the definition of fa-jing

[Zantesuken]

okay i'm sure every chinese tai chi master i've met which is about 3 or 4 have said "faht ging". this basicaly means to generate power. when i see people post about fa-jing the most widely accepted definition is erle montigue's. while he's not wrong that's no the only side to it either. for instance you use your head, hands, shoulders, eblows, hips, knees, and the bottom of the feet to fa-jing to generate power. the only thing is that one sifu explained to me is the translation problem. a lot of people learning any type of martial arts at higher levels will have trouble because the translations will never be the same. for example a chinese poem if translated would sound weird in english and not have it's original power. the same goes for a very complicated english poem with puns and other gadgets. so i was wondering what everyone's opinion on fajing is then. to me i guess it basically means to generate power. it's a very broad term cause i hear it used a lot around here.

[EARTH DRAGON]

If I may I would like to explain fajing in a way most people would find easy to understand.

A bullwip............ you flick the wrist and send kinetic energy through a limp piece of leather.

This energy gains momentum as it travels to the tip of the whip enough so that it breaks the speed of sound, thus the "crack sound"............ this is fajing........

The trick is to alow your body to be relaxed so that you do not resrtric the energy passing through the body and then expell that energy to the hand or fist. I hope this helps... your freind ED

[miscjinx]

The bullwhip and cracking example is one type of fajing...particularly seen in White Crane or the tai chi as taught by Dr. Yang Jwing-ming.

[Sam Wiley]

Originally posted by Zantesuken
the most widely accepted definition is erle montigue's. while he's not wrong that's no the only side to it either. for instance you use your head, hands, shoulders, eblows, hips, knees, and the bottom of the feet to fa-jing to generate power.

That IS Erle Montaigue's definition. The movement of the waist is talked about too much and too many people act as if that's all he ever talks about but it is not. If you ask him to describe fa-jing, he will tell you what is in the Classics, and his method does fit that description.

[Zantesuken]

really? cause i remember you said something like it's meant to cause people to die inside. it was on his site!

[Sam Wiley]

Originally posted by Zantesuken
really? cause i remember you said something like it's meant to cause people to die inside. it was on his site!

Taiji was invented to kill people with a light to medium strike. The way this is accomplished is with fa-jing. Fa-jing sends a vibration from the dantien out through the peripherals of the body, like a ripple effect when you throw a stone into a pond. In fact, it sometimes looks like this, especially with whipping strikes like a percussive/oxtongue palm. There are many descriptions people use to talk about the power of fa-jing. Some call it a shockwave, and I believe that is about as accurate as you can get. The vibration or "wave" travels from the dantien through the peripherals and is transferred to the other person. This is a bit like one moving pool ball striking another. The first ball comes to a stop as the kinetic energy is transferred into the next ball, which goes from sitting still to moving. This shockwave can affect the energy system within another person's body, creating imbalances, illnesses, pain, etc. If this shockwave is transferred into another person's body at a point with a lower resistance to energy input (an acupuncture point), then specific effects can be obtained, such as imblances between specific organs, the creation of specific diseases, mental or spiritual degradation, etc. Certain of these points affect the body severely without this shockwave being transferred, and with the energy being transferred the effects become even more severe. Some points which affect the heart and cause a ko with a medium powered strike might now cause death. Illnesses caused with purely physical strikes that were before temporary or dissipating, might now become worse over time instead unless treatment is sought out to correct the specific problem. The energy from fa-jing explodes inside the person like a bomb to cause this damage and seep into their system. Reminds me of the scene from House where they shove the grenade inside the zombie's ribs and he explodes. I hit someone in the chest once with Ji, full power, and he doubled over in pain. He said it felt like a ball of fire had been planted inside his chest. It got worse and worse for a minute or so, and finally began to dissipate. He has heart trouble now, though, with frequent chest pains. He did not before.

So yes, fa-jing is used to kill people. Those who claim to demonstrate "real" fa-jing by throwing people across the room, for instance, are simply demonstrating parlor tricks done through the use of proper leverage. People who are struck with real fa-jing do not go flying, they drop.

Now here's where I make enemies:

The part about fa-jing that is most often disputed is the generation method. Erle's method for generating fa-jing is often called into question because it does not jive with what other perhaps more famous masters have described, in many people's opinion. What I was told when I first began learning fa-jing was that there was only one generation method which was applied to many movements. I had no trouble doing any movement as fa-jing once I learned how it was done. (Though my fa-jing has become more refined and more subtle.) Since then, I have heard a great many people talk about how there are so many kinds of jings and how they can't get a handle on this one or that one, and that they have to get them right before they can learn fa-jing. The truth is that there is only one jing. Period. If you want to express it explosively, you do so, and it is called fa-jing. One of the problems behind this phenomenon of people not being able to grasp what should be simple concepts is that they are willing to fall for the trap, and have their minds cluttered with so much useless information. Why they are accepting of this, I don't know and it saddens me to see people unable to grasp the basics. Second on my list as to why people cannot grasp the basics is because their teachers either don't want them to or else never did themselves. Now I'm not saying everyone out there is like this, because there are in fact a lot of good teachers. I learned to do things a certain way, and it makes sense. And yet I see others who espouse certain teachers' methods who do it differently. Now just doing it differently is not wrong. In fact, it's good as far as I'm concerned. I'm always willing to look at new things and maybe try them out if I like them. However, I have seen people, for instance, doing push hands and letting their P'eng arm collapse almost against their chest, and saying that teacher so and so does it this way because of this and that, and it's bull! In some cases, I seriously doubt that these teachers teach this way, I think that the students are simply mistaken because they cannot quite grasp what their teacher is doing. I have also seen people lean far over backwards in push hands to "yield" to a push, and was tempted the traverse the 10 feet or so between mysef and them and kick them square in the balls to teach them how to do it right!!! (I did not, of course.)

I believe that things like this exist because people are far too willing to over-intellectualize things, to the point that if they can't f*ck it up on their own they ask their teacher to further confuse them so they can f*ck it up royally. When I teach people, I do not teach them about different jings and baloney like that. I teach them how to do it. I have found that giving a minimum of thigns for the student to intellectualize keeps them from trying too hard and consequently f*cking it up. I was trying to teach a friend of mine fa-jing, and having been up for several days straight before our meeting, my mind was not working very well. After an hour or so of trying to get him to use his body the way he needed by giving him classic sayings and body part specific instructions and breakdowns, I realized it was too much. I was frustrated. He wanted to give up, but I was determined to give him some lesson he could internalize that day. I said, "one more time...punch the glove with the punch I showed you, this time with fa-jing. Fa-jing is like a sneeze. I want you to sneeze into the glove." Well...he looked at me like I was a moron, and gave it a go anyway. He didn't get it, and I went home disappointed in myself for not being able to convey a simple idea like fa-jing to him. After a few months of correspondence with him (he moved to the west coast shortly after our meeting) I got a letter from him saying that he finally understood what I meant when I said "sneeze into the glove." He was finally entering the internal.

