To those who compete....

[wushu chik]

I am curious to know from those who compete, do you compete in just KF tourneys (if you are Kung Fu) or do you also compete in "Open" Tournaments.

Our school is surrounded by "Hard" Style schools, and there are a lot of "Open" Tournaments in the area. When we go to an open tournament, we notice that A LOT of the hard style schools are using tons of Kung Fu techniques, such as butterfly spins, butterflys, tornados, etc. The way that they are getting away with this is changing the names of the techiques, i.e., log roll, inverted open round kick, and an inverted side kick. I am just wondering what everyone thinks about this, and if you have the same problem!!!!

~Wen~

[joedoe]

I assume you are talking about forms competition? It is starting to happen here too - karate schools are starting to incorporate more wushu-style kicks to flash up their forms.

[wushu chik]

Good, it's not JUST me seeing this. The hard part I am having about this, is I see a LOT of the schools using them in their "Traditional" forms as well as their creative forms. I don't understand how they are getting away with this, and why it's even being allowed. We were at a tournament not to long ago, and 2 of our students were competing in Intermediate Tradition Division. There was a karate student from another school, and he was supposed to be doing a "traditional" form, but he threw a butterfly in one part of his form, and then did the move where you do a front kick, then squat, and come back up, whatever it's called!! I was TOTALLY UNAWARE that Karate had these techniques in their "TRADITIONAL" forms, and quite frankly, this is starting to **** me off!!!

But, I forgot, they can get ahold of a video anywhere on the internet, and learn the form, and then compete in the "Soft" Divisions. What the hell is going on with this? Why aren't the judges or promoters doing stuff about it?

Sorry...Just ranting....but this is becoming a HUGE problem. You don't see a bunch of "Soft" Stylists running out and buying a bunch of Karate forms on video and doing them in the "Hard" techniques.

[Starchaser107]

we used to do alot more tourneys locally theres alot of karate tkd here so tourneys are most often open because its a small island the more support the better i guess. but yeah the schools that break away from thier traditional karate roots incooperate some unorthodox elements to thier forms routines, butterfly stuff like you said chinese looking stances anyhow theres a few schools that keep it real, tkd keeps it real and a few karate schools keep it real (meaning what they do is pure) . ba$tard schools theres no telling what theyll do.
back in the day this would trouble me alot more than it does now, i just do what i do and not really too concerned with them.

[joedoe]

No offence to karate or TKD schools, but I remember this tournament I went to watch, and probably 60% of the karates entrants did the same form (the same thing can be said of tai chi or any other standardised style). Needless to say it got boring very quickly.

I can kind of understand people changing their forms to make them more flashy and try to impress the judges. However, if you do karate, then your form should reflect that.

[qeySuS]

well in TKD (at least WTF) there is no such thing as making up your own form or whatever (or doing it to music as i'ev heard has been done in some tournements), you just do the "traditional" ones (they have been subject to change by WTF so they'r not technically "traditional" but hey..).

So everyone does the same (in the same belt category) and you are judged from how you do the form, your stance, are your kicks correct? Your balance and all that.

[wushu chik]

JoeDoe...
I agree with people changing their forms to make them a little more flashy...but when you are in a traditional division, then stick with the **** form! And if you are Karate...throw in some Okanowin or something like that...NOT WUSHU..

Did you guys know that Ernie Reyes's West Coast Demo Team (or whatever they changed it to now) is taking their stuff from the Beijing Wushu Team now?? That's what he says in an article I read last week. He's basically ran out of ideas, so he's taking it from the wushu team, to spice things up a bit....WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!

[Fen]

Usually when I judge somebody like that, and they are trying to imitate Kung Fu, I just shake my head ever so slightly, and say "KUNG FU LOUSY"!!!!

[Silumkid]

Front kick, squat, front kick? Isn't that a Tae Bo exercise?

It's quite simple really...everyone knows kung fu rules but they don't want to admit it. Otherwise, their art won't be "special" or "unique" anymore. But whatever...if it all boils down to TKD or karate people doing wushu forms which amount to little more than demos on ESPN then I say F 'em and if the general populace is too ignorant to edify themselves, then F them too.

[joedoe]

I agree - if you are going to modify a form, keep the modifications true to your style. Especially if you are then going to call it traditional.

Apart from that, why does it irk you so much? Are they winning forms comps by adding those moves? If so then the issue really is in the judging.

In the tournaments here (from what I have seen, I don't really attend them often), I have noticed that adding flashy moves doesn't really seem to help them much in the rankings. The ones that do traditional forms but do them well still do better. Ultimately, just like figure skating, it is all up to the judges and how they perceive the performance.

[taijiquan_student]

"just like figure skating"

That's what makes it so messed up.

[joedoe]

That's why I chose figure skating as an example - judging how well someone does a form is always going to be subjective and it is never going to be fair for the simple reason that different styles have different ideas on what is good.

However, if the forms are standardised and there are firm guidelines on the proper way to do the form, then judging is a little less subjective. But as long as you have people from different styles doing different forms, it is almost impossible to make judging a fair exercise.

[red_fists]

Another problem I have often found with many MA Competition is that the Judges are not standardized.

Often I hear of Judges Panels being filled with friends of the Organsations Head, or being filled up with some higher ranking MA, that have not yet reached Instructor level.

In short it is a mess.

[reemul]

How does a kungfu guy judge a karate form and how does a Karate guy judge a kungfu form and how do you compare the two and what are these forms even doing in the same competition. I know some karate folks don't want to hear it, but KF and wushu forms are a he11 of a lot more complex than karate forms, and I Simply don't see how they can be judged on the same premises.

Kungfu has been getting ripped off by karate instructors in this country since the 70's thanks to the Bruce Lee craze which brought attention to CMA which, in the mainstream, was non existant at the time. This is one of the reasons some KF schools, as brought up in another thread, have reamained secluded, underground or outside the mainstream of the MA community.

[wushu chik]

I agree completely, but I don't see how this is at all going to solve anything...just staying underground and out of the mainstreem. Quite frankly, I think that's BS. You aren't proud of what you bust your ass to do? I think that's a load of crap, and besides competition is good against your peers....lets you know what you need to work on!

Just my opinion!

~Wen~

[Chinwoo-er]

My old karate master just couldn't tell between traditional and changed. He has changed our gojuryu karate to almost a kind of kickboxing. He took out the cat stance, invented katas, changed the fighting form to kickboxing style, maniplulated the footwork to shotokan style. Worse, he teaches all these to beginners and says that it is better this way. I can understand if it is his own inspirations to change them for himself. But I would have much rathered he did so for his own progress than to tell beginners that this was the real deal. Sadly, he still puts a sign on the door saying "traditional gojuryu karate".

There are also other things he did which really ticked me off. But those are more towards the maladministration and ripping off instructors and instructing helpers. Not so much as the martial arts part which this thread is about.

Hence, I left.

[Starchaser107]

ok, just out of curiousity here,
whats the purpouse of competing in a tourney , open or otherwise ?
some might consider this in itself to be shallow and just for show .
surely a competition cant judge which style of martial arts is better. So whats the whole point of it ?

hmmn , oh yeah why do wushu guys enter traditional divisions and try to compete against us traditionalists, i never seen a traditional guy go into a wushu division, and also , why do judges allow this.

also why do people who have been training for over three four five six years up enter the beginner division and compete against beginners ,
this tournament thing is messed up somebody needs to clean it up and give it new meaning
apart from all that, its fun. i must admit.

[GLW]

"ok, just out of curiousity here,
whats the purpouse of competing in a tourney , open or otherwise ? "

The training beforehand is a good thing. You have to work hard to compete and hone one or two things down as good as you can. If all you do is fighting, it is surely martial but what comprises the ART. If you compete in Form (Taolu), you try to express speed, power, timing, balance, flow, etc... and do it in an artful manner. There is also a measure of self expression.

Such competition is basically the same as a demonstration but you add people who are supposed to be qualified to say how well you did. I often hear people ask WHY compete...but these same people never ask WHY demonstrate. If you do not demo...it is a valid question....but if you do...it is the same idea.


"surely a competition cant judge which style of martial arts is better. So whats the whole point of it ? "

There are things that styles have in common...and then there are things that are special to a given style. There are basics that are in common with all styles. These things can be judged in form. In Sanda(Sanshou, sparring, whatever) the test is can you follow the safety rules and go toe to toe with the other person...and win. In a real sense, what is the point of anything...? But here, if you have trained judges, then you can actually get feedback on what you may not see yourself. In fighting, you get to work with people from other schools, different strategies, styles, etc....

And...bottom line...it is an excuse to meet other people with similar interests, see other things, and have some fun....


"hmmn , oh yeah why do wushu guys enter traditional divisions and try to compete against us traditionalists, i never seen a traditional guy go into a wushu division, and also , why do judges allow this. "

Depends on what you call wushu or traditional. Traditional DOES have some acrobatic moves. There ARE things like butterfly kicks in traditional...but NOT butterfly twists.

