Aikido worked

[shaolinboxer]

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2002/March/16/local/stories/02local.htm

March 16, 2002



Black-belt prosecutor stops fleeing prisoner cold
By JASON SCHULTZ

Sentinel staff writer

SANTA CRUZ — A prosecutor specializing in white-collar crime got to show off his black belt in aikido on Friday when he took down a fleeing inmate at the county courthouse.

Dave Genochio, with the District Attorney’s Office for more than 20 years, was sitting in the gallery in Judge Art Danner’s courtroom around 10 a.m.

Hearing a commotion, he looked up and saw 29-year-old Peter Hurd of Olympic Valley, clad in a jail-issue orange jumpsuit, leap through the jury box trying to flee the courtroom. Several bailiffs and other prosecutors were in hot pursuit.

Genochio, who holds a black belt in the martial art of aikido, stood up and threw a move called the "tenchi nage."

Santa Cruz Aikido instructor Michael Chojnacki said the name translates to "heaven and earth throw."

Genochio compared the move to a wrestling move known as a "clothesline." He threw his left arm across Hurd’s upper body from his shoulder to his waist.

Hurd came to an abrupt stop, and Genochio drove the inmate into a row of seats, where both were tackled by the pursuing bailiffs.

Neither Hurd nor Genochio were hurt.

"It was awesome," said prosecutor Jeff Rossell, who was in the courtroom. "It was like poetry in motion."

Genochio said he "just reacted. I was just thinking, ‘He is not getting out that door.’ "

Aikido centers on immobilizing attackers without hurting them, unlike kung fu or more traditional types of karate that focus of punches and kicks, Chojnacki said.

Hurd was facing charges of burglary, vandalism and battery.

Prosecutors will now add attempted escape to the list.

[Sho]

Originally posted by shaolinboxer
Aikido centers on immobilizing attackers without hurting them, unlike kung fu or more traditional types of karate that focus of punches and kicks, Chojnacki said.So true. There is also a greater chance that the target won't avenge, because the fight doesn't leave him as bitter as if he was beaten up. When people are beaten up and left angry, they tend to have revenge with more brutal consequences (like Germany after WWI).

[yenhoi]

Lol @ the germany comment.

[Sho]

Well, isn't it true? :)

[yenhoi]

At its very basics, yes, but its awful funny that you used that as your example. :D

Kind of like using Nagasaki as an example of overwelming power. :eek:

[Budokan]

The Germany comment doesn't always apply. Look at France. They were beaten up and left for bloody and all they did is...surrender.

[kungfu cowboy]

Aikido has cool stuff, and that revenge concept may be true, although I would think maybe not as they would still view themselves as being beaten, therefor humiliation would still be an issue, so back to revenge. I wonder how the severity of beating influences the intensity of revenge when injury is a variable.

[joedoe]

I actually think I would be more humiliated if I got beaten by an opponent that never threw a punch or kick :)

[yenhoi]

I dunno, if anger WASENT the reason for fighting in the first place, wouldent being beaten by a 'peaceful "art"' make someone more likely to seek revenge?

[Braden]

Cool story, but...

Isn't the move described an iriminage, not a tenchinage?

As an aside, I've never understood the claim that aikido was designed not to cause any harm.

[Leonidas]

You got a point there. Getting your ass kicked when the guy didn't even really lift his leg or move at all just plain sux. He basically tossed his ass around like a rag doll with a lift of his arm. The old "martial arts master defeats newbie without breaking a sweat" scenerio (we all wanna be that one day :D). I think if i'd ever commited a crime and anyone stopped me from getting out of prison time i'd be ****ed regardless of how he did it. I'd be ****ed at the jury, the judge, the witnesses, the prosecutor. It doesn't take much to set someone off. If they attack you for no reason in the first place then a defeat is a good enough reason as any. A loss is a loss.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by Braden
Cool story, but...

Isn't the move described an iriminage, not a tenchinage?

As an aside, I've never understood the claim that aikido was designed not to cause any harm.

It has to do with the teachings of the founder, he wanted a MA that was more designed for spiritutal development than killing and injuring.

Morihei Ueshiba was a devout Budhist and thus hated causing any form of suffering or pain.

Said that both Aikido & Daito Ryu contain deadly force moves as a last resort option.

A lot of people claim that Aikido has parts of TCC or Bagua in it, for which no documented proof exists.
Aikido, Aiki-jutsu & Tai-Jutsu are also often classed as Internal Martial Arts.

[Braden]

"It has to do with the teachings of the founder, he wanted a MA that was more designed for spiritutal development than killing and injuring."

Maybe in the later days. But then we should say, aikido has been developed by some of it's practitioners into an art which was designed not to cause harm.

