HOw would this rule change the UFC

[jun_erh]

new rule no 1. No groundfighting.

What do you think? Do any BJJ or wrestlers have a problem with that?

I think it would make for better fights personally

more like Boxing.

[old jong]

It would be like removing the ball from baseball!

[taijiquan_student]

No groundfighting--then it wouldn't really be the UFC anymore. Kungfu guys and strikers complain that its unfair because it is tailored to grapplers. If there was no grappling, then the grapplers would complain it was tailored for strikers. The way it is now (even though the current UFC basically blows. When Carmen Electra and the playboy bunnies are in the front row talking to the camera about how great an event the UFC is you know its gone downhill), you have both ranges--standing, and grappling. And the clinch, too, of course. The grapplers can fight on the ground if they can get the opponent there, and the strikers can strike the other guy, assuming they don't get taken down. While someitimes if I'm in a certain mood I think it somewhat easier for grapplers to win, pretty much all the time the reason strikers complain about the rules is that they can't stay on their feet.

Further more, if there was no groundfighting in the UFC, it would be like boxing, not a NHB tournament.

(Sometimes I actually am really bored watching the UFC because a lot of times they lie around on the ground and don't do anything for minutes. I know their working things, trying to find ways to pass the guard, get better leverage, etc., so they're not JUST lying there, but it's really d.amn boring sometimes. Still, they shouldn't abolish the ground just because it gets a little less entertaining to watch sometimes)

[taijiquan_student]

What old jong said!:D

[jun_erh]

(Sometimes I actually am really bored watching the UFC because a lot of times they lie around on the ground and don't do anything for minutes. I know their working things, trying to find ways to pass the guard, get better leverage, etc., so they're not JUST lying there, but it's really d.amn boring sometimes. Still, they shouldn't abolish the ground just because it gets a little less entertaining to watch sometimes)

that's what I'm saying

[old jong]

I assume that it is a question of tastes. I personnaly find these things very boring but I sometimes watch these shows out of curiosity and to simply be aware of the tendencies. I however think that "Pride" is more interresting to watch!...Are there less rules? I'm not sure. Maybe it is because the referees are faster to have the fighters on their feet when there is nothing happening?...I remember some fights with Royce Gracie when I felt that time was stopped, like in some old "Twillight Zone" re-run!
Anyway, I can now see a choke or a armbar coming and understand more what "the other side" can do!
;) I still like that more than syncronised swimming! :D

[taijiquan_student]

Yeah, I have always liked Pride much more than the UFC, but I can't figure out why. I remember last time I watched Pride I saw a lot more quality throws and some actual skillfully applied techniques. UFC now is very oafish.

[qeySuS]

If you dont like the Groundfighting in UFC go watch K-1 or Muay Thai/Kickboxing and stop calling yourself a MMA fan (if that's what you do).

What makes UFC and MMA in general unique is where the fight goes you go, your not stood up just because you fall down or whatever (well after long periods of inactivity your stood up but that's it).

If you dotn like the groundgame you dont like MMA it's that simple, go watch striking events insted.

[Mr. Nemo]

LOL. Yeah, I think BJJ and wrestling would have a problem with that rule.

It wouldn't be the UFC anymore. It would by shootboxing or K-1 or something, but not MMA and not UFC.

[Chang Style Novice]

Actually, that's almost identical to the current rule:

(k)No(w) groundfighting.

[Grappling-Insanity]

Lets reverse the situation, how about a new rule for San-sho(sp?).

New rule number 1: No striking.

Do you think Cung-Le would have a problem with that?

I think it would make for better fights personally

More like grappling.


Btw it wouldnt look like boxing it would look like shoot-boxing.

How is the UFC tailored to grapplers? explain this to me.

[rubthebuddha]

baseball minus the ball? i dunno, those bases can be pretty exciting.

just sitting there, waiting to pounce.

and, just when you least expect it, someone may step on it on the way to another base!

[Yung Apprentice]

Yeah, it does get real boreing watching two guys on top of each other, looking like they are doing almost nothing. Are there any contests that are standing up, but have different arts in them?ie. Karate, KunG Fu, Muy Thai, Boxing, Savate etc.? I want to watch some Pride fights, is there a video out somewhere? Has there been a striker in either both UFC and Pride, that is successful in avoiding the takedown?

[Stacey]

Its called

K 1

[qeySuS]

Yung Apprentice: Lots of that happening.

In UFC the lightweight champion is Jens Pulver, in his last title defense he beat BJ Penn who is the frist american to become a black belt world champion in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, so there's a win over a great grappler, the middleweight champion in Pride is Vanderlai Silva who is almost a pure striker, he trains Muay Thai very hardcore and strikes all the time, he's got a beautiful sprawl (watch Silva VS Henderson, silva has some nice wrestling moves) plus he's a purple belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (there are 5 belts, white/blue/purple/brown/black).

Then of course there's the Pride heavyweight champion, Antonio Rodrigo "Minotauro" Nogeira, who i think everyone can agree on has the best submission skills in the business (at his weight at least), and he's NOT boring on the ground, he always goes for submissions. But the thing with him is he's also been boxing since he was 15 (he started boxing before he started BJJ) so he's a great boxer as well.

This is basicly what your seeing in the MMA world today, fighters that are good in every aspect of the game but usually prefer one area or excell in one area, Minotauro is an excellent boxer (he's even said he wants to fight in K-1) but at the same time i dont think anyone can beat him on the ground. Your not seeing Kung Fu VS BJJ, your seeing fighter VS fighter.

[wolfkiller]

Originally posted by qeySuS
. Your not seeing Kung Fu VS BJJ, your seeing fighter VS fighter. [/B]

that's one of a few things i don't like about MMA competitions/ competitors who cross train. i can't recognize what style the guy is using.

part of the fun of watching fighters of two different martial arts fight is to see and notice the differences of their fighting styles and to be able to recognize this technique or this method a belonging to this or that style.

ground grappling doesn't have much differences once they get on the ground.

[sticky fingers]

you wanna watch Pride fights?
get Winmx - type pride (or anything else you wanna watch) in the search bar and you're away...

I hope this thread doesn't resurrect the ghost of Ralek

[qeySuS]

That may very well be that it was more fun to watch style vs style, but this is evolving into a sport of it's own, with a new breed of fighters that are proficient in all ranges. So you might even say that this is a martial art of itself (MMA).

[Yung Apprentice]

HHHMMM, I thought K 1 was just for kickboxers, and Muy Thai, guess I was wrong. What exactly is a sprawl, and how do you preform it?

[jun_erh]

grappling insanity- If grapplers don't have enough confidence in their stand up fighting/ striking, don't you think they should train that more? The only way you can win a fight is by wrestling? Not very practical. How can you be an "Ultimate Fighter" if you can only do one thing?

They should take out the groundfighting, it's boring.

[Sharky]

Keep the ground fighting in the UFC. Just change the surface of the ring to hard concrete, and litter it with broken glass bottles, syringes, gravel, coke cans and chip wrappers.

[Archangel]

jun_erh

You could say the same for strikers as well.

If they don't have enough confidence in their grappling ability dont you think they should train more? the only way you can win a fight is by striking? Not very practical. How can you be an "Ultimate Fighter" if you can only do one thing?


Sharkey,

That rule would be ESPECIALLY BAD for the strikers. Could you imagine a high amplitude throw by a Greco Roman specialist onto concrete, that would be messy. Or how about a striker on his back on broken glass getting his head smashed into ground. Believe me the nice padded mats protect the strikers not the grapplers.

[Sharky]

Hush.

[Ryu]

What exactly is question being asked? Is it whether or not UFC is the "same thing" as a streetfight OR do you need to know groundfighting for real streetfighting?

I think it's clear the UFC is not a real streetfight. The fighters study each other for a long time, they usually are not angry with each other, it's controlled emotions, a controlled setting, no street clothes, no weapons, no chairs, no knifes, no police, no beer bottles, no surprise attacks (sucker punches), of course it's not a real streetfight. I think the UFC (well the older ones anyway) represents the physicality of a possible streetfight. It shows the 'truths" of what happens when people physically fight without the other environmental aspects. What happens in a real fight is that it looks somewhat "sloppy", people throw blows at each other, people clinch and fall, people turn their heads, people tackle and roll around on the ground, people punch on the ground, people slam people up against walls, etc.
All of this happens in real fights. People who have been in real fights I think will obviously know this. But there's millions of other factors in it. So the UFC is not a "streetfight"
It shows one aspect of streetfighting I suppose.

As for the grappling in streetfighting. I do think you should have good instruction in it. That doesn't mean "Joe joe's 2 day seminar grappling tactics" you go to the people who know how to do it best.
Some fights will never hit the ground. Some fights will end during the encroachment. People are nose to nose, one guy lands a surprise shot and follows up with fists as the other falls backwards, etc. That stuff happens all the time. Someone hits someone with a baseball bat, they fall, etc. No grappling or submission holds there. BUT sometimes streetfighters have wrestling backgrounds and will shoot in on you. (know how to sprawl) Some people will be better punchers than you and your only chance IS to take them down to the ground. Some people slip, some people miss a punch and get tackled. That's just the realities of it. AND contrary to popular belief sometimes the ground IS the best place to fight in a certain situation. Sometimes it's not. You have to be able to adapt. Biting DOES work sometimes. I've done it before. But sometimes it WON'T work. Sometimes the guy will just get POed and start pounding your head in while he's mounted or cross side.
You've got to know groundfighting to deal with that. Doesn't mean you have to be a professional groundfighter. You need to know and practice and be able to actually PULL OFF those things that can really save you in that situation. A lot of people don't know how to fight on the ground at all. Some situations ARE one on one. Some DON'T involve weapons. Sometimes you CAN just take them down and ground pound them unconscious. Even in the mean "streets" ;)

Don't limit yourself.
Just 2 cents.

