Choy Lay Fut (Tat Mau Wong)

[Kempo]

Hi. I study kempo. I have learned some various kung fu forms from my Tai Chi instructor and am trying to find out some more information on Choy Lay Fut, especially the branch taught by Master Tat Mau Wong. I am looking for info on history, traditions, forms, and anything else. Websites on this or info anyone can write here for me would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks :)

[yutyeesam]

Hi Kempo,
You can visit his website at http://www.tatwong.com

He has a video series on Panther Productions, and he also has a Distance Learning program.

Tat Mau Wong's Sifu is the late Grandmaster Lee Koon Hung, so you would also benefit on finding out about what the Lee Koon Hung Kung-Fu association does. Their site is http://www.leekoonhungkungfu.com

The forms TMW teaches are ones he learned from LKH, but he has made slight modifications for various reasons. But the principles are all constant.

My advice would be to get the book "Choy Lay Fut Kung-Fu: Dynamic Art of Fighting", from Lee Koon HUng's school (Tat Mau Wong is pictured in the book, getting beaten up by his Sifu!). You can get the book at:
http://www.leekoonhungkungfu.com/coupon.html

Another great site to get some in depth insights into Choy Lay Fut is the Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association's page. Check out their Choy Lay Fut stuff at:
http://ngfamilymartialarts.com/choylayfut.htm
and read through their concepts, history, lineage, and Sifu Sam Ng.

Hope this was helpful!

best,
123

[cha kuen]

www.choylayfut.com

[tomcat]

Hello,
Tats 3- section staff video is excellant, good breakdowns and drills !
Although I study Hung-Gar I don't think you can go wrong with Tat

[RAIN]

i'd see a few days ago the videotapes of fey loong sin and muy fah gim from master tat mau wong . i'd hear before that his forms are a little differents . i don't not another version of muy fah gim , but his fey loong sin is different . but still is the same form and keep the escense . i know many peolpe worry about differents versions of a form . but i think is great see the preferences of differents teachers . i know is confusing , but would be great know 2 or 3 differents versions of a same form .

[yutyeesam]

i agree, rain. i think it would be really cool if the Lee Koon Hung organization eventually made available videos of all the original versions of the forms that Tat Mau Wong has on the market.
At the end of Lee Siu Hung's Joy Kune tape, it was really cool to see Lee Koon Hung in action, and specifically, him doing Ping Kune. I'd only seen TMW do Ping Kune, and it was really refreshing to see LKH doing it. I can't wait for the LKH organization to release more LKH footage.

123

[nospam]

Variety is the spice of life.

Variety is what makes gung fu training interesting. I also agree that it is cool to see other variations of the same idea. I much prefer to listen and watch the variations in fighting aspects, it always helps me in understanding my perspectives.

nospam.
:cool:

[taichi4eva]

I'm a Northern Praying Mantis practicioner, so I don't know a lot about Southern styles. I was thinking about buying a video that demonstrates Tat Mau Wong's five animal forms, and was wondering if I can get some feedback. I don't plan to learn the form from the video; I just want to see what it looks like. Is it like Doc Fai Wong's five animal form, where all of the techniques are linked, or are there individual forms, like a separate form for each of the five animals? Also, if I were wanting to learn the form from the video (highly unlikely), would it be easy to follow? How would the form be rated in terms of difficulty?

Thanks.

P.S. I took a look at Doc Fai Wong's book. Just the beginning part, where he bends forward and backward, looked painful. I'm hoping Tat Mau Wong's form doesn't have a lot of acrobatics like that.

[CLFNole]

Doc Fai Wong's Ng Ying (5 Animal) Kuen book is not a CLF form but rather a siu lum form he learned.

Tat Mau Wong's is a CLF form and it is one form not individual forms. That is why it is called a 5 Animal form. If it were individual animal sets they would be called: lung (dragon) ying kuen, fu (tiger) ying kuen, hok (crane) ying kuen, seh (snake) ying kuen or pow (panther) ying kuen.

TMW's form is not too difficult to learn although feel and power would be different coming from another style.

Hope this helps.

[Eddie]

this is what the TMW 5 animal form looks like http://www.floridakungfu.com/fiveanw.wmv

[yutyeesam]

And really, this form is pretty indicative of what most of the early/middle level CLF forms look like in this lineage. The main movements that are "exotic" that makes it unique (IMHO) are the one snake-type movement, and that big dragon type movement (is that called Seung Bai Fat?).
Otherwise the rest of it looks like our other forms, with just a different arrangements of techniques we use over and over again.