"Morihei Ueshiba was a devout Budhist and thus hated causing any form of suffering or pain."

I thought he was a Shintoist. Curious that he would have joined the army and become an avid martial artist if those were his beliefs though. ;)

"Aikido, Aiki-jutsu & Tai-Jutsu are also often classed as Internal Martial Arts."

By who?

[red_fists]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Braden

Maybe in the later days. But then we should say, aikido has been developed by some of it's practitioners into an art which was designed not to cause harm.

I will get back to you on that after I spoke to one of Ueshiba's direct Students. We share the same Dojo space.


I thought he was a Shintoist. Curious that he would have joined the army and become an avid martial artist if those were his beliefs though. ;)

Doubt that considering that at a young age he wanted to become a buddhist priest. But than most Japanese follow both Shinto & Buddhism in their lifes.

Yes, he joined the Army as he loved MA.
But Aikido also means the "Way of Peace".


"Aikido, Aiki-jutsu & Tai-Jutsu are also often classed as Internal Martial Arts."

By who?

By a lot of people, look for yourself into their teachings and you will find many parallels. Like usage of Ki/Qi/Chi, breathing, deflection of attack, little use of muscular power, overcoming big force with little force.

Read a Book called "Ki no Renmei" which is a Qi-Gong(Ki-Ko) technic that was developed for Aikido by 9th Dan Tada Hiroshi, direct Student of Morihei Ueshiba.

It is all about how the correct breathing to the Tan-Ten(Dan-Tien), Body alignment and structure can be used to enhance Aikido.

There are many MA outside of China that follow similar principles.

[Black Jack]

Braden I think we are booth in agreement, due to our old discussions on the subject, that in the beginning Aikido was not geared for the hippy crowd, as a number of its schools seem to be in today's enviroment, for those that are just fascinated with its philosophies, in the beginning it had a serious martial/combative mindset.

I think it was Gozo Shidoa of the Yoshinkan lineage that stated that 90% of Aikido was atemi, something that from what I hear is neglected in some modern aikido schools, which was one of ther reasons I was worried for a buddy of mine who I thought was entering a KI school but found out he is entering the organization of Chiba instead, which from what I have found out is much more martial in mindset.

NEVER will I be in the believe that their is a non-violent martial art, that is bunk, trying not to hurt the other guy in a serious situation IMHO will get you hurt, the example up above was not a balls to the wall street slugfest, it was of a LEO restraint atmosphere.

My thoughts,

[red_fists]

Black Jack & Braden.

Don't take my word for it, rather read the following 2 Biographies of the man himself.

The 1st Link is an online copy of his "Art of Peace".

http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/users/paloma/Aikido/artpeace.html
http://www.cs.ucsd.edu/users/paloma/Aikido/morihei.html
http://www.aikidofaq.com/history/osensei.html

Yes, there were disagreements with his philosphoy and thus we now got several styles of Aikido around as some of his Students split of and did their own thing.

Some things might also seem familiar to the JKD guys.

[red_fists]

Braden.

Just checked.

We both are correct:

Morihei Ueshiba also pursued spiritual studies --- as a child he studied Zen under Mitsujo Fujimoto of the Shigon School of Buddhism.

He later embraced the Shinto sect Omoto-kyo founded by Wanisaburo Deguchi.

Seeya.

[Braden]

Redfists - I did not claim he never spoke of using aikido as an art of peace. I said it wasn't designed that way. What exactly am I supposed to garner from those links that disagrees with this?

"Yes, there were disagreements with his philosphoy"

No, there's no disagreements. Shioda studied aikido with MU when he was martially minded. Later, MU no longer saw the need to train the populace in martial skills, but did see some other needs, so changed what he was active in. Shioda didn't want to be part of this change, so he formed the Yoshinkan to preserve the old way. MU supported this, and the two organizations have always been friendly. Other people studied with MU at this point, and their idea of aikido reflects this. We see similar things in other peoples aikido. Where's the disagreement?

Blackjack - I know Gozo Shioda said that (re: atemi) about aikido, but I believe it was said by many others as well. Kenji Tomiki said that aikido was a methodology for training with relative safety in striking and joint attacks, analogously to how judo was intended as a methodology for training throws and grappling. I think if you examine the techniques, this makes sense.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by Braden
Redfists - I did not claim he never spoke of using aikido as an art of peace. I said it wasn't designed that way. What exactly am I supposed to garner from those links that disagrees with this?

The 1st Link shows that Aikido does share a lot of Internal principles.
And that is why I put there.

The others are just for info.

[Braden]

Oh. I thought they related to aikido not being meant to hurt people. I've actually heard alot of people call aikido internal; it's more taijutsu and aikiJJ that I wondered about.