Ryu

[jun_erh]

archangel- since you answer a question with a question I'll do the same thing. Which would be more fun to watch: a wrestling match or a bare knuckles boxing fight. Obviously the latter. UFC is the worst of both worlds because it has the boringness of wrestling and the longer time limit of a world class fight. Bring back the UFC to the way it was in the early days, get rid of the groundfighting.

[sunstylin]

There is a great deal of skill involved in ground fighting if you understand how hard it is you can appreciate it a great deal better and its not so boring! No ground fighting would most likely devolop in more emphasis on kicking and punching and clenchingand grapling! It would not be the same contest, this is designed to promote wrestling and Brazialian Jui-Jitsu not kung-fu or boxing! My two cents on the subject!:cool:
Dont concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavonly glory!

[Archangel]

jun,

What do you mean early days????? There has ALWAYS been groundfighting. The appeal of the MMA has always been it's openess; every range (striking, stand-up grappling, and ground grappling) at the same time. . Here you can have a Judoka against a Thai boxer; A savate champion against against a wrestler etc. and they are all on an even playing field. As far as boringness goes, well thats up to the viewer but for me thats never been whats it about. I liked the UFC it is the best legal venue we have to determine fighting ability i'm interested in the technique as well as the blood and guts.

[jun_erh]

sunstylin- here's what you wrote "this is designed to promote wrestling and Brazialian Jui-Jitsu ". now we're getting somewhere

aa- I know there's always been groundfighting, I meant getting back to the exitement of the first UFC's. It IS up to the viewer to decide what it's about, and it's about entertainment to me.

[Grappling-Insanity]

Jun_erh: The thing that makes MMA (UFC, Pride) interesting is that it allows for all ranges of combat. Some people like grappling and enjoy watching it. Now I can tell theres not gonna be much of a point of arguing with you, but if you dont like dont watch it man.

And most fighters in MMA dont even consider themselves grapplers or strikers its called MIXED MARTIAL ARTS for a reason!!.

[Badger]

Hows that???
Every competitor can use their full arsenal of empty hand weapons.
What can the Kungfu & Karate people not do in the UFC?
Dont say eye-strikes or throat attacks.
Grapplers can do them too & have a better position to do them.
What can the Boxers not do??

Neither strikers or grapplers dominate NHB.
Its a working knowledge of both.



Badger

[Archangel]

Fair enough, if it's purely about entertainment for you I suggest you watch San Shou or Kuoshu matches. There what you may be looking for. I'll stick with MMA, I'm interested in finding out who is the best overall fighter.

[Tigerstyle]

"Which would be more fun to watch: a wrestling match or a bare knuckles boxing fight. Obviously the latter. UFC is the worst of both worlds because it has the boringness of wrestling and the longer time limit of a world class fight. Bring back the UFC to the way it was in the early days, get rid of the groundfighting."

jun_erh,
You really can't say obviously, becasue an answer to what is "fun" to someone is an opinion. It may be obvious to you, but maybe someone may not like the amount of blood that may occur in a bare-knuckles fight. Maybe someone might think bare-knuckle fighting is more boring, because after a while in those events people could start picking and choosing their strikes more carefully due to the amount of hand injuries that occur with no hand protection.

Also the "early days of the UFC" was a lot of Royce Gracie taking people to the ground and choking them out. There were some interesting stand-up matches going on, but many of the fights were ending up on the ground (wether or not the two fighters knew any "ground fighting"). I think the technique and skill of the competitors has gone way up since then. There are probably more striking KO's now then there were "back in the day". I do miss the "style vs. style" thing the UFC used to hype up though.


This thread is probably just a troll to rile up the rasslers around here, but I wanted to answer anyway ;) .

[Tigerstyle]

"Keep the ground fighting in the UFC. Just change the surface of the ring to hard concrete, and litter it with broken glass bottles, syringes, gravel, coke cans and chip wrappers."

Sharky,
The strikers would still say the surface favors grapplers, because the grapplers would be throwing the strikers onto the glass and syringes, while they land on the chip wrappers :p .

[Sharky]

Yeah, but it'd be amusing to watch.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sunstylin
...this is designed to promote wrestling and Brazialian Jui-Jitsu not kung-fu or boxing!

Oh, really? Then why do they keep standing the fighters up after they have been on the ground for a while? Oh yeah, they do that because they are in favor of making the grapplers look good. Then the grapplers can just wade through punching range and take the strikers back down to the ground, showing how easy it is to make the strikers look bad. Yes, the rules favor the grapplers and promote those styles as being better.

[Ford Prefect]

Not sure how many of you are aware of this, but the only rules in UFC 1-5 were:

1) No eye gouges
2) No fish hooking
3) No biting

Groin strikes, small joint manipulation, pressure points, etc were all allowed for quite some time after that as well.

[joedoe]

This is such a pointless argument.

[Yung Apprentice]

I think that the rules are pretty close to even. Favoring no one. I just think there are better grapplers fighting right now than strikers. I'm not saying that grapplers ARE better, I'm saying that I'm sure some great strikers that don't compete. It's not like we are seeing Tyson in there. (not taking anything away from the grapplers) It's like Olympic Baseball. There are some great teams in many different countries. But how would we know who is the best, if the best players aren't playing?(because the Majors don't stop their season to let players compete)

[neito]

the matches i've seen lately have had the fighters stand up after each timed round. this system is way more exciting, since you get to see more strikes and take downs. many of the fights even end in knockout. i like to see fighters with a full range of skills. maybe its less realistic than just letting the fight go, but standing them up supplies the action that the fans need

[jun_erh]

"the matches i've seen lately have had the fighters stand up after each timed round. this system is way more exciting, since you get to see more strikes and take downs. many of the fights even end in knockout. i like to see fighters with a full range of skills. maybe its less realistic than just letting the fight go, but standing them up supplies the action that the fans need"

Neito, I wasn't aware of that, it's a good idea. I think my general inspiration was the UFC in Brazil video. The matches were as much an endurance test for the audience as the fighters. Even in the birthplace of BJJ, people were booing. I guess in general my thing wasn't against grappling but boredom. It's my opinion that all martial arts are seriously limited and that that's a good thing.

[MA fanatic]

This is a silly thread!!! It makes no sense. Dude, why don't you post about making it elegal to kick in kickboxing. What are you talking about? UFC and NHB events are what they are because they allow ground and stand-up fighting. This makes these events closer to real combat than any other martial arts competitions. Granted, NHB, is not a street fight, but it provides an avenue for so called masters to test where they stand.
MA fanatic

[sunstylin]

The UFC was started by Royce Gracie and his family to promote Gracie Jui-Jitsu, Gung-Fu is limited in the UFC as you can not break or shatter limbs, strike to the groin, strike to the floating ribs which can cause internal bleeding, eye guage or throat strikes! And no jui-jitsu or wrestling is not in a better place to do them at all! I dont know where you got that from but please explain! what is the theory behind this? Wrestling and jui-jitsu are sports not self defence! You can not use them on the street very practicaly against more then one attacker which Gung-Fu is designed for! How can you possibly compare the two or even put them in the Octagon against each other unless there are no rules ! Because Gung-Fu is designed for survival with the least amount of damage to yourself!Gung Fu would destroy but groin strikes are no longer allowede in the UFC, Gung Fu would use pressure points, Chi meridians Bil Gee, Try the Din Mak in UFC i don't think they will allow a death sport, so in that respect UFC is designed for Wrestlers, BJJ and mma alike. :cool:
Don't concentrate on the finger or you will misss all the heavonly glory!

[MA fanatic]

Sunstylin,
You have to wake up. First of all, originally, in the UFC, groin strikes, throat strikes, strikes and small limb manipulations, and rip hitting was legal. Kung Fu guys got creamed. All those fancy strikes failed. Wrestling happens to be a martial art created around the same time, if not earlier than Bodhidarma introduced the first 18 postures to the Chinese. You're right, it is difficult to grapple with more than one attacker, but that is why Brazilian JJ teaches an arsenal of stand up techniques (muay thai style kicking and punching...including eye gouging, floating rib strikes, and groin pulls). I don't think you have ever experienced sparring with a trained grappler. You seem to believe the same lies some martial arts masters have been passing along for years stating that their art can kill with a blow to floating ribs (its bs). When martial arts were becoming popular in the US (around the time American soldiers were returing from Japan, Korea, and Okinawa), masters argued over which style was best. Masters would claim that "should there be a competition with no rules, we would dominate." Well, when the Gracies opened the first UFC, and those competitions began spreading all over the US, those same masters realized that their techniques simply don't work. How come high ranking Wing Chun and other kung fu masters get taken down at will by bjj or wrestlers? What good it the art if they couldn't stand on their feet? All arts have holes. BJJ is not perfect. But, trust me man, don't believe the bs you hear from some masters who have never proved their fighting skills. BJJ has it's weaknesses, but Kung Fu has just as many.

