Dit Da Jow

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Would anyone care to share their experiences when they first used Dit Da Jow or helped someone by recommending Dit Da Jow? I have had some experiences and I was curious if anyone had some experiences they would care to share? Thank you.

Damian

"Beware the fury of a patient man."

[EARTH DRAGON]

I have a funny story to share...... My school is located in a plaza next to a bar/resurant, the owner is a very nice guy named scotty bath, he plays hockey on a league 3 times a week. Well one week he got into a fight and when I went over for lunch he and his wife were fighting becuse they had to stand up in a wedding that night and she was ****ed that he had bruises all over his face.

I walked up to him and said I can help you out if you want. he said how , I said I have some herbs.

He came over and I opened up my 15 year old jow and told him to rub it on his face. He smelled it and said what is this sh*t.. it smells awful. I said just rub it on will ya.

He says yea but the wedding is tonight how long does this stuff take to work , I said keep rubbing........ after 20 minutes he couldnt belive that the bruises were dissappearring before his eyes.

He eventually went next door and everyone told him he stunck but by that night the bruises were gone.

Hecame over the next day and thanked me and then traded me a week of lunches for a small bottle......

He said your amazing man and then asked if I had anything that could keep the yang up!!!!!!

[Wu-Xing]

hehe, cool story ED

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

I have noticed that people are skeptical when introduced to Dit Da Jow. You explain what the liniment can do and they look at you like your nuts.

Damian

[Dronak]

So for those of us who are newer and/or just don't know, could you explain a bit more about what Dit Da Jow is? I mean I get the idea that it's some sort of traditional, herb-based ointment or whatever and apparently very good. But what is it usually used to treat, how easy is it to get/make, are there sort of limitations on how often or how much you can use, stuff like that? I'm just curious. Our instructor said that when we get to the point where we're going to do start learning fighting/sparring, we'll have some medicine to help with any bruises and stuff we may get from the practice. I'm kind of wondering if this is what he's talking about.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Dronak,
dit dat jow is a combination of herbs mixed together by a herbologist to create a topical tonic. It is used for a variety of reasons but mainly to condition the skin and or bone, speed up chi flow to increase blood circulation from stagnet bloodstasis. (bruising if you will)

It can be found in some chinese herb stores but the good or potent stuff is only available to people that make it and wish to give it too someone (like me or damian) he he just teasing all.

This is not to be confused with the crap that they sell online for $15.00 for that is mostly water and not very good.

The only way to have the real good stuff is get the recipe ...... this is not easy for the recipe are more closly gaurded than famous amous cookies.. I hpoe that helps.

PS the older the stronger. 10 -15 years is good stuff. 20-50 years is gold.........

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

I must echo what Earth Dragon mentioned but you should ask these questions of your instructor/Sifu. If you are doing/going to do this training that you mentioned he should have the knowledge of Dit Da Jow. Train well.

Damian

[Dronak]

Interesting. I always enjoy learning something new. Earth Dragon, I guess you don't put too much faith in any recipes that you can find on the web then, huh? I did a Google search on "dit da jow" and a few recipes did show up in the first 50 hits (I load a lot of hits by default). Or will these work too, but just not be as strong or effective as the ones that are kept secret? Weaker isn't necessarily worse if it can do what you want it to. Are there products available for purchase that you would consider good?

dfe****o, our teacher said that the combat training wouldn't start until the fall at the earliest and only for certain people who he feels are ready for it. Not everyone will be able to do that class/section. Since he mentioned having or getting medicine to use when needed as part of the training, I kind of assume that he does have sufficient knowledge about whatever medicine he plans to use. There's no rush on this for me. We're all still doing barehand forms, but our teacher is pushing us fast to give us as much as he can as quickly as possible. It was just that he mentioned using the medicine to help take care of bruises which was what this thread mentioned dit da jow could do, so I thought I'd ask about it. Our teacher didn't specify what the medicine was, so I thought I'd just ask and see if he might have meant dit da jow.

