Combining horse stance with weights question

[Lung Hu Pai]

Hey everyone, how's it going? I hope this question hasn't been asked a bunch of times here. Recently, my Sifu has switched me from standing high horse to low horse (thighs parallel to ground) for stance training. He wants me to practice it everyday for half an hour. I tried it today for about five minutes or so and it was pretty intense. I fell down a bunch of times and had to get back up. I imagine that if I did it for half an hour, my legs would be destroyed. But, the thing is that I am also starting to seriously squat now as well since I have become comfortable with form and technique of it. That also does a number on my legs as well. My question is what would you guys do? Would you still do low horse everyday? I am asking because I really don't know how to combine the two and would also like to prevent overtraining. I would appreciate any advice you guys could provide to help me out. Thanks, Azar.

[yu shan]

Lung Hu Pai

Man you gave me flashbacks with this story. I used to have a Shr Fu that would put us in a flatout horse for up to 60 min. He would go stir-fry, come back eat his stir-fry, then read to us. All the while mosquitos dive bombing our backs, did`t dare swat, just kept breathing, this was just the beginning of class.
If I may ask, what style of CMA do you do? Be careful with the weight training and MA. I`ll come back to this later, it`s getting late.

Yu Shan

[IronFist]

Dàmn, that's f.ucking psycho. If someone told me to hold a parallel horse stance for an hour, I'd say yeah, but how much can they deadlift. :P

IronFist

[red_fists]

Here is my take.

I would still do Low Horse stance everyday.

This and squats train your legs differently, and aim for a different goal.

Not sure if squats would hurt in addition to it, best ask your Sifu about that.

Just my 2 Yen worth.

[Braden]

What style are you studying?

Alot of people seem to approach stance training as a muscular exercise which IMHO is incorrect. Your time spent in horse should be spent focussing on relaxing (which should affect your mind and breath) and on maintaining proper structure/expansion. Doing this daily, regardless of your weight training regime, would be excellent for your kungfu. Build up SLOWLY to that amount of time though. If five minutes is what you can do now, do five minutes.

[fa_jing]

I think daily horse will be plenty for your legs, I would put the weights on hold for a while. If your a relative beginner like me, you'll still be using a lot of muscular strength to hold up the horse. If you want to lifts weights, you'll have to allot some days for complete rest. Maybe lift after your stance practice, using about half the weight you normally use? Then take the next day off completely. Otherwise, I'm all for daily horse training, preferable twice a day on most days, maybe 1 day off in a week and you don't have to worry about the weights for a while, maybe lift just once a week before your off day.
-FJ

[IronFist]

Do not neglect weight training.

Stance training will build mad endurance and root, but not muscular power.

If you're going to add in weight training, keep it to 2 sets of 5 or 3 sets of 3. Bodybuilding-style weight lifting will definately clash with stance training.

IronFist

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by IronFist
Dàmn, that's f.ucking psycho. If someone told me to hold a parallel horse stance for an hour, I'd say yeah, but how much can they deadlift. :P

IronFist


Hahaha...that's funny as hell Iron! :D

I only trained in CMA for about 8 months and I'm not sure on what benefit you gain from maintaining a horse stance for 60 minutes. Maybe someone could explain or elaborate on this. If it's to build muscular endurance that's fine, but in regards to the art what is the purpose? Would time be better spent practicing a myriad of techniques versus holding one stance for an hour? Just curious on your thoughts...

My hamstring is nearly healed up now and I will be jumping back into my thai boxing club tonight, but I still have plans to return to the chinese arts eventually...

[Erisson]

Originally posted by ElPietro

I only trained in CMA for about 8 months and I'm not sure on what benefit you gain from maintaining a horse stance for 60 minutes. Maybe someone could explain or elaborate on this. If it's to build muscular endurance that's fine, but in regards to the art what is the purpose? Would time be better spent practicing a myriad of techniques versus holding one stance for an hour? Just curious on your thoughts...

I'm just a beginner, but it seems to me that the advantage of practicing stances, especially horse, would be in the area of stability. My style, at least, places a strong emphasis on always being in a stable position, because the power of a striking or blocking technique comes from the waist, thru subtle shifts in the legs and hips. So training for good technique and a low stance (which is hard to get into, much less hold, at first) is very important.

Now, admittedly, holding a stance for an hour seems a bit extreme, but if you can hold it for an hour, you don't think anything of going into it for a minute or two during a form or sparring or whatever.

Also, you don't have to just sit there in the stance while you're training for it. I tend to try to integrate staying in the stances into my daily life, brushing my teeth, even playing games on my playstation, I do in-stance.

Just my two cents,
Erisson

[yu shan]

ELPietro,

I agree about the lengthy horse training. It really seemed like a waist of time, I was alot younger then, and all I wanted to do was hard core kung fu. Did not want to second guess my Shr Fu. Now I put emphasis on precision in my MA, techs, and applications.
Oh yes, my teacher would tell us while going thru this painful ordeal, be mind strong-see thru the pain, concentrate on the breath.

Yu Shan

[Braden]

LHP - Not that he needs my backup ;) but just to make it sound more like a consensus, I agree completely with IronFist. If you want to train muscular power in your legs regardless of your kungfu, keep doing those squats. Stance holding is no substitute, it's a whole different can of beans. Just, like always, pay attention to what your body is telling you. If you always feel wrecked, tone it down a bit. If you never break a sweat, tone it UP a bit!

