Dan Tien and the Center of Gravity?

[Fu-Pow]

Mantak Chia (who BTW I think method's stink) points out in one of his books that the center of gravity of the body sits at the Dan Tien when one has correct posture.

If this is true then it would seem that the theory of Taiji centers around keeping the center of gravity at the dan tien. Movement is "around" the dan tien. Therefore in order to move something forward, something must move back and vice versa.

Most other martial arts because of their rigidity cannot do this. Although they do have a crude sense of this balance, Ultimately the center of gravity moves up out of the dan tien causing the root of the structure to become unstable.

The purpose of Zhan Zhang then is to become aware of this "center of gravity". At the end of each posture we are told to "settle the chi to the dantien." Does this really mean to check that our center of gravity is back at the dan tien?

And the sensitivity from Taiji comes from having an awareness of when ones center of gravity is being manipulated. And listening is determining where your opponents center of gravity is. Attacking is disrupting your opponents center of gravity by joining it to your own, splitting it, etc. etc.


Any thoughts on this on this concept. It just occured to me the other day.

And of course there are other things involved such as mechanics, relaxed muscles, intent, etc. But mechanically it seems this is how Taiji and other internal arts work.

[GLW]

BINGO!!!

Taiji Quan - as opposed to how many people may translate it does NOT mean the Grand Ultimate Fist as in the best style.

Taiji is made up of two characters that mean one thing separately...when put together, they mean the Grand Terminus, the Yin/Yang, The Miraculuous Pivot, The Grand ultimate...all in relation to the idea of Yin and Yang..that all things can be conceived as starting in nothing..and then dividing into two parts...and one is Yin while one is Yang.

Keeping in mind the ideas...the Yin and Yang...well one part advances and another retreats....just as you surmised.

The Miraculuous Pivot...can be applied to the body and yo come up with the center of mass...which ends up at the Tan Tien....Bingo again.

In physics, when you do models of mechanics and statics, you simplify things by making them point masses...that is that all of the mass of a body is concentrated at a single point - the center of mass. Bingo again.

efficient movement then comes from making sure that all of the motive force goes as if it originated from and through this center of mass...simple physics...bingo again....

Applying this to another person...rooting their force down through your center of mass and then to the root....most efficeient for neutralizing and absorbing or flowing with force...bingo again....

It is all physics and even the name of the art hints at this idea...

(as an aside...the actual Tan Tien is at the point...but actually inside the body...midway..so it truly becomes the center of breath..but also the center of mass.

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks for the emphatic reply. Anyone else have any thoughts about this? This kind of ties in the whole internal vs. external debate.

[count]

I think you're on to something. Keep it up. :)

[red_fists]

Fu Pow.

I definately think you are on the right track here.

I have seen Tai Chi translated as:

Great Empirical Fist.
Great Limitless(all encompassing) Fist

From what I heard:

Great Ultimate Fist

acutally is a misreading of the Chinese Characters

[Nexus]

Also it may be helpful to be aware that the dan tien can be thought of as wherever the mind is settled in an energy gate. The lower dan tien is just one of the many dan tiens throughout the body. The body itself could be thought of as a dantien in and of itself as well.

[shaolinboxer]

In aikido, this is called "maintaining onepoint" or "creating a dynamic sphere". The dantien acts as the center of the sphere, from which the body/ki radiates outward, and the extremeties describe the surface of the sphere.

The phrase "keep weight underside" is equivalent to "rooting".

[Fu-Pow]

Great post Wujidude. Very well thought out.

Interesting you bring up the Mingmen point. That may be another discussion that I start.

[Fu-Pow]

I remember reading back a few months ago an article by a Chen Taiji practitioner who was saying that the goal in Taijiquan was to "lock out" the Mingmen point of your opponent, without having your's "locked out."

I didn't really know what this meant until the other day. I was doing a stepping push hand excercise with my teacher. To describe it briefly one person puts their bent arm out in front of their body and assumes a shallow bow stance. The other person puts their palms on the other persons elbow and wrist.

As the person with the palms out steps forward and pushes slightly the other person retreats and follows.

Now what I noticed is that when I stepped back my teacher would add to my backward energy. The sensation was like being folded in half and pushed back. It was like my lower body separated from my upper body rendering me helpless. The "folding point" seemed to correspond to the ming men point.

Any thoughts on this.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“GLW is correct in that the "taiji" in "taijiquan" refers to the yin-yang symbol, yin and yang changing around the grand ultimate "pole". Although Chen style partisans may dispute this, the first use of the term "taijiquan" to describe this martial art most probably was in Beijing in 1852 or afterwards, when Yang Luchan first brought it to the Manchu capital. Yang himself didn't call it taijiquan (it was referred to as "mien quan" or "hua quan" ). The Chen family art was called "pao chui" (cannon fist). Now I'm not saying the Chen family didn't practice taijiquan or teach taijiquan to Yang Luchan. I'm just saying that they did not call it taijiquan”


Question from what I have read and heard Yang’s style and usage reflected his ideas before introducing it to the capital where many say he then changed the movements to hid the true art.

What are your thoughts on this, do you feel this accounts for some of the very different view points presented by different sects of TC?

[bamboo_ leaf]

Wow, quite an answer. ;)

Thank you, it would seem that much of what you have wrote I have felt through reading and in talking with people. But never really saw it laid out in such a clear way.

How would you define progress in TC? or maybe this should be another thread.

Fow Pow,

A little off your topic sorry :cool:

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Excellent Post!! Just to add a little perspective to Wujidude's reference to Cai Song Feng's teachings.. I took a weekend seminar with Cai Song Feng about 3-4 years ago, and the entire weekned was spent analyzing and practicing Wuji standing meditation.. (untill the last 2 hours, where he demonstrated some amazing internal abilities).. but, his description of your 'center" is the intersection of two lines, one line runs from Baihui to Huiyin, the other from a point two finger widths below the navel to the Mingmen.. he had us "put our minds there", not think about being there.. but, perceive how the world looks from that place.. how it might feel to deal with the world from that vantage point.. how our relationship with our bodies would change if the mind resided there..

After at least 5 hours of Wuji meditation over the weekend (arms relaxed, thumbs at the Gallbladder points) and sensing our physical being from a different perspective, i must confess that the accumalated Chi and advantage of broader perspectives greatly improved my Tai Chi.. i finally understood how important and why the Lower DanTien affects the quality of Tai Chi.. More importantly, from the perspective of applications the lower perspective (from the center) almost assures correct "small circle rotation".. from that vantage point the mind directs the Chi appropriately, in proper perspective..

Cai Song Feng's ability to move each of the more than 40 attendees, regardless of size and resistance, with no more pressure that is require to move a heavy bag +/- 4 inches was simply punishing to the recipient's ego.. (a humbling experience).. it was a seminar well worth the money and time.. even today i practice +/- 30 minutes of wuji daily (discounting life's little surprises).. and, the ability to sense one's center and "be there" is priceless.. by the way, this "center perspective" translates nicely to the sparring arena...

just another perspective from the Far-side..

[Fu-Pow]

Another factor that might tie into the Dan Tien is the large amount of nerves that reside in this area of the body.

In medical terms the large intestine area is sometime referred to as the "second brain."

For example, when you get nervous you feel "butterflies"
in your stomach.

Or you may have heard the expression "gut feeling."