My first glimpse of fa-jing other than Erle Montaigue doing it, was during a PBS special on bears, in which two adult males were filmed fighting with each other. They moved exactly the same way Erle did. I have watched cats, dogs, iguanas, pythons, etc, and have found correlations between what Erle says and what all these animals do when they explode into action. Sometimes, only very subtle things, but nonetheless it is the same, as if fa-jing oxtongue palm strike were the equivalent of an iguana whipping his tail, or a tiger palm strike was the equivalent of a cat puncing on a mouse, or as if certain holds and locks were the human equivalent of a python puncing on and encoiling its prey.

And now, after all this time of people claiming Erle's method was wrong, I have seen videos of certain masters demonstrating fa-jing that looked exactly like Erle's.

Now what is the difference between Erle's method of teaching fa-jing and others'? Why could I "get" it in a shorter period than others who studied with other teachers? For one thing, he starts with the most minute and sometimes stupid sounding body movements and builds on them over time, where others say, "do this" and let you figure it out for yourself. For another, much useless intellectuallizing, mostly because of this previous factor, has been eliminated. If you are told the exact body mechanics, there is no need for over-intellectualizing. Now, when people pick on Erle's focus on the waist, they do not realize that those instructions are aimed at people who already have a grasp on opening and closing of the body, etc. That does not mean a beginner could not learn from it, but it is a further refinement, not the be all and the end all.

[Sam Wiley]

Hang on, I'm not finished.


When you perform fa-jing, the ENTIRE body must move as a unit. People leave out the feet or the head or something from the equation all the time, and when they do, it is not fa-jing. But then they pick on a guy whose feet leave the ground when he explodes like this.

Now tell me, whose ENTIRE body is moving, the guys whose feet remain stuck to the floor, or the guy whose feet come up off the ground as he is propelled forward? I have seen other masters on video performing fa-jing, and they also do this. To say that your entire body moves and yet insist that one part of it NOT move is stupid! So these people saying that a method of generation that keeps the feet on the ground is superior to one that allows the feet to move of their own accord are full of sh!t.

Furthermore, although power is drawn from the ground through thefeet, transferred up through the legs, and manifests in the fingers, the waist is still the controller of the movement. The waist is the commander. The waist as a matter of fact, is the amplifier of power, taking what is drawn up from the ground, amplifying it and then directing it. Now I have heard a lot of people say that the waist does not power fa-jing and that the legs do. What they are missing, and what I have tried to drive into them, is that they are correct and incorrect at the same time. The waist alone does not generate a lot of power. But it can seriously amplify the power drawn from the ground by the legs. People only say these things because they are self-concious about what they look like while practicing, and do not want to be seen doing funny moves. They don't want to be laughed at because they think they are somebody important and deserve better, never realizing that if they were somebody important, they wouldn't worry about being laughed at because people would be laughing behind their backs instead in front of them. Let people laugh, they are going to anyway. Better people laugh for a while so you learn some humility. I have had almost as many people laugh when they see a Bagua form as I have had people step back in slack-jawed awe of fa-jing. That's part of the yin and yang of life.

"You take the good, you take the bad, you take 'em all and there you have the facts of life, the facts of life..."

Sory, you're probably too young to remember that show.:p

Anyway, these self-concious people, who cannot grasp the waist directing the movement, simply because they are too self-concious, often eliminate it from the equation, and with it the shaking and vibration of fa-jing. They then claim that simple body mechanics are behind things like fa-jing, and proceed to demonstrate by shoving some poor b@stard across the room or against a wall, claiming that this is a characteristic of fa-jing when it simply is not. I have demonstrated this physically to people who did not believe me when I told them it was more than simple physics, shoving them using simple physical power and proper alignement, and then shoving them with fa-jing. In the first instance, they are lifted off their feet and sent flying. In the second, they are shaken off their feet, often travelling only a few feet.

Now to clarify something, there is Chan Su Jing, the spiralling energy. The theory behind it states that by spiralling the body and twisting it, we create a longer path for the force we are about to transfer to build power and momentum. By doing this, we no longer need space to create effective strikes because we have "internallized" the space needed. If you want to think of this as refining and enhancing the physics of the movement, then you are not incorrect, and in that case, everything would still be physics, but now they are complicated a bit when you think about them. For instance, how do we accomplish this method? Well, in order for our bodies to make a simple spiral, say along a vertical axis, we must twist in the middle. Now if our backbone had a spear running through its length, the top half would turn one way and the bottom half would turn the opposite. If you look at the way a Bagua practitioner walks the circle, this is exactly what is seen in his body posture. This same thing happens to a lesser extent in Taiji.

What we have is the top and bottom halves of the body twisting agaisnt each other to create torque. Releasing it needs a trigger. So we use the waist, which is at the very center of the area. The waist explodes into action, and the body's power is released. The hands will punch, and the feet will move a bit.

On top of these large coils, we have ever-smaller examples. For instance, the waist might compress down the center, or only on one side as it expands on the other, the hands might twist to gain a little extra power, or the legs might spiral. Add to this expanding and contracting of the body, as well as violent intent, and the strike is powerful indeed.

As for the waist, it will shake from side to side, like a swinging door on a detented hinge, returning to center. But it is the trigger and I suppose that's why we talk about it so much. The waist movement allows you to yield and yet not have to lean over backward or use overly large movements to accomplish the same job. In effect, using for instance Lu, with waist movement, yields, and yet does the same job as a larger rollback might, without the extra physical movement and effort. This is a perfect example of what the classics mean by saying that you should use four ounces to deflect a thousand pounds. The four ounces and thousand pounds are measures of effort and force. If you have to make a greater effort than the ideal, then your technique was not perfect. Doing this technique with fa-jing instead of simple waist movement sticks to the classics, and yet is a more practical and quicker application that might just end he encounter as it begins, especially if you follow the classics to the letter and follow rollback with a strike, which will be powered by the exact same fa-jing movement that powers the yielding movement. This conservative type of power generation lends itself to rebounding strikes off of previous strikes, since very little effort was expended, and the body begins to re-coil for yet another strike, just as powerful as the first.

[Sam Wiley]

And just like one fa-jing strike rebounding off the previous one, I keep going and going and going...

I'm going to have to stop there. The more I talk about fa-jing, the more in depth I get, and I can't sit here all night typing.

Tune in next time for more on rebound strikes...same bat time, same bat channel...

[Sum Guye]

Assuming any of what you seem to believe is factual... how does one perfect one's fa-jing?

And how does one find willing training partners who understand that their death will result in the fa-jing being applied properly?

[Sam Wiley]

You should not be striking people with fa-jing. Despite the fact that I have in the past to illustrate a point, I no longer do. The reason is because I got tired of having to heal the damage I caused. If anyone is foolish enough to allow themselves to be struck by anyone, then they deserve whatever they get, though. However, it would be very hard to kill someone who is just standing there waiting to be hit with a strike unless you are supremely accurate or supremely lucky with the strike. In a fight, there are more factors that come into play, such as being powered by his force in addition to what you might use, adrenaline, momentum, etc. On top of that, intent is a bit different as well. I say to people not to do this strike or that one because death might result to make them careful. There are too many people out there promoting acupoint striking who are careless and invite others to be careless as well.

