are talking about is on the pinky. On the thumb it will be like a "release button". It is one of the 36 basic ShiaoLin chinna taught by GM Han Chin Tang. It is called "Cha zhe meil sioan din chan qun."

[mantis108]

Hi Draco,

I am using Quicktime4 to view the files. If the problem presist, you might want to download another version of Quicktime.

Hi ED and Paul,

As for the history of 18 Lohan Gong. I know very little about it. I think Tainan is more up to par with it. May be we can open a different thread to find out more about it.

Mantis108

[PaulLin]

I think many monks in ShiaoLin history has contributed many knowledge into the system. Many of them don't like to have his name written in record, they will give credit to Da Mo instead.

[sayloc]

It all depends are the arms free, are arms pinned are arms pinned and is he picking you up off of the ground like a little girl? If it is a tll guy grabbing some one shorter the grip will be closer to the shoulders, vice versa the grip will be closer to the elbows.

I usually teach that if a strike the the back of the hand is possible do that first to loosen the grip. This is for headlocks or whatever.

Probably the easiest for a grab from the rear arms pinned is instep stomp, groin strike followed by head butt. If they pick you up a nice trick is to use one leg to go behind the knee of his leg, this will help you locate the knee for a strike or multiple strikes to his knee with your other foot.

Breathing. If you have ever put a saddle on a horse you will know that just before you tighten the straps on the saddle the horse will usually take a big inhale. When you think it is nice and tight it will exhale and you have a loose saddle. I keep this in mind while teaching techniques for a bear hug. Probably doesnt make sense to you guys though.


I watched a friend do a form called little mantis. The very beginnig of that form has a great bear hug escape arms pinned or free.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

The opening of Wah Lum's Little Fan Cha has a bear hugs arms pinned escape. It looks like a low cross block but you're actually dropping low (to avoid getting lifted), pushing arms forward to create space, curling hands back up through that space and breaking free. You then step back on an angle and turn hooking the left arm (if he doesn't let go the arms twists). This will twist his body so you sweep the lead leg while attacking the head/neck to force the takedown.

Too hard to really describe but if you know the form you'll see it.

Wah Lum 18 Elbows has a section that defends against a rear bearhug with arms free. A little different than the LFC move but has the same turn to attack move only this time it's an elbow strike instead of a takedown.

sayloc
Other than the foot behind the knee I really don't see a good bearhug defense in the beginning of Little Mantis.

[sayloc]

hualin

I see many apps for the opening of that form including bear hugs.

This works better if the bear hug is a little closer to the shoulders and not over the elbows (usually seen when a taller person grabs some one slightly shorter)

As soon as you do the rt kick to the knee (a kick to the knee can some times relax a grip), exhale and drop the rt shoulder down and raise the left one, just like in the form. The exhale will allow for some extra room and you may be able to drop that rt shoulder out. When you turn to the right I see that as an elbow strike if the shoulder came out on the first try or it could be loosening his hold. The turn to the left is used either to further loosen the grip or a lt elbow strike (he may have dodged the initial rt elbow and move over into the lt strike). From there reach over top with your lt hand and grab his hair and pull him down to your lt rising knee strike to his face. Then step the right foot down and do a downward forearm smash to the back of his neck. Then how about a rising forearm or backfist to the throat as you do a right rising knee strike to the body. Then finish him with a piet choy if you like.

May not make sense to you.

Not my style. Just liked the form when I saw it.

Have a good day

[yu shan]

Sayloc

I have thrown a saddle on a horse before, these critters KNOW who is doing this and act accordingly! Sometimes I think horses are brighter than us! I have seen what has been mentioned here in Wah Lum forms, I`ll check them out. My gut feeling, I`ll get mid-evil on you if ya grab me. JMO

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

saylok
I see what you mean in Little Mantis. I kicked it around in my mind before I answered and thought the high mantis hooks might help you to slip below the grip but I discarded the whole sequence. It sounds good but not too sure how it will work out in real life. I don't think either elbow strike will work because his arm will be in the way. I'll give it a try anyhow.