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Dronek -

I would like you to remember a few things;
- for a Jow to good it doesn't have to have alot of herbs. I know a good recipe that has only 14 herbs.
- there are jows on the market from $6-$10/ounce. Don't be fooled by these people. As Earth Dragon stated learn to make your own.
-last but not least, if you purchase a jow make sure it comes in a glass-type bottle. Do not by a jow in plastic. The jow loses its potency in a plastic bottle no matter how good it may be. Train well.

Damian
"Beware the Fury of a Patient Man"

[Buby]

For those interested, my sifu has an inexpensive formula on his site. The link below should take you directly to the jow page. We have lots of different types of jow, just in case your skin is sensitive to one, you can use another. The one on sifu's site is very basic, but works pretty good none the less.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm/dit_dar_medicine.htm

Take care,
Buby

[sean_stonehart]

Damien... since storing the completed jow in glass makes sense, how about the herbs prior to storage? I've got the batches of herbs to make my jows, but they're in tupperware now to store.

Also, how long is the shelf life in plastic for the completed jow? I'm just curious about that part. Once I start my iron bone training, I'll be using jow, but not bathing in it so I'll have leftovers but don't it to waste in plastic. The tupperware containers make the pouring easier but if it's not good for the jow, then I don't mind swapping. Just looking for info.

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

I have always kept my herbs in their original bags. Prior to cooking/preparing Dit Da Jow, I have kept my herbs in the refrigerator. Can't honestly remember the duration of time. And, of course, I have a second refrigerator in the garage which really helps. I am not too sure about keeping herbs in tupperware. In all the years of dealing with Jow I never met anyone who did put herbs in tupperware for storage but I will get you the answer. Train well.


Damian

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Tupperware is okay for storing the herbs as long as moisture is not present. However, once the alcohol has been added to the herbs you cannot store the mixture in anything else but glass or crockery. Hope this helps you, Sean. Train well.

Damian

[BSH]

Dit Da Jow is only one of many types of Dit Da. I have personally used Dit Da Jow, Dit Da Yeow, Dit Da Yuen, and Dit Da Darn.

Basically, Dit Da is herbs prepared in a tradtional manner which qualifies it as one of the above.

Find a supplier of Dit Da and try it out. If it doesn't work, you will know it and you will need to find another supplier. The problem is that once someone uses a traditional term, everyone jumps on the bandwagen, throws together herbs, and claims Dit Da. The proof is in the results. If it doesn't work, you will know right away.

Question the lineage of the formulae before you buy them. Thousands of years of Chinese Medical knowledge is useful only if the knowledge was passed on correctly and properly.

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

I pretty much agree with everything you say and I would like you to know that the recipe I use is a very old and proven one. It can be used for just about anything? I have helped many people with it.

Can you explain what are Dit Da Yeow, Dit Da Yuen and Dit Da Darn? I have never heard these terms. Do they mean the same but just in a different dialect? Are these Jows used for specific purposes? hope to hear from you, BSH.

Damian

[BSH]

The difference is in the preparation/

Jow is rice wine based. Yeow is oil based. Yuen and Darn are ground up and prepared in solid form.

[Dronak]

I just got a copy of _The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu_ by Wong Kiew Kit and while skimming through it I noticed that there are a couple of recipes given. One of them says it's used for treating "bruises, pain, swelling, blood clots" and a couple other things. It sounds like it's a dit da jow, but he doesn't specifically call it that. I'd assume that since this recipe has already been published, it's not exactly a secret so I can share it. You've got the reference. The listed ingredients are ru xiang, mo yao, chuan hong hua, gui wei, zhi ke, chuan gong, tao ren, mu xiang, chen xiang, jin jie, chi yao, ji geng, zhi zi, hu gu, dan pi. Making it sounds simple enough: "Take 12g of each ingredients and soak the mixture in 3 pints of white rice wine. After about two months, discard the residue." Then you rub it on the injury, external use only apparently. Any comments on this one? And does anyone know what those herbs are in English? I did some web searching, but can't find some of the names and it would be nice to get all the translations from one source. BTW, if anyone's curious, the other recipe I noticed in the book was called Harmonizing Chi and Generating Blood.