As for Modern Wushu, there are ONLY 10 competition routines : Changquan, Nanquan, 42 Taijiquan, Broadsword, Straightsword, staff, spear, Southern Broadsword, Southern Staff, and 42 Taiji Straightsword.

They do have open events but those are the ONLY routines that absolutely go in a Modern event. If a Modern person competes in a Traditional division and shows speed, power, good technique, etc... that are defined for the Traditional division, then they score well ...or should. If they do not, it really should not matter because their score should reflect that they were deficient. However, if the judges do not know how to score or are impressed by flash and nothing else, well....you end up with garbage anyway.

It really boils down to knowing and following the rules....they have been posted for the US Wushu Union here...



"also why do people who have been training for over three four five six years up enter the beginner division and compete against beginners "

Because they can get away with it. At US Wushu Union events, you may get away with it once...but not a second time. This is NOT fair...but at open events, there is no policing. They really only want your money.

"this tournament thing is messed up somebody needs to clean it up and give it new meaning
apart from all that, its fun. i must admit."

Check out the US Wushu Union...that is what it is trying to do.

[LEGEND]

Well this is my problem with tournaments...they are not well organized...especially forms tourneys...they need to specify what forms and have someone knowledgeable to judge a traditional form so crap like 720 kicks are not allowed cause it's not traditional...that's creative.

[GLW]

First off, if you do Chinese styles and attend Open or Karate events, prepare to be messed over.

It is NOT at all uncommon for such events to send out a call for "All Black Belts" to go to a booth and then draft people on the spot to be judges. They don't even check the background of those who show up.

Then, the judges are NOT compensated and more often than not definitely NOT qualified to judge Chinese styles at all. When you sit there and a judge in all earnestness asks you what degree black belt you have for a Chinese system..and then looks incredulous when you tell him that there are no belts in what you do....you know you have problems. When you hear a judge ask why a certain technique is in a routine - and he admits that he has never seen the weapon before and then does NOT understand that you have to do things a certain way to get power...well you get the idea.

You also have most of these events making the Chinese styles go to ONE division - Soft Styles...Can ANYONE tell me how Hung Gar or Choy Li Fut can ever be classified as soft? They then have Hung Gar competing in one group with Taijiquan...how weird is that....? The weapons...you have one class...not even long and short....spear in the same group with sword, Taiji sword, katana, ...just dumb...and aimed at getting your money.


The competition in San Diego last year was a good example of HOW TO RUN AN EVENT. The rules were posted well in advance. The divisions set. The judges were Chinese Martial Artists...screened and selected before the event.

Modern Wushu people COULD do their thing in a Traditional division...but they would not fair well if they showed flash and no substance. If they did the compulsories, they were disqualified. Inappropriate techniques were deducted for....as described in the rules.

The US Wushu Union (Wushu as in BOTH Traditional Wushu and Modern Wushu) is working on judge's training and certification... The national event is scheduled for Labor Day weekend in Florida....it is something to attend.

[wushu chik]

Yeah, what GLW said!

[reemul]

Coming from a Wushu practioner those comments come as no surprise. Contemporary Wushu was designed for competition. Shoalin kungfu was not.

I don't condem you for competing, it is the nature of your practice.
So don't condem me for following the nature of mine. If you think we waste our time training, the door is open.

[wushu chik]

Reemul...

You sure are full of **** and vinegar tonight! I NEVER said that you were waisting your time, and I never condemmed you for anything. I am sure that I bust my ass just as hard as you do. But, I don't "believe" in underground or back door schools. I think that it's there to be taken, so take it and run with it. There's nothing wrong with competition, especially when it's with your peers and you do it for all the right reasons. If you are a "Glory Hound", no, you shouldn't compete...but if you are there to make friends and have fun go for it. But it's still BS when you get ripped off because some TKD or Karate person decides to throw a kick in that he learned from watching Romeo Must Die or something like that.

But you know, to each his own.....

[firepalm]

Wushu Chik, you're down there in Oregon, where many of the events are largely part of the NBL (National Black Belt League) Open circuit. This trend in once 'Karate' stylists adding in tornados, split landings, side aerials, butterflies, etc... originated back in the eighties with the likes of Ernie Reyes West Coast Action team, George Chung in particular. It was kind of a knee jerk reaction by the hard style forms people of that time when they started to get regularly defeated by Wushu stylists like Keith Hirabayashi, Philip Wong & so on. So what did you do back then if you were a hard stylists well add an aerial cartwheel throw in a split or two.

This kind of new hybrid type of performance 'Karate' has evolved greatly since the eighties, there's almost a sort of skate boarder mentality sub culture developing around it. Now these 'Karate?' kids are pulling moves from Capoeira & gymnastics and are being influenced by Jackie Chan, breakdancing & Anime. It's not entirely my cup of tea but I must admit they have a certain type of energy & presence that I enjoy watching. They are certainly taking what they do to a new level, but I don't think it could be called Karate anymore; Freestyle to me is probably a better term. This aspect of competition is a matter of evolution (to win you have to be more flash) & it won't change no matter what (especially since these events have no real measurable judging criteria outside of stating one is a black belt).

GLW is right if you go to an Open or Karate tournament as a Chinese stylist (modern or traditional) be prepared to be messed over. If you know how to play the game (that's really what NBL & NASKA are about), and see them only as promotion or whatever then fine. However if you're doing a traditional Hung Gar, Bak Mei, Yau Kung Mun form or whatever and expect to be judged fairly & by quality judges then you have another thing coming.

As to Chinese martial arts competition, much more my preference. There are certainly good events out there, and not all are disorganized or unfair. The Contemporary Wushu side has in many ways got it more together then the traditional people (in so far as competition goes, not that Contemporary Wushu side is without problems). Here in Canada, Wushu BC has organized its own judging certification courses (basing on IWuF criteria) & for the two or three Contemporary Wushu events that happen per year judges are prepicked (to ensure quality & that there is not domination by one school in judging). The San Shou / Da is on the same route.

Some times persons will try to slide stuff by. At the recent Tiger Balms here in Vancouver, one Wushu competitor tried to compete beginner in his hand form & advanced in his weapon but was promptly told by the division director that this was not acceptable. It's just a matter of the tournament personal caring enough to watch out for such things.

Long story short for Chinese stylists quality events are out there, it's just a matter of research.

[Sharky]

I don't see the point in forms competitions.

[firepalm]

I could never see the point in baseball, basketball, football, etc... but then I realize there just not for me. Now some look at martial arts from purely a one dimensional perspective in which case they probably can't understand the martial arts for anything other then fighting. But then I've always seen the martial arts, Chinese in particular, as being multidimensional.:)

[reemul]

If you think forms competition is a means of determining growth or progress, your "Kunfu Sucks". If you need a belt to determine that you have achieved a certain level of proficiency, your "Kungfu Sucks." IF you compete in anything, know that the judges can be bias, and you may get screwed. Also if you compete understand that competition promotes the idea of a universal standard, and that standard may not represent the essense of your system. For instance I've seen guy loose a sword comp because he didn't use enough wrap-arounds...ooooouuuu. If these are the types of criteria for judging, then comp is soley for show and practicality is lost.

Now If you do forms comp, great. If you think that forms comps make you a better fighter, I think your High. I think the practice of forms make you a better fighter, but if your forms are all about pleasing the judges, you have lost the focus of your kungfu.

[GLW]

No one has to my knowledge held a gun to anyone's head and said "Fork over your money and now go out there and compete in that mean old martial arts competition"

So, if you see no value in competition, fine...but why not live and let live. I don't see a value to most Country music...doesn't mean I am going to vote to outlaw Garth Brooks....I just don't buy his stuff.

As for traditional NOT competing - That is 100% NOT true.

Traditional competition included archery, forms, horsemanship, wrestling, and fighting. In fact, it is from one of these competitions that the term 18 weapons came from.

In 1946 and 1953 there were TRADITIONAL competitions (Modern Wushu had not yet been created) that included Taolu and the other divisions. This included many styles and weapons and barehand routines....

Why do you think they call it KUOSHU in Taiwan...that is NATIONAL ART....the actual name for it is Zhong Guo Wushu (Middle kingdom martial art - Middle kingdom is China).

Competition is NOT a bad thing unless you let it rule how you train instead of making you train harder.

[HuangKaiVun]

The word "kung fu" means "excellence", not "combat".

Hence there are as many ways of achieving "excellence" as there are practitioners.

Doing an aerial wushu stunt is very difficult, jumping into combat against a resisting opponent is difficult, TRYING TO WALK STRAIGHT when you're handicapped in the legs is difficult.

By using the format of a competition to push yourself, you are getting out of it what you need to regardless of winning or losing.

The key is to appreciate yourself for what you are.