I think that's a case of needing too much modification to make it work reliably (just my opinion, might change after I try it) and how much can you change it and still be the same technique.

I like the idea of using that kind of movement to wiggle out of the bearhug. I think if I freed the right shoulder as I twisted right to free the left I would want to turn right completely and attack from there.

BTW, careful, you're becoming transparant. ;)

[sayloc]

hua lin

I think I would have to show you in person. It is kind of hard getting the idea accross on the web

Transparent. You are right. I saw the form on a video, master legends... or somthing like that. Had Sifu Lai on it.

It is nice to see that you are open minded and consider other peoples ideas.

Have a good day:)

[yu shan]

Transparent... very good. From what little I have seen, there are hidden secrets in our forms. But once you are shown just one little transparent tech. sometimes it can open up a whole new world! ;)

[sayloc]

These hidden techniques are like GOLD , LIKE GOLD!

[yu shan]

If my students could only see the kung fu they are leaning... is gold treasures. Sayloc, atleast you and I respect this. As for the bear hug, all mentioned before is good and pretty much the norm. All I can add is, if anyone grabs you, you must fight to the death... never give in.

[flem]

sayloc
how do you kick someone that close to you?

hua lin
I am surprised that no one has mentioned stomping. (the instep/toes, immediately- before a lift or other app. by the opponent) which precedes many wl forms btw

yu shan

instead of getting "barbaric'", I think that's what you said, what moves do you have for it in your forms... or will you have to improvise(make up an app)!!!

[sayloc]

Flem

It is very easy to kick someone close to you. That is why you have short range kicking techniques. You would have to see the form to know what I am talking about.

Yes of course stomping is very common in this type of self defense situation. I have many different self defense techniques for this type of situation.

I will answer for yushan. I think he will agree, if not he can speak up. I try to keep all of the moves in my forms "barbaric". I will not start a fight. If i am attacked i assume they are trying to kill me. I will try to kill them. I dont believe in holding on and hoping they will calm down. Then again I would not let an argument in a bar over a football game get to that level.

Have a nice day

[flem]

sayloc,

I am fairly familiar with the form, but what I want to know is how you would kick someone while in a bear hug.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

flem
He's talking about using the right foot behind the left knee in the beginning of the form as a kick to opponents knee. I think it would be more of a push but hooking his leg with yours to prevent being lifted would be good too. I just don't see the elbows unless they're low to the ribs. I haven't had the opportunity to try it out yet but I like the alternate thinking.

In the original bear hug thread I was hoping to hear examples of how each style would deal with it (preferably using moves from forms) but all the replies seemed to be generic. I found two examples in Wah Lum forms but so far nobody else has done the same. Actually in this thread mantis108 used traditional moves to deal with a bear hug.

What yu shan said was "My gut feeling, I`ll get mid-evil on you if ya grab me." so I guess he hasn't thought about dealing with that situation yet or doesn't want to reveal his response. I think, generally, people study MA so they have a better response than just going maniac. I too would like to hear specifics.

BTW, sayloc did mention instep stomp (then groin strike, head butt). Wah Lum also has rear eye strike (beginning of Buddha Palm and 5th Form), rear groin strike followed by rear eye poke (Buddha Palm, 5th Form again) to help deal with opponents at your back.

[sayloc]

Flem

If you do not know how to do a rt inside heel kick, then I could not explain it over the net. These types of techniues are very common in most styles and probably the most effective. Your instructor may be able to help you with this type of info.

This is another good reason to train two person forms. You will learn how close you really need to be to make a technique effective. IMO people who just go through the forms and dont fight at least moderate contact wont get it. The two person sets can be a big piece of the puzzle if performed correctly. These are just general statements and do not reflect exactly how I teach.

