Chen Man Ching style in China

[Ka]

This is addressed mainly to Bamboo Leaf, but I was wondering if the Ching man ching Yang style has a major following in the mailand china?Any major schools or noted teachers?

[GLW]

Not really. I know of many reputable teachers from the mainland who never saw that style or way of doing Yang style until they came to the US.

[Ka]

Thanks for the fast reply,so it would be true to say CMC started promoting his style in the US,rather then bringing it intact from the mainland.
Recently had a friend come back from a trip to the mailand and was surprised at how popular old Yang,and old Wu was.He saw as he expected many of wushu simplifed froms,but also just as many old 108 versions of Yang being practised.
He being from a CMC school was supprised to find no one he communicated with knew or practised his version of Yang.He found the attitude towards push hands was quite different as well.
He was staying in Beijing

[bamboo_ leaf]

I would think the first place that he promoted or introduced it was Taiwan.

The people that I play with here are from china or have recently immigrated from china. They know of CMC style and seem to hold him in high regard. Also in Singapore, and Malaysia they play the CMC style .

Regarding the push hands, your friend might have been confused between practicing something and doing it with people that you don’t know. If your ability is not high and you have no ting jing( listening ability) then I would expect that you would get dusted quickly.


regardless of style if your basics are good then who can say this is bad, if you can relax and really listen then who can push you out. looks like he learnd something and now can work on it, he should be happy :)

[Ka]

Thanks for the reply BL
He found that in regards to Push hands many wanting to quickly move into free(as in moving/all directions)even after deciding on fixed push hands.
I agree that most would not have seen his enthusaism as a time to practise but as a time to knock down the waiguoren.He infromed me he held his own in some of the more lusty times.

[GLW]

What many call 108 Yang is more commonly referred to as Ba Shr Wu - 85 Posture- This is the count if you do things like say Brush Knee and Twist Step on both sides isntead of counting it as 3 techniques.

As for the regard for different routines, depends a lot on who you ask and how polite they are being. It is unlikely that a person would come out and tell a Wai Guo Ren that they were doing things badly. That would be rude.

CMC taught in Taiwan and made a name for himself there through connections to Chiang Kaishek (indirect as they were).

He then had several notable students come to the US as well as teaching some foreigners who went back to the US. He and his students, while not technically the first, were the first ones to begin to spread Taijiquan in the US.

The more traditional Yang style was maintained. Wu and Sun stayed around. Wu/Hao is limited. Chen had some hard times originally but was bolstered up by people like Gu Luxing until it became popular in the 1970's - 1980's again.

You will find a lot of people doing a lot of different Taijiquan and Qi Gong...but you will find more younger people interested in ballroom dancing.....and karaoke...go figure. :)

[bamboo_ leaf]

The people that I push with here consider the fixed patterns kind of basic, maybe for our group they are (all have 10+yr or more of practice) we really only practice free style and I say practice as in getting the feeling for really developing the various jings that many talk of.

As you say he held his own, this is good and being the waiguoren guy I can see where it might be a little less then friendly.

Many view this as a very real test of skills and approach it as so. When playing with people that you don’t know it’s wise to keep this in mind. For me if I feel that I have caught the center of someone we both know it. The approach that we use and is stressed is not to push but follow gain the real skill. There are other things involved but don’t really have the words to describe it.

The main couch here is from Beijing and has been pushing for quite awhile. So maybe I can relate to some of the flavor your freind found there.

I have been dusted on occasion by some stopping by wanting to practice but really wanting to win. This usually only happens a few times until I fix my mind on really listening then it becomes a little different and they are not so quick to come in as they tend to throw themselves out.

for me it just means that i need to relax and work more so it is good but i wouldn't recommend it as a way for gaining skill, maybe only testing ones skill.

He must feel really good about his kung fu to want to play on some ones home turf, not every one would bother with this. it says a lot. :)

[tc]

Cheng Man Ching still has a school in Taiwan which is being run by his godson and other senior students.

Cheng Man Ching was also the art teacher Madame Chiang Kaishek which is also partly how he established roots in Taiwan, not to mention his many other talents.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Interesting Wujidude,,

I think it really depends on how you view TC. if it is viewed as vech to get to some place then the length or form doesn’t really matter.

Many people talk of left out movements but do not mention left out functions.