[reemul]

If you get out of it what you need win or loose, what is the point of competition. Just push yourself, wherever you happen to be.

Look I don't care if you guys are into competition, I will ocassionally watch a competition. I just hold exception to the notion that the context of organized or stanadardized competition is of unbiased benefit to all MA.

Its not a matter of live and let live. Competitions are like black belts in America. Its all about Ego. "I am the national champion of this that and the other", "I have a Black belt in TKD, karate, and Judo" :rolleyes: When meeting people like this my gut reaction is to say "I can kick your A$$! Their schools have big glass windows with meaningless Trophies stacked in them.

This is analgous to paintball
On one hand you have me and my friends with our cheap to moderately priced paint guns($175-$250) and on the other hand you have the so called professionals with guns priced from($400-$3500) setups. But when the paint starts to fly, Its the "Budget Brigade" that comes out on top. Cuz We bring the WhoopA$$! Our paintball "kungfu" is the ShizBang. It doesn't matter that the other team goes to comps and have pricy guns and a rep, cuz "I'll kick your A$$."

[GLW]

"Look I don't care if you guys are into competition"

By your responses and the vehemence you reveal in them, you obviously do care. I am at a loss as to why. It does not impact you if you choose to NOT compete. It does not impact you if you meet a person who has.

"When meeting people like this my gut reaction is to say "I can kick your A$$! Their schools have big glass windows with meaningless Trophies stacked in them. "

Why would you need to concern yourself with kicking their A$$ anyway? Why should you care if they have trophies in the window. If you view the trophies as worthless garbage, then you can smile knowingly at the storefront. The ONLY reasons those things are put there is for advertising because many people DO care about those things.

We both know that trophies are NOT necessarily any indication of the quality of a school ...just as the lack of them is also not an indication. Give them their fun....it doesn't affect you in any way.

The "I can kick your A$$" attitude, however, is unhealthy and leads to a great deal of unhappiness. Learning to let go - of anger, resentment, ego...this is something...and ideas about "kick your A$$" things are a hinderance to this path.


"Cuz We bring the WhoopA$$! Our paintball "kungfu" is the ShizBang. It doesn't matter that the other team goes to comps and have pricy guns and a rep, cuz "I'll kick your A$$.""

Again, the same attitude. Go and do what you are going to do...but don't dwell on others. A fixation in this area is counterproductive.

[firepalm]

Reemul to say that someone's 'Kung Fu sucks' because they might choose to compete sounds a little judgemental & dismissive (also a bit 'Ego' based by the person stating as if they are the final authority). Competition (martial arts, piano, sports, etc...) is for some & simply not for others. I would agree completely that a champion title (especially in N. America) is not always a accurate gauge of one's skill (martial or otherwise).

"One dimensional, haha"... anyone that might not see that Chinese martial arts are simply not only about fighting is blind. Chinese martial arts has always been for health, mental discipline, entertainment, cultural, competition, etc...

Reemul, when listening to comments like your "When meeting people like this my gut reaction is to say "I can kick your A$$!", my gut reaction is to say yeh whatever & move on.

:rolleyes:

[xie li wong]

Firepalm-
I totally agree with what you have said. I feel that there's an understanding that people just don't have about competition anymore.

Reemul-
I have a question for YOU. Did you get your tail whipped in a competition at one time? Is that why you are so AGAINST it now?? You don't need to answer this question....I think I already have my answer!!!

From a judges point of view, I feel that all the "hype" about competition is getting out of hand. Raymond Daniels, David Douglas, etc. All making videos to sell their gloriness to little kids that "Want to be just like them." It's getting out of hand.

[reemul]

To GLW: I don't care for standardized comps. If that is your thing, great. I don't care. But what I said is as follows
I just hold exception to the notion that the context of organized or stanadardized competition is of unbiased benefit to all MA.

To make my point: IF a karate school creates a comp, the rules and standards will not reflect favorably on Kungfu participants. If a Kungfu school creates a comp, the rules and standards will not reflect favorably on karate, or other kungfu participants.

Kungfu as an art is not universal in and of it self, and just as karate people are unqualified to jugde kungfu, kungfu people are not necessarrily qualified to judge other kungfu styles.

To Firepalm:
If I meet a martial artist and the first thing out of their mouth is "I have a black Belt" or "I am a ...Champion", that just tells me they have something to prove. Now I don't have anything against people with blackbelts, just those that think it will get them instant respect. My knee jerk reaction to those types in the form of wanting to say "I can Kick your A$$" is merely my way of saying that I have no respect for someone as a martial artist if the first thing out of there mouth is such a proclamation.

[GLW]

Reemul,

try taking a look at

http://www.uswushuunion.com/uswu/resources/us_rules.html

The folks there...and I have been working with them on this for a good while...

are about making the events work for chinese styles.

If you do a southern short fist style, you compete in a division that has those styles only...and the judges are people who do one of those styles. If you do northern, you have northern competitors and northern judges.

The training for what to look for in those areas is under development but the link above is for the general running of the event and how the scoring is handled.

This is NOT what you find at a NASKA or NBL or mixed event. These rules were developed for Chinese Martial Arts.

It is NOt about standardized routines. In the Traditional divisions, I can say that I have seen several competitors do the same routine...but I have also seen many different routines. The same routines...well, many styles do Gong Li Quan, many have a Hong Quan set...many northern folks do #4 Zha quan...but not all the same. These rules work...and allow for individual expression and for keeping the traditional routines there.

The big hurdle is trained judges and that is in the works....

[HuangKaiVun]

If paintball isn't a "competition", I don't know what is.

Should one forsake the "Budget Brigade" and the joy of "bringing the whoopa$$" just because one should "push himself, wherever he happens to be"? I think not!

What's wrong with kicking somebody's butt in paintball and "coming out on top"? This is "Ego" at its finest!

To me, getting the "Budget Brigade" to face off against more expensively armed opponents is "organized and stanadardized competition" in the purest sense. Even though it's "competition", I would say that it has an "unbiased benefit to all MA".

So it turns out that the biggest opponent of competitions is actually the biggest paintball competitor of us all!

[Silumkid]

I really try my best to be diplomatic most times, but reemul, you sure have been posting like a jack@ss lately. What, did your "victory" over The Willow Sword make you the new King of Kungfu? And you really need a new response other than attacking folks reading comprehension every time someone disagrees with you. With reading comp. as high as you proclaim yours to be, it shouldn't be difficult.

I'm also pretty surprised wushu chik didn't do it, so I'll do it for her. You said "Coming from a wushu practitioner..." Guess what? You are a wushu practitioner too! So am I! wushu chik is not a CONTEMPORARY wushu player. Know your subject before you speak on it. Wushu and kungfu are the different words for the same thing.

You can hold exception to whatever notion you want and then play semantics later to save face, but when you come off as "Competition has no value" then #1, I'd submit that you should reexamine your perceptions and #2, a paintball analogy in that context is just bad judgement.

"Think quickly, but speak slowly." I don't think very highly of most martial art competition myself, especially if it is the focus of a school's syllabus. But to be so outright dismissive? Open your mind a little. Your wushu/kungfu/underground super style/kuoshu/whatever you wanna call it may just improve a bit because of it.

[wushu chik]

Thanks Silum...that kinda jumped over my had....I didn't see it.

I am thinking that Reemul is just being a ******* lately, and sticking his foot in his mouth, CONSTANTLY.

I could really nail his ass to the ground for all the stuff he's posted on here about "Competition" and such, but you know...I just don't feel the need because he's just making himself look like the idiot........but i will say ONE THING....

Wushu- translation ......KUNG FU

Kung Fu- translation.......Skill learned thru hardwork, time and effort....

HMMMMMMMMM........yeah, that about raps that up!

[firepalm]

I'd like to add one thing regarding your statement,

"From a judges point of view, I feel that all the "hype" about competition is getting out of hand. Raymond Daniels, David Douglas, etc. All making videos to sell their gloriness to little kids that "Want to be just like them." It's getting out of hand."

That's your opinion & you're certainly entitled to it, however in the arena of competitive martial arts there is so little reward in relative terms to other sports (Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Michael Chang, etc...) that should a martial arts competitor find a way to make some extra coin out of his career all the power to him or her. There is so little opportunity for a martial arts competitor (of any kind) in North America, compared to say an Pro Wushu Athlete in China. Competitive martial arts in North America is so fragmented, misunderstood, misprotrayed, etc... that it is next to impossible for a good martial arts athlete to make something of a living. The few that have been successful, like the Cung Le's should be applauded (so long as they do it with dignity).

I've seen one of David Douglas's tape & it provides good information on what he does, so if some little kid likes David Douglas & wants to emulate him I can think of far worse role models. Better a David Douglas then half of the testorone driven UFC single sylable monolithic neanderthals out there.

Just my two bits....

[Merryprankster]

hmmm... this is all kind of funny. I compete all the time, have my fair share of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place finishes, along with a fair share of losses.