You can practice fa-jing on a punching bag, full powered strikes won't hurt an inanimate object. There are ways to tell if you are doing it right. For instance, if you are using a heel palm strike the bag (usually a physical thing and nothing more), the bag will swing like a pendulum. That's the physical force moving it. If you strike it with maybe an oxtongue palm, the bag will not swing but it will shudder visibly. The shudder is an indication of the "qi" in the strike. In Bagua, there is a third kind of palm strike that combines these two, where the bag will not only swing but shudder as it does so. That's an indication of the ability to do both physical and energetic damage at the same time.

You can apply these observations to Taiji punches on a bag as well. If you just drive the fist in and the bag swings with no shudder, then it's more of a physical thing than internal. If the bag shudders violently but does not move very far, then it's an indication that the strike was an energetic one. And shudder while swinging indicates both physical and internal power are present.

In training with a partner, you should only be striking at them full power if they are capable of retaliating against it without getting hurt. And if they are it means that they have to strike back at you full powered, which means you must be capable of doing the same.

To train to be able to strike people with fa-jing requires that you work on your reflexes in conjunction with your technique. Taiji and Bagua have a great many training methods that make certain methods into reflex actions to an attack. By using abstract training methods, we cause the body to want to move in certain ways, and these movements encompass broad categories of movement, so that the movement is internalized and not a technique. Then we train in these movements against different kinds of attacks so that we learn how to use the movement and do not have to depend on technique.

To perfect fa-jing...you simply have to continue your practice for a lifetime. There are always new levels to explore, and I can't give you an exercise or a set of exercises to perfect something that always seems to get better and better.

[Sum Guye]

so, in the past, when you struck people with fa-jing to illustrate a point... how many of them died? (if they didn't die, then by your own verbose decscriptions, you did not really fa-jing).

[Zantesuken]

uh very good description. almost makes me wanna believe you. your opinions are probably somewhat true and there is only on type of jing. but that's not it's own purpose. i recently met a tai chi master from hong kong. this guy could send his 'jing' through people.
i was pushing hands with one of his friends and his friend wasn't pushing enough so he lightly touched her back and suddenly she shot straight at me. it was the weirdest thing cause he power tripled from before.
then before he left i asked him about the part with sending people back and the fajing to kill.
basically he said that when you start to practise tai chi, standing meditation you are already training your jing.
oh yeah on a note i'm cantonese and jing is a mandarin term. it sounds very familiar to "ging" which means basically power.
so he said jing is used for many purposes not just killing people. and i don't believe tai chi was formulated to kill people. taoist teachings to not advocate to kill.
he still said that you can kill someone with it even if you haven't trained yourself in fa-jing yet. for example if you've trained in tai chi for quite a bit people would feel a difference in your punches from before. you can bounce people back and so on. and he did bounce me back so i don't believe it' snot possible. it was quite cool. he only moved a tiny bit. it wasn't even fast or lightning quick and i felt like i was being lifted off the ground away from him. it was quite quite COOL!

haha so anyways since you're mentality is western not that i'm biased or anything it will become harder for you to grasp the methods. don't talk to other people about not being able to grasp the smaller details. there is definately a language barrier and even the best of translators can't get the true meaning. since my chinese isn't superior cause i dropped out at gr 2 chinese i'm not inclined to read but my grandma can so that's how i understand my stuff.

i don't know where i'm going gos i'll conclude it here. ijust woke up and it said that i had a reply to this topic

i really appreciate the effort you took but at the very end of your post you said that there's always new levels to achieve. so don't think that erle montigue's definition is the ultimate one. you yourself have only reached a certain level. the person i met is probably a higher level so i don't know. he does a lot of training, he goes to china once a year to goto mh toi san (cantonese translation!). i guess it's 5 something mountain. he demonstrated some stuff. so don't say that there's only one use for it. if you fundementally understand JING then you know that everything prodcues jing, your elbows can, your head, your shoulders, your hips, your knees, your feet, your internal organs. for instance my grandma can hold out her arms as if she was diong standing meditation posture and start turning her body left and right and no matter how hard i try i can't push her elbows in. that is also jing. so always keep an open mind. western mentality and asian mentality are a bit different. even though you think you've gotten close you never know how many other levels there are.

[Zantesuken]

also the mere thought that your intent is to kill someone with fa-jing says a lot about your taining. no matter how high a level you attain, your kung fu will easily be lost.

and about the western to chinese thing i'm not being racist. i'm not talking about the BIOLOGICAL differences. i'm talking about the mental differences

[Sam Wiley]

If you want to use my definition to say I did not actually do fa-jing because the people did not die, okay I can see that. But I also said that not all points on the body will kill. It would be difficult, don't you think, to strike someone on the hand and kill them? (Impossible, I'd say.) In any case, I had not been practicing fa-jing long when I did it, so it's possible that I simply was not

Zantesuken,
I believe that, although you can direct the energy to go straight through someone, that is a more physical example of fa-jing, and not so much energy. You can also direct the energy to travel from one spot to for instance, the heart. You could strike the lower ribs and direct it to go to the heart by doing things right. What would be the point of sending the energy straight through the person except for demonstration purposes? Better to send it into them and leave it there to do damage when it comes to fighting.

What many might call p'eng jing, I call proper structure. The instance where you pushed against your friend's arms and could not collapse them...an example of proper structure and not jing. If that's what p'eng jing is, then so be it, but I see no point in putting mystical names on things.

I practice for self-defense, and part of that training includes learning to kill. I do not train to fight in tournaments, nor do I train to compete in any other arena. I do not train to be like anyone else. On the other hand, I also train to heal, something that takes up a much larger part of my training than learning to kill, if you can believe it. Without sounding too condescending, you know very little of my background. I have experienced a great deal that many people, if they are lucky, never will. It's because of this that my attitudes are a little "harder" than most people's regarding a great many things. I also travel into areas often where if I get into trouble, the intent to kill will be to my advantage. On normal everyday suburban streets, the intent to kill might be an unnecessary thing, but in places where I have lived and through which I have to travel, when the sun sets, you don't want to be caught outside. Having been in a couple of fights where knives were drawn, and having had a gun pulled on me once and another person threaten to pull his gun, I tend to have a more severe attitude than some. I was brought up violently, and lived violently with violent people for a very long time. Though I have become more easy going over the years, there are still things that carry over from that period. Even among these violent people, I am still considered quite violent, though I consider my self quite tame. Go figure.

My opinions may very well be wrong, but they are formed from some experience.

[taijiquan_student]

Sam--Question:

Sometimes in class, we are practicing body alignment and connection through drilling basic long-energy pushes. As you probably know, these are the pushes that can send a person flying and look very impressive, but do not hurt the other person--they're the basic, purely "physical" pushes you mentioned. However, sometimes when we do this my teacher will demonstrate two versions of this:the first is the basic physical/structural one you have mentioned, and then he'll do it a second time, but adding qi into it. You can cleary feel the difference, and the "qi push" is most definitely more powerful, feels different, and is internal.

So would you consider that an "internal" fajin (by your definition of internal fajin)? Maybe you would have to feel something like that to judge properly. I would say "yes", because he is bringing out the jin (literal translation of fa-jin), and exploding out the qi to add another dimension to it, thereby making it internal, but I'm just interested in what you think about this, since it's kind of in the middle between killing fajin and physical pushing.
Thanks a lot.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Really didn’t want to comment but I found it interesting the different views.