CLFNole- the Crane Form is the one form I know that looks radically different than all the other handsets. What others are there that look different (that doesn't have the gwa-kam-chinji-biu-chuin-poon-kam-yum tsop sequence)?

123

[CLFNole]

123:

That sequence is seen in many of our sets and is seen in a lot of other lineages as well albeit somewhat less circular.

Fu Ying Kuen, Baat Kwa Sum Kuen, Bak Mo Kuen, Fut Ga Jeung, Moi Fah Baat Kwa Kuen, Joi Baat Sin Kuen and Fu-Pow Kuen are a bit different than the standards.

All CLF forms have repetative techniques in them.

Peace.

[Falcor]

Yutyeesam,

That's an interesting observation you make. If I may ask then, since CLF has tens to a couple of hundred forms, would it be fair to say that _for a given level_, the multitude of forms can be grouped into, essentially, families of forms - where within a single family, forms are pretty much the same or variations of each other? So in other words, CLF actually has only a small number of functionally different form families, but the large number comes from the variations of the forms and emphasis on particular techniques within a family?

[CLFNole]

No is not that simple. While forms can share common sequences each form has its own purpose and main point. All forms have both unique characteristics and shared characteristics.

The best way to group CLF forms is primary level, secondary level and tertiary level. Footwork changes, direction changes, etc....

Peace.

[Ben Gash]

Falcor, I wrote this on another thread (which you started incidentally).
" Within these forms there are systems within the system. So there are 15 longarm sets, 15 animal boxing sets, 8 Bot Gwa sets, Lohan Qigong sets, 3 drunken sets etc.
Most CLF students will learn between 15 and 30 hand forms. This really isn't different to many other styles. The rest of the 100+ forms figure is made up of 2 person hand forms (half a dozen), weapons and 2 person weapon forms"
However, as CLFnole says, each form does have it's own distinct flavour and works on a different principle

[Drake]

Being an active duty soldier, I have almost no way of being able to train under one person for any length of time, since I've been jumping from obscure places in the USA to Europe, and points elsewhere for some time now. With this limitation, I've purchased a few of Tat Mau Wong's videos. They are pretty useful, and tend to echo what I've been trained on in the past. What I find curious is that, as far as I can tell, he uses a belt system. Has this become the norm in CLF? My last instructor always told me "Belts are for holding your pants up."
I'm not in any way saying Master Wong is a bad instructor. Quite the contrary. I'm just curious as to why he went to such a system, and if it is pretty common these days.
I also purchased a few Doc Fai Wong videos, but wasn't too satisified with them, except the plum blossom broadsword one. Anybody else have comments on his tapes?
Finally... what other videos/DVDs are good for training in CLF?

Thanks for reading my scattered and disjointed post. :cool:

Drake~

[sean_stonehart]

I don't think it's the norm for CLF but the norm for "mainstream" MA schools... "Mc(insert type here)" schools.

My sifu is working a series up, but we're still in the planning phase of things, so nothing now.

If you ever get a duty station at Ft Benning or Ft McPherson in Atlanta, look us up. www.hungsingatl.com

[19thlohan]

I think he made the sash system up for the panther video series. All the early kung fu series they put out claimed to teach all the requirments up to black sash. He learned from Lee Koon Hung and he never used a belt system like that.

I don't watch many instructional videos but lee Koon Hung's brother has put out a couple and if I was going to buy one I would go with his.

[David Jamieson]

Never seen any of the doc fai wong vids.

But tat mau wongs lion dance videos are really good.

quite detailed etc etc.

as for the kungfu forms, again, I haven't seen those. Just his lion dance stuff.

In fact I would recommend Tat mau's Lion Dance vids to learn about lion dance and how to do it and learn it.

As for forms, I have learned a few from videos, but learning that way for me is really boring...just personally. But I understand how you mean about no access otherwise and that is what vids are for really. Be aware that you are going to innately add your own flavour to any forms you learn from video simply because you don't get correction or you get limited reminders on sections in the video and those are subject to your own interpretation.

If at all possible, share and exchange forms with others. That is, if you like the forms. Pretty much every advanced practitioner who is able to exchange forms will know at least one that you are going to like and want to learn. This has been true for me at least.