I'm confused...

Somebody remind me what the fuss is again?

[Paul]

Politics mostly

[firepalm]

No fuss really just discussion...:D

[reemul]

I never said competition didn't have value, just that the values proposed were rediculous.

To Silumkid:
"Coming from a wushu practitioner..." meaning contemporary wushu, which defined by the PRC is a sport, and where forms are designed for show and not practicality. I am a classical Kungfu practioner. The inferrence of Wushu meaning contemporary Wushu is commonly accepted. Also there was no disrespect intended toward Wushu Chick. I respect Wushu practioners for what they do.

To HuangKaiVun:
You just missed the point entirely.

To xie li wong:
Not entirely wrong but I wasn't angered by what happened I just saw things in a different light.

I was in a full contact comp where it was clear that I won the fight, but I was up against someone with home field advantage. The next year I took the division hands down, and after recieving my trophie for first , I threw it away on way out. My realization was that the comp made me no better a fighter than just training hard and a trophie is no measure of growth or ability. May have just been a good day, who knows.

When the whole thing with willow was happening, one thing my teacher told me was that we(members of our school and society) will only be judged by our members, and I agree. If you don't know the forms you are not capable of judging it.

I never said that competition was bad, just that there is no universal stadard that if applied to all would benefit all in an unbiased manner. This is true because some schools, such as ours refuse to be dicatated to, by those who know nothing of our system, as to what is correct or not or the "stanadard". Sure similarities exist, but the number of differences is much greater.

As for my attitude, the incident with Willow didn't change me. I was actually sick then and I don't think much of it.
I'm the same blunt impassionate "Super Sayin" I was before. If somehow you read hostility in my words, you have been smoking.

If you find value in competing, then great, just don't be so naive to think you are a better fighter because of it or because you got a trophie or a belt. The others may have just had a bad day.

[joedoe]

Everyone just needs to realise that reemul is very blunt in the way he puts things, and sometimes that can come across as arrogant/belligerent/abrasive. Once you get past that, he does have some good things to say.

On principal, I kind of agree with reemul. Competition, if done in the right way can be a good way to push yourself. It can also be a good way to meet people with similar interests. However it should not be the driving force behind your training.

I also agree that there are enough differences between styles to almost invalidate any form of impartial judging.

However, competition can be fun. If it is what you want to do, then do it. If you don't want to do it, then don't.

[xie li wong]

Firepalm~

I agree with martial artists making money off their talents and such, and I agree with kids trying to imulate them. My problem is, if you have ever met some of these guys, you would know that they don't care about ANYTHING but the money that they do make. It's all a game to them, go out there, and go for the $$.

The point I was making was that it's not for the sport anymore, it's not even for the sake of seeing who's better, it's for the money. And I know it's in ALL sports, but I was brought up knowing better, and these guys aren't giving a good lesson for kids.

And their videos...yeah, why would a karate guy be teaching how to do BUTTERFLY SPINS and such on their video?? Because their is NO PRESERVATION of anything anymore. Everyone is just out to look better than the last person...and it's getting old.

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by wushu chik
Wushu- translation ......KUNG FU

Kung Fu- translation.......Skill learned thru hardwork, time and effort...


Just a point of clarification please,

I always thought Kung Fu meant "hard training"
and Wu Shu meant "national arts"


With no disrespect, Wu Shu was designed for competition and preserving of cultural aspects of martial arts, not the martial aspects.

Wu Shu was made for friendly competition and displays.

Kung fu was frowned upon by the Red Guard in Maoist China, and Wu Shu was originated from sundry bits and pieces to replace it as a sanitised version. To take the legasy of Traditional Chinese Martial arts and combine them into one "art".

Acrobatics and flourishes. Ancient weapons. Anybody ever heard the term "fancy hands and embroidery legs?"

Kung fu players were deemed "counter revolutionary." Violent criminals, you know, dreggs of the new society. And, they had a nasty historical habit of getting involved in bringing governements down....

Many were wiped out, or driven underground (there's that word "underground" again). This is the main reason all the traditional masters moved to HK in the late 1940's.

We all knew this, right??

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Yum Cha


Just a point of clarification please,

I always thought Kung Fu meant "hard training"
and Wu Shu meant "national arts"

...

Many were wiped out, or driven underground (there's that word "underground" again). This is the main reason all the traditional masters moved to HK in the late 1940's.

We all knew this, right??

I may be wrong, but I thought that Wu Shu literally meant "Martial Arts". The general usage of the term does connote contemporary Wushu though.

And not all the traditional masters went to HK - a lot went to SE Asian countries :)

[Yum Cha]

martial arts, national arts, perhaps a native speaker can weigh in here?

Certainly, other se asian countries, and even, Australia. No debate there.

[joedoe]

Sorry, just being pedantic. I guess I am kind of tired of the perception that the only destination for the traditional masters when they fled China was HK. Stems from the fact that my late sigung actually didn't go to HK, but Malaysia :)

As for wushu, I am pretty sure that the literal translation is "martial arts". However its colloquial usage may be more 'national sport'.

[GLW]

no to the colloquial usage..that is NOT what it means.

The totally correct term is Zhong Guo Wushu -

directly translated - Middle Kingdom Martial Art.

Wushu is Martial Art. Guo or Kuo is nation or kingdom.

In China, they do not refer to Zhong Guo...they KNOW where they are. They also do not really make a distinction between modern and traditional. It is what it is.

In Taiwan, they use Kuoshu...National Art. That is really indistinct language. Chinese Calligraphy can also be Kuoshu.

Kung Fu is not good either...it means skill from time and work. In fact, one phrase "Ni Yo Gong Fu" (excuse the pinyin...the spelling may be wrong) is one way to ask if someone has time to spare.

I have been at demonstrations where the group performing was from Taiwan...they made a big deal out of doing 'Traditional' martial arts...but each one came out and did the compulsory routines from Modern Wushu. So...even those who should know better often don't.

[MightyB]

I didn't read most of your threads, so somebody may have pointed these out...

The Bubishi states that Okinawan Karate is a derivative of Southern White Crane kung fu...

Kenpo can be translated as Chuan Fa...

Some may say that Karate is getting back to its roots.

Personally I think that Karate is adding some flash to keep competitive...

Who knows, who cares?

[Excession]

When I first started Karate I didn't think tournaments could get more disorganized than they already were, at least everyone knew what they were doing in terms of their martial art. Largely the only problems were administrative! When I started Kung Fu and started to see mixed martial art competitions administration had become only half the problem.

Recently I attended a mixed martial art tournament where stylists from varying disciplines were competing against each other(Kung Fu, Tang Soo Do, Karate etc). Even the judging between Kung Fu styles was flawed as no clear boundaries were set as to what was correct or not. To make matters worse a Capoeiera(sp?) team was competing.

If someone is going to judge a martial art other than their own in a mixed martial art tournament they should know what the form/kata should look like or what the individual moves should look like. Surely that is the least a competitor should ask for. That would imply judges and instructors visiting one school from every style competing beforehand (or something to that effect) so everyone knows what is correct in a particular style and what generally should be observed. This would guarantee objectivity as judges would know exactly what to look for and competitors would know what to train for.

As to borrowing moves from other styles, if you do it you shouldn't pretend the move originated with you or your style, give credit where it is due.

Before any tournament it should be established why the tournament is being held. Is it to showcase the styles and judged on how correctly the practitioner does their form/kata, in which case you shouldn't be borrowing moves. or is it to see who does the best looking kata/form, in which case style cannot be made an issue, as Kung Fu is inherintly flashier than Karate.

If a strict focus is kept on what is trying to be achieved through the competition and a structured implementation of those goals, there should not be anybody complaining about being cheated.

[reemul]

If tournaments stated their purpose before hand they wouldn't make as much mone because the purpose would favor some over others, this goes back to the idea that a universal standard could be applied to a competition and would be impartial. Which cannot be done. There are far too many differences among styles. It has always been like this. That is why I never entered forms comp. In full contact events at least you can tell to some extent how effective your performance was that day.

[HuangKaiVun]

Competitions are SUPPOSED to favor some folks over others.

Whether it be through legitimate or illegitimate means, there are "winners" and "losers" in every competition as far as the judges go.

The ones who complain about competitions are those who can't accept of the PARTIALITY of judging. Unfortunately, that's the way it is in real life (e.g. job searches) as well.

In life, one has options. You can learn to play the "contacts" game, you can walk away from the game entirely, or you can play the game and howl when things don't go your way. Take your pick.


I have been on both winning and losing ends of competitions, so I learned long ago that no amount of training or skill can overcome a judge's decision.

[reemul]

To Huang..:
What was said is competition favors styles or systems, not inidividual performances. If competition favors style what is the point of other styles showing up. Ultimately you have both individual and style bias plagueing tournaments.

