Correct Horse Stance

[Fu-Pow]

Horse stance..the "root" of chinese martial arts...seems like it should not be an issue: There should be a right way and wrong way to do it. However, I have heard different things from my different teachers. Therefore, I'm hoping to get some kind of consensus on this forum.

Most Traditional Southern Kung Fu Masters (choy lay fut, hung gar) that I've known hold a "wide" horse stance. "Wide" meaning that the knees sit directly over the foot. Imagine that your legs make a box shape when viewed from the front (As ff you were if fact sitting on a horse) In addition, once seated in horse stance the toes are pointed directly forward.

However, my Tai Chi teacher stated that pointing your toes forward puts unecessary pressure on the outside of the knee. In addition, the toes should be pointed in the same direction as the leg is "pointing." (meaning the femur)

Having tried both ways: the "toe-forward"stance seems more rooted down, but there is definitely a loss of mobility and in addition there is pressure on the knee.

The Tai Chi way seems less stable but more mobile and less strained.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

Fu-Pow

P.S.
Both my Kung Fu teachers have terrible knees. One even had to have major surgery. :confused:

[Shaolin Master]

Feet Parallel
Knees not out nor in - 'locked'
lower and balance the root
grip and straight back

above is most common, however different styles different methods based on their approaches and methods.

Regards
Shi Chan Long

[joedoe]

There is no right or wrong way - every style teaches it differently, and every style has different aims when they teach it.

For me, the horse stance is more for training strength and stability than for mobility as I tend not to use it in sparring.

Just my $0.02 worth.

[hasayfu]

Realize that southern styles use the horse stance not for rooting but to break the root of others. Sure, you need to have good root yourself and have the strength to use the horse stance so it's trained that way in the beginning but think of the two man training.

If you think you are supposed sit in a horse stance as an on guard position, you are not using it right. Hung Gar uses it in the context of bridge then stance to break the root (stance) of your opponent. This requires the structure that is trained. (of course this is a very basic and only one example)

In Tai Chi, you don't have this type of offensive attack so you don't need to train it. Also, Tai Chi generally doesn't like this 50/50 weight distribution so their stances are different.

The southern horse stance done correctly should actually be good for the knees.

[Fu-Pow]

I agree with you on the fact that Tai Chi does not favor a 50/50 stance. They call it "double-weightedness." However, I totally diagree about the point of Tai Chi NOT being to uproot your opponent. Quite the contrary. Tai Chi is all about the game of balance. But this is besides the point. No matter what martial art you do it is better to have a solid root, so that you can not be knocked off balance. Especially, for most Chinese martial arts that lack ground fighting techniques ie you fall down...game over.
You didn't answer my question. Toes in or toes out? And why?

Also, what is Hay Say Fu? Is it like Hung Gar?

Fu-Pow

[illusionfist]

I dont think hasayfu was commenting on the uprooting tactics of tai chi, he was commenting on how hung gar specifically uses the horse to uproot its opponent. This tactic is not really emphasized in tai chi. Of course tai chi uproots their opponents, they just dont really use the tactic that hasayfu described.

As for toes in or out, it can be both. We do both in hung gar.

Peace :D

[Fu-Pow]

Sorry, I don't get how you can uproot someone with a horse stance. It's just a static stance.
And you claim that you do both toe-in and toe out stances in Hung Gar. Which stance is appropriate when? What I'm getting at is correct posture, the one that allows the best "root" and the most health benefits.

Fu-Pow

The northern T-stance is best in training and sparring ,every mordern martialarts has adopted this stance,nearly all southern styles has stolen and adopted this northern stance in there styles

guru

[MoQ]

It has more to do with the Modong and O'mei arts being Taoist and "natural", rather than the arbitrary rigidity in the Shil Lum styles.

If you let your body do it naturally, no knee is going to turn the feet parallel, they are going the direction of the rest of the leg as TAO intends...

Also, forward(or rear) is going to be a t-step(ding gee ma) and not a "bow and arrow" and your neutral sideward is T-not-T/8-not-8, bud ding bud bat ma.

In these styles, destructive techniques aimed at square Shil Lum stances can be quite developed...

Unless it's a passive hobby, I would suggest practicing the ma bo that your teacher, or the teacher in your style(school) designates.

[whitelion]

In Wu Chu Chuan we mostly use a toes-in horse stance. In the low horse stance, the feet are straight ahead.

------------------------------------
Talk softly and carry a big stick.

[illusionfist]

Once again, it can be both. We do the toes out horse stance during the internal sections in five animals/ five elements, and in several places during the Iron Wire set. Both are conducive to rooting, but its up to the player to be cognizant of the internal workings. The more you focus on internal in anything you do, the more health benefits you gain. The more you know, the more you can control.

As for not seeing how someone can uproot somebody with a horse, reread hasayfu's post and see what you misinterpreted. A little hint- on guard= static.

MoQ is correct, you should do it how your sifu showed you. Some elements of your horse stance may be style specific, and if you dont follow the requirements correctly, you may be doing more harm than good.

Peace :D

[chikung]

In all the original Shouthern Shaolin the Sei Ping Ma is the same.
Foot almost parralel to each other.
The corve of the knees must cover the dorsal surface of the foot.
The hip joins in abduction.
Spine Vertical to the ground, keep its physiological corves.
Line of gravity in the senter of the base.
Followed by a fluid energy and not static energy in individual group of musscles.
Hands tight to the lower ribs.