It feels different because the yi has preceded the push; in a sense your body is just following the intent and energy of the other. This is what Z felt; there is no sensation of force applied. This is very different from using any type of bone alignment.


A very lite touch but strong mind is needed for this. When you can do this it really feels effortless for both the one pushing and the one receiving it. it can be long or short, the better the person the less movement seen.

:)

[Sam Wiley]

Yeah, I'd say that's kind of a middle ground, like Bagua's palm method that is a combination between the two.

More than likely, in a self-defense situation, that is the type of strike that's going to be used, since a great deal of techniqie is lost under pressure.

Does the power shake you right down to your center, or is it just a more poweful push? I'd say that if it were a more powerful push, it's more middle ground, but if you're shaken right down into your center it was qi. I suppose that a really good master would also be able to still have a strong push while maintaining the internal power. The problem is that it's not necessary (or shouldn't be, theoretically) to send a person flying at the same time, as they will feel the power and recognize it if it is there without being shoved so far. I guess the reason people do it this way is because people equate really powerful martial arts with a lot of strength or else achieving the same or greater results with no effort.

Rant:
Another problem is with translation, as Zantesuken has said. For instance, in Grasping Sparrow's Tail, there is a posture many call "push." The actual name of the posture is Press. The movement is not necessarily used to push someone. Take note of the elbows. When you site back, your elbows open up a bit, and then when you Press Forward you squeeze your elbows in, which rotaes your palms slightly. The palm rotation happens because this movement is representative of a strike to the pectorals, and the correct direction for the strike is in opposing circles. So you sit back, turning slightly to the left, and your mind should be blocking a right punch and pking to the throat with the fingers (for an easy example). Then you come forward with the press, and your left palm strikes the right pec as it turns counter-clockwise as your right palm turns yin, and then your right palm turns yang and strikes in a clockwise manner to the left pec as your left palm turns yin again. The next movement of the form, Sit Back Ready wit hSnake Fingers, follows on from this movement, with the left hand blocking a right punch by sliding up the arm and then the right fingers thrusting forward, then a sit back. Now in the Old Yang style, the same posture of Press Forward is done after two rising elbow strikes, so the palms crash downward, similar to the tiger movements of Xingyi. In the original version of Grasp the Sparrow's Tail, the Press is not a push at all. While the application I was taught was a double wrist lock shoving his wrists back into his belly, I often think of it as jerking the wrists and striking to the tips of the floating ribs, so it's more of a Press or a push that way.

Nowadays we have Push Hands, but hte original Tui Shou methods were not push/pull type exercises. They were more akin to structured sparring or two man drills. Dan Docherty says that originally they were not even call "pushing" hands, but other names, like scraping hands and striking hands. That jives with what I have learned of the original methods and their evolution into today's pushing hands exercises.

Nowadays, everyone equates Taiji skill with pushes and pulls, but there really are none in the art. Pushing and pulling is a basic skill and you do not need martial arts to learn them. But what do we see at demonstrations of skill now? Pushing. When a teacher wants to demonstrate power or pretty much anything, he pushes someone. But what do you do in a fight? YOU DON'T PUSH AT ALL! You punch, kick, slap, poke and whatever, and generally try to do as much damage as possible. You don't push. And I have yet to see two people, or to experience this myself, really fight and I mean really fight, who fight and one person defeats the other without hurting him. Why? Because that's bull, foisted on people who don't want to get their hands dirty by learning to really fight, who want to believe that they are going to be able to win a fight with a few easy lessons, some dance moves, and by pushing and pulling without really hurting anyone.

That's the pushing problem in a nutshell, and why I don't see how pushing someone across a room proves anything other than the fact the one person enjoys shoving and another enjoys being shoved, unless you count a demonstration of proper body mechanics and good leverage, which definitely come into play there.

End Rant.

Thank you...don't forget to tip your waitress.

[Zantesuken]

i don't think a lot of people realise the severity of internal damage in the definition of sam wiley's. too severly damage someone like that is purely stupid. i would never issue that. and to someone who sent me a note. those who only believe that fa-jing cannot send a person flying back has only experienced only a bit.

basically the pushing isn't purely physical. when you practise tai chi you are developing ging in your movements so your punches, pushes, everything seems more powerful. added with chi yeah it feels different. i could see the si suk's hands stop but i kept on moving back as if there was an invisible extension pushing me. quite cool.

and sending a person flying back without harming them is not only impressive looking. you send them away without hurting them. the people who train purely to have the ability to cause internal damage no matter what they say elsewise will easily lose their skill and will be very limited in their training.

[brassmonkey]

Sam bravo on another series of classics postings. You should really write an online book then whenver someone comes up with a question of fa jing, dim mak etc. u post the link the appropriate chapter instead of rewriting your epics.

[Zantesuken]

and just saw sam's thing.

that's just your perception of fighting. true there are punches in a real fight but also you can push. just because you aren't at that level doesn't mean pushing isn't there. and striking hands no matter what there is the point of sticking to the other person. same with push hands. if you fight and all you do is strike and so on you'll be screwed when you come to someone who can actually stick and return your power.

[Zantesuken]

ah hate posting again but the peng jing aspect is still jing even if it is whatever. and it's not proper alignment. she simply raises her hands and i can't push it in no matter what angle i go from.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Where to begin?

Push hands as I understand it is to develop skill, the skill of listening, sticking, following releasing. there is much more but this is the basic idea.

Did I miss something along the way?



“Nowadays, everyone equates Taiji skill with pushes and pulls, but there really are none in the art.”

this seem kind of confusing, i think drinking tea would help. :)

[Sam Wiley]

Well, let me put it this way. You are in high school right now, and you can push all you want because things aren't that serious. But the first time you get into a bar fight or get jumped because you have to walk through the ghetto and you're the only white guy around for miles and are wearing a pair of Nikes...I think you get the point.

Saying that you would never do the kind of damage I'm talking about is naivety. If you want to risk your life by simply pushing someone and trying to look good, well, it's your life to waste.

I keep reading posts of yours that say that people who train like I do will not develop real skill. You are wrong. And besides that, you have yet to present evidence supporting your claim. It doesn't matter whether or not you look "cool" when you dispatch a person, as long as you can. When I once used a posture from Bagua to throw someone at a party (well? he wanted a demo of Bagua) called Old Man Fishing, neither he nor anyone else complemented me on a great hip throw or an excellent technique or anything else. The only words that came out of their mouths were, "how the Hell did you do THAT?" They never even saw it, and he only remembered throwing a punch and then having to pick himself off the floor. I'd much rather have people not know what I did than be able to identify it. So you keep on trying to look good, and I'll keep on being the guy nobody even knows studies martial arts when they see him fight and win.

I demonstrated a one inch punch once to someone who didn't believe i could do it, and the phenomenon was very similar to what you describe happening to you. I hit him, and my hand moved only a small distance, yet he flew back about three feet into a tree. It may have been cool for you, but he found it quite painful.

Again, I do not train to be a martial artist, I train to defend myself. They are two different things.

Brassmonkey,
Thank you. I've thought of that, just so I won't have to type so much. But every time I try it, I get writer's block. I have three articles in the works for Gary Romel's site, and always get writer's block when I try to add to the content.