Could you quote some of the internal principles from the links?

BTW, here's a list to the taiji classics if you want something to compare with http://scheele.org/lee/classics.html .

[red_fists]

Eighty Nine

Even the most powerful human being has a limited sphere of strength. Draw him outside of that sphere and into your own, and his strength will dissipate.

Eighty Five

When attacked, unify the upper, middle, and lower parts of your body. Enter, turn,
and blend with your opponent, front and back, right and left.

Eighty Two

There are two type of ki: ordinary ki and true ki. Ordinary ki is coarse and heavy; true ki is light and versatile. In order to perform well, you have to liberate yourself from ordinary ki and permeate your organs with true ki. That is the basis of powerful technique.

Eighty One

In our techniques we enter completely into, blend totally with, and control firmly an attack. Strength resides where one's ki is concentrated and stable; confusion and maliciousness arise when ki stagnates.

Sixty Five

When an opponent comes forward, move in and greet him; if he wants to pull back, send him on his way.

Sixty Three

The techniques of the Art of Peace are neither fast nor slow, nor are they inside or outside. They transcend time and space.

Sixty One

Functioning harmoniously together, right and left give birth to all techniques. The left hand takes hold of life and death; the right hand controls it. The four limbs of the body are the four pillars of heaven, and manifest the eight directions, yin and yang, inner and outer.

Sixty Two

Manifest yang
In your right hand,
Balance it with
The yin of your left,
And guide your partner.

Fifty Six

A good stance and posture reflect a proper state of mind.

Fifty Seven

The key to good technique is to keep your hands, feet, and hips straight and centered. If you are centered, you can move freely. The physical center is your belly; if your mind is set there as well, you are assured of victory in any endeavor.

Forty Nine

The heart of a human being is no different from the soul of heaven and earth. In your practice always keep in your thoughts the interaction of heaven and earth, water and fire, yin and yang.

Fifty

The Art of Peace is the principle of nonresistance. Because it is nonresistant, it is victorious from the beginning. Those with evil intentions or contentious thoughts are instantly vanquished. The Art of Peace is invincible because it contends with nothing.

Maybe it is me, but these and some others remind me very much of what is written in the Tai Chi Classics.

But I let everyone decide for themselves.
:cool: :cool:

[myosimka]

fascinating discussion and I don't mean to detract from it but I felt that someone should point out that this thread name is misleading. According to the story, aikido worked in a situation where the aikidoist suckers the other guy. It wasn't self-defense. It wasn't even a fight. Someone could have just as easily stuck one leg out in front of him like you did in grade school. If I am running down a hall and some guy jumps out and kicks me in the balls, it doesn't mean that TKD works. That's all. Just wanted to say it. Carry on.

[yenhoi]

I dunno if the guy suckered him.

But all he did was clothsline him, and ya, it probably would have stopped the guy even if the aikidoist wasent and aikidoist.

If all conditions are right, its concievable that I could knock you out with a jab - does that make my jab at that point a sucker punch?

[shaolinboxer]

The most interesting thing to me about aikido is that when people give their impressions...a martial art, a hippie communion ritual, an art of peace, a safe method of practicing joint locks and throws...it is ALL of those things. In one class, I often go from slow cooperative training (almost like casual conversation) to intense, more martial training (with people resiting, screwing with your head, striking your open areas, etc). I have been instructed in hippie circle walking, and old school daitoryu derived disabling techniques.

When you add all of these things up, from the most practical to the most spiritual, you get something like aikido.

[Black Jack]

Myosimka,

That was a funny post:D

Back on the aspect of Aikido, I find it to be a very interesting art, but one where IMHO you should have a strong striking background before you undertake its studies, just for the sheer fact that you really don't know what kind of training you are going to be running into, that and its always very important to know how to strike and be aggressive.

Peace,

[shaolinboxer]

Black Jack -

Yes, you can really tell a differnce in aikidoka who know how to strike, and those who don't.

[Rolling Elbow]

This is like sticking a stick between the spokes of a bycicle!!!

This is not a demonstration of aikido working, but of "surprise attacks" working. A 12 year old girl could have stuck out her leg and accomplished the same thing. running+unexpected force that interrupts= ass over tea-kettle.

I would have been more impressed if the guy stopped and threatened to kick the prosecutors but and then he pulled some sweet aikido off of the attack.

[shaolinboxer]

Rolling Elbow -

That's a fairly good description. Is aikido amazingly simple, yet effective?