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

First of all rice wine is very expensive so if you prepare this jow you might want to use 80% vodka, the cheapest $$$you can buy. I am familiar with the following;
ru xiang - frankincense
mo yao - myrrh zhi zi - jasmine root
chuan hua(hong hua)safflower hu gu - tiger bone
zhi ke - bitter orange fruit dan pi - peony root (cortex
of the tree)
dao(tao) ren - peach kernal
mu xiang - Aucklandia root
chen xiang - aloeswood

One last thing, I would not prepare this recipe because of the herb, hu gu. This is a very expensive herb, however, I wish you may be able to get a substitute. If you have the urge to go with this recipe email me and I will help you.

Damian

[Dronak]

I suppose you can substitute whatever liquid you want as long as the percentage of alcohol is about the same as what the recipe uses? You said that hu gu / tiger bone is very expensive. Is this literally bone from a tiger or is it some sort of poetic name for something else? I'd think that if you know what a particular ingredient is supposed to do, what its medicinal properties are, you could substitute another one (or more) that will do the same thing. Of course, I don't so I can't go mixing up whatever. I'm not in any particular rush to make or get dit da jow. It might be useful to have, but right now just learning more about it is OK. I can always use the information I gather now later on.

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Dronak - That is exactly what it is: Tiger Bone. It is so expensive because the tiger is an endangered species.

BSH - You use rice wine, I use vodka whichever is okay to use. What type of oil is used with Yeow. You also mentioned Yeun and Darn are ground up and prepared in solid form. Would you please explain the process??

Damian

[BSH]

Traditionally rice wine was used. Most of the Jow's I use are now vodka based for a couple of reasons: cost, alchohal content, stickiness, and smell.

The reality is, vodka did not exist in china when most of the recipes were developed. Also, if you have use a rice wine based Jow, you now that it is stickier, smells different and tends to ball up the hair in the area you use it on, moreso than the vodka.

I have not made the Yeow and can't help you with the type of oil used. I have only been briefly involved in the creation of the Darn and Yuen.

Please don't take this wrong, but my Sifu would not want me to give away any knowledge that I have about making the Dit Da. He paid huge amounts of money for the knowledge. I have, in turn, paid for what little I know. To give it away on an internet Forum would not be wise. I hope you understand.

It is good to see that there are some traditional arts left which include herblore. I was beginning to think that all CMA in the US was Karate or Tae Kwan Doe with a made up Kung Fu name attached to it.

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

I understand your meaning. I wasn't looking for a recipe from you but a more historical-type answer. I make a few jows now and I don't think I have room for another one. Have a good day.

Damian

[eightgates]

Damian, In the tit da yau recipe I have, sesame oil is used to extract the principles of the herbs which are gently simmered in it for a period of time. After the proscribed period, the dregs were removed and the oil bottled.

BSH, I learned the tit da recipes as four types: tong - soup (decocted in water), jau - wine, yau - oil (ointment), and gou (plaster). Is your tit da yuen the ground medicine formed into a ball then covered with wax to preserve it? One of my teachers use to have dozens of these on hand which he would give out to the students to make their own tit da jau. It made it very convenient to store and easy to measure out. You can still find the commercial ones in the Chinese herb stores. And your tit da darn, is that the same as tit da gou?

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

eightgates - From your reply it sounds like you cook your jows? How long do they take to cook. I have one recipe that takes for hours. I'd rather just add the vodka and put it on the shelf but I like cooking it because the recipe contains camphor - Lung Nao Hsiang/Bing Pian and the aroma is so good.