[flem]

sayloc,
I undertsand the technique perfectly, I should have said that it wouldn't work because there would be no power... after you break the hold, but not while your in it.

hua lin,
I think the elbows would be effective, in that technique (opening of the form), the elbows strike at the same time that the "kick" is applied, but not as a kick, but
as a pull/sweep, after hooking the opponents lower leg(assuming its a bear hug from the rear)
I wanted yushan's formal training of the said technique, as he seems to be relying on "instinct" animal instinct as opposed to what he has in his curriculum, which would be contrary to many of his statements previously

[sayloc]

Flem

I have to disagree. Here is a good test. Stand up. now, take your right foot and kick the inside of you left knee as hard as you can. If you are not willing to do this you must agree that there is a certain amount of power. Maybe not enough to "snap a knee" like you see in the movies, but enough to help loosen a grip just before the escape.

Kick yourself and let me know.

I agree with yushan 100% on animal instinct. From what I can see yushan teaches a very well rounded system based on effective fighting techniques. It sounds like it on the forum anyway.

That is why we train and drill the forms and two man techniques. Over and over and over. They become what happens when we use the "animal instinct"

If you do not train properly or enough this can never happen. Three times a week for a couple of hours wont get it.

If you train a system that does not have a good base you will just have the animal instinct of somemone who cant fight. You may look good as you get your a$$ kicked though.

Back to the bear hug. I dont know one technique that works 100% of the time. That is why we teach multiple techniuqes.

Have a good day

[Three Harmonies]

My two cents.....
I have seen only two types of bear hugs and what not.
1- Guy grabs another and has no clue what he is going to do next.
2- Guy grabs another in bear hug with sole intent of picking him up and tossing him on his melon. If guy is trained and knows how, gets the bear hug, you are toast.
In regards to the first guy, if he grabs you and has no clue to do then what danger is there. He will tire quickly just sitting there holding you.
I have only seen the second scenario in fights, never the first. And everytime the defender got tossed.
Moral.... do not ever give your back in any situation ground or standup!!

Jake

[sayloc]

I agree with you 3.

Personally if I was in the position to put a bear hug on them I would opt for a strangle hold. Easy to apply and more effective.
I would have my hands in mantis claw so I could call it a mantis technique:)

But then again this is a bear hug thread

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I see now that flem is misunderstanding (or I am) what sayloc is saying. I believe sayloc is describing the opening moves of Little Mantis and flem is describing the bow (left elbow, right elbow, chamber and kick).

As for animal instinct I believe that the purpose of training in MA is to control and overcome the animal instinct. Losing it and fighting like an animal will lose against a trained, calm, cool headed fighter. That's just my opinion. That's why fighting in anger or letting emotion dictate your response is replaced by trained responses. At least that's why I train. Too much animal instinct is what always got me into trouble when I was a kid.

Three Harmonies
I think #2 is the usual scenerio too. That's why you either drop your weight or hook his leg. Of course I'm a big believer in attacking before he gets his grip if possible. And not letting anyone get behind you. :)

You know, this actually speaks to the issue of fighting your style. If you can't use your techniques to deal with situations like this then you aren't fighting your style. If someone gives you a scenerio (either verbally or physically) you should be able to defend against it using the techniques you practice.

That's why I'm anxious to hear from others. So far Wah Lum and Louhan Gong offer responses. I'm sure there are mantis techniques to handle this scenerio.

Remember the original question of this thread is "Are there any techniques in your material that you might share with us in the release of a rear bear hug."

[18elders]

the rear bear hug, over or under your arms(guy being attacked?)

[sayloc]

Hua lin

You think flem will kick himself to try it?:)

I think many people do not understand animal instinct. Usually an animal will not attack just for the fun, jealousy, ego,or just because it can. An animal can not take the chance of becoming injured. It knows that an injury will probably kill it (It does not have health care or people to bring it food for long periods of time) Just as a lion is very careful of the way it attacks a water buffalo. it knows one kick could injure a leg and slow it down or prevent it for hunting for food in the days to come.

