Aikido throws vrs Shuai Chiao throws/applications?

[Black Jack]

For those gents that know or have some experiance with booth systems, can you give me your breakdown of the differences between the basic principles/foundational applications in the throws of Shuai Chiao vrs those of Aikido, I do not want this to be a style vrs style thread but one where I can get some friendly personal viewpoints and technical outlooks on the differences in execution, style psychology, and training focus.

The reason being is a friend of mine just joined a pretty famous Aikido/Aiki Ju Jitsu school in Southern California and he made the choice over a kf school that incorporated Shuai Chiao.

The only thing that I warned him about is the organization is the Aikai organization, and from what I heard, is that some of that group is composed of non-violent Aikido hippies, violence is bad, Aikido is for spiritual growth and not-fighting crowd, though he states the temple he studies at, which is the headquaters, is not like that at all.

He learns from the main guy their, I believe his last name is Chiba, though I know dog **** about that system of Aikido or Chinese Fast Wrestling for that matter.

Peace

[Chris McKinley]

The most important variable here is what kind of Shuai Jiao is Aikido being compared to? While Aikido can have some variation in how it's taught, it's roughly standardized. Shuai Jiao, though, can be like Chin Na...it all depends on which style's Shuai Jiao you're talking about. The most common is that of Northern Shaolin, but, like Chin Na, most styles have some form of Shuai Jiao contained in them.

For instance, the Shuai Jiao of my art of Baguazhang, explained so well in Tim Cartmell's book Effortless Combat Throws, is going to have all of the internal principles found in Aikido, and then some. The Northern Shaolin variety, in contrast, is going to look rather more like Judo in terms of the harder style aggressiveness of its approach.

All that said, it boils down to what you're wanting out of the training, and how quickly you want the results.

[Braden]

Chiba is reputably a very good aikidoka, and is one of the very few names that keeps coming up as someone with a very martial approach to the art. I think your friend would be well served to spend at least enough time with him to judge for himself.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~quid/Aiki/Movies.html
Clips of Chiba are right at the top. I also thought Malcolm Crawford's clips were interesting.

[Mr Punch]

Actually, there is a great deal of variety in aikido. There is precious little standardization.

I would divide aiki into four main forms.

The first, and oldest is aikijutsu, the oldest school of which I know is Daito-ryu, which dates back to the 12th century, and is arguably one of the only truly indigenous Japanese martial arts (together with kenjutsu/do, and sumai). Most jujutsu is said to come from this style. It is still practised in Kanto and a couple of other places, but is not too common. I have heard of a school in the north of the UK but there is no mention of it on the Daito-ryu main site. The hombu is in east Tokyo, and they don't really take too kindly to MA hobbyists, by which they mean people who are only wanting to do it for a few years! From what I've seen, it is a very solid style, looking like main styles of jujutsu, with aiki principles (more later!).

The three other main modern aiki styles come through Ueshiba Morihei (the Yip Man of aiki). He learned Daito-ryu to the highest level, also Yagyu-ryu kenjutsu, jukenjutsu (?) - a bayonet form, yarijutsu (straight spear), jojutsu (maybe 4' stick) and maybe a couple of other things. He proved himself in the Japanese military many times (he was stationed in Mongolia, allegedly in a special forces detail, so nobody knows exactly what he did). He formed aiki as we know it in 1924, I think. THE western (maybe world) authority on Ueshiba is an author and aikidoka called John Stevens.

Ueshiba's original aiki was hard, fast and not at all flowery. Very very effective. Yoshinkan Aikido (anyone read 'Angry White Pajamas'? - about the Japanese riot police course? :D )is one modern example of this kind, though is a little more angular, I think, than U's original stuff.


Later in his life Ueshiba got a little (how do I put this without disrespect?!) freaky :rolleyes: . He saw three visions, telling him to abandon violence and to use aiki to promote world peace. Modern Ki-aikido (from a branch 'founded' by Tohei Koichi) is an example of aiki from the 'freaky' period! As the name suggests (ki in Japanese is chi in Chinese: internal energy, spirit, steam, breath however you care to translate it) it is very internal. This takes perhaps the longest to learn. I've trained with ki-aikidoka who I would describe as flowery, balletic, and as wet as a haddock in a bathing costume :o! I've also trained with ki-aikidoka who can throw you like a doll, and definitely have whatever 'IT' is in the internal CMA :cool:. There seems to be a lot of skipping in some forms of ki-aiki :confused:. Bad idea :D ! A lot of the 'ki-training' seems like a watered down tai-chi, and the technique is ineffective to say the least. The good stuff seems good however.

The last common 'style' is 'Ueshiba style'. This group covers a multitude of sins :rolleyes: :D ... the full range from the hippy**** nonsense of the wettest ki-aikidoka, to the hardest, fastest, meanest, baddest assed jujutsu-type grabbit-wrenchit-lockit-breakit stylists!