[Mo Lung]

A lot of schools are introducing belt systems these days for two main reasons.

1. People expect it and, to make a living, you often need to give people a little of what they want.

2. As schools and organisations get bigger, it's easier for people to keep track of what people know this way and to have a more standardised curriculum of teaching.

Kung fu didn't traditionally have a belt system, but things change and evolve over time. As long as the instruction is good and the kung fu is solid, it doesn't really matter if and how a teacher marks his students' progress.

As for learning, if you like CLF, then Chan Family CLF has schools all over Europe and a few in the US now too. ;)

[Ben Gash]

Mo Lung, that's the most reasoned answer to that question I've seen here for quite a while (except for that last line :p Plum Blossom all the way ;) )
Of course, traditionally no martial arts had coloured belts. Kano adopted the system from swimming (:confused: ) when he created Judo, for the latter reason, and as Judo was probably the first mainstream martial art in the West, it's coloured our perception. Having belts doesn't necessarily make a McDojo (despite what people here may say ;) ) , however having expensive gradings with expensive belts and certificates and expensive "ceremonies" every 4 weeks does :mad:

[Drake]

Originally posted by Mo Lung

As for learning, if you like CLF, then Chan Family CLF has schools all over Europe and a few in the US now too. ;)

Have anything in the Wiesbaden/Mainz, Germany area? And for sake of asking... whatcha got in Balad, Iraq? :D

Oh, and the Tat Mau Wong CLF videos are much like the lion dancing ones. He's extremely detailed, and breaks the forms into slow, with step by step detailed instruction, slow w/o instruction, and full speed. He also takes the first part of the video to explain new techniques, done slow and fast, with explanations. He also tosses in drills, which are sections of the form he is teaching.
Annnnnnd... you also get an audio tape, some written text explaining the heritage and various CLF terminology, and a written exam. He does charge for testing at level 4 and 5, though. But I guess he has to make $$ somehow.
I own one from Lee Koon Hung's brother. It's an iron fan form, but for the most part it is just the form, and then the form in slo-mo. He also has a drunken style tape, which looked interesting.


Drake~

[Mo Lung]

I'm not personally aware of any in that area of Germany, but it could be worth a web search. I don't think you'll have much luck with Iraq. I don't think even Wong Doc Fai has got there yet. ( ;) Ben).

[CLFNole]

My sifu, the late Lee Koon Hung has a student that teaches in Germany. His kung fu is quite good. He is his info:

Master Michael Punschke
Fongs Kung Fu (Germany)
www.fongs-kungfu.de

Hope this helps you out.

[Fu-Pow]

In addition to Li Siu Hung and Tat Mau Wong's tapes my Sifu also sells tapes.

His website is www.makskungfu.com.

Look in the products section.

I think my Sifu's form is the best but , of course, I'm a little biased.

His tapes are pretty good. He shows the forms from several different angles and speeds.

Ciao.

[gwa sow]

are his videos from panther videos still available anywhere?????

[WanderingMonk]

are his videos from panther videos still available anywhere?????

http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=17957&cat=331&page=3

[Infrazael]

There didn't seem to be a specific "Panther/Leopard" video.

Is there even a pure Panther form for CLF (or another style)? I know in my LKH branch there is a Fu-Pow (i'm sure my Sihing Fu-Pow named himself after the form), Tiger-Leopard form but I'm still curious to a pure leopard.

Panther Forever!!!

[CHAZ]

I belive when Gwa Sow said Panther video, he was talking about the name of the distributer of Tat Mau Wong's tapes, they are called 'Panther Home Video'.

As for a pure Leopard form's in CLF, I know Master Doc Fai Wong lists one he teaches in his CLF book.

[yutyeesam]

Get them while you can, I don't think these are being reproduced anymore, so they are quite valuable.

As far as I know, we have a a crane form and a tiger form. Don't know about the other Animals. I think Sifu Mak Hin Far's school has Fu-Pow Kune on video, see http://www.makskungfu.com/products/videos/Video.html

Does anyone know if the LKH lineage of Ng Lun Ma differs from Doc Fai Wong's?

-123

[CLFNole]

Pretty much the same but slightly different. I have seen a few different versions all with the same general moves but each slightly different.

[Infrazael]

Get them while you can, I don't think these are being reproduced anymore, so they are quite valuable.