The Big picture with all this Tournament B.S. are the orgs thast run em. These organization in the name of preserving the arts are just doing what big businesses do. Try to gain monopoly. These Orgs with all their standards have a tendency to propogate generalizations such as all kungfu can be broken down into its basic components to be judged impartially. Which brings me back to what my teacher said "If you don't know the form, you are not qualified to judge it" Breaking forms into their base components changes the nature of the form from high to low form. Back to my Point, here in America it is easy for broad generalization to be blindly accepted. Next thing you know someone is being called a fraud and every MA'ist you meet is quick to start name dropping to impress you.

[HuangKaiVun]

And why do you even CARE, reemul?

You practice your style, you don't go by the opinion of others, and you don't compete in these competitions. What would you gain as a martial artist by trashing big competitions and those who derive benefits from competing in them?

From what it seems, your beef is "being called a fraud and every MA'ist you meet is quick to start name dropping to impress you." You rail against it as if somebody calling you a fraud or name dropping will take away your ability or something!

YOU go on ranting and trying to kick everybody's ass. That seems to be the way your sifu taught you, and there's nothing wrong with that.

The rest of us will go on cheering each other on as we try to make ourselves all better martial artists in our own way. I probably won't be competing any time soon, but rest assured I'll be in the stands cheering!

[reemul]

Did you just come over off the Boat or what? MY beef is with people like you inferring what you think is being said rather than comprhending what is actually being said.

I have never been called a fraud, nor my school, nor my teacher.
Name dropping doesn't prevent me or my school from doing anything. We do what we do regardless. This doesn't change the fact that MA organizations and competitions try to put everything in a nice little bubble and sell it to the uninformed as the gospel and everything outside that bubble is wrong.

Name dropping is an attempt to impress. The nature of my school is growth and progress come through work. The point being, you will not gain my respect or the respect of others like me, by name dropping.

[GLW]

"The Big picture with all this Tournament B.S. are the orgs thast run em. These organization in the name of preserving the arts are just doing what big businesses do. Try to gain monopoly. "

Having been involved in this stuff for a LONG time...I was the technical director at the FIRST Chinese Martial Arts only competition in the US... I can say unequivocally that one of th biggest problems are in the organizations but NOT how you think.

Everyone likes to complain but no one likes to do the work. Then, you end up with people who will take the work but want to control everything and take money for it. This has NOT worked.

People complain about the rules, but when you tell them to make a suggestion on how to improve the rules, the same people do nothing..but continue to complain.

Sound familiar.....

If you want things to improve and develop, you have to put some skin in the game. Willing to do so? Contact the folks at the US Wushu Union (For US folks - this is for Traditional and Modern Wushu).


"These Orgs with all their standards have a tendency to propogate generalizations such as all kungfu can be broken down into its basic components to be judged impartially. Which brings me back to what my teacher said "If you don't know the form, you are not qualified to judge it" "

That is ABSOLUTE BS. The ONLY time knowing the form truly becomes an issue is when you get into the extremely advanced categories of competitors. I am talking at the world class level...they type of people who could demo in China and get ovations.

Guess what... In more than 15 years of judging, I have yet to see ANYONE at this level in ANY national level competition.

Northern styles have certain similarities. They all have certain similar basics. How can you get a high score if you have problems with these basics...answer is YOU CAN'T...and this is where the deductions are made.

Out of 10 points - 6 points are technique - do you do your stances, kicks, punches, etc...correctly from the flow of your form. Sounds simple but many competitors do not do this. I rarely see more than 5 out 6 points awarded for this. do the math...that is 83% of the level. AN 8.3 if that were all you evaluated.

Then you have 2 points for speed and power. This is not a big deal either. You can see if a person doing a form is approaching combat speed. You can also tell if they have power in each and every technique. Then, you can tell the rough percentage of how many techniques vs how many times they had that speed and power....Again, I have rarely seen more than 1.5 out of 2 points on this...Do the math...that is 75% ---A 7.5 if that were all you did.

The last 2 points is for spirit, the routine (how it is put together), the fire in the belly....

This is the most subjective area...but you can tell who has the spirit. who has the fire....and only about 1/3 of this is the choreography of the routine....this is the ONLY place where you would truly need to know the routine...so if you were to take that piece out....you still have only 0.7 out of 10 points that depends on knowing the routine. That is pretty small.

I have also seen about only 75 to 80% of this area being achieved....so that means 1.5 to 1.6 max from personal experience...

Adding it all together...5 + 1.5 + 1.6 = 8.3 is an average level for most of the advanced competitors in the US. The highest score I have ever seen was around a 9.3 using this evaluation method.

There are events that have 9.9 scores...these events ALWAYS have unqualified judges.

"Breaking forms into their base components changes the nature of the form from high to low form. "

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN....you do your routine...the way you always should...and let the chips fall where they may...this is the nature of competition.

"Back to my Point, here in America it is easy for broad generalization to be blindly accepted. Next thing you know someone is being called a fraud and every MA'ist you meet is quick to start name dropping to impress you."

Maybe...but what besides saying "We don't compete...and We don't demo...etc...." are you doing. The lack of open forums for people to see things is what causes frauds to proliferate. Con-men LOVE communities where no one will say the truth and where no one can see one thing next to another. This is what you are suggesting. This will also cause many more things to be lost.

Don't compete...fine. Don't propagate the idea that you can't evaluate a performance fairly. That is BS. Everytime you see someone demo...you evaluate their performance. You can watch 5 people and say who you think did the best to the worst. Adding criteria for this statement is what the judging guidelines and rules are about. Having 5 scoring judges and a head judge is the way it is done. The head judge does certain deductions but the scoring judges do most of it. The low and high score is dropped out...this prevents wacko scoring.....

Then, if the difference from the low to high score is 0.7 or more, there is a mandatory conference and rescoring...this is to insure consistency...sometimes, you end up with judges who agree to disagree...hen the chips and scores fall where they may.

The head judge is responsible for making sure that the judges are doing their job correctly. If a judge is screwing up, it is the head judges responsibility to replace that judge.

It can and does work. It requires trained judges and people who are honest. The big problem now is training and ethics. There are few trained judges and one or two of those who are trained don't know how to be honest... BUT...this is one of the issues that the US Wushu Union is working on. There have been records kept on judges...judges who are messed up are making a record of their failings...and they will be adjusted....soon.

It can and does work.

[reemul]

People complain about the rules, but when you tell them to make a suggestion on how to improve the rules, the same people do nothing..but continue to complain.

I'm not complaining about the rules, I object to the concept in gerneral that a universal standard or rules can be applied to something as vastly differring as MA.


The ONLY time knowing the form truly becomes an issue is when you get into the extremely advanced categories of competitors. I am talking at the world class level...they type of people who could demo in China and get ovations.

So the org you are referring to is only able to judge begginers?
If you don't know the form, how do you seperate the techniques?
How do you know the purpose of the technique, How do you know the mindset that is applied, how do you know the proper weight distribution? How do you know if a leap was supposed to be a hop? I haven't even begun to get anal. The answer to this is, you don't. Yeah you might be able to say oohh theres a cat stance, but wait is it supposed to be a shaolin cat, close cat, middle? Don't know the form then you don't know. Oh wait theres a bow stance or was it supposed to be a bow shot, bow or shaolin kneel. How many times can this be done in a form? Everywhere there is a stance, which is through the entire form. Don't know the form, then ya can't say and if you can't determine something as simple as this how can you judge a form you have never seen?

[HuangKaiVun]

Good questions, reemul.

In my experience, judges DON'T and often CAN'T know. Period.


That's why competitions are only as important as one chooses to make them in his own mind.

[GLW]

"So the org you are referring to is only able to judge begginers? "

Please read for content.

First, I told you that the LEVEL of person competing in more than 15 years of experience negates your argument. It is NOT that they can't judge advanced... It is simply that it has NOT been necessary. The skill level is simply NOT there.

There are a number of people who have self-perception disorders.


"If you don't know the form, how do you seperate the techniques?
How do you know the purpose of the technique, How do you know the mindset that is applied, how do you know the proper weight distribution?"

Give me a break....this statement is assinine. Each of the judges is in their own right a teacher and has a number of years of study and practice. Sorry, but if you do a move to Gong Bu- palm strike, it is pretty obvious what it does. It is the competitors job to show in their approach the spirit and application.

If you are saying that a trained person can't see this without KNOWING your particular version of a form, you are saying that it is impossible to evaluate ANYONE on how they do any routine. I don't buy it. I KNOW better. You yourself MUST know better because you obviously think you are qualified to judge who is and is not good in your own school and style.

I hate to break it to you but the ideas in most CMA styles are common. There are no secrets except practice. If it were so hard to discern the applications why would people hold back things... There are only so many ways for the body to move.