Animals are very, very efficient fighters. They take no chances and fight for real. They do not deal with emotion. They fight out of necessity.

I think that is what we should mold ourselves after.

What you may have mistaken for animal instinct was probably shallow human emotion that got you in trouble. True animal instinct could have prevented you from getting in the situation in the first place. Dont go near the water hole while the lions are drinking.

I agree I would like to hear of some bear hug apps from some of our mantis brothers. It does not seem many focus in self defense situations as other styles do.

[18elders]

nope, he won't kick himself(it might hurt!!!)


nice to see ya flem, how's things?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I think flem has a pretty good grasp of what works and what doesn't.

sayloc
I get what you're saying now about the animal instinct. I was talking more along the lines of blind rage. Fight to win is a nice response but we want to hear details.

18elders
Either one. I think the arms pinned is tougher. Less mobility.



Keep in mind the question isn't "What do I do against a rear bear hug?" but rather "What does your style teach you that can be used against a rear bear hug?". Name the form if applicable. Mantis108 had an excellent reply. Anybody else?

[sayloc]

Hua lin

I agree a blind rage is no good.

I tried the bear hug technique on another guy tonight and it did not work without the kick (he is a very strong guy). Even with the kick I may have had to add a head butt.:)

I guess nothing works all the time for everyone.


Flem

If you havent tried kicking yourself in the knee yet you could visit a praying mantis school and ask them to perform a form called bung bo. It has a right kick behind the left knee like the one I described. I think it may be at the beginning of the second road or line. It would show what I mean by the kick anyway.:

[sayloc]

Flem

Just joking. I am sure you know your stuff. I just read my last post and realized I came across like a real smart a$$.

Sorry

[flem]

sayloc
np. In any case in reference to hua lins response above, I do not feel that particular technique is designed for that attack...maybe my misinterpretation?
hualin
keep this thread going as I havent had time to stop and consider more possibilitiies in the forms yet... but as three harmonies eluded to, the skill must involve dropping the weight down-likke the opening of lm.
hi 18 elders
was just in your area but your shfu's stepmother gave me a bad cold so i was unable to see how your "smoke bombs" work!lol maybe next time cya

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

You're correct in that the technique is not designed for that attack (my opinion) but it is an interesting alternative app.

I think it's success depends a lot on how close the grab is to the elbows (the closer the harder to escape). Also, a shock move like the kick or a stomp always helps just before the break free attempt.

I was hoping to keep the thread going long enough to get some other responses but I guess everyone is busy with the holidays.

Give a holler next time you're down this way.

[sayloc]

hualin

What would your app. be for the right leg coming behind the left in wl bung bo as you do a grab or strike to the left side? It seems you would be putting yourself in a precarious situation if you are doing anything other than a strike.

It seems this technique is kind fo a "marker" for most bung bo forms I have seen.

18 elders

How is this technique applied in your ling side of bung bo, if you have one?

Thanks

[sayloc]

Did anyone kick themselves yet? Just curious to see if it hurts.

I have enough faith that it hurts not to do it:)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

There are two variations of that movement. One is a kick and the other is a knee brace (tuck rt foot behind lt knee). In Bung Bo/Big Mantis it's done as a kick. I've seen Pong Lai's app for the move but I'll let them comment on it themselves. BTW, I have also seen the move done as just a cross step.

I've seen Little Mantis done as both a kick and a brace. A similar kick was also in another section of Little Mantis but was removed some time ago. Not sure why but it also appears in Say Lok. The difference in how it's executed makes it more viable than the kick in Bung Bo.

Now, the only usefulness I see for it as a kick is against a Chut Sing Ma where you shift your weight forward moving into the attack and stomping the knee of the straightened leg (ouch!).

Other than that I personally think it's weak and it turns your back too much to your opponent (unless it's a cover for a complete turn). Maybe someone else can jump in and convince me otherwise.