As far as I know, we have a a crane form and a tiger form. Don't know about the other Animals. I think Sifu Mak Hin Far's school has Fu-Pow Kune on video, see http://www.makskungfu.com/products/videos/Video.html

Does anyone know if the LKH lineage of Ng Lun Ma differs from Doc Fai Wong's?

-123

Meh, why would I need the video, I can just learn the form from my Sifu when the time comes!!! :D

Peace

[Go Jun Long]

Futshan Bak Mei has a pure leopard form, Fa Pow (Fancy/spotted Panther). No video though.

[Infrazael]

White Eyebrow right? Interesing.

[Ben Gash]

Funny how leopard seems to be the most rare on it's own when it's usually features linear punching and kicking.

[5Animals1Path]

From what I've seen of my Sifu's Leopard, it's essence lies in the evasiveness and wit of an animal that's not as neccesarily as strong as it's bigger striped brother. 75% of what he's shown me is from a one knee bent or crouched position, involving dodging, moving in on the strike, and literally striking the strike. Ex. Striking the knuckles of a straight punch, striking at the bracheal radialus muscle of the forearm on a hookpunch.

It's also probably one of the least "available" because, as I was told, it's the least developed of the core animal styles, and the most physicall demanding. I'll attest to the second half, extremely cardiovascularly demanding.

[Infrazael]

Yes, leopard requires strong legs in order to do the lunging attacks, and good upper body strength.

I think Choy Lay Fut managed to develop it much more than other styles, we use it more than the other animals.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Our style of Choy Lay Fut has a pure Leopard form in it. My Sifu, Grandmaster Chan Tai-San, said that it was originally a "Leopard Style" (and I actually was introducted to a Sifu that did that actual style) form and it was incorporated into our Choy Lay Fut at the Joyous Cloud Monastery (http://www.nykungfu.com/school/JoyousCloudMonastery.asp). (Often called the "Green Cloud Monastery" by mistake)

The form is very hot, 202 moves and quite a few groundfighting techniques. Has all the common moves you associate with the Leopard, but has some very funky throws that I haven't ever seen anyone else do.

I will eventually put it on DVD and along with the first 10 of our Choy Lay Fut forms and Lama Pai Forms.

the best in your training.

Sifu Michael Parrella
Master Parrella's Kung-Fu Centers
www.nykungfu.com
www.antiqueasianweapons.com

[CHAZ]

I for one would be very interested in purchasing any of your CLF DVD's. I have always been a great admierer of your Late Master and would very much like to see his branch of CLF.

[Infrazael]

Our style of Choy Lay Fut has a pure Leopard form in it. My Sifu, Grandmaster Chan Tai-San, said that it was originally a "Leopard Style" (and I actually was introducted to a Sifu that did that actual style) form and it was incorporated into our Choy Lay Fut at the Joyous Cloud Monastery (http://www.nykungfu.com/school/JoyousCloudMonastery.asp). (Often called the "Green Cloud Monastery" by mistake)

The form is very hot, 202 moves and quite a few groundfighting techniques. Has all the common moves you associate with the Leopard, but has some very funky throws that I haven't ever seen anyone else do.

I will eventually put it on DVD and along with the first 10 of our Choy Lay Fut forms and Lama Pai Forms.

the best in your training.

Sifu Michael Parrella
Master Parrella's Kung-Fu Centers
www.nykungfu.com
www.antiqueasianweapons.com

When the DVDs are available, I'll be sure to buy some (if they are for sale).

[GreenCloudCLF]

Tat Mau Wong's CLF videos are available again through century TAT MAU WONG (http://www.centuryfitness.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10051&storeId=10051&productId=83069&langId=-1&product_parentId=13620&crumb=13501-13753&categoryId=13620&parent_category_rn=13756)

They have been discounted to only 10 bucks a pop...good deal

[GreenCloudCLF]

An old training borther of mine stopped by and dropped off one of Wong Sifu's Panther Videos, because he has since quit KF.

Anyway, it is tape 3 (5 Animal Form and Tuet Jin Hand Form)

Anyone know what Tuet Jin means in English?

I already checked DFW's website (cause he has a lot of forms listed), but it wasn't there. There was something close


Iron Arrow Long Fist Form (Tit Jin Cheong Kuen) 鐡箭長拳


But I wasn't sure if this was the same thing? Any of my fellow CLF'ers know the answer?

[Fu-Pow]

Tid Jin Cheung Kuen and Tuet Jin Kuen mean totally different things.