Damian

[eightgates]

Hi Damian,

Only some of the recipes I have require cooking, the tit da yau is one for instance (about 2 and 1/2 - 3 hours). Although I was given the recipe, I never got around to making it since I already had 4 or 5 other bottles of recipes soaking on the side. Besides that, I also took into account that my teacher said his wife use to complain because of the smell and the oily smoke. I don't particularly care for the ointment types of tit da, but since this thread brought up the subject, maybe I'll give it a try and see how it turns out. There are a few soaking recipes I have that require either some light simmering or steaming with water of some of the materials to release certain properties before soaking. Other recipes require the dry materials to be ground into fine powder first. They are then either soaked or used in the tit da gou recipes.

As BSH said, it's nice to hear that some people, such as yourself, are keeping the preparation of some of the tit da medicines traditions alive. Nowadays, so many people seem to be enamoured with the power of the Shaolin tradition that they forget the monks were well versed in healing too.

All the best!

[BSH]

Eight Gates/Damian:

I am not familiar with the plaster (Gau), so I can't tell you if it is similar. You are right about the Yuen. The ones I take are eaten straight. My Sifu has talked about making Yuen of the type your teacher used to have. The idea is to have a Jow that is more portable. Easier to travel with and ship.

What styles are you learning that contain herblore? It is so rare these days.

[eightgates]

Hi BSH,

My first teacher was my cousin's maternal grandfather who practised Choi Ga Boxing. When I first met him I was still in high school and he was 74 years old, but he could do handstands and outmaneuver all of us kids including an ex-marine who was a member of the class. He was born in China in 1898 and during that time doctors were scarce in the country side where he grew up and people had to learn to take care of themselves for the most part. From what he told me, he first learned how to use herbs from his father-in-law who gave him a hand written book of the family recipes for various ailments common at the time. Some of the book contained various tit da recipes which were used for injuries sustained from falling off horses, getting hurt by falling objects such as dropping a rock on your foot while clearing a field, knife cuts, etc. My teacher continued to write down other recipes he gathered over the years and he later gave me the book since I was the only one interested in the field. Over the years, I learned a little bit more from my next Siu Lum teacher, elderly friends of my family and one of my Taijiquan teachers who was a practising accupuncturist and herbalist.

The herbs for tit da gou are first finely ground then mixed with beeswax to form a plaster. It can then be dried between strips of linen and stored for use. Before using, they would melt the wax with a flame then apply it to the afflicted area (yes, it's pretty hot!) and then covered over with cloth and taped to the body. Sometimes, tin chut powder would be sprinkled on it first to increase it's efficacy. Another simplier and traditional way to make the gou is to mix animal fat or egg white with the medicinal powder as an adhesive. The only thing is that you can't keep these on as long as the beeswax (once I had to leave a plaster on for 3 days) since the animal proteins break down quite quickly and start to putrify (not a pretty smell either).

Keep up the good work, it sounds like you are a fine credit to your teacher!

[Leimeng]

~If you can find HuGu please be aware that is it very expensive because it is illegal to sell or buy in the US, Canada, most parts of Europe and most parts of Asia. Of course in Asia, the laws are written to keep Westerners happy and can probably be found for a price. My reccomendation is to find someone in Cali or one of the other western states that has a lottery for hunting Mountain Lions, (or better yet enter the lottery yourself) and try get the bones of those if you can. Also, I know people who use Bobcat bones as well. If you use bones other than real tiger bones, you should increase the amount used. Also, if you go into a Chinese herb store and ask to buy Tiger Bone they will most likely tell you NO. A few will sell you what is called "hugujiao" that is a solidified jelly made from tiger bone and marrow. This is actually a pretty good substitute if it is genuine. But like the Tiger bone itself, it is pretty expensive and has the same sort or legal restrictions. Some stores might sell you what they call Tiger Bone, (for the stupid laowai), but in actuality it will be pig bones. Then, dont be suprised if they call the police on you. I know people have have done this!
~There are a few good recipies that I know of that dont use Tiger Bone at all and still produce some pretty good results.
~If you are interested in some quality jow, email me and I might be able to set you up. Be warned though, I might take a few months to get back to you.

