Ground Fighting and Kung Fu: part 2

[Shooter]

How many of the grapplers here have trained outside in the elements?

What about scenario training? - Rage attacks, duels, random violent attacks, the opponent draws a weapon after you've clinched or tied up, etc?

How have the differing terrains and environs altered your dynamic?

[Badger]

I have trained on concrete,hard & soft dirt, grass,bitter cold weather, HOTTT(Texas)weather,Weapon attacks(knife & stick),suprise attacks,etc.

As fars as surfaces go nothing more than skinned knees & elbows.
Weather & different surfaces will only make you tougher.
The knife is the biggest concern on the ground.
You def. dont want to play with a knifefighter in the guard.
I do believe grappling is better than striking for weapon defenses IMHO.


Badger

[Shooter]

Badger, what effect (if any) did the differing terrains have on your commital to enga... close the distance?

How wary were you of throwing and being thrown on harder terrain?

Did you give any focus to gaining advantage in the varying elevations on uneven ground?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Badger

I do believe grappling is better than striking for weapon defenses IMHO.

Badger

In what sense do you believe it is better? Would you advocate taking a weapon-wielding attacker to the ground or are you talking abour stand-up grappling?

I am just curious because I have very little knowledge of groundwork :)

[Badger]

Closing the distance: The main thing is on slippery ground you want to be careful about kicking(esp. high) or you will bust your butt.
Double legs work well for me in this conditions.

Throwing: Knowing how to fall & "rolling with it" help.
Of course I am careful not to slam my partners on concrete.

Gaining advantage on uneven ground: Well yea..like if someone stumbles or steps in a hole by accident its time to close the gap.
I also like taking advantage of clothing as well.
Pulling t-shirts over heads, rolling up their shirt for choking,using their headband as a garrote.

Weapons: I feel I have more control over the weapon Standing grappling or on the ground, esp. the cross-mount position.


Badger

[Water Dragon]

Badger, Have you ever checked out Victor Ke in Dallas?

[joedoe]

Interesting thoughts. I don't know about other striking arts, but we learn a lot of what you talked about there as well (closing the gap, controlling the weapong etc), and we don't advocate high kicking in a fight situation either.

[LEGEND]

How many of the grapplers here have trained outside in the elements?
"It's funny...but grapplers have trouble finding mats...so we end up rolling on hard surfaces all the time...skin burns are the most common...OUCH."

What about scenario training? - Rage attacks, duels, random violent attacks, the opponent draws a weapon after you've clinched or tied up, etc?
"Funny thing about scenario training is you alwayz go back to a BASIC instinct for survival. For some people it's a one punch tactic even if they're pro boxer level( lennox and mike )...where's the combo??? Emotion plays a big part in a real fight and causes fine art( boxing combo ) skill to not be present...other grappling arts that are complicated like akido has problems operating in this stress level. If u're a striker work hard on your right cross and knee tactics till you regain your composure( emotional content )...for grapplers work hard on a double leg and non complicated takedown tactics. Knife scenarios I have practiced somewhat...it's primarily to control the knife hand with as much power as possible even if u're getting punched! Then try to disarm him thru biting or whatever."

How have the differing terrains and environs altered your dynamic?
"I feel this helps the grappler tremendously...especially if u're the aggressor...nothing more satisfying then taking an opponent and slaming him onto concrete or wood. This enviornment would be ideal for streetfighting buttttttt horrible for training."

[Badger]

Combat Shuai Chiao,right? Never have.
I would be interested though.
Do you have more info?


Badger

[Ford Prefect]

I've trained grappled on a concrete basement floor, hardwood floor, my tv room with all couches and tables fair play, artificial turf, grass, and snow. None of the surfaces changed my tactics. I did have to mix things up in the living room because it was like close-quarter grappling since you were usually wedged between two peices of furniture.

Grappling with a knife takes practice and you definately have to train it in order to grapple effectively with one. Obviously control of the weapon weilding limb is important.

I'm sure Knifefighter could answer this one better than I.

[neito]

are'nt knife defences in most systems grappling/locking/grabbing based, or by grappling do you only mean on the ground guard/mount/sidemount type positions. personally i can't see someone doing knife defences without some sort of grappling. If any body does knife defences without grabbing or sticking to the guy please enlighten me. i cant visualise how it works. - thanks

[yenhoi]

neito:

Punch him in the head.

You just better be **** good.

[neito]

i see, so basically hurt him so much that he cant fight or drops the weapon. it makes sense now. for some reason i did'nt think of that

[Water Dragon]

Sorry Badger, I don't. There's an e-mail address on www.combatshuaichiao.com. If you don't get a responce from Mr. Ke, try and contact Mr. Lin. I've contacted him in the past via e-mail and he has been very cordial and accomodating. I think you might like the group due to the nature of some of your posts. Check them out if you have a chance.

[yenhoi]

Alot of it would have to do with how the opponent is holding the knife, how he is moving it, and how long/what type of knife it is: but i would say if you trained it and drilled on a regular basis, you should have a "good chance" of disarming an opponent armed with a knife. If the opponent is trained to use knifes in combat, then I dont think you have even a marginal chance of getting hold of the weapon / disarming in anyway, striking or grappling.