Tid Jin Cheung Kuen=Iron Arrow Long Fist

Tuet Jin Kuen=Break Hold Fist

I also refer to it as "Escape the Circle" Fist because some of the techniques are designed to get you out of a circle of attackers.

This name similarity had me confused for a long time.

FP

[GreenCloudCLF]

Gracias Fu-Pow

[Eddie]

erm, our school used to call it - "the great escape form" - this came from master LKH circa 1987. I have a home video tape from master LKH which was made during that time, where they zoom into a peace of paper with the names of the forms performed. On that it says its called 'war escape form'. Fu pows breaking holds fist is probably the closest.

[CLFNole]

Breaking holds is a definition that Lily Lau uses for their form that shares the same name. When I asked my wife to translate it she kept saying something about going to war or into a battle. She can be a pain in the arse when trying to get something translated.

[Fu-Pow]

I pretty much did a direct translation from the characters and it came up as something like "break hold" or "break away."

[CLFNole]

Fu-Pow:

One thing I have learned is that for so reason or another translating of the characters is not always enough. Cantonese tend to use a lot of slang and as you probably already know there are a lot of multiple meanings for characters.

I just asked my wife about it becuase she wrote out a lot of the curriculum for sifu years ago. According to her the 2nd character "tsin" means war. It could be like ping kuen where the character for ping means both level and peaceful. Some translate the form as level fist and others peaceful fist.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

When in doubt gotta go straight to the source:

Tyut

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/view.php?query=812B&encoding=text&mode=&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=cantonese,english

[1] [v] take off; peel off; strip; undress; take off [2] [v] abandon; renounce; cast off [3] [v] leave; escape from; get out of [4] [v] omit; omission; miss out [5] [v] slip off [6] if; in case; perhaps


Jin

http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/view.php?query=6230&encoding=text&mode=&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=pinjim&sound=0&fields=cantonese,english

English
[1] war; warfare; fighting; battle [2] [v] contest; fight; contend [3] [v] shudder; shiver; tremble [4] a Chinese family name


So in actuality something like "escape the fight." Which make sense. I think I got "break holds" from some other translation. (On the curriculum I made for my Sifu I wrote "circle out.") Both translations kind of make sense though because sometimes you must "break holds" to "escape the fight." ;-).

FP

[Eddie]

CLFNole, about a year or so back i send you that video tape. Not sure if you ever received it. It has the names of the forms written on a paper and zoomed into it - it has the chinese text as well as the engligh explanaiton. As i said, it translates it as war escape.

[CLFNole]

Eddie:

Never got the tape you spoke of. Sorry would have liked to seen it though.

Fu-Pow:

I think when you look at the set itself it could be loosely translated to "escaping from a war/battle". I guess my wife was right when she kept saying something along the lines of "fighting in a war". The form was obviously designed for multiple attackers which would be seen in battle.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

Eddie:

Never got the tape you spoke of. Sorry would have liked to seen it though.

Fu-Pow:

I think when you look at the set itself it could be loosely translated to "escaping from a war/battle". I guess my wife was right when she kept saying something along the lines of "fighting in a war". The form was obviously designed for multiple attackers which would be seen in battle.

Peace.

I see the form as a means to escape from a circle of attackers. Especially the Che San Sau Chui combo and the quick changes in the direction of attack/defense. Jin can me war, fight or battle so there is some ambiguity. However, I think that if you were in battle and you escaped from multiple attackers you'd still be....well....in the midst of the battle. Anyways, the idea is to escape on that much I think we can agree. :D

FP

[fu jow]

i asked one of my sihings what the tranlation was, a while back, and he told me: "take off your shirt and run!". but i still think he was messing with me.

[CLFNole]

Bottom line here is the form was designed to focus on multiple attackers.

Personally I am not much for english translations, to me it is easier just to use chinese. Plus it sounds cooler ;)

[GreenCloudCLF]

Bottom line here is the form was designed to focus on multiple attackers.

Personally I am not much for english translations, to me it is easier just to use chinese. Plus it sounds cooler ;)

I agree in liking to use the Chinese terminology...but I also like to know the English equivalent...I wouldn't want to teach the "White Devil sucks pen1s" form...ya know...

[Hung25]

Hi, if anyone has Tat Mau Wong Choy Lay Fut Distance Learning VHS series, please reply to my thread. I'll buy the if the price is reasonable enough. Thx!