Peace,

Sin Loi

yi beng, kan xue

[BSH]

It seems only the family-inherited systems still maintain the herblore. Sad, but understandable.

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Just wanted to extend my sincerest thanks and appreciation to those who took part in this thread. To some extent, the making of good liniments is another fading art but from the response of this thread it just might take some time. If I can ever be of asisstance to anyone for whatever reasons please feel free to email me. Happy Easter to all of you and thanks again.

Damian

[Tai-Jutsuka]

I bought the Iron Palm Jow kit from a website called eastmeetswest.com. What is in the Iron Palm jow that makes it different from any other one?

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

A good Jow should be balanced and promote blood circulation. The quality not the quantity of herbs used in preparing Jow is important. Just because a jow contains, for example, 24 herbs does not necessarily make it a good one. Train well.


Damian

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

I took a look at the website you mentioned and this is my opinion:

(1) If you are not familiar with herbs you don't know what you are getting.

(2) What herbs are used in this formula? Hopefully, they will tell you???

(3) $25 a kit is alot of money. If you knew how to make your own Jow, you could add a few dollars to the $25 and make enough Jow for a couple of years.

(4) I noticed that this company uses plastic bottles. You should never purchase a Jow in a plastic bottle. No matter how good the Jow is, it will lose its potency. By the way, when you prepare the Jow you purchased from that company, make sure you find a glass, 1 gallon, container to "stew" your Jow. If you have to cook this Jow DO NOT USE A STEEL POT. Use a ceramic/crock pot.

Damian

[Tai-Jutsuka]

They said that they don't make the jow for you. They send you the herbs and you make it yourself. Since I got recipes from the same website, I'm under the impression that they use the ingredients in said recipes.

[BSH]

The Iron Palm Jow might be a Jow specifically designed for Iron Palm training or it might be a made up name for random ingredients thrown together and called a Jow.

Find out more about where the recipe came from. Seek the source.

dfe****o is right. I would be very suspicious based on the plastic bottles.

Most websites who sell you the herbs and let you make it are not someone I would trust.

dfe****o, do you really think $25 is a lot for quality Jow. I have paid 10 to 100 times more for Jow and it was worth it. Of course, those are specialized Jow's. Or do you think that $25 is too much for a Jow kit? I guess I need clarification on what comes in a kit and what is expected of the buyer.

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

For an example, for a particular recipe I purchase 4 ounces of each herb, 14 herbs in the recipe. It cost me under $50 (don't have the exact cost in front of me)for the herbs. With these herbs I make 5 gallons of Jow. So now BSH, what do you think?? The $25/gallon is fine for someone who has no training in herbs/herbal formulas. If we would know what went into that kit, I don't believe either one of us would purchase it. I have paid my dues as well. When I began making Jow I was taken for a ride twice ($150)for this recipe and I don't want that to happen to someone else. The purpose of this thread is to help my fellow MA's in their Herbal knowledge and Jow preparations.

Damian

[BSH]

Agreed. I guess the difference is trust and knowledge. My thought process is the following:

If I know the formula, I will get the herbs myself, unless they are extinct and can only be purchased from an individual who has it. If I didn't have to pay for the formula, I would worry.

If I am buying pre-mixed herbs without the recipe listed (either Jow or ingredients and instructions), I would expect to pay two to three times the value of the herbs. Profit margin.

I am always suspect of things that sound too good to be true. I think we are both barking up the same tree. I don't trust this supplier.

Does this place tell you everything that is in the kit??

[Marshdrifter]

Jumping into this thread a little late in the game, but...

