Huang Kai Vun [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

HuangKaiVun

03-20-2002, 11:53 AM

Thanks for asking, Jon Wayne Taylor.

I am not a Hung Ga stylist, though I've dabbled in that art and many others.

I was studying a powerful Northern Chinese kung fu style called "Seng Men" which is reknowned in China for its ferocity. My sifu found me on the Internet and invited me to see him.

For a half year, I would drive 3 hours every other week to see him at his home to train for HOURS. He had no school, but he took me in and treated me like a son. To me, that was a big deal because my parents have been warring with me ever since I dropped out of Western medical school.

Half a year is a short time only if one doesn't practice hard. I devoted myself to the art despite juggling a Masters Degree program and a violin career, and I made tremendous progress. The art was very small, so I learned the basics very thoroughly.

As I stated in the other post, he then did something that he SHOULDN'T HAVE and sucked me into it. I tried my best to cover for him, but the cover was blown. Now he has renounced me as a student and will not take me back.

At least we still talk from time to time, as we share a common classical violin interest and he's one of my biggest fans. To me, my sifu will always be my sifu and I have great respect and gratitude for all that he showed me.

It is the LAME kung fu stylist who wouldn't find a way to succeed despite every imagineable setback.

My sifu told me after he dropped me that I had learned enough to go open my own school in that style. So in a way, I have his full approval to do so.

However, I steadfastly refused to do so because I felt that I'd be sullying the lineage that way. I learned quite a bit, but not enough to be considered a true "inheritor". Besides, part of his reason for dropping me was because I was so hellbent on opening a school. My sifu felt that HIS sifu in China wouldn't approve of me commercializing the style.

What's interesting is that for months, I had been having strange dreams of doing "Seng Men" with all sorts of different moves that my sifu didn't show me. I think what happened was that my mind was subconsciously stretching beyond the limits of what this style had to offer.

Ironically, my first martial instinct was not "Crap, my sifu dropped me!" It was "I'm FREE!"

So now I've made my OWN style.

It has no name, though one person said I should call it "Huang Style Kung Fu". The Seng Men/Neijia influence is very strong, but it has several features that Seng Men didn't have.

The biggest difference is that where Seng Men tried to keep itself confined to a few extremely effective moves in a standup position, my new style seeks to enable the practitioner to be able to fight from any position using anything in the environment. One of my moves is "Chair", which features two different ways of getting in, out, and behind a chair smoothly.

My style is a multipurpose style not strictly for fighting. For example, a basketball player would benefit from the forward and reverse Bagua-like circle walking. Or a 90-year old lady could do my "Hand" set because the movements all are basic reflexive motions. And of course, a young whippersnapper like me would be hopefully be able to fight in a natural way using this technique.

Right now, I feel no need to go seek out another sifu. My inner voice is dictating exactly where I feel I need to go, and I'm obeying it. The result is that I have 2 sets ("Hands" and "Steps") already completely made and one more ("Objects", which teaches the combative use of cups, books, pens, clothing, etc. . . ) under construction.

Oh yeah.

My sifu is not a guy who people should challenge.

He's quick to fight and quick to strike, having fought several times against multiple opponents. HIS sifu is even tougher, being known in Henan as a well known traditional fighter.

The first time we touched hands, he bulldozed me so badly that I had a bruise on my forearm for weeks. It took me MONTHS before I could even resist him, though I was doing so readily at the end.

My new style was coined in a large part to exploit Seng Men's weaknesses, but my sifu would always give me a really tough time in combat no matter how good I got.

Sharky

03-20-2002, 11:57 AM

Is this a wind up?

red5angel

03-20-2002, 12:22 PM

Sounds like you atleast recovered well, adn are doing what you want. No disrespect to your Sifus skills HKV, in this case it sounds as if the guy knows his stuff, but he just did something he shouldnt have and dragged you into it, iresponsible to say the least, especially from someone who wishes to be called Sifu.
I have been known to rant here and again about all of the chop suey kung fu out there, "instructors", and I use the term loosely, who claim to know things they do not, or teach things they shouldnt.
In this case it sounds like your Sifu had a great oppurtunity to pass on some knowledge and chose to soil it.

Radhnoti

03-20-2002, 12:39 PM

OK...small, possibly silly question here.