I think your use of kicking someone behind you is better than trying to kick someone along side of you. Actually, I just thought of a weird take-down scenerio for that move. It's a bit shakey though. Wow, now another one and this one makes more sense. Talk about hidden apps! Just need to try it on someone now. As you can probably tell I haven't researched Bung Bo or WL Big Mantis yet.

The knee brace can be a defend or an attack. We can discuss that too if you like.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Actually, since Pong Lai has multiple versions they may have other moves and apps. What I saw was like the Wah Lum version although I have seen other Bung Bo with different hands in that section which may alter the application.

I think that will be my new mission, to pick apart Bung Bo and Big Mantis. I'll start next year.

I kicked off a new thread to discuss Bung Bo apps so this thread can stick with rear bear hug defense.

[Frogman]

Little mantis opening move. This is with out a doubt a in close tech, makes sense to use this against a bear hug. A question I have is since I have thought of this as an app to the side how would you use it to the back. Sifu DS??
Seems to me that after the grab kick when you sink to the right you may be pulling your opponent on top of you. I will have to try this tonight and see if it works, as I think about it, your left leg can execute a trip as you rip them down. Right on!

Animal instinct, good point from both views. To lose control is a means to its own end. In nature true combat is life and death which is most likely why so many MA styles were developed around the movement of animals. The true test is to be able to fight with out thinking about your moves and using instinct. With practices you would hope that would be some form of Mantis. I don’t feel it is necessary to train 24-7 to achieve this. When practicing you have to push yourself. Some people work out five days a week and still do their forms at or below medium speed, with minimal effort. Even these practitioners should have some reactive movement that reflexes their training.


RibHit
fm

[sayloc]

frog

the main idea is to use the kick (rt foot) as a "mind lead" to momentarily distract him so you can drop the rt elbow down possibly below his grip (depending on how tall he is or how high he is grabbing). A head butt never hurts either. one or both of the blocking techniuqes could be used as rear elbow strikes to the rear or to wiggle free. Think about it. if the punch is coming straight in you could do an intercepting blockwithout exposing your ribs like that at least not that high. If it were an overhead technique you would have to expose your ribs with the blocking arm, this is not the case.

I am sure this is not why this technique was developed but when henry ford was working on his designs he wasnt thinking about you driving it to kung fu class either:) It is not even my system, so how would I know. Just making observations.

Her is another technique for you. If he picks you up from the rear, you can take your left foot and place it behind his left knee. This will help you locate his knee with your right foot for the kick. For those of you who think a right kick to the knee may help. Oh yeah, did i mention a head butt at the same time....

Have a good day frog

[Pilot]

I briefly skimmed thru the post but I tend to disagree as I often do (kidding guys!). I would say that there are too many variables to throw an answer out there.
For example:
1. Is it more than 1 person to worry about?
2. Is it a big person or small person?
3. Is he tall or short?
4. Do you want to disable or harm?
5. What part of him has presented itself?
6. Has he lifted you?
7. etc., etc.

There are too many answers to this question. There are finger/ wrist/ arm locks, several throws that can be done from this posistion. His legs, arms, and goodies can be a target (to break) if so desired. His head/ eyes/ jaw can be attacked, and fun nerve points to strike all around. All fun stuff. :)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Well Pilot I'll make it easy for you. Pick one rear bear hug scenerio and tell us how your style of mantis (which is ???) would defend against that attack. Name the form that contains the move if you can. BTW, you vary your defense depending on size and weight of opponent?

Frogman
If you like to grapple check this out. Rear kick to opponents right knee (he shifts weight to left) while grabbing his left forearm with your left hand and his left tricep with your right hand. Step to the right and twist right pulling him over your left leg. Hang onto the arm so you can get the arm lock. Same movement although hand positions are modified.