[CLFLPstudent]

VHS????? Wong Sifu needs to get with the times!!!!



-David

[Hung25]

Well, I don't know if they have DVD format for the Distance Learning titles:). I'm trying to look everywhere but can't find them, even on Ebay.

[Hung25]

This is the link but they don't sell them anymore: http://www.tatwong.com/distance.php

[Pedro]

When in doubt gotta go straight to the source:

Tyut
http://www.chinalanguage.com
[1] [v] take off; peel off; strip; undress; take off [2] [v] abandon; renounce; cast off [3] [v] leave; escape from; get out of [4] [v] omit; omission; miss out [5] [v] slip off [6] if; in case; perhaps

Jin
http://www.chinalanguage.com
[1] war; warfare; fighting; battle [2] [v] contest; fight; contend [3] [v] shudder; shiver; tremble [4] a Chinese family name

So in actuality something like "escape the fight." Which make sense. I think I got "break holds" from some other translation. (On the curriculum I made for my Sifu I wrote "circle out.") Both translations kind of make sense though because sometimes you must "break holds" to "escape the fight." ;-).

FP

Great discussion, thanks to all of you guys, I was actually researching the translation of Tuet Jin Kuen and it was very helpful!

Would the characters for Tuet Jin Kuen be 脫 戰 拳 (tyut3 zin3 kyun4)?


脫 (tyut3) -> https://cantonese.org/search.php?q=%E8%84%AB
戰 (zin3) -> https://cantonese.org/search.php?q=%E6%88%B0
拳 (kyun4) -> https://cantonese.org/search.php?q=%E6%8B%B3

[Pedro]

By the way, I train in the lineage of Tat-Mau Wong (for two years now). I live in Brazil and our sifu is Francisco De Paula, who is a direct disciple of Tat-Mau. In fact, his academy used to be a direct branch of Tat Wong, but now it's independent and called Hung Sing Kung Fu Academy.

I've already read about the main branches of CLF, and I see you commenting on the differences in the forms between one branch or another, but I couldn't identify which branch Tat-Mau Wong's lineage would fit into. Does anyone know?

In my research, I tried to put together our family tree and came up with this:

11060

Any ideas, suggestions or corrections on this?

[hskwarrior]

CHAN YUEN WU S NOT THE GREEN GRASS BRO. YOU MIGHT WANT TO FIX THAT INACURRACY IN THE TREE.

"I've already read about the main branches of CLF, and I see you commenting on the differences in the forms between one branch or another, but I couldn't identify which branch Tat-Mau Wong's lineage would fit into. Does anyone know?
"

YOUR HUNG SING LINEAGE BELONGS TO CHAN KOON PAK, THE SON OF CHAN HEUNG. THE TRUE HUNG SING NAME YOUR SCHOOL SHOULD BE USING SHOULD NOT BE THE SAME A FUT SAN HUNG SING. TWO DIFFERENT HUNG SING'S. THE ENGLISH TRANSLATION FOR YOUR SCHOOL SHOULD BE "STRONG VICTORY" (HUNG SING) WHILE MY HUNG SING MEANS GREAT VICTORY. NOT THE SAME CHINESE CHARACTERS.

LOOKING AT YOUR TREE, YOUR LINEAGE SHOULD FOLLOW CHAN KOON PAK STRAIGHT LINE, AND OFF TO THE SIDE IS JEONG YIM. NO DIRECT LINEAGE.

[Pedro]

CHAN YUEN WU S NOT THE GREEN GRASS BRO. YOU MIGHT WANT TO FIX THAT INACURRACY IN THE TREE.

Hmm... When I was researching the genealogy of Choy Lay Fut, I found a PDF of the CLF lineage on the Plum Blossom International Federation website (https://plumblossom.net/ChoyLiFut/clf_lineages_5-5-12.pdf) that stated that the 3 masters who came before Chan Heung were Choy Fook, Li Yau San and Chan Yuen Woo. Since I knew that Choy Fook gave the Choy part of the CLF name and Li Yau San gave the Lay/Li part, I assumed the third name (Chan Yuen Woo) was the Green Grass Monk, which gave the Fut (Buddha) part of the name. But now that you said that, I looked again at the Wikipedia article on CLF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choy_Li_Fut) and discovered that Chan Yuen Woo was a "fourth master", Chan Heung's uncle!

I now searched for "Green Grass Monk's name" and found a Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeong_Yim) that says the Green Grass Monk's name was Ching Cho Wo Sheung (青草和尚). Is this right?