Kuang Kai Vun, are you the same fellow that USED to post here with a very similar (I think ending with vin though) name? Or are you brand new to this forum? Not that there's anything wrong with being new, but if you weren't a member previously folks might be mixing you up with someone else.
Thanks.
:)

HuangKaiVun

03-20-2002, 03:08 PM

I am exactly the same guy - even same spelling of name.

I deregistered for a while because of the inane warring on the Southern forum. I got so sick and tired of that flaming that I just up and left. But Administration has cleaned this place up, I'm happy to say.

Then my sifu dumped me, and I had to reconfigure my life.

Now you are seeing the latest incarnation of me.

illusionfist

03-20-2002, 06:34 PM

Huang- Thats pretty harsh man, especially if you were a Yup Sut. I dont see how he'd let a Yup Sut go so easily?

Peace :D

Serpent

03-20-2002, 07:12 PM

I hear ya, Sharky. This has got to be a wind up.

Firstly, let's clarify one point:

You said:

My sifu found me on the Internet and invited me to see him.

Please explain. You're saying that your sifu was looking around for prospective students and found you? On the internet? And asked you to come to him? A three hour drive?

:confused:

Serpent

03-20-2002, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by illusionfist
Huang- Thats pretty harsh man, especially if you were a Yup Sut. I dont see how he'd let a Yup Sut go so easily?

Peace :D

Hey Fist, long time no read!

What's Yup Sut?

Yut Sup would be One Ten in Cantonese, but I'm sure that's not what you mean! :)

nospam

03-20-2002, 07:19 PM

For a half year, I would drive 3 hours every other week to see him at his home to train for HOURS.

My sifu told me after he dropped me that I had learned enough to go open my own school in that style. So in a way, I have his full approval to do so.

That is improbable. But that's just 'cause I said so.

Sorry to hear about your fall-out.

nospam.
:cool:

jon

03-20-2002, 07:21 PM

Im pretty sure in context (ive heard a few different chinese names for this) it means 'closed door student'.
I couldnt give you an exact translation but there are a few other chinese names for the same thing.
Bai See
Yut Mun
Yut Sut

Im pretty sure there all basicaly the same thing, although Bai See is akin to a linage holder as opposed to simply a closed door.

Serpent

03-20-2002, 07:27 PM

Bai see is the ceremony to become a closed door student.

But thanks, I guess that's what Illusionfist meant.

HuangKaiVun

03-20-2002, 08:07 PM

My teacher told me that he had been searching for a worthy disciple for 20+ years and finally ended up with ME.

Once he started teaching me, he stopped looking. At least that's what he said. I don't think he's taken another disciple - he'd have told me by now.

I only had one "classmate": a 10 year old boy who didn't seem that into the training at the time. This was the son of a friend.

I practiced hard enough that my teacher ordered me to "take it easy". So devotion or even skill was not the issue.

One day, I'll invite him to my school. If he wishes, he can even test my hands. I'll treat him with all the respect and honor due a sifu, for I am not the type to hold grudges.

Now I understand perfectly the conversation between Bruce Lee and Yip Man:

Lee: Do you still consider me your student?
Yip: Do you still consider me your teacher?

Serpent

03-20-2002, 08:26 PM

You still didn't really answer the question, Huang. You said he found you on the internet. How? How did he approach you? How did he know you were the one? Did he sense a disturbance in the Force?

Also, what happened that split you two up? What did he drag you into?

Also, how old are you? What sort of experience do you have in what arts?

The first paragraph I really want answers to.
The second paragraph would really help us understand what you're trying to say.
The third paragraph is up to you to answer or not.

HuangKaiVun

03-20-2002, 08:35 PM

Before I reveal any more about myself, maybe I should ask you WHY you want to know these things, Serpent?

One must GIVE in order to RECEIVE.

Serpent

03-20-2002, 08:50 PM

What do you mean, why do I want to know? You brought it up! You started spinning this yarn all about how you're the Chosen One and got discovered on the internet by some ferocious super sifu who doesn't have a school.

It all sounds like a steaming pile of horsesh!t to me, the kind of story teenage martial arts wannabes daydream about.

Now, I'm not suggesting you're a teenage MA wannabe, but at the moment that's how the story sounds.

You started telling the tale. I'm just asking you to detail parts of it that seem to be missing.

HuangKaiVun

03-20-2002, 09:27 PM

Just as I had thought, Serpent.

You have a beef with my answering the question that somebody else posed - and with the question that I posed YOU.

Come see me in Schenectady.