[flem]

hua lin
I hate to type, I type you a pm and your box is full , I'm in ageement in any case

That kick can be used against a straight knee, and as sayloc said as a distraction. But i feel it's best used to attack the ankle instead of the knee., body mechanic wise more power can be delivered downward.
Oh, one more thing, and one you'll have to try to appreciate. If you follow that movement by untwisting into a horse stance then it is a leg chin na. The opponent facing you in a left foot forward stance, the "kick" (right foot) is hooked around the opponent's ankle, when you untwist, the movement torque's their knee causing them to go down, but you have to have a strong hook on their ankle, try it, you'll like it.

[Pilot]

Hua Lin Laoshi

Hmmmmm. Lets just say the guy is stupid (after all he is grabbing you in a bear hug from behind). He grabs you with both arms around your chest with his head straight up. You could head butt to his nose, there are several body maneuvers to break his grip to where you can deliver an elbow or even spin to face him. You can bend forward and either let him fall over you or grab a leg. You can kick shins, top of his foot, his goodies, his knees, etc. You can trap his foot and push back. You can grab a hunk of thug and use as leverage. I haven’t touched on throws yet. It just depends on what he presents to you as a target. I am no expert by any means and I am still learning, but I’ve seen enough to know there are a lot of open doors in an attack. I haven’t seen anyone in a long time actually try that on someone unless his buddy was about to pound you from the front, and that would change your tactic. I do not remember ever being taught that tactic to attack or pin anyone in any style that I’ve taken. Maybe if the guy tucked his chin into your back and kneed you in your kidneys while holding you might possibly work? I do know in wrestling they start out in that position some times. That is just one of those fun things to play with in class during free time. :D

[Pilot]

Follow up...

style of mantis (which is ???)
Currently 8 Step Preying Mantis :cool:


BTW, you vary your defense depending on size and weight of opponent?
Yes I do consider that. It may just be me but when working out with different people of different sizes, I’ve noticed that some moves do not work well on different people because of body shape and size. It is just physics. Have you not noticed this? :confused:


;)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Pilot
I've noticed that adjustments are necessary but to have separate defenses depending on height and weight (except for extremes) adds too much complexity.

If height => 5' 8" and weight => 180# then defense A
If height => 5' 8" and weight < 180# then defense B
If height < 5' 8" and weight => 180# then defense C
If height < 5' 8" and weight < 180# then defense D

Anyhow, I think your missing the spirit of the discussion which is to explain how your style defends against a rear bear hug. We aren't looking for generic ideas of things to do. We just want to see how the different styles approach this situation.

It's easy to reel off a list of POSSIBLE things to try but what does Ba Bu teach you and if it's in a form then name the form.

"there are several body maneuvers to break his grip"
That's what we're trying to find out. What body manuevers does 8 Step teach that will break the grip? Details please.

I think this is similar to the concept of training forms and techniques but using generic kickboxing when you fight. Why would you train all these moves and forms if you're going to use generic Karate (yep, I said Karate) in your self defense?

BTW, I never saw rear bear hug taught as an attack in either but street fighters do it and MMA/grappling guys do it so you should have a defense for it.

flem
I made room in my PM box. The kick you describe is the deleted kick in LM and also the kick in Say Lok. It's done low and with the heel. Kicking across and behind, for me at least, is very weak and anyone with a decent stance will shrug it off.

GBL's description of using against the side step puts you in a better position to deliver a strong kick. As done in Bung Bo I think it's weak. Twisting the upper body opposite lower body takes away from the kick (and hands). Just my opinion.

[18elders]

I agree, there are many different variables to think of.
When i would do a bear hug on someone, i never stand square behind him, i always have one leg in front, turning my hip to protect the jewels and also gives me more stability. Only one leg is exposed but it is not directly behind his leg, if he lifts up his leg to try a kick or stomp to my foot, it is easy to toss him as he is on one leg.

Yes, i also think your defense will depend on the size and strength of your opponent.
If you get some 6'4'' 300 pound guy lifting you up and squeezing the life out of your chest, it is a bit different than a 5'7'' 150 pound guy putting a bear hug on you.