Most people can't even grasp the concept of "Shou Yen Shenfa Bu" (The body working as a unified whole)

You can go to ANY demonstration and watch ANY group of performers and come up with an evaluation of who was best to worst. You can then take 10 trained people and put them together and do the same thing...guess what...their evaluations will agree at better than 80%. This states up front that such judging is not only possible but that we each and every one of us do it on a daily basis. It is human nature. You did it yourself when you selected a school to learn from. If you can select a school and then lay claim that your teacher is great starting with absolutely NO first hand knowledge, why is it unbelievable that you can put KNOWLEDGEABLE practicioners in judging capacities with a common lexicon and they can produce results that are 90% or better reproducable?

This garbage about Traditional not being possible on this has been going on for a long time. It has always been garbage. You and everyone else judge the merits and quality of your teachers, performers, fighters, classmates, and so on.

In my experience, the ones who complain most about judging are the ones who are NOT that good but think they are - and when I was a child, we called them SORE LOSERS.


"How do you know if a leap was supposed to be a hop? I haven't even begun to get anal. The answer to this is, you don't. Yeah you might be able to say oohh theres a cat stance, but wait is it supposed to be a shaolin cat, close cat, middle? Don't know the form then you don't know. Oh wait theres a bow stance or was it supposed to be a bow shot, bow or shaolin kneel. How many times can this be done in a form? Everywhere there is a stance, which is through the entire form. Don't know the form, then ya can't say and if you can't determine something as simple as this how can you judge a form you have never seen?"


It is NOT the be all end all.... When you reach a certain level the form is a method of expression. I have seen my teacher do one sword routine a couple of dozen times. I have also had them teach me that routine. They teach it one way. I have NEVER seen them perform it the same way twice. Their statement is that once you have the sword (as in being one with it) the form was fluid.

I can tell if you know what you are doing. You probably can as well. If you come to do Taijiquan, do you want me to watch for 16 minutes as you do the long form...Or....as in most events, I limit you to 3 to 4 minutes. You show me your best and I evaluate. I can tell your relative level in the first 15 to 30 seconds. I can also tell you what you need to improve on in that amount of time. Most good judges can. But...I have studied northern and southern and Taijiquan. I would never judge Bagua - I do NOT do that style.

It is 100% doable but you have to come out of your well, Mr. Frog.

[reemul]

Give me a break....this statement is assinine. Each of the judges is in their own right a teacher and has a number of years of study and practice. Sorry, but if you do a move to Gong Bu- palm strike, it is pretty obvious what it does. It is the competitors job to show in their approach the spirit and application.

First of all kungfu systems are not just variations of each other, that simply have different interpretations of the same movements. I might be able to see your point if that were the case. Take our school for examaple. When our Teachers Father and Grandfather came to the U.S. via Hawaii, the system was not taught to anyone outside the family and it wasn't prostituted for money. Now grandpa was the Head of the system and Granpa restructured the system within I think a 10 year period prior to leaving China. Some forms I admit are our families interpretations of other forms. However our family forms, forms belonging to our system and only our system and not widely known (being that we are a classical system) except among members, are of original design. By this rationale the only ones capable of judging or critiquing the forms are members of our small and secluded society. I grant you, that you can make a call as to whether it was asthetically pleasing, but on a technical standpoint you really don't know what your looking at aside from the small things that kungfu systems have in common.

I think your org has some pretty inflatted ego's to think you have tthe ability or the right to judge others based on your limited experience, and yes 15 years is limited. Now if you paid attention to the story above you may notice some consistancy as to why our school doesn't compete at least as a school,


When our Teachers Father and Grandfather came to the U.S. via Hawaii, the system was not taught to anyone outside the family and it wasn't prostituted for money.

This is something our school has consistantly upheld.

Also, is it my imagination or did you just call me a loser because I don't agree with your position.?

[GLW]

“First of all kungfu systems are not just variations of each other, that simply have different interpretations of the same movements. I might be able to see your point if that were the case. “


Exactly how does any system differ? The basic theories are ALL the same. A punch…there are many classifications but they all have basic principles of alignment. Wrist, elbow, flow with the torso, waist, connection to the stance. If you do northern, you extend more, you elongate...In southern, you tend to keep more square. There are exceptions and this is what a judge must know. The people who do this are exposed to a number of systems. If you have Not been to such an event, you are speaking out of school. You have NO information with which to judge. In fact, when folks like Jeff Bolt started to put this type of thing together over 15 years ago the idea was (1) Why can China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong do something but in the US, the only place you can see or compete is in a venue that is totally biased toward Karate/Tae Kwon Do and (2) Surely if you get a nuber of well respected folks together there can be something done to improve and promote the art as a whole





“Take our school for examaple. When our Teachers Father and Grandfather came to the U.S. via Hawaii, the system was not taught to anyone outside the family and it wasn't prostituted for money. “



Let me get this straight, YOU are accusing an entire organization of people of having an ego problem – then you IMPLY with this type of a sentence that people who do not believe as you do have been duped or are prostituting there art. Check into the history of the Nanjing Central Guoshu Institute and Chin Woo. They are both about what I am talking about. You are saying that people who were with those groups and still are are prostituting their art. You are also saying the same thing about a number of people – like Yang Jwing Ming – whos students compete…and whos own children compete and do well…. In THESE events. Are they prostituting themselves?





“I grant you, that you can make a call as to whether it was asthetically pleasing, but on a technical standpoint you really don't know what your looking at aside from the small things that kungfu systems have in common. “


That is a major assumption on your part. Your argument is not too far from the idea that “Our techniques are too deadly” in applications that has hurt Chinese Martial Arts. The percentage of techniques that truly differ from style to style within a classification of styles is NOT that big. Get around and do some comparison with some of the qualified instructors in the country. You will find more in common than not. People who support these things include the likes of : Yang Jwing Ming, Liang Shouyu, Adam Hsu, Brendan Lai, Tai Yim, Huang Chienliang, Yang Yang, Nick Gracenin, Chan Poi, Jimmy Wong, Hawkins Cheung, Wong Tat Mau, and I could go on…. Are you going to say that your qualified more than these folks to say…. All of them have encouraged students to compete and have at one tie or another been actively involved in such events. They are NOT the be all – end all for training, but they ARE an opportunity to learn and grow…and have fun. Get feedback. As with anything, if you were to find the feedback not to your liking, you are free to ignore it….




“I think your org has some pretty inflatted ego's to think you have tthe ability or the right to judge others based on your limited experience, and yes 15 years is limited. “

That shows your lack of reading comprehension. I have been working on the judging part and such for 15 + years. Actual training…a lot longer. Those who have had input…well, for example, my teachers, more than 50 years of experience EACH.

If someone goes to a competition, the judges by DEFINITION have the right – and the responsibility – to judge. BUT….You are the one showing ego. You are the one saying that such competition has no validity. In reality, you are saying YOU don’t do it. Fine. But, you should NOT condemn others for working on something. Don’t compete…fine. But don’t insult others as you have done. Your statements on this HAVE been assinine. You have little to no personal experience with this area. You also do a ‘Family’ style and have in previous posts claimed to know a lot about what is right and wrong with others. YOUR posts betray you. There is MUCH more ego for you than anything I have posted on this subject.

HAVE YOU EVEN CHECKED OUT THE WEB SITE I POSTED? Asked them questions?






“Now if you paid attention to the story above you may notice some consistancy as to why our school doesn't compete at least as a school, “

You are TOO TRADITIONAL from what you are saying. Meaning anyone who doesn’t agree with you is prostituting their art. Given that the host of this board attends, reports on, and supports the events I am talking about, I would question your conclusions. Sounds like ego to me.





“Also, is it my imagination or did you just call me a loser because I don't agree with your position.?”


Reading comprehension again. What I said was

“In my experience, the ones who complain most about judging are the ones who are NOT that good but think they are - and when I was a child, we called them SORE LOSERS. “

Where is your name here? Never met you. Don’t know if you have ever competed. Don’t care. I KNOW you have never competed in a USAWKF or USCMAC or US Wushu Union event. Those who I have seen at such events who complain about judging – well, if there are instances where there was unfair judging, I was right along with them…as an official, complaining. But, in m experience, the ones who are the MOST vocal display the poorest level of maturity and sportsmanship. Where is your name here? I did NOT say anything about you. However, if you wish to take offense, I can’t stop you.

You did NOT address a single issue about the human nature of evaluating and judging anytime you see something. You did NOT address the fact that you judge others when you see them do something…or when they post..or when you meet them for your ‘friendly’ matches. Why is it that it is so far fetched that what EVERYONE does as a natural mental activity can’t be done in a standard manner?

[reemul]

First of all, I don't care what people do. If they want to compete, they compete. This however is a forum in which the topic was brought up as to why forms competitions are plagued with bias.

You are TOO TRADITIONAL from what you are saying. Meaning anyone who doesn’t agree with you is prostituting their art. Given that the host of this board attends, reports on, and supports the events I am talking about, I would question your conclusions. Sounds like ego to me.