This is NOT a challenge to fight; this is a friendly INVITATION that I extend to you and everybody here at KFO as a fellow martial artist. I'll be opening my school this summer and I welcome you all to come and visit.

Being that I don't know who you are or even what style you do, I don't know from what perspective you come from and thus will neither reject nor accept your disbelief.

My suggestion is come and visit me - THEN tell me if I'm a "teenage MA wannabe" or not. You are free to see and even feel for yourself what I can and cannot do.

In September, I'll probably have my school open to the public. It'll be a small little venture, but it'll be MY school with MY style. Anybody who comes through that door has the right to walk out with my full respect if what they see isn't to their liking.

Serpent

03-20-2002, 09:48 PM

I hope your school isn't too small or you'll never get your ego inside it.

What does my style have to do with anything? And as for coming to Schenectady, you're really not that important to me. Even if I lived in the next town I'm unlikely to make a special journey. Considering that I'm currently in New Zealand and not likely to be in the States again for some time, it's really an academic point.

And avoiding the question by suggesting that people come and see you in September is pretty lame!

It's a simple question.

You said that your ex-sifu found you on the internet and took you in as a closed door student.

I asked how he found you and how he knew you were the one he was after (especially as he had, according to you, been looking for 20 years!)

And the question you posed me was why do I want to know. I don't know how I can be any clearer.

HuangKaiVun

03-20-2002, 10:01 PM

Ah Serpent.

One day you will learn that if you approach somebody with the intent of tearing him down, he'll not give you an opening to do so.

That's the fundamental lesson of martial arts - one you clearly have not learned or have been taught.

A true martial artist could've sniffed your intent to harm from continents away.

jon

03-20-2002, 10:21 PM

Oh yay just what we need another potensial internet challenge thread.:cool:

errr incedently...
"if you approach somebody with the intent of tearing him down, he'll not give you an opening to do so.
That's the fundamental lesson of martial arts "
* Thats a pretty bold statement, one which im sure many would disagree with. For a start i always assumed the fundamental lesson in martial arts was to avoid being killed. Or at least some self development mantra or another.

Um maybe another sifu will see your posts and offer you another style to become inheritor of;)
(just kidding)

Seems a little odd though that you still have good contact with your sifu yet he refuses to teach you anymore. Are you sure there is not something else your not telling us about all of this? You have left a lot of things blank. Im not by ANY means saying you owe it to anyone but its an interesting story and it would be nice to have some more information to go on.

P.S Serpent always smells funny, you get used to it after a while. Really he is not such a bad bloke, just has a mind that needs to be regulated i fear :p

Serpent

03-20-2002, 10:24 PM

Hmmm. How did you sniff that out? What clever techniques did you employ to read between the lines?

Was it when I said:

You said he found you on the internet. How? How did he approach you? How did he know you were the one? Did he sense a disturbance in the Force?

Or was it:

It all sounds like a steaming pile of horsesh!t to me, the kind of story teenage martial arts wannabes daydream about.

Or perhaps it was when I said:

I hope your school isn't too small or you'll never get your ego inside it.

Your insight is astounding.

Way to avoid the question Huang.

Your profile says you're 28 years old and you've studied your whole life. Fair enough. Whatever you reckon.

However, you then tell this story about how some amazing sifu found you on the internet, taught you a very powerful style as a closed door student, then p!ssed you off somehow so you left. You've since decided that his style was incomplete and you intend to create your own style based on the style he taught you in a matter of months because it's apparently a small style.

Now, that's all fair enough, even if it does sound like a fairy tale.

However, you refuse to answer these simple questions:

How did he find you?

How did he know you were the one?

What happened to make you lose faith/favour with him?

They're very simple questions that it's only fair you answer. After all, you told half a story and expect us all to accept it on faith. Now you're only making it seem worse by your feeble attempts to avoid the questions by getting all superior with me.

Your arrogance is shadowed only by your ego. This could have been a very friendly exchange. I asked some very straightforward questions. I originally questioned your story's validity, as did Sharky and nospam. But I wasn't rude.

You still have a chance here. Just answer the questions. And before your ego gets the better of you, I'm only continuing this rather amusing debate as I'm bored, waiting for a plane.

Your turn.

(Here's a tip. Answer the questions!)

jon

03-20-2002, 10:26 PM

Mental note...
Never argue with Serpent :D

Serpent

03-20-2002, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by jon
P.S Serpent always smells funny, you get used to it after a while. Really he is not such a bad bloke, just has a mind that needs to be regulated i fear :p

Oi! Enough of your cheek! ;)

D@mn thought police, always trying to regulate my mind!