I find the CMC style to have all the functions as any other style.
I would agree that it might be a little harder to get them some other TC styles, as it is a condensed version based on the achievements and abilities of a noted master.


I think that some confusion arises with this style because of the level at which it was/is taught. Some might even go far as to say it was watered down. (what ever this means) ;)

Only here do I hear this, the people that I have spoken with respect the style and the man, even in China from what I am told many know of CMC.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Interesting I had some training from Ben, didn’t know that he also taught the long set too. I did learn (tung family) as well as some of their fast short tc sets as well as the knife. Staff and sword (jen) awhile back before learning the CMC form from my fist CMC teacher. For me I find that the CMC idea is very close to my inner understanding of TC then some of the other styles. This and some push hands is all I practice now.



Thanks for your very informative posting on this and also the book listings, no I hadn’t read them. Will check em out.


yes i can really say this now, less is more :)

[blacktaoist]

It should not matter what Tai Chi Chuan style is renowned. What should matter is that a Tai Chi practitioner be able to utilize thier Tai Chi skill in any situation.

I have had many encountering with Traditional Yang style Tai Chi practitioners in u.s.a and china, and many can't fight and their push hands is unskilled.

Even in China many Tai Chi practitioners are not that skillful. The Chen Man Ching style of Tai Chi is not well renowned in china. But professor Chen Man Ching name is very renowned in china.

Some Traditional Tai Chi masters in china support his method of tai Chi, Many don't. Its a Yin and Yang kind of thing.

Many Ba Gua and Tai Chi practitioners that I met in China, viewpoint was that Wang Shu Chin Tai Chi Chuan was of a more high level then professor Chen Man Ching.

To tell You the truth I myself don't care about anyone's opinion. What matters is the martial art you practice is practical for combat and works for you, within extremely difficult situations.

I have no doubt that the Chen Man Ching style of tai Chi is the most efficient internal martial art that any person can learn. I was taught the 60 movements by master William C C Chen and freestyle push hand and I skill train at his school from time to time.

My own opinion is his method is more practical for combat, then the so called traditional Tai Chi styles. But thats just my own viewpoint, base on my own experience from encountering many Tai Chi practitioners and other martial artist.

The bottom line is, a martial artist most find a method that their be happy and satisfied with its practical aspects.

But the sad thing is, Many Tai Chi practitioners can't utilize their Tai Chi method at all.

One must become their own sage

Peace, practice and live long.:D

[HuangKaiVun]

Spoken like a MASTER, theblacktaoist. As usual

Your teacher should be proud of you.

I will seek you out in person one day and pay my respects.

[blacktaoist]

Hey Huang Kai Van, I'm not a master. I am just a internal practitioner with a opinion base on fact and truth.

I just feel there are not many high level Tai Chi fighters out there. $hit, there not many internal martial art practitioners that can utilize the style their practicing in a real fight or just sparring other martial artist. I love to me alot of high level tai Chi masters that can put me on my ass easy.

I have work out with a lot of Traditional Tai Chi palyers most were alright with their pushhands, but every one I met and practice pushhands with was wrestling in my opinion.

I never went flying out ten feet, like so many of the bull$hit Tai Chi storys that people read about. Many people practice Tai Chi because they think that they are going to develop some kind of mystical and invisible power. What a big myth that is being exposed by unskilled martial artist as genuine truth.

The truth of the matter is, great things can be attain from practicing Tai Chi Chuan. But a practitioner must put in the hours of practical training. But many Tai Chi practitioners just don't have the mindset to train like the old masters of the past, even in China today".

And this is way we don't see many high level Tai Chi or internal martial artist today. Many love to talk about high level Tai Chi theory and applications, but many can't even utilize it in a freefighting situation"

Now I'm not against the Chi or supernatural elements of Tai Chi Chuan. I would rather say that I am for Tai Chi practical aspects. And the Chen man Ching form of Tai Chi is all for that.

Peace, practice and live long.:D

[Nexus]

Well made points blacktaoist. You really do need to put in the time of practice to develop anything close to skill in t'ai chi chuan. I see students who I train with who've been learning longer than I yet rarely practice on their own time stumble and lack rooting on their movements with heels rising and all sorts of obvious give-aways. I myself still have a lot of ground to cover and growth to encompass, and personally it's the process more than the climax that keeps me in the internal arts.

Spring time now, so let's get some fresh air.