"I've already read about the main branches of CLF, and I see you commenting on the differences in the forms between one branch or another, but I couldn't identify which branch Tat-Mau Wong's lineage would fit into. Does anyone know?"

YOUR HUNG SING LINEAGE BELONGS TO CHAN KOON PAK, THE SON OF CHAN HEUNG. THE TRUE HUNG SING NAME YOUR SCHOOL SHOULD BE USING SHOULD NOT BE THE SAME A FUT SAN HUNG SING. TWO DIFFERENT HUNG SING'S. THE ENGLISH TRANSLATION FOR YOUR SCHOOL SHOULD BE "STRONG VICTORY" (HUNG SING) WHILE MY HUNG SING MEANS GREAT VICTORY. NOT THE SAME CHINESE CHARACTERS.

LOOKING AT YOUR TREE, YOUR LINEAGE SHOULD FOLLOW CHAN KOON PAK STRAIGHT LINE, AND OFF TO THE SIDE IS JEONG YIM. NO DIRECT LINEAGE.

So, after another round of research: at the time Chan Heung started teaching CLF, the Qing dynasty took the place of the Ming dynasty in China, and there was a secret society called Hung Mun (洪門) that was against the Qing dynasty and wanted the Ming dynasty to return. Chan Heung and his students wanted this too, so they sided with the Hung Mun Secret Society against the Qing dynasty, then started using Hung Sing (洪勝) as their motto, which means "Hung Society Victory", or "victory for the Hung family". But this kind of attitude was illegal and they had to hide it, so they changed the word Hung (洪) to hung (鴻), which means "goose", so Hung Sing (鴻勝) became "Goose Victory", or "Glorious Victory" or "Great Victory" (is this Fut San branch already?). Then Chan Koon-pak changed it to hung (雄), which means "hero", so Hung Sing (雄勝) became "Heroic Victory" or "Strong Victory". Is it right?

I just found a text written by you telling everything:
https://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67804-Choy-Lee-Fut-does-not-own-the-Hung-Sing-name

So, do you think the original name Hung Sing (洪聖 or 洪圣) given by Chan Heung had nothing to do with the Hung Mun secret society against the Qing dynasty?

[hskwarrior]

I assumed the third name (Chan Yuen Woo) was the Green Grass Monk, which gave the Fut (Buddha) part of the name.

Sorry bro. This is incorrect. Chan Yuen Wu was originally said to have taught "HUNG KUEN" to Chan Heung. THAT, has since changed to "Fut Gar" and then changed to "Hung Fut" now. It kind of makes it hard to trust anything coming from the Chan Family lineages of Choy Lee Fut, it changes with the times.


But now that you said that, I looked again at the Wikipedia article on CLF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choy_Li_Fut) and discovered that Chan Yuen Woo was a "fourth master", Chan Heung's uncle!


Chan Heung only learned with Chan Yuen Woo, Lee Yau San, and Choy Fook. He did not learn from any other teachers.


I now searched for "Green Grass Monk's name" and found a Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeong_Yim) that says the Green Grass Monk's name was Ching Cho Wo Sheung (青草和尚). Is this right?

青草 = ching cho (English: Green Grass) 和尚 = Monk. Therefore you get 青草和尚 (Green Grass Monk).

However, if you are part of tat mau wong's choy lee fut, the Green Grass Monk is not your direct ancestor. a great uncle maybe. but he was not chan heung's teacher at all. he was only Cheung Hung Sing's teacher.



Chan Heung and his students wanted this too, so they sided with the Hung Mun Secret Society against the Qing dynasty, then started using Hung Sing (洪勝) as their motto, which means "Hung Society Victory", or "victory for the Hung family". But this kind of attitude was illegal and they had to hide it, so they changed the word Hung (洪) to hung (鴻), which means "goose", so Hung Sing (鴻勝) became "Goose Victory", or "Glorious Victory" or "Great Victory" (is this Fut San branch already?). Then Chan Koon-pak changed it to hung (雄), which means "hero", so Hung Sing (雄勝) became "Heroic Victory" or "Strong Victory". Is it right?