I'm learning Wing Chun and my immediate lineage doesn't have
a traditional recipe for jow, but I've been thinking about trying
some. I've heard that the store bought stuff isn't all that great
and most of the store bought stuff comes in plastic bottles, which
I've read is bad. So I've looked around and found a few recipes
around the web and in books, but I've never been able to find
a place that sells the ingredients. I'm also not sure what I'm
looking for in a store. Most of the places I've looked in seemed
to only have pre-bottled medications behind the counter. I've
considered trying out one of those assemble-yourself kits, but
have been pretty hesitant.

So... starting with the assumption that I like my school and don't
want to switch sifus (not to mention there really isn't any other
kung fu near where I live), what would be the best way for me
to break into the wonderous world o' jow?

Thanks.

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

BSH - It just might list the ingreients if it was on the bottle/package? Some of the glass bottles/plastic bottles of Jow I have seen list the ingredients. For example, Wing Lam's bottle prints the ingredients in Chinese and Latin so that no one can copy his Jow. I am curious enough to want to see the ingredients of this kit.

Marshdweller (apologize, forgot your name)- Send an email to me and I will help you on your Dit Da Jow path.
Damian

[BSH]

Marshdrifter:

To date, Damian is the only one I have chatted with who I might trust to provide Dit Da. My school is talking about releasing some Dit Da to the public in a few months and I will let you know if and when the decision is finalized. Until then, talk to Damian and see if he can help.

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Appreciate the comment and I want to throw it right back at you my Jow-cooking friend.

Damian

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by BSH
Marshdrifter:

To date, Damian is the only one I have chatted with who I might trust to provide Dit Da. My school is talking about releasing some Dit Da to the public in a few months and I will let you know if and when the decision is finalized. Until then, talk to Damian and see if he can help.

I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

[dubj]

What is the importance of tiger or large cat bone? Why wouldn't cow or horse bone work? Does it need to be from a preditory animal? What is the real reason it is used and how does it make the dit da more powerful?

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Tiger bone is called for in certain recipes. The herb can either make the Jow more potent and it can balance or tonify the Jow. It is possible to substitue herbs for herbs such as Tiger Bone but I wouldn't know what to substitute. If you need further info I would try to find one.

Damian

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

I found out this morning from my Iron Palm Brother, Master Kruger, that some herbalists use Dog or Cat/Feline Bone as a substitute for Tiger bone but the energy is not the same. You would have to double the dosage of the substitutes to get the same energy using the real McCoy. Others use Calcium Carbonate/ Qian Nian Jian, a botannical substitute. Hope Master Kruger has answered your question.

Damian

[David Jamieson]

Fine and potent jows can be made without the inclusion of any bone.
Tiger bone is something that is highly unlikely you will get your hands on.
Many dit dar medicines are made strictly with herbs. Bone is not an herb. Herbs are plant material.

Sometimes insects are used in some types of jows, but for the bruise liniments that are required by the martial artist, there is not a need for jows that contain anything more than actual herbs.

As for the plastic question. The Harbin pharmacy started releasing tinctures and liniments in the last couple of years and with these new bottles they printed explanations of what it was and invited the opinions and comments of those who used these medicines.

Plastics are not what they used to be and there are many high quality plastics that are used in the packaging of liniments and other volatile liquids that do not leach. Clear and hard plastics are of this quality, whil the plastics that are thin and milky at the seams will likely be leeching to the substance it contains.

Still, if you are totally unsure, go for the glass bottle. :)

Dit Da Jow that one would use as a bruise liniment is readily available. Other stronger types that are used in bone setting and for more serious injuries are usually prescribed or given to you by your sifu.

Anyway, pain relief and relief of blood stasis are the main characteristics of a good dit da jow. Bruises will heal in a half to a quarter of the time they usually would and there is no residue scar tissue from the initial hematoma. THis is partly from the massage and partly from using the medicine. The massage breaks up the underlying scar tissue and the dit da jow keeps the blood flowing through the wounded tissue to prohibit a build up of cells that in turn will cause a scar that will effect the pliability of the affected area later in life.

peace

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Check out this web site. I felt it contained knowledge, well written and informative;
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/journal/columns/chu/knight13jow.shtml

Damian