Serpent

03-20-2002, 10:29 PM

No, no, please argue. I dare ya!

;)

HuangKaiVun

03-20-2002, 10:48 PM

jon, I'll answer you because you display no intent to harm and because I know you to be a TRUE martial artist.

You fully understand that I don't have to reveal a thing - let alone somebody like Serpent who's flaming me for his own fun :p!

That "opening" statement? You as a kung fu man know that the best way to avoid being killed is not be there to begin with!

The way Serpent approached me in the beginning was different from the way the others approached me. His projection was such that I knew that whatever I said he'd use against me again and again. What am I to expect from a guy who accuses me of talking "steaming pile of horsesh!t?" - or one who repeatedly calls my age (28) into question?

Hence I asked him to reveal of himself in order to let him feel what it was like for him to be asking me such questions. As I expected, he became angry. Maybe that's why he doesn't have any info in his bio - because that's the type of stuff he uses against others and somebody like ME might call him on it.

"Straightforward questions"of his sort receive my straightforward answers of SILENCE.

Serpent would probably be an outstanding martial artist if he actually TRAINED.

My contact with my sifu is pretty much unilateral, with me paying my respects regularly.

He does respond politely, and he is a fan of my violin playing as well. My sifu understands that I am very grateful to him for all he's done for me. So I guess he tolerates me the way my parents do nowadays - BARELY.

Admittedly, this is all a bit odd. I guess it's the Chinese thing within me - always respect the parents no matter how much they dislike you.

You as a kung fu man know that there is an unspoken line over which the practitioner does not cross, jon. That's why my story isn't getting any fleshier.

jon

03-20-2002, 11:08 PM

HuangKaiVun
Thanks for the clarification and extra information, i feel sad for your said predicament but at the same time i believe all things happen for a reason and maybe as you say its your path to follow your own art.
All the best and good luck with your training
Jon

Serpent

03-20-2002, 11:11 PM

Oh, Huang, you're priceless!

Firstly, don't assume you know my emotions. I'm not at all angry, I'm actually rather amused.

Secondly, there's nothing in my profile because I consider it private. You, on the other hand, started a story on a public forum, then didn't finish it.

Thirdly, I haven't repeatedly called your age into question. I asked you what your age was as I thought it might be relevant, then found your age on your profile, so I meantioned it in order to let you know that it wasn't an outstanding question any more.

Then you said:

"Straightforward questions"of his sort receive my straightforward answers of SILENCE

You just typed out several paragraphs of SILENCE then did you? It's hardly silence just because it's addressed to Jon! :rolleyes:

The you make the assumption that I don't train! Where do you get these ideas!? You're really beginning to embarrass yourself here.

Anyway, I can't wait any longer, I have to get to the best bit of your last post!

My sifu understands that I am very grateful to him for all he's done for me. So I guess he tolerates me the way my parents do nowadays - BARELY.

Admittedly, this is all a bit odd. I guess it's the Chinese thing within me - always respect the parents no matter how much they dislike you.

:D Even your parents don't like you, Huang!? I really can't say I'm surprised. :D

I suspect that your story isn't getting any "fleshier" as you haven't got the imagination to let it.

Unfortunately I can't continue this highly entertaining debate any more today as I have a plane to catch. It's a busy time for me right now, I'm all over the shop, but I'll certainly try to check in again as soon as possible and see what you've come up with.

In the meantime, Huang, I dub thee TROLL!

;)

HuangKaiVun

03-21-2002, 06:31 AM

rogue

03-21-2002, 10:01 AM

HKV,
I'll be astral projecting my way to upstate around Sept/Oct and I'd like to look you up. Should I bring my own peyote or will you be supplying it?

Brad

03-21-2002, 10:40 AM

I have a question...
where is Schenectady, NY ? :D

Ralek..

03-21-2002, 10:45 AM

"I'll be astral projecting my way to upstate around Sept/Oct and I'd like to look you up. Should I bring my own peyote or will you be supplying it?"

LOL!!

I want to live in a fantasy world where beautiful women look me up on the internet and track me down down so they can take me as there "disciple". And of course, I want the magical banks to look me up on the internet and choose me as the sole inheritor of all their money.