OH, as for UFC being designed to promote BJJ. You guys make me laugh. Any martial artists could have proved that BJJ does not work by simply not allowing a take down, or KOing a BJJ black belt. All so called Karate, Kung Fu, Kyoshu, TKD, Boxing, Savate, and Penkak Silat masters failed. If you want to prove that what your master taught you works, just enter a Vale Tudo tournament and see if you can crack the floating rib causing massive internal bleeding. Until you get in the ring, don't critique those who have the balls to.
MA fanatic

[jun_erh]

MA fanatic- some people don't enter those things because they don't give a **** nor do they want to help the gracies make money. Not because they're afraid.

[MA fanatic]

Jun: How would you help the Gracies make money if you enter an NHB event? You don't make any sense at all. First of all, the Gracies only owned the first 4 UFCs. Second, besides the UFC, you have Rings, Pride, King of the Cage, Hook and Shoot, International Fighting Championship (IFC), and International Vale Tudo Brazil (still the fighting tournament with less rules and no safety gear). These are the main competitions. There are numerous others on a small scale held in evey major city and state. What do Gracies have to do with it? I think this 'not want to help Gracies make money' is an excuse many so called masters used and continue to use when their students ask them 'master, how would you fair against these NHB guys?.' Its bs. This has nothing to do with the Gracies. And, as long as we're on the topic of Gracies, Gracies put up the money for the first 4 UFCs. They were also putting up a purse for those who could defeat them. They would be losing money, not winning it. Trust me, if those masters trully believed they could win, they would go and try to win. They're afraid. Personally, I respect every man, win or lose, who tested his skills in an NHB event.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

Sunstylin:
What I say proves crap? lol First of all, before I prove anything, you tell me a name of a single kung fu master who had proven his skills in any form of hand to hand combat in modern times. Don't go into stories and legends. Trust me, I have read them all. Ron Van Clief was a 10th degree black belt in Okinawan Goju Ryu and a master of Chinese martial arts. He (though a great guy and a good teacher from what I hear) lost in minutes and taken down in 4 seconds. In IL. there have been several masters (though not from China) who have competed in NHB events. There have also been a few who faught in Indiana. All lost. The person you are claiming to be a novice was a guy claiming to practice some 5 animal kung fu. I never thought of him as a master, but he looked pretty good. As for other masters, there have been masters from karate and tkd who have competed in no rules events since the day they began. Don't just look at the UFC, the promoters of which quickly realized that having "masters" of traditional arts (like Thomas Ramirez claiming to be a Pa Gua master from Porto Rico...and getting KOd with a single punch in 8 seconds) competing would get them killed. Look at the No Rules competitions all over the world. Check out the Gracie tape where Royce fights and defeats (twice in a row same guy) a San Soo Kung Fu teacher. Than see his brother Royler defeat a 3rd degree black belt in Kempo (later that Kempo guy published an artical in black belt magazine about his experience). Why not see some Vale Tudo tapes from Brazil (the one features Marco Ruas) where a team of Kung Fu fighters get destroyed by a few nhb competitors. Actually, get any no rules competition from Brazil and/or tapes of challenge matches at the Gracie academy. All traditional masters lose and lose badly. Rent some Extreme Fighting tapes and see how well some proclaimed Wing Chun fighters do. What about a Wing Chun grandmaster (name not included) who got taken down by a challenger at his very own seminar in late 80s. The grandmaster was in his prime back then. No reason he should not have been able to stop a basic double leg take down from a guy with mediocre background in college wrestling. In IL, IN, WI, and MI we have seen no Rules competitions in the early days (before people truly accepted cross training) where classical fighers got demolished. I would imagined people from the West and East coast witnessed the same. I have yet to hear of a traditional master winning any full contact no rules even. Their excuse, "Our skills are too deadly to be showcased...we practice to fight for life and death not sport...we don't want to make the Gracie's money...NHB is for kids, true masters would handle them." LOL To me, and many like me this sounds like, 'I don't want to embarass myself and realize that my skills are not good enough to stop a cross trained fighter...I don't want to face truth.'

Tell me, are you one of those people who still believes in the invincibility of a master? In that case...which one? I'd like to meet this fellow. Seems like before 1993, many masters have been claiming to teach the ultimate art stating that the reason they don't compete, is that there are too many rules. Now that we have tournaments with virtually no rules, all these masters avoid challenging their skill. I respect all that have stepped into the Octagon. Whether they were guys like Fred Ettish (a 5th degree in Kempo who couldnt take a punch) or Royce Gracie. They, at least, didn't talk. And, those novices you Kung Fu novices you mentioned. I respect them much more than any Kung Fu master talking about his skills and skills of his masters, as appose to displaying some of the against a contested apponent. Hell, if Jason Delucia (a novice according to you) faught what you would call a MASTER, I'd have my money on Jason.

Are there good masters? I'm sure there are. I'm not sure where they're hiding. Any master in his prime (as masters of Sambo, Judo, BJJ, Pancration, JKD, have done ) can prove his arts effectiveness by stepping into the ring.
MA fanatic

[Dark Knight]

"Gung-Fu is limited in the UFC as you can not break or shatter limbs, strike to the groin, strike to the floating ribs which can cause internal bleeding, "

In the early UFC's groin strikes were allowed. Today you can try to break or shatter limbs, strike to the floating ribs. But its not as easy as your instructor has been telling you.

[Dark Knight]

Sunstylin you need to find a real fighter and try some heavy contact, your small friends will not do it for you. Highschool fights are not real, or the typical guy in the street, they dont hit hard, find someone real to train with.

[MA fanatic]

See that is what ****es me off Dark Night. People so brain washed that they actually believe in bs like that (one strike one kill, shattering bones and death strikes). Lets just look at this example. Sensei Kanazawa is one of karate's greatest masters. He could do a flying side kick over people's heads without a running start. The man could break any brick upon request in a stack of 10. He shatters rocks with his bare fists. Yet, when asked if he could kill with a blow, he laughed and said, "I one so many full contact tournaments, haven't killed anyone yet."

I think people who still believe in unbeatable masters are those individuals who have a fragile sense of self esteem. Needing to believe such martial arts urban legends is what keeps them going. Getting into the ring would mean realizing that most of what you have believed about combat is false. Getting into the ring could mean being embarrassed in front of your students. So, it is easier to critique than fight. I think most traditional masters would be destroyed if they stepped into the NHB ring. I think really quickly they will find out how difficult it really is to shatter bones, rip off limbs, and kill with a single blow.

Seems like with the advent of NHB events, traditional stylists now have an avenue to display their skill. Very few have actually had the courage to step into that ring. How ironic.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

The funny thing is, all the strikes mentioned above by a poster saying they are not legal, are actually legal. Go ahead, hit the floating ribs all you want. I think you'll find yourself breaking your wrist long before you crack any ribs of a trained NHB competitor. As for all other rules, there are tournaments which no protective gear is worn, and everything wiht the exception of eye gouging and biting is permitted. Yes, even your deadly groin strikes. I think you'll find even groin strikes wont stop a fighter with some pain resistance who is experiencing an adrenaline rush.
MA fanatic

[sunstylin]

where is the name of these so called Gung-Fu masters who entered in the UFC ? I didnt ask about karate masters! Those strikes to the groin and eye gauges and etc are not legal if you do then its a fine! You are full of crap name some Gung-Fu masters and practioners for these examples! I never said that masters are invinciple ! you seem to have a problem with Gung-Fu! Nobody spoke of one strike for one kill! You are just crapping on now! Gung-Fu emphises on multiple strikes at the same time! You spend to much time watching Videos if you practice Jui-Jitsu you would no better then what you are speaking, I trained for seven years in Machado Brazilian Jui-Jitsu ! You have no respect !
You have nothing! If you want some lessons in Jui-Jitsu I can teach you any time for free since you like it so much!:cool:

[MA fanatic]

Sunstylin: You are either a kid, or have a great sense of humor. We're having a debate on a martial arts forum, and you challenge someone to a fight to the death at 5 in the morning (not mentioning city and state) like in the olden days of Okinawa and Japan. What kind of an adult does that? lol OK, so suppose you meet a forum member in a fight to the death lol with a witness, than kill him, don't you think you'll get a death penalty? Don't you think our legal system may not see this action as noble? lol I have never heard a 33 year old talk like a kid who watched way too many kung-fu (you killed my father 40 years ago and no I challenge you to avenge his death lol) movies. But, why not make it easy on yourself? You sound like a funny guy. You're probably even a good guy, just a little brain washed. Why not pay 30 bucks and sign up for a NHB competition? Something local, just to test your skills. If you can indeed break bones and shatter ribs, you should no problem taking out the local guys. Hell, you can even win some money. Depending upon where you live (your state), there are competitions every 3 months. Just see this: If you win, your name goes up in lights. You can win money. You can be invited to fight in larger events like Rings, King of the Cage, Pride, IFC, Hook and Shoot, etc. You can make all the traditional arts famouse again. You can make all the none believers, believers. You can open your own school and have all those NHB guys call you master.