I know a guy who competes in the strong man competitons, i think if he got ahold on me he would be able to crush my ribs easily.

[Pilot]

Hua Lin Laoshi

I don’t mean to sound argumentative and I meant no offense, but I think that is the spirit of 8 Step Kung Fu. It is not what do you do for a straight punch, or what do you do for a sidekick. It is what he has left vulnerable or open to attack and where you are in relation to him. Even in training, the attacker is almost irrelevant as far as what he must do so that I can do this maneuver or throw. If you are practicing a certain throw and you need his left arm, then you do anything you want to get the arm you need. When practicing throws is friendly sparing, you attack depending what you can get based on what he leaves open and your position in relation to his. Therefore, as far as I know, 8 Step doesn’t have a bear hug maneuver, but I have a long way to go in this style and a lot more to learn (i.e. I don’t know even half of this style). As far as describing some of the techniques, they sort of frown on us students giving out advanced info. I guess it makes it a little mysterious or maybe it is a tease to get people to join. :p


18elders

Yea I know what you mean about the strong guy. I guess the real trick is in not letting them get a hold on you. :D

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I appreciate your comment and understand that each situation is unique. I don't mean to direct this at you but in general, I think throwing out generic possible responses could be viewed as an indication the the person either doesn't know or hasn't really thought about it.

Now, I'm not trying to start an argument here but all the things you mentioned are in your style and are regularly practiced?

The reason I ask is because, to me, they are generic ideas that you can find in any MA school or magazine. Nothing you said seemed very style specific to me. This is why I view it as similar to the concept of learning a style but sparring with generic kickboxing techniques.

There are numerous threads in this and other forums that question why you don't see people using their style when sparring. I'm curious as to whether the same is true for self defnse moves.

The Wah Lum defense I mentioned is practiced in the form (Little Fan Cha). When are your suggestions practiced?

BTW, I'm still interested in hearing about the body movements to break the grip if you're free to explain. I understand if you can't since Wah Lum is also a bit on the secret side. Giving out technical info to non students is frowned on. I only do it to offset some of the complaints made against us.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Well flem, looks like this thread is done. I'm surprised none of the mma lurkers didn't jump on this.

Maybe I'll throw this out in the main forum and see what other styles have. I have to admit that I'm somewhat shocked at the lack of technical responses. Stuff like this is the basics in some of the Karate schools I've attended.

PM me if you find anything else in the forms.

[Frogman]

Just for the record I was told that the opening to LM is a defend to the left, and that the right leg is a support not a kick. I was shown the app and tried both ways. I had a hard time using it against a bear hug. Yes that’s right I was shown an app, I guess all you have to do is ask.
:eek:

RibBlast
fm

[Oso]

Originally posted by Three Harmonies
My two cents.....
I have seen only two types of bear hugs and what not.
1- Guy grabs another and has no clue what he is going to do next.
2- Guy grabs another in bear hug with sole intent of picking him up and tossing him on his melon. If guy is trained and knows how, gets the bear hug, you are toast.
In regards to the first guy, if he grabs you and has no clue to do then what danger is there. He will tire quickly just sitting there holding you.
I have only seen the second scenario in fights, never the first. And everytime the defender got tossed.
Moral.... do not ever give your back in any situation ground or standup!!

Jake

I'm going with Jake on this one.

Basics:

1 -- don't let him get his hand's locked

2 -- get your root


from there my two favorite are:

A - step behind and dump

B - reach between your own legs and knee bar and turn into a leg lock.


I've done tons of fancy dancy looking stuff but if you get a determined attacker and they get the hands locked on you then you better have a ground game.

oh, imho, you will be on your butt before you can get a small circle move on the fingers and even if you did break a finger or two...well, that's where the term 'acceptable loss' comes into play.

also, I tend to see a tendancy to open distance in a grapple amongst kung fu guys and I'm not so sure that's the best stragedy....

*edit*

I do agree w/ hooking the leg though but the hugger can just sacrafice and go down with your leg still hooking his and it won't really matter to him.

just my .02....