ElPietro - When I mentioned relaxation and expansion/posture I meant some very specific things - postural requirements that involve the entire body, and that form the foundation for everything, at least within the chinese internal arts. Some people have called this the 'ground path', an elastic connection between various parts of your body and the ground, and it is largely what gives a stylist his power. When standing, you should be training to relax while maintaining this structure. An hour is a bit long; 40 minutes is usually listed as the maximum for optimum progression.

[ElPietro]

Thanks for the responses. Braden I see your point and it makes good sense. Being able to relax while your body is tense is always good. I am only thinking that the best way to train to fight, is to fight. Perhaps 60 minutes of techniques from a horse stance would be superior to 60 minutes of just static horse stance. Or moving from stance to stance since in a real situation you will rarely stay in one set stance. But I guess for technical skill this is required, and still very beneficial.

I have always felt that much of the endurance training isn't really making you better at the art, but it is ENABLING you to become better. Endurance won't really be required in an altercation...rarely do fights last long and even if they did adrenaline will take care of that. But the added strength or mass could definitely aid in a fight. However, packing on mass and strength will cause your aerobic capacity to suffer, which means you will not be able to train as long before muscle fatigue. So it's a bit of a conundrum.

I've been a bit grumpy lately and if I've been short with ppl it's mainly because I haven't been able to train in thai boxing. I went tonight for the first class in about 2 months and I feel absolutely amazing. It's funny how pounding the crap outta stuff can make me happy again. :)

[BSH]

I have heard that there are specific Ch'i Kung done from a horse stance that can give you extraordinary rooting power. The longer you can maintain the horse stance, the longer you can do the ch'i kung and the better your rooting ability.


My thought is that if I could be rooted to the point that nobody could unroot me, that would be worth the time working on my horse stance.

Besides, if you want to do a good Lion Dance, you have to have a great horse stance.

[Braden]

EP - "I am only thinking that the best way to train to fight, is to fight."

Well, there's some truth in that. But every time you decide to through a new technique alone, then on the bags, then slowly on an unresisting partner to learn it; or hit the gym to build strength; or work through a striking drill to build reflexes, you're saying that you want to invest some time away from fighting to build a certain skill. For any skill, it's simply going to be a personal decision as to whether or not you want to invest the time to get it.

"Perhaps 60 minutes of techniques from a horse stance would be superior to 60 minutes of just static horse stance. Or moving from stance to stance since in a real situation you will rarely stay in one set stance."

Those would all be good things of course. But if you want to learn a new way to stand, not surprisingly - the best way to learn it is to practice standing!

BSH - "My thought is that if I could be rooted to the point that nobody could unroot me, that would be worth the time working on my horse stance."

Rooting is what I'm talking about here. But rooting isn't really about being able to stand still or resist force.

[Lung Hu Pai]

hey everyone, thanks for the responses.

yu shan-I study Hong Cha kung fu.

Ironfist-If you think that's psycho, my Sifu wants us to build up to a 3 hour low horse by the time we're through with our training, which is an eternity away.....:eek:

red-fists-I can't ask my Sifu about weight training because he told us we wouldn't need it and he doesn't advocate it. I've just started up again a couple of months ago becase I just always enjoyed weight training.

El Pietro-My Sifu says that doing low horse for that long periods of time will build extreme amounts of power in your legs. Once you can hold it for a while without falling repeatedly, he says to practice your animal sets and chi kung exercises. I personally also think that it's a challenge your mind kind of experience and a patience builder but that's just a guess.:confused:

BSH-Yeah, I agree with that. Once my Sifu did a demonstration where he just stood still and told me to run at him and push him as hard as I could. I just bounced off of him and he didn't even budge....

Braden-I study Hong Cha. I think I will just do gradual progression of my low horse instead of going all out at once.

Thank you everyone for your responses, I really appreciate them. I think I'm just going to have to play it by ear and see what happens. Hopefully, I'll find a positive medium. Thanks again, Azar.

[guohuen]

Hu Pai, listen to your Sifu. They know exactly what they are talking about.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Lung Hu Pai
Ironfist-If you think that's psycho, my Sifu wants us to build up to a 3 hour low horse by the time we're through with our training, which is an eternity away.....:eek:


Screw that! If someone told me that I'd throw a barbell at them. I think the most I've ever done a horse stance for was like 7 or 10 minutes, and it definately wasn't parallel.

I heard one guy on here say that doing low horse stances for a long time (like hours per day) really messed up his knees. Maybe his form was wrong or something. I forgot who it was, actually, but it was a while ago that I read that.

IronFist

[yu shan]

Braden

Very well said, thank you for the quality posts. I have observed Baquazhang players, it is amazing the "rooting power" not only stationary, but while you are walking the circle, or walking period. Baqua people seem to carry themselves differantly. My kung fu brother studied Baqua in mainland and shared alot of stories. Didn`t mean to get off the topic.

[LaterthanNever]

Which is somewhat ironic Yu Shan..since Ba Gua does NOT have any fixed stances. They are always moving and training direction.

As for what someone stated regarding an instructor not advocating weight training..well..keep in mind that the power one develops vis a vis stance training versus weight training(ie:squats, lunges,etc.) is different..

stance training(ie: sei ping ma/horse stance) develops power in the tendons and ligaments.

Squats develop muscular strength predominately.

As martial artists..one can develop more power that does not exhaust as quickly by endeavoring to use more tendon/ligament power..

Nevertheless..having high ammounts of muscular power and endurance is a definitely plus. The evidence for training with weights as an adjunct to increasing athletic performance is impressive.(it's my polite way of saying I disagree with your sifu).