Why spend time on challenging and killing forum people? lol Better yet, have your instructor fight and/or coach you. You see the problem here. No one from traditional schools ever steps into a legit ring. They make bazar statements and fony challenges which are always unaswered because they are rediculouse and elegal. We're in the year 2002 here. Had at least one legit master stepped into the ring and won (surelly even with 'no eye gouging rule' a master would have no problem breaking some floating ribs...surely traditional arts have more techniques to depend on besides eye gouging and biting), the same trust people put in these masters in the early days would return to them. People are losing trust and belief because they are on the most part, being let down. I have seen masters enter the NHB arena. Usually they are high ranking black belts from BJJ, Judo, Sambo (master of sport ranks), Greco Roman/Free Style Wrestlers (master of sport ranks), Professional Muay Thai fighters, some master level Kyokunshinkay guys with background in Judo (one such master won the Battle of the Masters tournament in Chicago...a Japanese Shidokan master with Judo and boxing experience) and people who have spent years mastering the arts of Shooto and Pancration. Yes, thouse I have seen. I have yet to see Kung Fu masters, Okinawan Karate Masters, more Japanese karate masters, Indonesian Penkak Silat masters, etc. etc. display their skills against a cross trained fighter.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

I just read your response to my posts. You have to be a kid. You talk like a kid. lol I can't stop laughing reading what you wrote. So you trained for several years with the Mochados? Who was your teacher? What is your rank? Where did you train? Which location? lol I doubt it. But, ok I have no way of proving or disproving that. First of all, in order for me to begin listing names of masters or kung fu practitioners who have competed in NHB events in the early days, I would have to pull out all the old flyers, advertisements and programs. I honestly have no desire to search through old boxes. Better yet, just name me a few masters who have successfuly competed in NHB, and we'll call it a day. Just name me one who had fought anyone in modern times (not some names of fighters who fought matches matches which took place in 1800s). Oh, better yet, why don't you tell me which style of Kung Fu you train in and your teacher's name (if he's famouse). Sounds like you know more about deadly techniques than I do so I would love to learn. Tell me, how is it that one shatters bones or uses his fists to break floating ribs (actually quickest way of doing that is the elbow, and yes wrists can be broken even with a deadly fist lol)? I'm just not clear on that. I thought that after several years of grappling and kickboxing, I would have a pretty solid punch and know something about joint manipulations. I'm always willing to learn. As for video training, you're right, I do own a lot of videos, but I have been training for over 16 years with live and breathing individuals (yes they're breathing, none of my deadly strikes have worked). As for me having something agaisnt Kung Fu, not at all. I studied Wing Chun for 4 years. Still have friends who train in Hung Gar and Choy Lay Fut. We get together and exchange ideas all the time. As for the guy you mentioned who competes in Kung Fu and Kick Boxing, I can believe that. There have been numerous Kung Fu fighters who have successfully competed in Kick Boxing, San Shou, and point fighting events. What does that have to do with our discussion? Why don't you tell us which style or master would indeed do well in an NHB type event without cross training? As for me wasting your time (since you're obviously a fighter not a typer) lol, dude this is the internet. You have the option of clicking me off.
MA fanatic

[Dark Knight]

"And if you think you can provide the challenge needed then meet me at Caringbah Cricket Pitch this Sunday at 5:00am, S.Teebas will be there as a witness, all you need is a long wooden box for yourself, I expect to see you there since you are quick to suggest fights! hehehehehehehehe You are a sucker!"

OK, your 16 at best

Stop living a Kung Fu movie life. get a clue.

As far as breaking wrist, boxers break hands and wrist inside of gloves, you can imagine the damage they would do to themselves if they didnt wear gloves.

Ad if you want to challenge someone, grow up.

Ill tell you what, I will answer you with a movie attitude.....

I WILL MEET YOU AT THE KOBRA KAI, WE WILL FIGHT AT SUNRISE, MY SECOND WILL BE THERE AS A WITNESS!!!!

TO THE DEATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sunstylin]

Where does it say fight to the death? You have still failed to name these so called Gun-Fu fighters, or is that bacause they do not exist! Why would they waste their time fighting nobodys anyway? Why? Because you are full of it! I sudied privately under Mick Spinks! I also NSW Super CruiserWeight Kickboxing champ, so I know that you dont break your wrist if it keeps straight! How is the elbow the quickest way? Your fist is longer then your elbow! You are a 15 year old kid who sits at home watching UFC and NHB videos thinking you know something! Name one well recognised boxer in these events! What tittle have they held? IBC? WBC? Please name these deadly techniques I spoke of! As for signing up in competitions and winning money, Idont need extra money thanx, Im well off financially!And stick to the topic this is about Gung-Fu masters not other masters! Why dont you ever answer my questions? Is it that you have no proof? Answer my questions! If you dont I will understand it is because you are full of it just like Rolls!:cool:

[sunstylin]

You said I need a sparing partner! Whats the matter? Are you scared? I expect to see you there since I need a real fighter and some heavy contact! That is what you said so show me what you are talking about! You have no idea ! I was NSW Super Cruiserweight champ and never broke my wrist, so I do not take you seriously, and will not unless you turn up for the fight since you think I need the experience!:cool:

[Ryu]

"I trained for seven years in Machado Brazilian Jui-Jitsu ! "

"I was NSW Super Cruiserweight champ "


LOL..... oh man....
So.......you've trained for SEVEN years in BJJ and were also a cruserweight champ in boxing and kickboxing? And...none of those arts let you break arms or hit the ribs?

Dark Knight and MA Fanatic, you guys are wasting your time.

Ryu

[Ryu]

Easy

"I sudied privately under Mick Spinks! I also NSW Super CruiserWeight Kickboxing champ, so I know that you dont break your wrist if it keeps straight! "

It's right up there on your posts.

Ryu

[Archangel]

sunstylin,

LMAO!!! Ryu busted you pretty badly. Anyways, I can give you a list of the Kung Fu fighters who fought in the UFC but first can you give me your definition of what a Kung Fu master is.

[sunstylin]

I will admit Im wrong if you can name some Wing Chun Gung-Fu masters who have entered these tournaments and got trashed! Anyone please answer! Unless UFC is a fight to the death you will never know the true Victor!!!:cool:

[Archangel]

first your definition of a master sunstylin

[sunstylin]

How did he bust me? Please explain! Someone who has mastered Gung-Fu who is well known and respected!

[Archangel]

Oh calm down you big baby, just busting your balls a bit. Anyways, can you give me an example of someone who fits your definition.

[sunstylin]

Easy hey! Yes kickboxing not boxing! Who names themself after a computer game character!

[sunstylin]

Rick Spain

[sunstylin]

Ryu if you agree with Ma Fanatic then name a Gung-Fu master who has been trashed in the UFC!

[Archangel]

- Well there was Rezra Nasri, an instructor under Emin Boztepe

- Jason Delucia, who now fights for Pancrase

- Scott Baker, Wing Chun

- Asbel Cancio, Wing Chun

- David Levicki, Wing Chun

- Thomas Ramirez, Packua Chan

[sunstylin]

what about them?:cool:

[Archangel]

Well those were the guys that fought in the UFC, I know they don't quite fit your definition of master but you have to remember neither were their oponents. The people that they fought were at the same level as they were (save Royce).

[sunstylin]

are they masters? or do they merely claim to be masters?

[Archangel]

I don't know if they claimed to be masters at all. They were however fighters who did step up to the plate for their styles and themselves. What are you insinuating? You have to be a master to be able to use the techniques Kung Fu.

[red_fists]

Questions?

1.) How old were those MA Master?
2.) How many Years of MA Study did they have?
3.) Do any WC Guys outside the USA & UFC Circuit recognise those names?
4.) Do their WC Sifu & Peers call them "Masters" and treat them as equals?

[Archangel]

I really don't think they claimed to be masters at all. The oponents that beat them certainly wern't "masters" in their styles either.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by Archangel
I really don't think they claimed to be masters at all. The oponents that beat them certainly wern't "masters" in their styles either.

And here exactly lies my problem with this whole arguments of TMA vs MMA.

There were a few TMA Guys that entered into those comps and lost, and now all of a sudden all TMA is useless and 90% of our techniques don't work, etc.
:(

Sorry, but those arguments sound a lot like marketing strategy to me.

Strange, how Millions of TMA practicioners are judged on the performance by maybe less than 10 People.
But they are refered to as "Gung Fu Masters" by some members on this Board.

But than I can also say that Muay Thai sucks as the one Student we got in my TCC Class gets his Butt kicked whenever he tries to use his 2yr Muay Thai on me or a similar level Student.

Is my 3yr TCC now so powerful to defeat all of Muay Thai Fighers or does his Muay Thai simply suck??

End of rant.