All aiki is based on principles familiar to many CMA, internal and external: eg, the use of the attackers' energy against him; circular evasion and deflection to 'flow' through the centreline (and centre of balance); triangular entry techniques (using a t-stance, speed, and sharp strikes to nerve points) etc. You can see many katana techniques and spear techniques in there, and weapons (bo - 4.5-6' staff, and bokuto/bokken - wooden katana especially) are trained extensively in many styles. Some say that the internal aspect is very much based on an extension of energy from the tanden through te-gatana - handblade (with optional imaginary weapon!), so most of it is open hand. Various styles use more or less ki-training, weapons work, realistic attacks, atemi - strikes, etc.

The vast majority of aiki nowadays has some element of said hippy philosophy, but at its root, are we all not training to avoid having to kill someone;)?

Chiba Kazuo (if it is he?) was definitely a renowned g-w-l-b-it stylist in his day. He learned direct from Ueshiba, in the middle period. Now I've heard he has mellowed. I hear he is very traditional, and uses bokuto to illustrate his techniques, and 'extension'. He is one of the only aikidoka I would REALLY REALLY love to train with. Dunno anything about his juniors.

After all that, I know diddly-squat about san-shou yet. Sorry.

[shaolinboxer]

I think shuai chaio is closer to judo than to aikido. It has more hip throws, wheel throws, and leg sweeps...things more commonly found in judo.

[ShaolinTiger00]

shaolinboxer,

Very accurate. My san shou/ shuai chaio experience has crossed over amazingly well with judo.
:)

[Black Jack]

Thanks guys,

Yes it is Chiba Kazuo, my friend states that he is amazing, I got from this post what I basically wanted, that my buddy is with a real deal aikido school.

From what I understand the school is very beautifull, goldfish fountains, traditional japenese hardwood floors, pebble walkways, gongs, the whole bit.

I believe the school teaches both Aikido, Aiki Ju Jitsu, tantojitsu. hanbo, staff, iado, kenjitsu, and a host of other stuff as well.

Thanks, :)

[shaolinboxer]

http://www.aikidofaq.com/video/chiba_wakeup.mov

I always loved this shot clip of chiba sensei. Turn up the volume for the real effect...

There's a couple more here

http://www.aikidofaq.com/multimedia.html

[SwaiingDragon]

Black,

you stated that your friend decided to do akido over a "kf school that incorporated Shuai Chiao"....

well i'm a Shuai Chiao practioner and I would've gone with the akido school too---its true that Shuai Chiao adapts to and aids many styles- but i would rather go with the person who knows the true philosphy and application of the system that is being taught-

The big misconception people have been making is that they refer to Shuai Chiao as a technique (like Chi Na). IT IS A STYLE - if your martial art sytem has throws in it - they are just throws, not Shuai Chiao.

Shuai Chiao consists of throwing, punching, kicking, joint locking (NOT Floor Grappling- some grappling escapes) - It is taught to many police and military organizations- most programs take 4-5 years to complete.

[Water Dragon]

Shuai Chiao is both an art unto itself as well as a subset of skills in other arts. Although the ART of Shuai Chioa has other stuff in it, most people go for the throwing aspect of it. Much like peple going to BJJ for the groundfighting skills even though the art has strikes, throws, and standing locks in it.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Shuai Chiao - the word by itself refers to a form of stand-up, kilingon-esque sportive grappling.

Shuai - refers to the throwing techniques in martial arts.

Shuai Chiao in the context of the martial art codified by Chang Tung Sheng is a comprehensive martial art that invludes Ti, Da, Shuai, Na - with the emphasis on the throwing over punching and kicking.

But even so, some students of master Chang only focus on the sportive aspect - and there is nothing wrong with that.

So yeah, if I was going to go 'get' something, I'd go to the guy who has all around expertise. Probably the Aikido guy.

As for the differences between Shuai Chiao and Aikido - that's a book in and of itself, and highly relative based on the teacher. I prefer Shuai Chiao, but that was the best instruction I could get when I was intensely training. In your area, you might have a really good Aiki guy. Will there things you won't learn in one school or the other? Will there be vulnerabilities created by your choice? Absoloutly. But you won't know what they are until you train hard and mix it up with other players. So go have fun.

[Black Jack]

Just so everyone knows, this was not a thread about why my friend went with the Aikido guy over the kf teacher, but the topic came out of that thought process and what might be the differences in the mindset/application of both styles.

It sounded interesting since both systems focus more on the throwing aspects than the striking and grappling aspects of combat, not that they don't have those abilities, just that they work on a certain range more than others.

Point being I would not want my head chucked towards the ground from either group. :D