Maybe, but, combat is combat.

[Badger]

I will check it out.



Badger

[Shooter]

Thanks for the responses so far. Interesting...

"Martial art is like wisdom - The quality that keeps you out of situations where you need it"

I paraphrased that axiom to apply to fighting, or more specifically, to not fighting.

What I was hoping for is how different climate and terrain can contribute to your applied psych tactics in dealing with, and avoiding confrontation. How far do these ideas extend in how you develop training methods to address your overall enviro-awareness?

The reason I asked grapplers initially is because we are more apt to enga...close the distance by virtue of habit and practice than our non-grappling brothers. (not a blanket statement by any means) With that, this can apply to everyone, and I hope everyone who reads this thread will consider responding.

Generally, we all know better than to move explosively on loose or sllippery ground (or do we?). How can this double-edged intuitive sensibility play to your favor? How do you utilize the present terrain to effect strategic advantage in this regard?

How (if at all) has Sun Tzu's Art Of War helped you in developing psychological strategies as they apply to H2H fighting? Do you have other resources which address the same strategic studies as Art Of War does?

[LEGEND]

To me the ART OF WAR is a philosophy...and something I don't think students should put into practice in a STREETFIGHT. WHY??? The art of war was design for military objectives...a street fight is soooooo emotional based...it's like u're mother's a biatch...no...yours!!! etc...and the fight happens. The Art of War is more for military armies that has some sort of intel on an opponent. You don't have that type of LUXURY or TIME to say well...he's too big...must evade. Etc...so I would recommend for streetfighting more modern books written by bouncers and some well known self defense instructors. The Art of War is a great book though...but more for military and business applications.

[Shooter]

LEGEND, I agree with your basic premise, but what about high-ground? High, sunny side? These aren't obscure relationships to H2H. I believe they're directly pertinent.

Nine Grounds is a study of environmental resources which apply directly as well. AOW is mostly figurative in its presentation as pertaining to H2H, but also quite applicable in the same token.

I believe the entire book is useful, but wanted input such as yours. Thanks. :)

What about Book Of Five Rings?

[LEGEND]

Shooter...once again...street fighting is emotional base not logical! It's so unexpected that u go in not thinking about consequences. No preparation...no time to think about this or that. It really is the worst scenario to be in for any human being. Like face with an oncoming drunk driver...u can only REACT! The problem with PLANNING is that it doesn't deal with the emotional stress involved. U have no INTELLIGENCE info. so books like 5 rings...art of war etc...just really doesn't equate to street fighting...will help u in an all out war! But a street fight is so general. More and more it's so basic...why do u see boxers unable to throw combinations in real fights...the emotion freezes them...I would recommend more research into materials by tony blauer etc...

[joedoe]

I may be completely wrong, but can't the principles of AOW be applied in a fight situation? Of course you don't have the time to gather intel, analyse, then decide on a course of action the same way you do in war, but a similar process can occur in a split-second. Like any fight skill, strategy and tactic have their place but they have to be drilled and practised to be useful in the compressed time frames of a fight.

Then again, I could be talking out of my poop chute :)

[Shooter]

LEGEND, yes! Emotional...but also intuitive, yes? Which brings us back to the suggestion that there is a double-edged psychological nature to how people PERCEIVE advantage.

Random violent attacks and surprise attacks don't afford any preparatory tactics, but those are aspects to how one trains to "prepare" as in Blauer's approach, and that of other systems.

Really though, this is drifting into the realm of what people do to paint the bull's eye on their back. All interconnected, but quite separate facets of the whole.

[Shooter]

joedoe, that's exactly where I was hoping this discussion would go... :) Not your chute! :mad:

[Water Dragon]

Maybe it could work, but to do so you'd have to be constantly evaluating and re-evaluating potential strategy based upon the constant change in your immediate surroundings. Then, you'd have to choose a strategy based upon those prior observations when fist exposed to a potential confrontation. Basically, you'd have to go through your whole life trying to think of all the possible attacks before they occurred. Seems like a lot of thinking for me.

I think it's possible, but I don't feel it's feasible. At least not for me.

[LEGEND]

Shooter...it's pretty tough...what I try to do is emphasis ONE attack that catches u're opponent off guard...like a right cross/clinch( for bigger peeps ) or a leg takedown( for smaller peeps )from there attempt to hold TIGHT and concentrate on regaining your composure...hopefully based on your training in the clinch or ground...u can revert to an autopilot mode to finish your opponent. All and all it's tough. If u're going to strategize make it simple...I've done many many thoughts on this...what would I do against someone bigger...smaller etc...if it was in a club...bar...parking lot...ended up being the same.

Bullies or thugs usually attempt to pick on the smaller preys...however if u resist and resist in a shocking manner it will throw their confidence out of whack...hopefully u're confidence will be lighting up if u're scoring on them. I've faught bigger guys in street fights when u show them some form of agression...it's surprising how they end up freezing when u're trying to eye gouge them...or grabbing and squeezing their throats...etc...