[Sam Wiley]

Bamboo Leaf,
Yes and no. Tui shou teaches what you listed. Plus it teaches body usage for fighting, without actually containing techniques. There are also training methods that you can use along with tui shou to correlate that body movement with fighting methods. Push Hands does not, of course, teach you to push and pull, and nor can it be used for fighting as is it practiced. Yet we see so many people out there saying that Taiji's repetoire of techniques is pushes and pulls, and when asked for technique, they demonstrate a push hands movement.

I only brought up tui shou because I was on the subject of the posture commonly called "push."

[brassmonkey]

Your welcome Sam. Don't let Bamboo troll your thread here, you start listening to him and you might become as watered down as the art he practices. There was an article a few year back by your teacher concerning using Tai Chi for anti grappling do you happen to know the mag and issue of this?

[Nexus]

In all of these definitions, you've externalized your understanding to a physical means by which the actualization of the process occurs in energetic means. What's a push and a pull when broken down into energetic terms? What's a fa-jing broken into energetic terms? I can split somone with my left hand on the lower back and right arm coming accross in a ridgehand attitude without ever using fa-jing and easily break their back. These methods could be thought of as pushing as I am using a peng attitude and waist power to achieve this type of a push of front and back towards one another. Or the method could fa-jing and split the energy front and back. What ends exactly are you working towards with all of these definitions? I feel that an attempt to explain a concept such as fa-jing in laymen terms is an exercise in mental masturbati0n.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Whew!! Slow down, guys !! i think there is room in the Art for many perspectives, a well structured, firmly intended upper-cut can be as internal as a "one inch punch".. or a crisply executed single-whip.. It is my experience that Tai Chi is applicable at every level of conflict, that ultimately the individual expresses the elements of Tai Chi in many ways, many not found in the "Form".. The Form is just a training tool, Tai Chi permeates every aspect of life..

It is also my experience (those who know me understand) that Tai Chi principles together with Chin Na will handle almost any situation.. i could bang fists and heads in a heated exchange, my opponent(s) may fall, they may get up again.. Chin Na allows one to incapacitate an opponent and move on to the next..Tai Chi enhances that aspect of the Arts to a level that the Chin Na is difficult to perceive, and the result difficult to overcome..

That one fighter finds himself (herself) at home in the "dominate and destroy" aspect of the Art, is simply "their Way".. That another fighter finds their center in more subtle expressions is no better nor worse.. just different.. In the end, what works for the individual is just that.. Simply because one doesn't see it the way another does, doesn't assign some cosmic validity to either.. Tai Chi is expansive, encompassing, and evolving.. lets not confine it too much..

Oh, just for the record.. i, personally, find Tai Chi supported by Chin Na to be a superior response to the "punch and kick" attacks that we usually face.. and highly superior to weapon attacks (well, up to the venerable hand-gun)..

Be well..

[bamboo_ leaf]

Z, a little of topic sorry for this.

“As watered down as the art he practices.”

Mmm, water can be very useful, must be the tea I drink.

A few words.

Many people post and make really broad statements like the one above or in reference to all or most TC is wrong my teacher and me have the only true TC.

I just find it odd that we seem don’t hear much from the Chinese people who the art came from derogating what others practice, as we do from other non-Chinese people for the most part.

The most I’ve ever heard people say in the Chinese community here is that “this is not TC” or something along those lines. They pretty much respect others ideas of TC even though they may not agree with them completely. None are out to save the world from the chi huggers or new agers. They pretty much ignore them and practice their art as they know it.

i would be carfule about something that is said to be waterd down, try to keep an open mind, many people drown in calm waters.

[Sam Wiley]

Brassmonkey,
Sorry, I only have one magazine with an article written by Erle and it isn't about that. But he does have a book with some info on how to beat grapplers. The title is "How to Fight a Grappler...and Win" I think. The book contains useful fa-jing training methods for dealing with several different types of attacks, including attempted takedowns. There are also tips on applying sleeper and choke holds. It's a pretty good book.

I might normally say something about "watered down" Taiji, except I get the distinct impression Bamboo Leaf is getting good stuff. Besides that, he has practiced at least one other art I think (Mantis if I remember), and should therefore know what to look for in terms of actual martial usage.

I agree that Taiji's use of chin-na will be enough to handle almost any situation. However, I combine chin-na with strikes all the time. While my finisher might be a sleeper or something like that, I strike my way in to get it on. But I do not see that happening with multiple opponent scenarios, for which I train to strike more than anything. (Throws and stuff too, but no real holds.) Nor would I recommend strictly grappling against someone with a knife.

I define fa-jing in terms of the physical because some of the people I talk to here seem to not understand how to do it. They want to talk circles, but when cornered they say, "well, no I can't do it, but I still know how..." which doesn't make sense.

I very rarely talk about the actual "qi" part of it. I have a sincere belief in that side of it, but that does not help you acquire the ability, it merely expands the possibilities. If you want me to talk about qi disruptions and other energetic phenomena, then I can. Now, I am pretty loose with a definition of Split, because I understand the broad blanket people put it under. Occasionally I use the terminology as well. However, when I refer to Split, it is usually an attack on the elbow. I'd say the usual example of Split given is a sweep, though I can see where the split thing came from. Anyway, I am defining fa-jing in physical terms so that people can get it. It doesn't do any good to obscure their path with useless terminology and examples of something other than fa-jing.

[Zantesuken]

uh fa-jing is physical..... if there's no movement on the outside there will be movement on the inside. many martial arts, the POINT is the same but the METHOD is different.

and learning from books......ahhh it's ok but books that teach you how to get out of direct situations in my view limit your training in a way. if you learn to get out of something predefinately it becomes habitual. not that it's not good but i find it better for you to actually figure something out. i don't fight a lot but maybe once in a while i'll try something out and it works.

the only reason your restricting your definition of jing is because you haven't grasped the full meaning of it. i can't tell you exactly because my definition is in chinese but maybe sometime later i'll try. usually in my long posts they always get confused towards the end if you ever read them heh.

[Sam Wiley]

Now you're talking out of your a$$.

[gazza99]

I was going to chime in on this one earlier but Sam is already making my points!! Thanks Sam!! Send me those arcticles when they are complete, with all thats going on my time is very limited, thanks!!
I understand what some of you are saying about pushing, I can do it, and do it very well. But unless you are pushing someone into an oncoming car its not very usefull. there are many different kind of jings. An-jing (spelling?) is the one used to push, it uses more raw power from the root to just barrel through. Fa-jing as sam and I know it does not project someone, but does extreme internal damage. When my life is threatened I want full use of all kinds of jings!
regards,
Gary

[Zantesuken]

it's true man. learning out of books............how can i say it..........can choke up your chi. that's the best translation i can give heh.

i know you can't honestly say to yourself that you are a tai chi master. while you may win fights with others there are MANY more mountains taller than you. so don't limit yourself

[Sam Wiley]

I haven't chuckled in a long time. Thank you.

I told him the title of Erle Montaigue's book because he asked about a magazine article with similar subject matter. If he wants to read about the stuff, I have pointed him in a definite direction.