[jon]

Rick Spain, Jim Woo Koon, nsw kickboxing.
Your a Sydney boy, and one who is talking out of his ass at that!
Shut the hell up and stop futhering the poor reputation that our arts already have in the NHB rings.
Rick Spain was actualy invited to compete in UFC and turned it down becouse he was getting on in years and new well he would not be a match. He is also trained highly in BJJ and his own ma looks more like MMA now. I know this becouse my regular sparring partner is a student of Rick Spain.
You sound like a small child complaining becouse noone likes your opinion. Im a kung fu guy and i live in your city by the sounds of it, i dont think you have the first idea about real combat judging from your posts.

As to the whole 'traditional master' in the UFC.
You can sum this up easily and painlessly.
Groundfighting has basicaly been proven supperiour in one on one confrontations where weapons and group attacks are not a concern. Most CMA dont really have groundfighting as its not deemed an effective tactic in a STREET encounter or a battlefield one - due to weapons and muiltiple opponent concerns.
For a CMA to compete well in the UFC they will HAVE to cross train in ground fighting to be effective. At which point they cease being a Traditional master and become yet another MMA guy.

Man stop throwing around stupid challenges before one of us calls you!

[Archangel]

People that refer to them as Kung Fu masters are maybe a little mistaken. Yes maybe all of these Kung Fu fighters that fought were the worst of the bunch and all of the other 9 999 990 traditionalist out there would win in the UFC. That really isn't the point here, these were the fighters that were willing to step up to the plate and fight and I honestly respect them for that.

In analysing these fights you look for trends and you look for percentages. These fighters were probably training no differently than most of the traditionalists out there, so I do believe they represent a good portion of the TMA community at that time. They thought they didn't need to learn the ground, they could handle a takedown, they could handle a scramble; when none of them even bothered to learn the proper defences for them. Well a good a s s kicking is perhaps the best teacher since some of them have moved on and started to cross train. The forum is still open, If the other 10 million traditionalists want to change the percieved perceptions of them then why not enter???

"But than I can also say that Muay Thai sucks as the one Student we got in my TCC Class gets his Butt kicked whenever he tries to use his 2yr Muay Thai on me or a similar level Student."

Individual anecdotes are just that, individual. We have no way of verifying what each other says, so they are pretty much useless. That is why so many of us use MMA as an example, because of video tape it can be witnessed by all. But to answer your question; Muay Thai has more than proven itself in one on one combat. Whether it be K1, MMA, Shoot fighting and any other Full contact event ( Now San Shou has as well ). We know the techniques work because we have seen them work against 100% resisting individuals in full contact. Unfortunately I cannot say the same of alot of traditional techniques.

[red_fists]

Archangel.

I agree with you. But again I had to say that I see a lot of generalisation coming from the MMA Camps.

Like Jon said, a TMA starting to train outside his style to compete in UFC/Pride he has now become a MMA stylist and is not any longer a pure Traditionalist.

I know that each MA has produced some good Fighters that can handle themselves.

I got great respect for the Guys in the UFC & Pride, as well as any other MA stylist may it be Muay Thai, WC or whatever.

But again I say you cannot judge a TMA's abillity with a UFC/Pride/BJJ mindset.
Same way I cannot judge a UFC/Pride Fighter with a TMA mindset.

They are 2 different Games none better, none superor.
As both are designed around completely different circumstances for their applications.
As for why don't more TMA enter UFC/Pride:
Why don't more MMA Guys learn Knife fighting or Sky-Diving??

[Archangel]

"a TMA starting to train outside his style to compete in UFC/Pride he has now become a MMA stylist and is not any longer a pure Traditionalist."

Really Red I see nothing wrong with this. I know "MMA" is a dirty word among some traditionalist which is really a shame but I really do believe in the MMA training philosophy. Developing speed, power, timing, execution through real full contact competitions is a great foundation for any martial artists.

"I know that each MA has produced some good Fighters that can handle themselves"

I would have to say that any MA that stresses full contact and continually testing their methods can achieve this.

"But again I say you cannot judge a TMA's abillity with a UFC/Pride/BJJ mindset.
Same way I cannot judge a UFC/Pride Fighter with a TMA mindset."

Well I look at it this way, a TMA should not be just about vital point strikes and techniques to deadly to use in the ring. In order to use those "street techniques" an art should develop accuracy, speed, power, awareness and adaptability. What good is a "punch to the throat" technique if you cant even land a good punch to the chest. Or an eye jab if you can't even land a basic jab to the head.

Is MMA the answer for the street, H E L L no; There is still alot missing like scenario training, situational awareness and vital striking training however with the skills that are developed in the ring it should not be that difficult to make the adjustments.

"They are 2 different Games none better, none superor.
As both are designed around completely different circumstances for their applications"

Well MMA fighters do have an advantage here because we can actually test our techniques. I think that is my biggest caveat with TMA; the street lethal techniques found in your arts cannot be tested full speed against a 100% resisting oponent.

"Why don't more MMA Guys learn Knife fighting or Sky-Diving??'

Actually I've done both, I remember training with some Kali Guys a little while ago. While we were empty handed sparring (so I thought) I took a guy down and he wrapped me up in guard. While i was looking for a submission he pulled out a magic marker that he was hiding and wrote all over my favorite BJJ T-shirt. Yeah it opened my eyes.

I still do not understand why TMA do not compete in MMA. It should have been the best thing to happen to traditionals. A venue where you can do almost anything.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by Archangel

I still do not understand why TMA do not compete in MMA. It should have been the best thing to happen to traditionals. A venue where you can do almost anything.

I don't think it is really a matter of TMA, but rather of the type of people attracted to them.
I have seen many TMA Systems that do practice semi or full contact with few restrictions.

So I think it also really depends on the TMA Dojo/Style/Kwoon that the person
studies.

Kokushin KaraTe for example trains full-contact, with only a few attacks forbidden during sparring.
The Aikido Dojo where I study TCC sports new Blood stains on the Tatami every week.

[Dark Knight]

I leave the office early and everyone post.

Sun, come on out to Nevada and I will gladly fight with you.

So ask mom if you can borrow the keys and a couple dollars for gas.

I dont understand why TMA think cross training is so terrible. The origionaltors of the styles studied more than one before creating theirs. Also its not like your abndoning your style, jut adding to it.

There is no such thing as a one style fits all, the way your instructor fights may not work for you, as you go through your training you need to grow and expand your knowledge.

I have met great fighters in Kung Fu, TKD, Karate Ju-Jitsu... and I have met bad one from each style. The ones that were excellent fighters have done full contact fighting, they know what works and what does not.

Experience is the best teacher, go out and meet other people that have knowledge and train with them, keep to your base style but expand your knowledge.

[MA fanatic]

Sunstylin:
You crack me up. Lets hear what style of Kung Fu you train in. Who do you consider a true master? lol I'm sure you don't know. Without mentioning names, most of you know who he is, a well known Wing Chun grandaster was challenged and taken to the ground by a wrestler in the middle of his own seminar. How do you explain that? I'm sure many know who I'm talking about. It happened in the grandmaster's prime in the mid 80s. There have been numerous kung fu guys who got trashed by grapplers and cross trained fighers. Sunstylin, you need to either grow up, or wise up. You sound like a highschool kid.
MA fanatic

[jon]

MA fanatic
The incident your aluding to was fought by two wing chun practioners. Its pretty difficault to use that as a style vs style example considering both men were of the same school.
The 'winner' had however trained in groundfighting as well as WC. I guess maybe that makes him a MMA?
Ive heard to pleanty of cases of wrestlers being flawed by stand up fighters from the first punch. Ive seen it happen myself, following your own rational doesnt that make stand up supperiour?
Or maybe it really does depend on the situation at hand and even being a 'grandmaster' wont make you immune to underhand tactics and pre meditated assults.
You speak as though this WC 'grandmaster' should be totaly unbeatable and the idea of him going to the ground or ever losing means he cant use his own arts.
I would beg to disagree and also to state no human is perfect.


Try swinging this the other way and see if it still works?
Can you name any countrys who are using BJJ or MMA in there military training?
Can you name any security company or bodygaurd firm who employs UFC fighters?
Has BJJ or MMA ever proven itself on the battlefield in war time?
Why do no MMA fighters of the UFC ever go to China or Taiwan and compete in there numerous NHB tournaments?

Do you see what im trying to say here?
There both different skills, both related sure but still very different animals.
I dont knock you UFC guys so i fail to see why you guys are constantly having shots at any art that claims a Chinese heritage( edit.. yeah yeah stupid statement i know:p).
Like as if somehow this proves that no one in China has the first idea about combat:rolleyes:. Im sure the Chinese also have seen haymakers windmills wrestling weapons... What makes you think that they would not have these things to deal with, by that rational how can you think none of there proven arts are up to your tasks?