No, What I'm saying is that we actually try to follow the nature of the system in which we train. Our teacher has always said "The only competition here, is with yourself."


“Take our school for examaple. When our Teachers Father and Grandfather came to the U.S. via Hawaii, the system was not taught to anyone outside the family and it wasn't prostituted for money. “

I didn't imply that anyone had been duped or that anyone wasn't following the nature or ideal of there system. I merely stated here that these two men came to the U.S. and didn't put a yellow pages add offerring MA lessons, however I did leave out they were of the Shaolin order.

I said earlier, that if it is the nature of your art to compete, then by all means do so. But don't label those who don't believe in an unbiased universal standard as Losers. Now as the proprieters of our system it is unlikely we will ever grant an organization outside of ours the authority to judge us, but then we wont' be competing in said events anyway so it doesn't matter.

As for me inferring anything, I only speak on behalf of my school and what we are about. I accept the fact that others may dissagree with me and that is their right and they are not wrong for doing so. Your the one making broad gerneralizations that all kungfu is basically the same and a universal standard can be applied in an unbias manner. 1000's of kungfu systems have been in development for centuries and now you claim someone with 50 years of training is going to package it up in a nice neat little bundle. Well whatever.

Do what you want, just don't look down upon me or anyone else cuz we don't buy into it.

[GLW]

First of all, I don't care what people do. If they want to compete, they compete. This however is a forum in which the topic was brought up as to why forms competitions are plagued with bias.
quote:

You are TOO TRADITIONAL from what you are saying. Meaning anyone who doesn’t agree with you is prostituting their art. Given that the host of this board attends, reports on, and supports the events I am talking about, I would question your conclusions. Sounds like ego to me.



No, What I'm saying is that we actually try to follow the nature of the system in which we train. Our teacher has always said "The only competition here, is with yourself."

quote:

“Take our school for examaple. When our Teachers Father and Grandfather came to the U.S. via Hawaii, the system was not taught to anyone outside the family and it wasn't prostituted for money. “


“I didn't imply that anyone had been duped or that anyone wasn't following the nature or ideal of there system. I merely stated here that these two men came to the U.S. and didn't put a yellow pages add offerring MA lessons, however I did leave out they were of the Shaolin order. “

No…your very first post here a long time ago stated that and YOU stated that just about everyone else was doing it wrong. I will Not bother with digging through the past posts but your record was there in writing. In your defense, you HAVE mellowed over time. You are ALMOST willing to live and let live (Which is my point).


“I said earlier, that if it is the nature of your art to compete, then by all means do so. But don't label those who don't believe in an unbiased universal standard as Losers. Now as the proprieters of our system it is unlikely we will ever grant an organization outside of ours the authority to judge us, but then we wont' be competing in said events anyway so it doesn't matter. “

I did Not label anyone as a loser. I DID state that in my experience in things MORE than martial arts, those who complain the most about rules and judging are the least capable. Until you have experienced the hubris of some people – and then seen what they actually do I doubt you can appreciate this. It boggles the mind.

In actuality, the idea of competitions (at least the CMA only events) was to create a venue that could bring many styles together and get people in the CMA community talking with each other. When I started in this many years ago, ALL CMA schools were underground. There was a large amount of mafia connection in it. No one talked to each other. What people passed off as Kung Fu was more often than not trash. This has changed…and in large part due to opening things up. Competitions and demonstrations do a lot for exposing a number of frauds…but only if you have the judging run by people who know something. Having an opportunity to see a number os people from different schools side by side to compare….works wonders.



“As for me inferring anything, I only speak on behalf of my school and what we are about. I accept the fact that others may dissagree with me and that is their right and they are not wrong for doing so. Your the one making broad gerneralizations that all kungfu is basically the same and a universal standard can be applied in an unbias manner. 1000's of kungfu systems have been in development for centuries and now you claim someone with 50 years of training is going to package it up in a nice neat little bundle. Well whatever. “

You assume that they did NOT take things from those years. Here you are getting VERY close to insulting someone’s lineage. Don’t go there. I don’t think it is worth the effort and you know very little of anyone here. Why did you choose to address MY lineage instead of address the people I listed…like Lai, Yang, Hsu, etc…. Was it easier since I did NOT give a teacher name? Care to explain why those people I listed support this effort and you wish to insult them. Yang Jwing Ming – well known on this board…has supported this effort from the beginning as well as having his own children compete. You wish to explain how they are wrong?


“Do what you want, just don't look down upon me or anyone else cuz we don't buy into it.”

Now you are changing your tune. YOU are the one who says that such things have NO validity. That is the same thing as saying that all of you people are full of it and only you know the correct way. I am simply pointing out – rather vehemently – that you are entitled to your opinion and to Not join in…but not to insult people who don’t believe as you do.

To further clarify: The value of competition for any competitor is the training BEFORE the event. Putting stress on yourself for a goal raises the bar a bit. While most people claim they do not need this (I am one of them) I can tell you that the level and intensity of practice before something like a major demo or event DOES increase. When a person walks in after preparing and goes to compete, they have received 90% of the benefits before they do one thing. The remaining 10% is the experience of stress and any feedback they can get. If they focus on the medal…they are missing the point.

Getting another person’s unbiased opinion is valuable….seeing someone else do something and seeing a different flavor…valuable. Talking to a teacher that is not your own…and getting a different view point….can open your eyes to things your teacher has said but you did not understand.

Is there a level of subjectivity to it – yes…as with all things. Is it as you said, impossible – no, the level of subjectivity has been minimized. It is done by assuming that all competitors START with a perfect score (10) and LOSE points by obvious mistakes….and there are many.

But, competition is NOT necessary or desirable for everyone. It is a way to YI WU WEI YOU – Through martial arts, make friends – people with a warrior spirit have much in common and tend to band together – this allows that. However, if someone does not like such things, no big deal…as long as they do not insult those who do.

THIS last piece is why all of the discussion. Your words were insulting to a large group of people. All it really takes is to say…fine ..but that is not for me. Why…for you I really don’t care. Just as I don’t care what style you do..if you like it, fine…as long as you do not insult others or stand up and say yours is the only way. No one has all of the answers…and if you ever found someone who did – I think they would be more of a pain in the A$$ instead of a guidepost.

[reemul]

No…your very first post here a long time ago stated that and YOU stated that just about everyone else was doing it wrong. I will Not bother with digging through the past posts but your record was there in writing. In your defense, you HAVE mellowed over time. You are ALMOST willing to live and let live (Which is my point).

Hey punk, if your gonna accuse me saying something you, back it up, don't come in here and make an accusation without a foundation. It is clear in resent post that you infer what is not being said on a regular basis.

I can only speak on behalf of our system and I don't apply our standards to other schools. I will say this though, to get into the Shaolin order prior to its recent PRC makeover, was no small task. I just find it odd that after the dissolution of the temple by the PRC that members of the order who fled China would "Pimp" the art to anyone with the cash. So in this instance I am making a statement about the state of the Shaolin arts in general.


I did Not label anyone as a loser. I DID state that in my experience in things MORE than martial arts, those who complain the most about rules and judging are the least capable. Until you have experienced the hubris of some people – and then seen what they actually do I doubt you can appreciate this. It boggles the mind.
in your own words not mine

“In my experience, the ones who complain most about judging are the ones who are NOT that good but think they are - and when I was a child, we called them SORE LOSERS. “
I did not insult your lineage, and whether your lineage is lagit or not, it does not enable you to judge other systems unless if maybe they are closely related to yours.


You assume that they did NOT take things from those years. Here you are getting VERY close to insulting someone’s lineage. Don’t go there. I don’t think it is worth the effort and you know very little of anyone here. Why did you choose to address MY lineage instead of address the people I listed…like Lai, Yang, Hsu, etc…. Was it easier since I did NOT give a teacher name? Care to explain why those people I listed support this effort and you wish to insult them. Yang Jwing Ming – well known on this board…has supported this effort from the beginning as well as having his own children compete. You wish to explain how they are wrong?

I told you once, name dropping does not impress me. These people have nothing to do with our system, and they hold no authority over us. I don't care if they support you or not, It has nothing to do with us. They compete for whatever reasons they wish to. Whats your point.


THIS last piece is why all of the discussion. Your words were insulting to a large group of people. All it really takes is to say…fine ..but that is not for me. Why…for you I really don’t care. Just as I don’t care what style you do..if you like it, fine…as long as you do not insult others or stand up and say yours is the only way. No one has all of the answers…and if you ever found someone who did – I think they would be more of a pain in the A$$ instead of a guidepost.

Your words were insulting to a large group of people as well mr. hollier than thou. The thread was about why there is so much bias and pollitics in forms comp. Then you came in and got on your high horse about your org being the one true guiding light in a mass of diversity. My personal belief on competition is that it takes away from what I am training for. Rules and standards narrow ones scope and that is what orgs do, they narrow the scope of MA everything outsides of "Their" scope is wrong. But if your into that, knock yourself out.