"Choke up your qi..." Whatever, dude. Most of the books on my shelf are reference anyway, but for the sake of argument, if you couldn't learn from books and actually get something right, people wouldn't put them out. Books, though intended for reference while studying with a teacher, can also open new areas of your training.

I have never claimed any titles, especially not "master." I was, however, asked to teach by my teacher, though I never expressed interest in teaching. I am well aware of both my abilities and my limitations.

You write a lot about how you can't give me the real English translation of Chinese passages or teachings that influences your opinions as if I can't translate it myself or have it translated. You act as if you want to hint to me that you have secrets but you aren't willing to share. Well...either share or shut up and stop fronting as if you were the elite.

An opinion was asked. I gave one. If you don't like it, deal with it.

[Chris McKinley]

For those of you playing the home game, this is the portion of our program where the thinly-veiled Sinophilic racist remarks about Westerners not being able to understand abstract concepts come in. Nobody does the "I'm new to the art, but I'm Chinese so I can hide behind the morphosyntactic differences between polygraphic languages and Indo-European dialectic sequentialist languages (plus my grandma teaches me and she's Chinese too) so I can pretend I understand the depths of the art better than you do, you silly clumsy mentally ham-handed Westerner" strategy like Zantesuken can, so tonight's game ought to be a good one, a real barn burner. Now, back to the show.

[Nexus]

It's springtime, today being the equanox depending on where you are. Winter which is represented by the emotion.. say it together now fear is closing and fear is followed by the emotions which spring convey, say it together now "anger." Yes, we've all heard psychologists convey that anger is a secondary emotion and as spring approaches, this thread unveils those little monetary hints of the taoist sciences. So be aware that your hostile feelings might begin to emerge. It's a time of transition and we should harmonize ourselves with such transitions as spring is growing, whether we choose to or not.

Fun blurb!

- Nexus

[Internal Boxer]

Sam & Chris I sincerely commend your efforts to try and give TC the quality fighting art reputation it deserves. But there will be plenty of people out there who will want to forsake the Yang to focus on the Yin. These people will not listen to what you have to say they have their own stagnant ideas regarding this.

I tend to focus on my Xing-yi these days cause I think the Hippies may stay clear of it and will not turn it into an aerobic prance dance. Probably because Xing-yi is wrongly precieved as too simple or too Yang - how soooo wrong, I have a teacher of direct lineage of Sun Lu Tang, he is simply awesome, and he really does amaze every other Martial Artisit I have introduced to him, and he is a very nice bloke who sees how TC has become this joke, and will not pass on any secrets to those who may bring Xing-yi i to its knees as is happened with TC. The power my teacher can manifest simply defys logic given he is only 5ft4inch tall but hard as nails, and soft as water (balanced!!!)

I have a hell of a lot of contact with other MA as I like to show them the quality of IMA, and I can safely say they are amazed at the direct quality and power the IMA's generate. But I understand their perception of TC as being a health dance, because I firmly believe most parctioners are. I know I will get stick for this but I do not care cause I am just saying what every decent IMA practioner is thinking.

Sorry but the truth does hurt.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Tai Chi is what it is.. if for some of you it's ego-enhancing fight-talk, for others it's pious health and longevity lamentations.. What it is NOT, is any individual's possession to define, confine or dictate.. This is a poor example of Tai Chi's balance principles, the "i'm right/your wrong" mentality.. it goes back to another post, "Fighting".. is the "proof" of Tai Chi in the fighting, or in the life lived.. to some they can't seem to get beyond the need to be superior, their "fighting" will be their definition of self.. to others, fighting is only one aspect of the balanced being.. and, what is problem with "hippies" ?.. is that reference just another signature of a clouded and prejudiced mind? It might be well advised to rethink the "hippie" contribution, at one point they were the force that kept this art alive and thriving here in the west.. one of the reasons that it became so available today..

Tai Chi is indeed a fighting Art, but.. that's not ALL it is..

As for FaJing.. it can be applied to gardening as well as fighting, it can be expressed in anger and in love.. it is limited only by the mind that perceives it..

[Nexus]

Right on TaichiBob. I remember once rock climbing with a 65 year old man, and he told me, after a few months when you have gained the physical strength to hold on and climb the rocks, everything else is between the ears.

- Nexus

[Internal Boxer]

Modern TC: Can you hear that grinding sound, I do believe it is Yang-Lu-Chan turning in his grave.

Whilst I would agree that my truth is not your truth, I am sorry if I scratched a nerve, but I just tell it how it is! If that causes you distress then I could not give a rats a$$. I am probably a bit rough around the edges for your delicate silk suited taste.

I have been at the sharp end of nutters. I live in a large town called Ashton-U-Lyne which is part of Greater Manchester. We have had 3 killings from street fights in the past 4 weeks, when I go out for a beer at the weekend it is normal to see a few fights, it is pretty rough around here, so I cannot get upset by a few words on a screen, as it does not mean anything important.

I don't think I will loose any sleep in fear of hippies coming after me to give a kickin.

:D

[Zantesuken]

sam so you do understand chinese?

and you're the one acting elite. you're not open to anyone elses opinion except your own because you own a shelf of books and articles. if i could translate the stuff i knew then i would.

and the choking up chi yes it does happen. it's true the books are for your reference but the authors also put them out to make money. of course you can learn new stuff from them if they really are trying to teach you but they don't teach you what NOT to do. and that's why books can't suffice for a real si fu.

i agree that they can open up new areas but then half of the time they just fill your head with stuff that gets you bogged down.

being asked to teach may make you one of the top in your class. it doesn't mean you're anywhere near the top anywhere else.

and what kind of secrets would I have? train hard that's it.

[Zantesuken]

mckinley i'm not being racist. you're the one who thinks i am because you're trying to defend youself because you are at a high level without being able to speak chinese. it's not even being the chinese that matters.

i said before it's nothing PHYSICAL/biological. it's all in the mentality. the language borders are there.

take a look at the tao te ching. how many translations are there? and how many translations are the same? even one chinese character could have multiple definitions some even contradicting one another.

20 years of internal arts should have calmed your heart not sharpened your tongue.

[Nexus]

Originally posted by Zantesuken
20 years of internal arts should have calmed your heart not sharpened your tongue. [/B]

Interesting Observation.

- Nexus

[Chris McKinley]

Zantesuken,

RE: "mckinley i'm not being racist. you're the one who thinks i am because you're trying to defend youself because you are at a high level without being able to speak chinese.". Utter bullsh*t. I've not been under attack and have therefore given no defense of anything. Besides, this statement is wrong on yet two other accounts. First, though I appreciate the compliment, I make no claim of being at a high level in Taijiquan. Second, not being able to speak Chinese is not anything that needs defending by anyone. As to your next couple of statements, I'm glad to see you've changed your mind, given the blatant statements regarding the mental capabilities of westerners in general and myself and a few others in specific in the past.

RE: "20 years of internal arts should have calmed your heart not sharpened your tongue.". Yes, and it has also taught me to recognize truth and to promote and defend it. Playing nice for its own sake when this art is being mischaracterized or ethnic ad hominem attacks are being made is not something I'm interested in. By your line of reasoning here, I should become more tolerant of injustice in general. No thanks, not interested. 27 years of total training have given me choice in making my response, not defaulted me to one of passivism in all contexts.