In southern China, about 75% of the men supported the Hung Mun. Some even added the word HUNG to their personal names to show support. So it is possible that Chan Heung's students supported the Hung Mun as well but, "Hung Sing (洪勝)" while yes it was used as slogan by authentic Hung Mun ancestors (not Choy Lee Fut), it was also a name given to Cheung Hung Sing by the Green Grass Monk, who was one of the 5 Hung Mun founders. Yes, the name was illegal to use after the Tai Ping Rebellion.

The "Hung Sing" that belongs to Chan Heung is only THIS ONE: 洪圣 (Hung Sing) which is NOT the same as "Hung Sing (洪勝)" because the definition of each word is not the same. the word SING 圣 means "sage" or Saint. the word 勝 means Victory. therefore 圣 and 勝 does not share the same meaning. two different words.

Hung Sing (洪勝) was only used by Cheung Hung Sing as it was given to him by the Green Grass Monk.


Then Chan Koon-pak changed it to hung (雄), which means "hero", so Hung Sing (雄勝) became "Heroic Victory" or "Strong Victory". Is it right?

Chan Koon Pak may have originally been a student of Cheung Hung Sing, which would explain why his school originally used (鴻勝). I don't believe Koon Pak changed the name. I believe Chan Yiu Chi (koon paks son) changed the name because Fut San Hung Sing(鴻勝) was constantly in the news for its revolutionary activity. SO, someone changed it to Hung Sing (雄勝) meaning Strong Victory.


But this kind of attitude was illegal and they had to hide it, so they changed the word Hung (洪) to hung (鴻), which means "goose", so Hung Sing (鴻勝) became "Goose Victory", or "Glorious Victory" or "Great Victory" (is this Fut San branch already?).

Yes, and NO. The Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon was wanted by the Qing Empire for their activity in the revolution. So they were constantly being closed down and had to escape being captured and killed by the soldiers. ONLY fut san hung sing used Hung Sing(鴻勝). The original Hung (洪) and the new one of Hung (鴻) are the only two words that can be used as a replacement for the other. Both of them mean Great. I personally believe someone tried to convince others that "Wild Goose" was the true meaning. But it is not. Great Victory Hung Sing(鴻勝) was what Cheung Hung Sing used to avoid further detection by the Qing. It was the new name of his school as he re-opened his Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon in 1867.


So, do you think the original name Hung Sing (洪聖 or 洪圣) given by Chan Heung had nothing to do with the Hung Mun secret society against the Qing dynasty?

Yes and no.. He chose to call it "Hung Sing" (洪聖) which translates into "Great Sage" or "Holy" and is also in reference to a southern Chinese Deity Hung Shing (洪聖), also known as Hung Shing Ye (洪聖爺) in addition to Tai Wong (大王). This deity's real name was Hung Hei (洪熙), a righteous government official.

However, Hung Sing meaning Great Sage (洪聖) are also words referring to the Saint of the Hung Mun name "Hung Wu". he was the first Ming Emporer. There is a Hung Mun "Coin" that shares this Hung Sing word on it referring to "Hung Wu". is this why chan heung chose this name? i don't believe so. but I could be wrong.

[CLFNole]

Poon Sing wasn't really Lee Koon Hung's sifu. This is somewhat of a misconception. When Sifu joined Poon Dik's school, he might have already passed away but we have been unable to completely verify this. At the time his school was being run mainly by two of his students. Leung Sai and Chow Bing. Poon Sing, I believe did teach there as well but was more busy handling other business matters. LKH got the bulk of his CLF from Leung Sai and Chow Bing. Not saying he didn't learn from Poon Sing as well but he never called him "sifu" only Sing Gor (Brother Sing). In fact they were Gip Bai Hing Dai (blood brothers). LKH also learned from So Kam Fook (his sisuk and younger classmate of Poon Dik) later on in life (in his 30s) and in the early days also learned some from Leung Siu Kuen (the nephew of Leung Kwai, one of Poon Dik's sifus).

[hskwarrior]

I assumed the third name (Chan Yuen Woo) was the Green Grass Monk, which gave the Fut (Buddha) part of the name.

Chan Yuen Wu never taught Fut Gar. Back when we all started this on the forum back then, Chan Yuen Wu was said to have taught Hung Kuen. Even the current guy from the Lee Iu Lineage, wrote that it was Hung Kuen. Then our brother from New York CLF states it was "Hung Fut" and not Hung Kuen. Not sure if people just don't know, but even Hung Fut puts Chan Yuen Wu in the picture. but Chan Yuen was the normal alias of Choy Dak Jung, the first of the 5 Hung Mun founders.