[MA fanatic]

Jon:
You need to reread all the posts. This is not an argument to bash any traditional stylist or style. As a matter of fact, bjj, by all definitions is a traditional martial art (along with Sambo, Pankration...which is as old as kung fu, Judo and even Greco Roman wrestling). Of course all people are human. Of course even the best Gracie can lose on the street. NHB competitors are modern day Gladiators and/or prize fighters. Though they would fair well on the street, most NHB fighters see themselves as athletes not street thugs or street fighters. The reason I brought in the incident of a grandmaster being taken to the ground, was because of some people's beliefs that a "true master" could not lose to a grappler or cross trained fighter. Any Kung Fu grandmaster is not the figure painted in movies. Just like any BJJ master is also not unbeatable. As for UFC fighters working as bouncers, I don't know enough about their personal lives to tell you. I know that Igor Zinoviev now works as head of security in the largest NY night club. Most UFC fighters actually operate their own schools. I do know many NHB competitors with backgrounds in Muay Thai, Shooto, JKD, and BJJ who work as security and bouncers. But, they do that because of flexible hours, decent pay...in some locations, and because it allows them more time to train (most I know train 5 hours a day). As for grapplers losing to strikers, that has happened many times. This debate was not Kung Fu vs MMA. It was an amusing argument with some kid posing as an adult trying to convey that should UFC send in a real Kung Fu masters, ribs would be crushed, limbs broken, etc. etc. No art is perfect. Even bjj has it's limmitations (though it is used now in the US millitart...recently there was even a show about on the A&E station about that...police are cross training in ground fighting all the time...and Russian had been using combat version of Sambo for decades to train special forces.)
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

It is painfully obvious to all of us that you are a kid. How? Wait until you grow up a bit and you'll see. You talk like a child, you think like a child, and you act like a child. The reason I am responding to your silly posts (and I am pretty sure that I am not the only one who thinks this way), is because at the end of a hard day at work, it amuses me. I'm laughing at you, not with you. Your silly challenges, your lack of knowledge about any aspect of combat is nothing more than comical. So far you have challenged people on the forum to death matches (asking them to bring witnesses and wooden boxes at 5:00am LMAO), offering me tips in BJJ (of which you know none), and claiming to have been trained by some top fighters (only to make errors in discussing the mechanics of a punch). You almost floored me with accusations that all I do is watch NHB fights on video. I can't recall laughing harder. Thanks. This week had been rough at work, and reading your funny posts helped me cope with some stress. I think I will take you up on the challenge offer. We can meet when ever you have a free period in school. I'll make sure to bring a witness and a wooden box just in case you shatter my floating rib with one of your unbreakable fists. You make sure to bring a note from a parent.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

I don't think anyone is argueing the effectiveness of traditional martial arts vs. mma. The argument began with people making statements pertaining to the quality of fighters who enter the UFC type events and true martial arts masters. Some have made unsubstantial claims that should a true master enter the NHB arena, all NHB fighters beware. That is simply false. IT was also clear by some people's posts that they have never seen nhb events or were familiar with NHB rules. It was also painfully obvious that many who began posting claims of their art's deadliness and the ease with which traditional masters would handle well trained MMA competitors, have themselves never fought full contact or cross trained. The argument was not tradition VS. NHB/MMA. As for masters in NHB, we'll never see top name traditional stylists enter. We will always see top level master grapplers enter (keep in mind that bjj, JKD, pankration, judo, sambo, muay thai, are all traditional martial arts) because they fight like they train and train like they fight. Students also train with contested techniques and don't fake their way through class whether they're feeling tired or not. As for NHB fighters competing in China, China doesn't have NHB events. If it did, like Japan, Brazil, and Russia does, we would see American NHB fighters compete in China as well. China and Korea simply have no NHB events. So, why doesn't a master of Kung Fu from China, or a master of Penkak Silat from Indonesia, or a master of Okinawan Karate from Okinawa, or a master for TKD, Hapkido, Kuk Sool, Hwarang-do from Korea, come down and teach the NHB world a thing or two. They wont because they can't. Those who thought they could, tried. Some were successfull, and some were not. All fighters come from traditional background who compete in NHB. All techniques they utilize have been used for hundreds of years on battle fields. MMA fighters didn't envent the armbars, chokes, joint manipulations, leg locks, punches, kicks, throws, etc.
Helio Gracie when creating Gracie JJ, had taken techniques from traditional JJ. MMA fighters just narrowed down techniques which have a high precentage success rate.
MA fanatic

[jon]

MA fanatic
Nice post im in total agreement with everything you just said, thank you also for pointing out incidences of BJJ or MMA fighters also working in the security field. The point with my arguement was not really aimed at you so much specificaly even though the post was titled to you personaly (bad habbit of mine). I was just pointing out that CMA have been used time and time again under these circumstances and that is one proving ground i do believe in as its an avenue where skills are tested under differing enviorments and with different needs. I do also believe in UFC as a venue its just not something i personaly would be interested in (mainly becouse i would lose most painfully :p) still i try not to begrudge others who are made of stronger metal than me.
Still thanks for your post you back your arguements up well and have the whole way though this thread.
I have a hunch i live in the same city as our friend and ive said previously i question both his experience and his right to be speaking in the way he is.

All the best and thanks for the well written reply :)

P.S there are NHB tournaments in China and particauly its surrounding countrys. There certainly harder to find and dont hold the same prize money but they are there never the less.
lol although i cant really see the PRC giving them full govenment support if you get my drift :)

[MA fanatic]

Jon, I didn't see your post as anything personal directed toward me. As a matter of fact, I just use this time early in the morning to relax before a long day at the hospital where I work. I see these threads as nothing but pure entertainment. After I post, I generally get my running in and head off to work. As for Sunstylin, that kid just cracks me up. I don't think he realizes it, but he's a goods tress releaser. lol See you.
MA fanatic

[jon]

Hi MA fanatic
Im a similar way myself with the many trolls and fool i encounter on a regular basis. I think Sunstyling has done his research from watching old Jet Li flicks and the local phone book i find his arguements rather humerous as well, if they werent so darn damaging to the reputation of those of us who do make cma our personal combat method and practice dilligently.
The funny flip side is most real kf fighters are quite respectfull of anyone who is willing to put there ass on the line to test there art. Not all are willing to fight for money or in public but i know many who will happily cross hands for the experience and learning with anyone who is geniunie and not out for ego.

Sunwhatever is just some kid who has seen to many kung fu movies and is now bitter at the idea that other people do things in a different way.
Fighting is like that though, you can never make people play by your rules though you always like to try.
Sunbrain hasnt figured out that not everyone will attack him with a crane fist and many will simply crash tackle him like a football player (specialy in Sydney, darn Rugby League). Life is a bummer when you figure out that you cant freeze time like the matrix. Let him down gently, we dont want him doing a bolt or anything ;)

Ok that was my little night night time to sleepybye post, all the best :)
Jon

[jon]

Originally posted by MA fanatic
I don't think anyone is argueing the effectiveness of traditional martial arts vs. mma. The argument began with people making statements pertaining to the quality of fighters who enter the UFC type events and true martial arts masters. Some have made unsubstantial claims that should a true master enter the NHB arena, all NHB fighters beware. That is simply false. IT was also clear by some people's posts that they have never seen nhb events or were familiar with NHB rules. It was also painfully obvious that many who began posting claims of their art's deadliness and the ease with which traditional masters would handle well trained MMA competitors, have themselves never fought full contact or cross trained. The argument was not tradition VS. NHB/MMA. As for masters in NHB, we'll never see top name traditional stylists enter. We will always see top level master grapplers enter (keep in mind that bjj, JKD, pankration, judo, sambo, muay thai, are all traditional martial arts) because they fight like they train and train like they fight. Students also train with contested techniques and don't fake their way through class whether they're feeling tired or not. As for NHB fighters competing in China, China doesn't have NHB events. If it did, like Japan, Brazil, and Russia does, we would see American NHB fighters compete in China as well. China and Korea simply have no NHB events. So, why doesn't a master of Kung Fu from China, or a master of Penkak Silat from Indonesia, or a master of Okinawan Karate from Okinawa, or a master for TKD, Hapkido, Kuk Sool, Hwarang-do from Korea, come down and teach the NHB world a thing or two. They wont because they can't. Those who thought they could, tried. Some were successfull, and some were not. All fighters come from traditional background who compete in NHB. All techniques they utilize have been used for hundreds of years on battle fields. MMA fighters didn't envent the armbars, chokes, joint manipulations, leg locks, punches, kicks, throws, etc.
Helio Gracie when creating Gracie JJ, had taken techniques from traditional JJ. MMA fighters just narrowed down techniques which have a high precentage success rate.
MA fanatic

* This is a really good post and would make a great topic for debate on the main forum. You should edit it a little so that it no longer pertains to this thread and post it on the main board. You may create an interesting discussion.
Just an idea anyway :)

[jun_erh]

to me alot of UFC is just self indulgent. Like a BJJ version of pushing hands/ sticking hands practice. Like when Frank Shamrock fought Gracie. They just hugged for twenty minutes. Either one of them had ample oppurtunity to bite, rake, or otherwise get out of the situation but they just lay there "testing their skill" to my eternal boredom

[MA fanatic]

Jon:
Thank you for complimenting my post. lol Tell me which part of it you enjoyed, and I will be glad to expand on any topic.