[Zantesuken]

NO again you've tooken me wrong. see my chinese doesn't translate directly. by mentality i mean the way you think. westerners are in no way dumber or smarter than chinese ppl. chinese ppl just work harder so they seem to be smarter in school heh.

what imean is the way we were brought up. the structure of the language. and the way we think about things aren't the same as a western mind would.

i in no way am saying westerners are inferior!
jeez if that's what you got mad for sorry for my bad translating skills.

[Sam Wiley]

You have yet to translate anything. I am therefore forced to conclude that you are a troll, an observation I made about you on your second post. As I said, if you have something to share then do so, whether it is in Chinese or English doesn't matter. You keep making excuses, and that says to all here that you have nothing with which to back your argument except you racist remarks. You contend that I have somehow laid claim to the title of a high level practitioner when I have done no such thing. I have simply stated what I know and what I can do. If you think I haven't been practicing long enough to be able to make those claims then although you are entitled to your opinion you are incorrect. Besides that, you have not trained as long as I have, and therefore you do not have the experience to draw on to make your claims. The knowledge and ability I have so far gained has been through a lot of very hard work.

I have never claimed to be better, but I DO know exactly what I am capable of.

[Internal Boxer]

Zan you should be near the earth's core with the hole you are digging for yourself.

Booyakasha (Ali G)

[kboggess]

Wow, we're off and running...maybe I can offer some middle ground.

My wife is Chinese and my son is half--and my mother-in-law who speaks no English is living with us. So, I am going to jump in on the racist accusations.

First, let me share a couple of things about my background. I am one of Erle's US instructors. Yet I am also a Xing Yi student of a professor in China, Lin Jian Hua (who is a wu shu national grade judge). I get a taste of both worlds.

Zan, I have met Sam and he is really a nice guy. His postings may be interpreted as high sounding, but that is not his intention. His passion about the arts is what is coming off. And he has pierced the essence of what Erle teaches.

Sam and Chris, if Zan (and correct me if I'm wrong) is Cantonese and an ABC, then I understand what he is saying about the mistranslation of cultural concepts. I reread the posts to make sure. We as westerners do miss a lot. Trust me...I worked in Japan as a teacher for three years and currently move within the Chinese environment on a daily basis. I do not believe Zan is being racist. For example, many Chinese students in America do achieve more because they do work harder. That is an important value within their society. Not only is the kid's future at stake but the parent's reputation (and in conservative families the ancestors) as well.

Now, Zan, if you are still in high school, give yourself another few years. You will see what Sam is trying to say about pushing and the way taiji is interpreted today. I had stopped practicing taiji (24 and 42 count forms) until I ran across Erle's tapes, began corresponding with him, and pursued becoming an instructor. His stuff worked. It's hard to explain; you have to experience it to put Sam's arguments in context.

Keith

[Zantesuken]

choke up chi. that's one of the things i tried to translate. it didn't come out right so yeah you didn't take it seriously. take a closer look. i'm not trying to offend you. you're the only one taking offense.

ifyou really are a nice guy then i think we'd have misunderstandings. and i have translated a lot of stuff in all my other posts. maybe you just don't pick it up.

[kboggess]

Zan,

I know I'm deviating from the main line of dicussion, but I'm interested in the concept you mentioned.

Can you give the Cantonese for "choke up the chi" in English romanization? While my Chinese is far from fluent (learning Mandarin), I have a number of resources to explore the definition of the concept.

Keith

[Zantesuken]

haha ok i can't give the exact sounds but
choke your chi:
"guk(or gook) lei di(as in dee) hei"

[RAF]

Let me first make it clear that I am taking no sides on this issue but I have spent many months working on calligraphy translations with native chinese with significant martial arts experience and professional translation experience and another with impeccable martial arts experience and another with some martial arts experience but tons of expertise in shufa.

Until you have tried to take some of these concepts and put them into Western terminology you don't really have any idea of how much is lost and how much is indeed unique to the language and perception of the Chinese culture. There are concepts of Chinese language which have no direct counterpart in English language and in the attempt to make the translation, something is always lost.

Having said that, there is not necessarily a clearcut advantage to being simply Chinese and translating the martial arts terminology. My Chinese wife who has no experience in the martial arts finds that many of the translations or even the Chinese characters convey little meaning to her because she does not understand the wushu terminology. Some of these characters and ideas are unique to the art itself and it becomes like interpeting rather esoteric poetry.

Again, I grant you that Weserners will have great difficulties with many of the traditional Chinese wushu concepts. However, unliess you are well-versed in traditional Chinese wushu and also well versed in the language and historical culture (not just simply being educated in Chinese but beyond the normal curriculum in both Taiwan and China) translating wushu concepts is extremely difficult for even native Chinese.

Simply embodying the Chinese thought process is no guarantee of understanding wushu. However I do concede that I as a westerner will definitely have difficulty fully grasping these concepts, even with adequate instruction and translation.

Just something we all have to live with, both Chinese and Westerners and leaves us with a lot of room for disagreement.:(

[kboggess]

RAF stated:

"Until you have tried to take some of these concepts and put them into Western terminology you don't really have any idea of how much is lost and how much is indeed unique to the language and perception of the Chinese culture."

Excellent point. While your warning of confusion and misrepresentation is valid (if I understood your post correctly), I believe that we, as Westerners, should still try to grapple with such terms for the reason that you well stated above. How will we know that such translations of often esoteric concepts are difficult unless we try? In this case, we gain insight from the journey. Maybe is it the same as saying that the fish doesn't realize it's in water until someone pulls him out on a hook.

I guess the vagueness of such terms even among the Chinese wu shu community leads to the many interpretations of terms such as "fa jing". For example, Erle's fa-jing method is pretty specific. However, my Xing Yi teacher uses fa jing simply to describe any attacking method. Each of the Five Elements in Hebei style Xing Yi has a specific intention behind it and thus a slightly different power method (at least as I was taught--xing yi is not standardized). But all are termed in execution fa-jing in contrast to xu-jing, or gathering the energy.

Fun, eh?

Keith

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

And.. there's the rub.. The difficulty of language, regardless of culture or nationality.. The "words" are not that which they point to.. First, the concepts and experiences we enjoy are, at best, difficult to internalize on an individual basis.. then, to expect clarity in language is futile.. all we can really do is point someone to a common experience and hope they derive the same experience as we..

Can i define "fajing"?.. no!!.. have i experienced it? i have experienced something beyond common muscular force, indeed.. i have been told that i express fajing well.. but i can't speak to the authenticity of that, since i can't even define it for myself..

We can transcend language, we can share experiences.. one on one, we "know" what's happening, we can be assured that something special has occurred when something akin to the descriptions of fajing rearranges our internal organs and energies.. but, to cast stones at one-another over the limits of languages is a waste of time and energy.. That being said, it is the only tool we have in this media.. with respect to others and their perspectives we can point to common experiences and possibly refine the verbage to a better signpost, to more clearly point to the desired experience.. BUT, the first stumbling block is a closed mind, one whose assertions are considered as the ONLY answer.. and, for whom, others are there either for agreement or ridicule..