{meanders off to find a kung fu guy to play with}

[draggin dragon]

For what it may be worth we were taught a series of "basic breaks" in Shudokan & there were two scenarios for this: an over the arm rear bearhug, or under the arms. Here are the solutions we were taught:

Under the arms: Rear head butt if their face was accessible & horizontal elbow strike to the rear. If you experiment a bit you will see that a rear horizontal elbow strike has a lot more range than you might think. An alternate method was to immediately drop your weight straight down while executing a strong hip thrust to buy some space--then rear hammerfist groin strike.

Over the arms: same rear hip thrust & weight drop + grab your pant legs & walk your hands to the rear for a groin grab or strike. The rear head butt is an option as well.

Both options also included hooking the legs if opponent attempted to lift you & possibly scraping the opponents shin with the outer edge of your foot.

I have seen similar methods to these in Chi-na books

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Hmmm, I was hoping to hear of Mantis specific responses.

Oso
"even if you did break a finger or two...well, that's where the term 'acceptable loss' comes into play"

I understand what you're saying but with the above you're shrinking his arsenal of weapons. How much grabbing will he do with a couple of broken fingers?

He succeded in bringing you down but now has 2 broken fingers. What are his options for finishing the fight now?

Actually I shouldn't contribute to continuing this thread because it's become generic and no longer Mantis specific. Oh well, let's see how long it goes away this time.

[Oso]

HLL, the problem there is that I don't think there are any chin na techniques that are uniquely mantis. I guess we could talk application from forms but the applications themselves wouldn't be any different than from, say, an eagle claw form...especially since eagle claw is known to have a large repertoir of chin na and mantis is so heavily based on eagle claw.



I understand what you're saying but with the above you're shrinking his arsenal of weapons. How much grabbing will he do with a couple of broken fingers?

maybe. back in HS, I remember seeing a guy follow another guy around the mat, they were down, and he only had one finger latched onto the other guys arm.

also, bjj guys don't utilize a grip as much as the 'lobster claw' of their entire hand to hook you. this, imo, is not different from sticky hand principles where you don't actually grab with fingers yet can adhere and follow as needed.




He succeded in bringing you down but now has 2 broken fingers. What are his options for finishing the fight now?

many, something that isn't being talked about too much on this thread is the reality of adrenaline and endorphines. Those two fingers will hurt like a beyotch later but you need a lot more than that to finish a fighter. I broke two fingers in HS and they got taped up and I practiced the rest of the day and didn't miss practice even after the doctor put a real splint on them. I broke 2 metacarpals at the beginning of class once a couple years ago and finished my teaching for the night.

I'll go out on a limb and say that there are three main things that need to be affected on someone before you can be said to have 'finished' the fight:

their ability to stand

their ability to see

their ability to breath

but, a good ground fighter may be able to still fight you if he can't stand or he can't see IF he already has a hold of you...so I'm not convinced those are even fight stoppers in a grappling/chin na situation.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Agreed, although I had no intention of claiming broken fingers to be a fight ender. I don't believe in prolonged fights but the worst case scenerio you can pick him apart by shutting down his tools.

Whether he can fight through pain or not is irrelevant. If he can't grab or punch your odds of victory have increased tremendously.

Some of the things mentioned may not be fight stoppers but they will definitely turn things to your favor.

So, did the one finger guy in HS win the match?

[Oso]

Agreed, although I had no intention of claiming broken fingers to be a fight ender. I don't believe in prolonged fights but the worst case scenerio you can pick him apart by shutting down his tools.

agreed 'defanging' as it were.
I just know form personal, and painful, experience that broken fingers are overated as a strategy.

Whether he can fight through pain or not is irrelevant. If he can't grab or punch your odds of victory have increased tremendously.

Some of the things mentioned may not be fight stoppers but they will definitely turn things to your favor.

So, did the one finger guy in HS win the match?

yes....dangit....;)