By the way this is a forum, we have discussions here, no one said you have to sugar coat everything. No one here knows me and has any reason to take anything I say as value. Given this, If some of my words sting, then there must some amount of truth to them for nothing hurts more than the truth. If I'm am just full of $hit no one should be affected by it.

[firepalm]

Goodness gracious,

GLW, its really quite elementary my dear Watson, based on the evidence presented Reemul has little interest in competition (having written it off after only one event) and therefore one can probably presume even less actual firsthand knowledge or experience (opinions of this nature are a dime a dozen). Having attended events in China, Hong Kong, Taiwan & the US, I know that Jeff's events are first rate in the North American scheme of things. My guess is Reemul has never attended one in fact, now I'm only speculating, but he has probably only ever attended an Open Karate type event - in which case it would be easy to understand why he may have a bad taste in his mouth regarding competition. Open competitons such NASKA or NBL events are simply games and only good for promotional purposes if one chooses to go that route. Not every Chinese style only event in North America is that good but certainly the better route then Open Karate events.

Reemul I think your mention of applying universal standards for the benefit of all martial arts was incorrect in the context of the discussion with GLW. He is speaking of applying standards for Chinese style events. The ones he speaks of such as Jeff Bolt's events do subdivide the various aspects of CMA down ie; Contemporary Wushu, Traditional/Classical Wushu (Kung Fu), Internal styles, San Da / Shou, Sticky Hands, Push Hands, etc... Something such as Traditional / Classical forms competition will be further subdivided into Northern, Southern Long Hand, Southern Short Hand, Short Weapon, Long Weapon, etc... Furthermore judges for these events are picked based on their knowledge of the events they judge (there's no pulling a Kenpo Black Belt from the stands moments before the competition in these events). The group GLW speaks of (US Wushu Union) is also making a concerted effort to provide judging clinics, which is far cry more then those that like to stand on the sidelines and b!tch.

Reemul it sounds to me as if you're taken with your system of choice & your instructor which is great. However by way of your earlier post about people's Kung Fu sucking if they choose compete & the later one about pimping one's art sound as if you are trying impose your set of values on others. If competition isn't your thing fine but don't knock someelse who might choose to compete. Or in the case of GLW who is involved in the process of trying make competitions better don't be so quick to dismiss what they do when apparently you don't have much foreknowledge of US CMA competition scene outside of your limited spectrum.

Just my two cents...
:cool:

[reemul]

Well now let me help you remove your foot from your mouth...
No I havn't only been to one competition, the one I mentioned was simply the one that made me realize that progress isn't determined by winning a trophie it is made through work. That is the defining priciple of the term kungfu. The only persons who can determine whether I have made progress through my system of study is my instructor and myself. Actually the competition I went to was a MMA event, not that point sparring crap. There was no forms competition, and even if there were I have never valued forms competition for many reasons, some have been mentioned already.

Thats great if Jeff's competitions are held in high regard. I am still unwilling to narrow the scope of my training to fit into the guidlines of that org or any other just to bring home a meaningless trophie. In short I simply don't train for competition.

Reemul it sounds to me as if you're taken with your system of choice & your instructor which is great. However by way of your earlier post about people's Kung Fu sucking if they choose compete & the later one about pimping one's art sound as if you are trying impose your set of values on others. If competition isn't your thing fine but don't knock someelse who might choose to compete. Or in the case of GLW who is involved in the process of trying make competitions better don't be so quick to dismiss what they do when apparently you don't have much foreknowledge of US CMA competition scene outside of your limited spectrum.
I didn't impose any rules or standards on any one, I am not in that posistion. The standards that govern my training are those handed down by the masters of our system. All I have done was give my opinion on the matter. The area's that I absolutly object to were, the implications that those not familiar with our system are somhow qualified to judge it.

[GLW]

“Hey punk, if your gonna accuse me saying something you, back it up, don't come in here and make an accusation without a foundation. It is clear in resent post that you infer what is not being said on a regular basis. “

First, the word is RECENT…or do you truly resent logic being applied? Loss of temper – loss of emotional control. Amusing.

Second, I am looking at your history as far back as I recall. It reveals a closed mind.




“I can only speak on behalf of our system and I don't apply our standards to other schools. I will say this though, to get into the Shaolin order prior to its recent PRC makeover, was no small task. I just find it odd that after the dissolution of the temple by the PRC that members of the order who fled China would "Pimp" the art to anyone with the cash. So in this instance I am making a statement about the state of the Shaolin arts in general. “


But you DID speak to what others do. You also implied that those out of your system were in some way inferior to what you do. The Shaolin temple is NOT an issue here. None of those I mentioned are affiliated with them. Those working on this effort are from Taiwan, Hong Kong, PRC, Maylasia, etc…





“In my experience, the ones who complain most about judging are the ones who are NOT that good but think they are - and when I was a child, we called them SORE LOSERS. “

Where is YOUR NAME in here. I spoke of my personal experience. Have YOU ever competed in an event where I judged? From what you say, I sincerely doubt it. Therefore, YOU are outside of my experience. But if you choose to take an insult, so be it. Moving on…






“I told you once, name dropping does not impress me. These people have nothing to do with our system, and they hold no authority over us. I don't care if they support you or not, It has nothing to do with us. They compete for whatever reasons they wish to. Whats your point. “

The people I mention are well respected. They support standardized judging and competitions. They do a myriad of styles – Most all traditional. The point is, that you state that such things are impossible. I display evidence to the contrary. YOU are the one speaking in absolutes. Therefore, logic dictates that if you say an absolute and I can display it is NOT absolute, you are speaking incorrectly. Simple point…

Other points I CAN make would be counterproductive. I choose not to go there out of self-restraint. Can you demonstrate the same level of control?





“Your words were insulting to a large group of people as well mr. hollier than thou. The thread was about why there is so much bias and pollitics in forms comp. Then you came in and got on your high horse about your org being the one true guiding light in a mass of diversity.”

Actually, in the US, the US Wushu Union does happen to be the only organization working to improve things at this point in time. There are several other organizations that have a national presence. They all have some serious problems with ethics. By the way, the word is POLITICS and HOLIER.

You were the one who stated that the work many have been involved in for possibly longer than you have been training was of no value. The people I am referring to embrace diversity and are NOT the NASKA NBL types.




“My personal belief on competition is that it takes away from what I am training for. Rules and standards narrow ones scope and that is what orgs do, they narrow the scope of MA everything outsides of "Their" scope is wrong. But if your into that, knock yourself out. “

The key word is PERSONAL. You are entitled to that. Yet you take it from the personal to a broader scope. This is where you err. You refuse to accept that there is another way from yours. I do not talk down those who do not get involved in things…provided they do not hinder efforts or insult those who work for something. You DID insult many. Simple point. Do what you wish…but live and let live. Quite simple.




“By the way this is a forum, we have discussions here, no one said you have to sugar coat everything. No one here knows me and has any reason to take anything I say as value. Given this, If some of my words sting, then there must some amount of truth to them for nothing hurts more than the truth. If I'm am just full of $hit no one should be affected by it.”

Civility is never sugar coating. The lack of it is NOT honesty…just a simple lack of Wu De - Ne Me Yo Wu De. Ni Bu Li Mao.

Fire palm has the gist of it. Live your life but let others do so as well… The frog in the well appears to be most incapable of grasping the sky.

[reemul]

But you DID speak to what others do. You also implied that those out of your system were in some way inferior to what you do. The Shaolin temple is NOT an issue here. None of those I mentioned are affiliated with them. Those working on this effort are from Taiwan, Hong Kong, PRC, Maylasia, etc?
NO I didn't this is one of your inferrences that as gone astray. I am merely saying that our purpose is different. Where as we base training around the ideals of our predicessors toward personal growth which is measured by the individual, others have based training around competitions that narrow the scope of their training. I didn't see superior or inferior mentioned


The people I mention are well respected. They support standardized judging and competitions. They do a myriad of styles ? Most all traditional. The point is, that you state that such things are impossible. I display evidence to the contrary. YOU are the one speaking in absolutes. Therefore, logic dictates that if you say an absolute and I can display it is NOT absolute, you are speaking incorrectly. Simple point?
That is not evidence. Universal Standard says that a standard can be applied to all said elements of that universe and be fair and impartial. The fact that we disagree speaks to the contrary of a universal standard. The only universal standard that holds up is that there be no rules or standards. OF course how do you judge that.

as for responses to the rest of your post , I'm sorry I tuned it out.

[HuangKaiVun]

I DIDN'T tune out the rest of GLW's post, and I concur.

We are all going to have our opinions, "correct" or not. True martial artists hold those opinions but allow leeway for people to differ from them.

GLW clearly exhibits that openmindedness and control in the face of disagreement - and that's why he's a successful competition judge.