[Black Jack]

Aikido tends to have a bad rep as of its street ability, I don't know enough to be sure if this is because of a lack of gross motor skills, to much attention paid to fine joint manipulations, which are very hard to do under stress, or if its just a case of the hippy crowd watering down what once was and I am sure still is with certain teachers, a martial system.

Intell I attend a aikido class, not just watch, discuss and meet players, I have done that, I will save my final feelings, though from what I have seen, it has a long learning curve, at least from what I have witnessed and been told.

I hear Robert Koga has a good eye towards getting things up to speed on a quicker level, either way, a good striking background is a good idea.

[shaolinboxer]

Wujidude -

Tenchinage IS a koyunage. Koyunage, "breathing/timing throws", are a broad group of which tenchinage, tekubitori, iriminage, etc are a part. I believe you are thinking he did an iriminage.

Tenchinage does not require contact with two hands. A double grip, such as the one you described, would be one of the basic methods of practice...but in application and advanced practice you hands can be free to lead and/or strike. The throw can be done by contacting with both hands, either hand, or no hands at all.

[kungfuyou]

I have always thought of studying Aikido as a roller coaster. When you learn the basic of techniques you go slow, much like the assention on a roller coaster in the begining. Once you get to a certain point and understand the techniques and know how to use them and put them together, this is the downside of the roller coaster ride that is "cool" looking with all the twists, the speed, and the strength it can produce. It all flows together in circular movements, and it stops where you started with no one hurt!! :D

[shinbushi]

Originally posted by red_fists

Aikido, Aiki-jutsu & Tai-Jutsu are also often classed as Internal Martial Arts.
jujutsu and taijutsu are terms for Japanese classical close quarters combat. Nothing to do with ki (chi).

[popsider]

Long time ago but is Iriminage where you initially take the opponent in the direction they were going before coiling back on them with some sort of "clothes line" throw ?

[shaolinboxer]

Popsider: Yes, something like that.

[Leonidas]

I guess my question is will Aikido work in a everyman for himself all out drunken bar brawl? Everyone swinging at everyone else, punches traveling to your face at what seems like lightspeed, maybe even a few knives or broken bottles heading your way and your in the dead center of it. I know its called the "peaceful art" but all martial arts should allow you to atleast survive a 5 or 10 man free for all with just your life even if you get battered up abit, atleast long enough to run for your life. Hell can break loose at anytime in a crowd of people even if you have nothing to do with it............sh!t happens is all i can say. Whats even worse is 3 or 4 people with all their attention and violent tendencies directed at you, whatever their motives. Any resident Aikido experts wanted on this one.

[dezhen2001]

Leonidas: will any art help you do that? If you train hard, understand the system and basically have the courage and mental attitude to survive - maybe. if not, then ur bugggered either way really...

david

[Grappling-Insanity]

Any martial art that limits what you can do in a situation, is a bad one IMO.

[dezhen2001]

most martial arts limit what you can do in a situation because you can't cover EVERY eventuality that can happen. real fighting=chaos. Just try to survive it as intact as possible!

david

[Leonidas]

I understand how a percussive art can help you to survive that situation. I can even understand how a grappling art like Jujutsu/do or Shuai Chiao would be able to, but what i have seen of Aikido the throws are usually performed against highly telegraphed highly commited straight punches. I'm just trying to understand Aikido a little better. I have dozens of misconceptions and assumptions about it that im trying to get rid of, so now is as good a time as any to get rid of them

[dezhen2001]

u should check out the thread in the 'other related arts' section. It's got some things about aikido there...

It's saved my @ss in most club/pub scuffles i've been in before i did gong fu.

david

[Leonidas]

uh...........thats it. I'm pretty sure i read most of the threads about Aikido and i never saw an answer to a question like that. Weren't that many threads about Aikido anyhow. Mostly Aikido vs Kung Fu....

[Former castleva]

Actually...
Aikido does not "have" deadly force movements,you often hear someone say how "this and this teacher does this hard aikido,throws me around,Wow.He broke my arms!!" :D
But the true source of aikido is non-violence,"original aikido/aikibudo was deadly,but that was that,and it is old/former way.
When Ueshiba grew up spiritually he learned that aikido shall be way of harmony/love.
You could easily turn aikido into jujutsu/aikijujutsu-for those familiar with jujutsu:
ikkyo:take-down could easily been turned into an elbow break.
You could use tenchinage or iriminage to break someone´s neck
A powerful kotegaeshi can easily be turned to a wrist crush
As an example(s).
There are those downsides:
It is nearly impossible (or at least impractical) to try to fight more than one attackers withouh injuring them.

For my posts may have some "holes" in them (Probably has something to do with my ignorance),you may ask personal
questions.OR go directly to aikidojournal.com or stevenseagal.com my favourite aikido sites.