Jun:
You made a good point. The Ken Shamrock Vs. Royce Gracie Superfight was a snooz fest. That fight had been criticized by all mma competitors for years. I'm not sure if you're familiar with grappling, you don't sound like you are. Keep in mind that Royce gave up a lot of weight to Ken, and really needed Ken to attempt a technique to exicute a reversal from the guard and/or submission. Rest assured that had this been a street fight with an individual unfamiliar with grappling, neither Royce nor Ken would be in the guard for longer than 30 seconds. Most fighters unfamiliar with guard submissions and reversals (like traditional stylists and or street fighters) would have been tapped, KOd or thrown from the guard. I suggest, take some bjj and/or submission grappling classes and see for yourself. Before I studied grappling I was skeptical as to the effectiveness of laying between someone's legs, and/or having an apponent lay between yours. I quickly learned that against a competent grappler, you'll be flying through the air or tapping in seconds. As for eye jabs, rakes, groin attacks, small joint manipulations, those techniques are overrated. They're not as effective and/or simple to exicute as some may think. I have also seen grapplers get eye gouged, struck in the throat and groin, only to keep fighting. I have seen grapplers continue fighting with broken ribs, fingers and wrists. Also, I would not want to enter an NHB event where grapplers are permitted to use such tactics. I'm afraid what the traditional fighters consider as techniques to be used against bjj, are techniques which can in fact cause them a great deal of pain. Grapplers have an extensive knowledge of pressure points, eye rakes, groin pulls, fingers locks, and throat strikes. These techniques will not surprise or defeat a good grappler.
MA fanatic

[jun_erh]

MA Fanatic:

I don't think I have or would ever use those tactics (eye gouging, etc) it's just that many of the pro ju jitsu arguements seem to be that you should go down and wrestle with them. To me, that's ridicoulous. If someone trains grappling, why would I want them to use it?? They'd win. See, I reallyt am the grandmaster of the obvious. I think the lack of "street reality" whatever of Jujistsu is made up for by the general hands on ness of the training in the style. Obviously, it's pretty hard to use collegiate wrestling moves on pavement or whatever, but there's alot of sparring in the training, so it compensates just in terms of experiance. I have a friend who studies BJJ and also Aikido iss half my size and could destroy me easily. Alot of that is internal too, he has anger and energy that I really don't have.

Also, what do you think of the whole "street/reality" arguement. I have problems with it. I mean boxers have gloves, I don't think of them as wimpy. I think the karate thing is lame, from what I understand, they pull their punches, at least the ones to the head, that is an unhealthy habit. It's a genuinly complex issue I think.

I said once before, all styles of martial arts are very limited in some ways, which is a very good thing.

[sunstylin]

You are very confused my whole arguement surounds your statements about kung-fu masters entering the UFC which has not happened! And you can still not prove this ! This is my only arguement hear! And you have not proveded any useful information to do with that topic specifically! I want to know who these Masters are who fought in the UFC, that is what you said now provide the details!:cool:

[sunstylin]

Im glad that Im a good stress releaver I found this very good for stress releif too! I have been laughing my arse off the whole time ! Thanx to everyone for replying! :cool:
P.S. Jon; I don't recall mentioning Mick Spinks, what are you talking about????

[Ryu]

Who here has used eye gouges and biting in real street fights?
I have. Before I knew grappling I used them. Biting for me actually worked against a wrestler and got him off me (but the fight was broken up and he would have killed me if he took me down again)
The eye gouging got me pummeled from mount. These fights were before my knowledge in grappling and I consider them "losses".

My other fights after being competent in grappling all happened on concrete and tile floors. I used grappling in each, and it was the opponent's who tasted the floor, not myself.

The street reality question is getting to be almost a fallacy, and I'm a little disappointed in it. Being athletic is the ONLY way to have some kind of confidence that you'll be able to hang in a real fight. It zaps your energy like crazy. I say this from experience, not books.

I have grappled on concrete, I have grappled in real fights on concrete against two people, and I have bitten people for real in real fights, and I have eyegouged people for real as well.
Let me tell you this too. If you're not committed to permenently blind your opponent for life, the eye gouge will just **** them off.
Do you really have what it takes to blind someone for life? Have you done it before? What makes you think you can?

This isn't directed to anyone. I just wanted to put it out there because "street reality" is what I train for... and a good portion of my training is athletic and with 100% resisting opponents.

Ryu

[sunstylin]

My comments maybe general but your little brains understand this way and I stick to my point of arguement that Wing Chun Kung-Fu masters have nevered entered the UFC which is what Im bloody argueing about although alot of people have gone way, way, way off topic! So can you provide this information MA Fantic or do you submitt?
MMMMMMMMMM BEEEEERRRR! :cool:

[sunstylin]

Where is your proof I am waiting! You have proved yourself very knowledgeable, I commend you! But where the hell is your backup for this entire arguement? Hello? What Kung-Fu masters have fought in the UFC? This is what you said now come on answer it for me! I guess you were just full of crap!:cool:
A few tinnies short of a six pack I beleave!

[sunstylin]

I have been in streetfights but never used bites or eyegauges in them, nor do I sugest that you go into a streetfight useing them as a strategy you can talk about fighting all you like and say I would do this or I would do that but when it comes down to it you are better off using instinct in a streetfight and the techniques you are best aquinted with and practice! Yes Jui-Jitsu can be highly effective I should know but I wouldnt use it on its own on the street , you would be better off cross training! Especially when confronted with multiple attackers, you really dont want to go to the ground!:cool:

[Ryu]

All that means is that I've been in worse streetfights then you.
I've grappled against multiple opponents before and won. I'm a cross trained fighter. My "style" is MMA and JKD, where have you been?
As far as instincts go. Your training should BE instinctual. I don't have to "think" anymore of what to do. My body just does it naturally. So it's probably safe to say I'm somewhat of a decent fighter already. ;)

Oh and by the way, here is your kung fu master
Grand Master Ron Van Clief has been studying and teaching the Martial Arts for over 40 years. He has appeared internationally on television and radio demonstrating his art, as well as at many colleges and universities lecturing on the subject. He holds a black belt or the equivalent in Karate, Ju-Jitsu, Aiki-Jitsu, Kung-Fu and Arnis de Mano and Zen Jutsu. Further he is a master of the Sword, Sai, Nunchaku and other martial arts weapons
Grand Master Van Clief is a 10th Degree Red Belt and founder of the Chinese Goju System. Shidoshi Van Clief has established more than 25 schools in over 18 countries. He has appeared, or starred in more than forty motion pictures, made appearances as a stunt man, served as a policeman in New York, and a former United States Marine. Shidoshi Van Clief, is formely commissioner of the World Contact Karate League.

Shidoshi Van Clief continues to share his knowledge with his disciples, particularily during competitions. He has competed in more than 900 tournaments during forty years of international competition. He retired as an 8 times U.S. Champion, and most notable, he's a 5 times World Champion.


But I'm sure he doesn't do "real" kung fu, right? :rolleyes:

Ryu

[sunstylin]

I think Wing Chun is more efficient system to BJJ, it focuses on relaxation, simplicity, efficiency, and practicality! Which is most importent in a streetfight ! They train to fight for survival not to win in the ring or octagon where you are most often talking about! Oh yeah almost forgot! Who are these Kung-Fu masters who have fought in the UFC? Who are the Wing Chun Masters who fought in the UFC? You are full of it!:cool:
BRING ON THE CASE HE DOES NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION SO I DO NOT TAKE THIS SERIOUS! Another BEEER!:cool:

[sunstylin]

Do their fellow Kung-fu practioners recognise them as Masters?
MORE BEER, MORE BEER, MORE BEER! :cool: :o

[Ryu]

I think sunstylin is actually trying to HURT the reputation of Kung Fu on this forum. No one makes his arguments anymore, it reeks of trollish tendencies. His real goal is to make kung fu look bad and unrealistic.

I almost fell for it.

Ryu

[sunstylin]

Are you telling me he fought in the UFC? WEll no it doesnt say that you have been in more serious fights than me, but I do not talk about details of streetfights that I have been in! Anyway I most probably wouldnt be beleaved as Im 33 and most seem to think Im 13 or something because I wont go into more detail! I find argueing on the net very futile!:cool:
So where is the challenge? GIVE ME MORE BEER!

[sunstylin]

I think it is obvious that people have lost the point that this was about Kung-Fu masters in the UFC, Not NHB!

[Ryu]

He fought in UFC 4 with Royce Gracie. He was taken down in the first couple seconds of the fight, mounted for a couple minutes taking strikes, and finally submitted to Royce's choke.

:cool: Fair enough, you don't have to give info out. It's probably dumb to do so anyway.
Gotta clean my house...so no more fun posts. Later.



Ryu

[Ryu]

Ron Van Clief was a "master" in the UFC

[sunstylin]

And he does Wing Chun? Im not argueing over techniques or trying to make any style look bad just wanted to know the Wing Chun Masters that MA Fanatic talked about! Thank you for giving me a anwser it is much apreciated this is what Ive been talking about all along! Yet noone has been even able to supply a kung-fu master until now! Now I set the task of a Wing Chun Master being named that fought in the UFC as stated by MA Fanatic!:cool:
Computer game freak hey? :cool:

[Archangel]

sunstylin,

Rezra Nasri was an intructor under Emin Boztepe, remember the guy who beat up William Cheung. He fought against Brian Johnston and was grounded and pounded.

[Dark Knight]

"Anyway I most probably wouldnt be beleaved as Im 33 and most seem to think Im 13 or something because I wont go into more detail! "

We know you are a kid because of the stupid imature remarks you make. You claim to have done BJJ for 7 years and be a kickboxing champion.


rrrriiiiiggghhhtttt

I take it your mom will not give you the keays to the car.