[Shooter]

Water Dragon, agreed. Moving away from the cognitive process of those evaluations and relegating them to an intuitive process is the stuff of efficiency in acquiring awareness and not presenting the bull's eye. What are your own observations as to how this process occurs within your intuitive awareness?

LEGEND, once again, I agree with what you're saying as it's been my experience as well. What you're talking about is reactive or responsive measures in regard to attacks and direct threats.

I was hoping to get some ideas as to how one avoids those situations through what Water Dragon was alluding to. Also, in regard to direct threat, how have you broken down the antagonist's commital to pursuing a violent solution as opposed to your own attempts at resolving it? Dailogue? Positional/enviro-maneuvering? Posture? What subliminal psych-tactics have you applied intuitively and only later recognized as having an effect on the other guy?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
Maybe it could work, but to do so you'd have to be constantly evaluating and re-evaluating potential strategy based upon the constant change in your immediate surroundings. Then, you'd have to choose a strategy based upon those prior observations when fist exposed to a potential confrontation. Basically, you'd have to go through your whole life trying to think of all the possible attacks before they occurred. Seems like a lot of thinking for me.

I think it's possible, but I don't feel it's feasible. At least not for me.

But isn't that essentially what you are trying to achieve except in an extremely compressed time frame? You need to be aware of your surroundings, the location of your opponent(s), and what your opponent(s) are trying to do. You then have to decide what is the best way to extricate yourself safely from the situation. Essentially you are applying strategy and tactic to the situation, but the process occurs in a split second because you have trained and drilled your responses.

I agree that you have to keep the strategies and tactics simple and easy to execute, but that does not take away from the fact that you could use principles from the AOW as part of your response set. I am not talking about using every part of AOW, just distilling the most useful principles.

[Dark Knight]

I teach knife, Ill agree here, getiing ahold of a knife and disarms are not nearly as easy as most people think. If he has a knife you need to grab something to fight with.

[Shooter]

ttt

[rogue]

Basically, you'd have to go through your whole life trying to think of all the possible attacks before they occurred. Seems like a lot of thinking for me. Well you'd really just have to do this in whatever is your current environment. It's really easy to do just going about your daily routines and asking "what if?" and look at the variables. IMO strikers should occaisionaly train on uneven terrain with lots of foot obstacles and grapplers should train on hard terrain.

[Water Dragon]

You know, now that I'm thinking about this post again, maybe it can be done.

What I can tell you is that myself and the majority of my aquaintence tend to be one helluva lot more aware of our surroundings than people I've met from outside of the hood. We also tend to be a lot more suspicious by nature. It's not hard to put me on the defensive. If I pick up something, even just a vibe, I'm suspicious of you and will be for a long time (read months or years)

Most of my friends are the same. We will be outside at times, just talking or drinking, and at the same time we will allstop the conversation, observe something we all noticed, and go back to what we were doing as if nothing happened.

What I can't tell you is how we all came to be that way or how someone could reproduce it. That's just how everyone I know is. Even my wife is the same.

[Shooter]

Thanks, Rogue and Water Dragon. Both your thoughts on the intuitive insights are what I was hoping would come out of the questions I asked.

[Fred Sanford]

Not in any particular order.

1. Terrain- equal or superior footing
2. Escape routes- yours and theirs
3. Associates- do they have friends, how many?
4. Cover/Concealment- do you really think that table will stop a bullet? if so nice knowing you....
5. Weapons- chairs, pens, staplers,knives, guns.....anything in the area that can be used as a weapon
6. hands- what are their hands doing?

[Black Jack]

Knife defenses,

At this point in time little changes defensively in regards to edged weapons. I still adhere to disarming through pain and by pain I mean striking before control.

I think it's wishfull thinking to slap a joint manipulation on a ****ed off attacler who is coming at you with blazing fast multiple angles & combinations. We are not talking about the good uke here who comes in with robotic, hollywood style, telegraphed attacks. This would be a non-compliant knifer.

Put into the equation that he may be bloody, sweaty, hoped up on drugs or maybe even a EDP, plus by this time you may have serious oxygen starvation from running, fighting with the attacker or his palls, than chasing around after the knife is the last thing I want to focus on and for that matter so is going to the ground on "purpose" with an attacker armed with a edged weapon.

Control is fine after I have beat on him and or his weapon limb, kinda a reversed "pat wrap and attack" method with it being more "attack wrap and attack" If I can control the knife limb I am still going to deliver blows in conjunction with other options.

Other techincal aspects to me include simultaneous jamming/hitting, redirecting with the back of the forearm as in the pallosoot hooking action in FMA, keeping my inner gate closed off from thrusting, multiple shots to the eyes, throat, head, knees with whatever weapon I can muster to shock the attacker up, take secondary targets as they come to me, from biting his nose off to slamming a knee into his outer thigh, beating the crap out of the weapon bearing limb, which is a bit slower than the knife itself, offbalancing the attacker, and when control becomes a option then breaks/takedowns/more blows.

I also think training with knife grappling on the ground is good business.

Cheers,