I asked my mentor about fighting as a signature of progress, as a validation of Tai Chi's validity.. i asked if we should advertise Tai Chi as a fighting art.. paraphrased response: people who talk fight still not comfortable with fighting.. until they comfortable, they need to hear self sound comfortable.. when comfortable with fighting, then you can learn the real secrets, living.. while still learning how to fight/win, people show fear as talk.. too busy trying to fight to learn how to win with grace, honor and dignity.. winning easy, winning with grace, honor and dignity not easy.. (i add with compassion, too).. he said, Fajing is someting you do, not say.. (he then made a quick motion and i felt my liver gate collapsing).. see.. DO..

Fajing is same in Chinese as in english.. ya just gotta DO it..

just another perspective from the Farside.. be well..

[RAF]

Kboggess:

My post was not to discourage anyone from trying to understand and translate the concepts. Fa-jing was only one of many and fa-jing is better experienced than talked about. My experience is primarily in baji/Chen and in baji fa-jing must be understood in relationship to xu-jing => fa-jing. Now did we sit around and discuss the meaning of this? No. We practiced a lot of specialized punching and alignment in the baji system. 10 years later we go to right an article and my teacher explains what xu-jing is to fa-jing. Ahhhh, yeah it makes sense since we have trained in it.

My whole bit of writing and translating just came about in the last 3 years. For a good 10 years we never sat around intellectualizing these ideas. In fact, in our instruction we don't do it now. Later my teacher might sit down or demonstrate something. Most of my training is experiential. And all this calligraphy translation is for books and articles on the martial arts.

We don't talk much about these things when we train and are in class.

With regard to other methods of training and developing fa-jing, this or any board is not the place to learn about it.

[blacktaoist]

Why don't you guys just practice Your martial art. Who cares about the definition of Fa- Jing.

argue over a word is not going to enhanced you guys skills, or is good for ones Yi. But practicing is.

I just don't see how knowing the meaning of a word, is going to do anything extraordinary for ones skill level.

But I guess people have their own way of doing things. Anyway best of luck.

Within life you will met many internal practitioners that will turn out to be a fraud and a mountebank.:D

[kboggess]

RAF:

Sorry about misunderstanding your earlier post. So you are saying that while pursuing such intectualization is OK, we should not put too much emphasis on it--especially to where it interferes with training and gaining experience?

If so, I agree. I am merely engaging in fei hua to pass a slow Friday by a little quicker at work.

In taking the whole thread into context of the original topic, I see that the definition of fa-jing must be defined more through experience than words. With that, I will heed Black Taoist's advice and head home for a good workout.

Keith

[RAF]

Kboggess:

I saw or took no offense in anything you wrote.

Intellectualization of the martial arts was not and is not a major part of my experience. My teacher did not know my name for the first year of classes (only about 12 in the class) and I was taught primarily through other disciples and checked by him (I've been in the system since 1986 or so and formally with my teacher since 1988).

Intellectualization or reflection on philosophy and mechanics is a part of the martial arts experience but not a substitute for the actual training and bodily knowledge you develop (in my formative years, Jou Tsung Hwa helped me see this and for that I thank him). In fact I use the martial arts to escape intellectualization (my job requires it although my background was strong blue collar, i.e steel and coal mining). When I am kicking and punching or walking the circle, I sure as hell am not thinking about fa-jing, hua jing or any other jing. Do 100 moving one punches and if you are thinking about fa-jing or any other jing, then you are not really doing it. My teacher is the one in the position to judge my alignment and jing development (even this is an over intellectualization of the process).

I didn't start this writing stuff until 1996 and with some reluctance. Truth be told, my teacher would have very little patience for these kind of discussions in class.

Sam and Zan are both right. There will be concepts that few Westerners will understand, however, they may have a bodily knowledge of such concepts and in the end, I would choose that rather than an intellectual knowledge of the martial arts (that is knowing the terminology of the art but not being able to do the art). Think about poetry. Would you rather have the actual experience that the poet describes or some abstract technically correct analysis of the poetry? Maybe we can have a little of both.

By the same token, simply being Chinese is no guarantee of understanding wushu or its depths. It just isn't that popular among the youth of China. In fact, basketball is probably better known among the teenagers of China. My own Chinese nephew knows more about basketball than I do and the reverse holds for martial arts. The parents were shocked that Westerners would even be interested in the depths of the art (moving beyond the Bruce Lee movies). Of course, they might just be acting polite or giving me face. Doesn't matter,does it?

[Zantesuken]

hmmmmmm well it's not like it's not popular among the youth of china. it's that it's gone out of practicality. nobody fights a lot anymore. police and stuff are around. but if you take a look at the people who do do wushu in china those guys are hardcore. they have verticals some more than nba players.

but i rethought the point about language. i agree that maybe 60-80% of the chinese language thing can be translated but when it does get translated it is a very direct/1 way definition. i chinese many many words have many different meanings some contradicting another. it's sort of like a pun in english except with a lot more depth.

and yeah someone posted it here before. to learn martial arts it just doesn't take the practise. there's also a mental part in it which isn't the yi or anything. it's just simple understanding.

[RAF]

Let me exit myself from this thread with one last post. My Chinese teacher, who taught himself English, has said something I left out because I forgot.

If you have correct alignment and you practice over and over and over and over, you body will experience the concepts we speak of. Martial arts is not unique to the Chinese body experience. All concepts are abstractions from experience. If you practice it over and over under the eye of someone who knows, then what you label the felt body experience doesn't matter, for the labeling is nothing more than an abstraction and attempt at describing the felt experience. When two people agree on some subjectively felt experience they label it and somehow we get tricked into thinking that the concept is indeed objective.

I think understanding the language may speed up the learning curve for some. But Blackdaoist is right, too much talk and too little practice makes for bad martial arts.

Until the next time, Ciao!

[Ky-Fi]

Originally posted by RAF

If you have correct alignment and you practice over and over and over and over, you body will experience the concepts we speak of. Martial arts is not unique to the Chinese body experience. All concepts are abstractions from experience. If you practice it over and over under the eye of someone who knows, then what you label the felt body experience doesn't matter, for the labeling is nothing more than an abstraction and attempt at describing the felt experience. When two people agree on some subjectively felt experience they label it and somehow we get tricked into thinking that the concept is indeed objective.




YES!!

However, I do feel that "intellectual" discussions and ponderings are an important part of martial development---as I've been taught, that's the yin---the physical practice is the yang. They both mutually reinforce each other, and they both mutually expand each other's potential. One without the other, or having them too out of balance is going limit your develpment. As RAF said, language is not perfect, and all these "intellectual" descriptions are imperfect attempts at objectifying a certain physical experience. But, training hard and WRONG because you aren't paying attention to the theories and principles of the style is not the path you want to go down, either, IMO.

I'm a Taiji guy, and I do feel that a lot of the Taiji classics, and the theories of the style are meant as GUIDELINES that you should always be leaning towards---they're not hard and fast rules. I think the danger in interpreting these things too strictly in Taiji is that you start saying things like "you should NEVER be using ANY muscular strength", and I think this strict interpretation leads to a lot of ignorant assumptions about the inferiority of other martial arts that a student may not have any actual first-hand physical experience in.