[sunstylin]

Where were you on sunday? If Im a kid and you know that then you should have been there!Or is it that you really know that Im 33!:cool:

[sunstylin]

Yes we are all familiar with the Leung Ting and William Cheung rival. And Im not about to back up William Cheung after he made claims to knowing Wing Chun secrets that only he knew and noone else that were taught to him by his master, then changes to him learning it off Triads!:cool:

[sunstylin]

The question was about Kung-Fu and Wing Chun masters in the UFC, dont generalize the question by draging it out into all NHB, and Wing Chun rivals!:cool:
Sobering up now, big weekend! :cool:

[red_fists]

Hey Guys.

Great work, keep posting. I need those smiles while at the Office.

As for trying to ascertain any facts about anybody online. Good luck, you will need plenty of it.

What you see here on the Boards and in the profiles is Stuff entered by somebody, and there is no way to verify the validity of that Information.

But the writing style of a person can be very indicative as to his age, knowledge and personality.

Have fun Guys.

[red_fists]

As for judging any style or MA according to a few entrants in a competition.

Again you will need good luck.
Why??
Simply it is not always the best that enter Competitions.

Look at Beauty pageants, do you really think that the prettiest woman enter there. Hah, guess again.

Or that the best Fighters are all in the ring??

Just something to think about.

[jon]

sunstylin
* I cant name 'masters' as most wont compete in public as it could bring disrepute on there arts. The problem as MA Fanatic has already pointed out is that no one is using traditional kung fu within the UFC. You can draw your own conclusions from that but needless to say most of the NHB fighters draw the conclusion that we dont becouse we cant. What is needed is a few more Chinese stylists to cross train a little and actualy train for competion, if for no other reason than simply to bring the arts into the public eye.
You are now trying to centre your arguement around the idea that no 'kung fu masters' have competed in the UFC so there by that means Kung Fu has not been defeated, My argument obviously would be that we havent really won anything public in while either.
San Shao is finaly starting to bring some sporting attension to the Chinese arts as its an excerelent stand up art and has been adapted to the ring. This is the kind of thing more of us need to be doing as it gives us a venue to test skills and give our arts a more public face with corporate sponsorship and media personalitys. My sifu is as traditional as they come and teaches Bagua and Tai Chi as a combat art but he is trying to do just what im talking about.
Get more Traditional artists out in the ring and showing what they do.

I know what MA Fanatic is going to say and its REALLY obvious, if we were SO confident we could beat all of the UFC crowd with one hand behind our back then someone would have done it by now. Back in China the old masters where always happy to show there arts or fight to prove it was a valid defence system. Now for some reason we all pretend that we not allowed to fight or something, but oh our ancestors 'they were killers'!

Go back to troll school and get some lessons, there are so many much more skilled trolls on this board. You pale in comparison to Ralek or Ego or Tryan.
Sheesh if your gonna do it do it in style!

Obviously Chinese martial artists dont compete in the UFC becouse we simply dont like getting our silk dirty:p

[Archangel]

sunstylin

Well then there you go, I gave you a name of a fighter whos lineage you recognized. There's your "master" who fought in the UFC.

[sunstylin]

Read the posts from the start I have been doing this the whole way through!:cool:

[sunstylin]

That was very good of you nameing a master which noone has been able to do, although this was MA Fanatics question for saying that Wing Chun and Gung-Fu masters competed in the UFC and got trashed! NOBODY WOULD EVEN BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION IF MA FANATIC DIDNT MAKE UP CRAP!:cool: Of cause you can assume what you want from what people say but I havent even begun to disscuss this issue due to failure of names being presented on MA Fanatics behalf!:cool: Im still waiting for you to reply MA Fanatic! Answer my questions and I will begin disscussing more indepth!:cool:
Do not judge a book by its cover, for when you open it, you will find a world of resources hidden inside! :cool:

[sunstylin]

I mean no disrespect to the master , but he is hardly well respected in the Gun-Fu community, Did he complete learning the forms? How long did he spend training the forms? It is very easy to pick holes in an arguement! Now answer MA Fantics question on Wing Chun masters in UFC, aparently there have been several!:cool:

[sunstylin]

Did I say that was the only way to win UFC? No !

[jon]

sunstylin

"he is hardly well respected in the Gun-Fu community"
* How do you know?

"Did he complete learning the forms?"
* How many Wing Chun instructors do you know who have not compleated the forms?

"How long did he spend training the forms?"
* Obviously long enough for Emin Boztape to allow him to teach under Emins name and long enough for Emin to allow him to compete in his name as well.

"I mean no disrespect to the master"
* Yet you believe he would have an untrained low level student both teach and fight in public under his name... uh huh!

"It is very easy to pick holes in an arguement!"
* Actualy doing it well is quite difficault all your doing is futher proving to everybody just how far you have deluded yourself..
ohhhhh knowing all the Wing Chun forms must make you GOOD...
My sparring partner knows all the forms under sifu Rick Spain, ill tell you right now he aint perfect. Not only that but he like Rick only do forms for basics practice and structure. They actualy spar when they want to fight... funny that!


You know what...
I havent seen Chung Mo Do or Shaolin Do in the UFC either, nor have i seen Tae Bo or Boxercise. I guess there all undefeated in the UFC as well.

Keep em comming Sunstylin, your a great laugh :D

[sunstylin]

Rub tiger balm on your genitals hey, well that is crap, nobody does that! Leung Ting is supirior and has anti crappling in advanced forms, it just shows the superior WC school if one of his students take out a master! Jon instructers are not masters you clearly do not understand the difference!
If BJJ is as good as you say it is why not go and challenge Leung Ting or Jim Fung and prove its greatnest!
I have succeeded in making you angry Jon because you have wasted your time replying to a kid!(as you claim I am)
:cool:

[sunstylin]

If BJJ is ancient and great why did no BJJ challenge WSL, or Yip Man????????????????? :cool:

Im here to talk kung fu!:cool:

[sunstylin]

A true WC practioner only learns more when they have perfected what they know!

[Ryu]

It did. And it won! :confused:

Where have you been?
They had BJJ rooftop challenges all the time in Rio. Yip once went there on a boat and fought those challenges. He lost for the first time in Rio. Everyone knows that!

:rolleyes: geez, some people...

[sunstylin]

Come on keep em coming!

[sunstylin]

But not WSL hey?????? :cool:

[Ryu]

No, it's true. Really.
I'm surprised you didn't know. Ask jon, he knows. I'm sure Old Jong knows, Jas, even Watchman knew.


BTW, what happened to your vacation? :D
I thought you were leaving?

[sunstylin]

Royce Gracie was not able to continue fighting after that match! :cool:
Victory to WC WSL was undefeated and no BJJ practinioner challenged him because WC is Superior!:cool:

[sunstylin]

Soon very soon! Im just having some fun first!LOL

[sunstylin]

Advanced levels of Wing Chun have anti grapling, pressure points, Qi merridians, forward force, ultimate force etc How do you expect BJJ to compete with this?????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????? Pressure points are not allowed in the UFC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!
WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE KIDDING, what your a word analyst are you now Jon , excuse me Detective Jon!LOL:cool:
That is pathetic! Please come again! I enjoy this so!:cool:

[jon]

Regarding the Yip Man Rio Rooftop challenges, they certainly did happen. Infact it was Royces Great grandfather who fought and he took poor Yip Man to the ground and then put a triangle choke on him. Yip Man tried to bong sau and counter with a chain punch but he slipped into uncontiousness before he could actualy apply his idea. This fight is well known in Wing Chun circles and is the very reason why all WC schools now contain choke defences. Infact the form Bil Jee was invented to counter grapplers and give the Wing Chun practioner one last chance and getting in his eye poke or chain punch.


BTW just so you realise this TINY little peice of vital information, when your trying to prove that Kung Fu is effective vs other styles its important to try and use examples when kung fu has actualy beaten someone who was not themselfs a kung fu practioner. The problem with citing storys about your kung fu ancestors or Rooftop fights in the fiftys in Hong Kong is that only kung fu practioners actualy competed.

You might want to try and calm down a little as well, yelling at the montior and constantly filling the screen with exclamtion marks and question marks is not exactly helping your cause.
See how nice i am? Im trolling a troll and at the same time offering advice :D

[jon]

Sun
You asked me how to condition your gentials and i gave you the best and most proven method known to all of us in Chinese martial arts.
Rub Tiger Balm on your genitals!
If you dont want a conditioned groin there fair enough dont do it, otherwise its the only way.
Ask anyone here, Tigerbalm and groins are a wonderfull mix:D

Try it - TRUST ME!!!

[chingei]

Originally posted by sunstylin
I never said it was easy to apply those strikes nor did my instructer where did I say that? You no nothing about me! Im no high school kid! Im 33 years old you idiot! And if you think you can provide the challenge needed then meet me at Caringbah Cricket Pitch this Sunday at 5:00am, S.Teebas will be there as a witness, all you need is a long wooden box for yourself, I expect to see you there since you are quick to suggest fights! hehehehehehehehe You are a sucker!:cool:



hahahahahahahaha
what an A-hole!