PS. Huang, are you still trying to get a date with Wushu Chik??

ewallace

03-21-2002, 11:05 AM

I would like to know how your sifu knew you were the one Huang.

TIA

Mutant

03-21-2002, 11:07 AM

Very well Huang!

Radhnoti

03-21-2002, 12:58 PM

Man, the vultures do circle when they see one of their own making ready... ;)
HKV didn't start this thread, he was asked a question. Maybe he has a slightly romanticized perspective about his martial arts career. He certainly wouldn't be the only one...check Gene Ching's "revelation" story. He basically climbed up high at a concert and told a guy who was tripping up there that he was scared and they should come down, and he took some deep revelation away from it. I'm not belittling that, it was HIS time, HIS moment to understand something. The fact that someone else might not have felt the moment quite so DRAMATICALLY or fully as he did doesn't hurt Gene's credibililty in my eyes.
Lay off HKV, he doesn't have to tell anyone anything. Especially if someone's just trying to get him to trip on his own words.
:rolleyes:
Just my two cents.

HuangKaiVun

03-21-2002, 02:11 PM

He had been studying my activities for a while, ewallace. At least that's what he told me when I finally met up with him.

The other thing he was looking for was physical build. He and I are built pretty similar.

Thanks for the maturity post, Radhnoti. You understand.

I'm trying to get a date with YOU GUYS, Ralek.. and rogue.

As I said, I'll invite you all to my school once it's open.

Astral projection or otherwise, I'll touch hands with anyone. I'll learn from anybody.

ewallace

03-21-2002, 02:12 PM

cool. Thanks.

Ralek..

03-21-2002, 02:23 PM

HKV,
Why is it whenever anybody on these boards posts something that in the most remote way can be interpreted as an "insult", you flip out and challenge them to a duel to the death? Do you have an ounce of humor with all that martial skill you claim to have?
I don't care who you are. If it's not obvious already, I'm merely trying to push your buttons.
Chill out dude. People just want you to explain some of your movie-like stories.

Ford Prefect

03-21-2002, 02:26 PM

LOL @ Rogue!

rogue

03-21-2002, 03:22 PM

"He had been studying my activities for a while, ewallace. At least that's what he told me when I finally met up with him."

and

"The other thing he was looking for was physical build. He and I are built pretty similar."

HKV, was this guy stalking you? :D (That's a joke HKV)

Considering that you've set yourself up on a pedastel I would like to hear the answers to Serpents questions. Don't need to give your address or anything just answer to your own claims.

Thanks R & FP.

Serpent

03-21-2002, 06:06 PM

Haven't got long, but just popped in to see how things were going. I see they're still going great. Huang, your stories getting better and better! He'd "been watching your activities" and was interested in your build!?

Please, tell me more. This style is best suited to 5'4" people is it? You seem somewhat preoccupied with your build, seeing as you even mention it in your profile. Something of a complex there?

Gotta run. I'll check in again when I can.

:D

HuangKaiVun

03-21-2002, 06:51 PM

You guys are so juvenile.

I ask you to come meet up with me for beer and touching hands, and you flip out. Haven't you guys ever SOCIALIZED before?

Hey, I'm just telling the story as it happened to me. If you can't handle that rogue and serpent, too bad. Come and tell it TO MY FACE if you wish.

Dispute it all you want, but the sky is blue and I trained the fu.

Serpent

03-21-2002, 07:27 PM

Well, we really don't have much to dispute do we! You're not telling us the whole story.

The sky is blue due to the gases in the stratosphere, and the effect they have on sunlight. Not because you said so. Geddit?

I might venture a hypothesis here if I may.

Young Huang wants to start his own school. He wants to create a style of his own, one that even includes special ways of getting out of a chair!

So, what does a new style need? It needs some kind of credible lineage. Enter Huang to KFO and his tale of the mystical sifu that sought him out via the internet and chose him, after twenty years of looking, to be the chosen disciple. The system he taught was very small and as Huang trained so very hard he was able to learn it all in just a few months of intensive training. He learned it so well, in fact, that he could even spot its myriad flaws.

So then, rather fortunately for Huang, this ferocious sifu did "something bad" and dragged Huang into it, causing Huang to sever ties.

That gave Huang the opportunity to go away and combine this ferocious style (best suited to those that are somewhat vertically challenged) with his own special chair exiting techniques and he creates Huang Style Kung Fu. Now he has a clever and modern style of kung fu to release to the public (assuming they're short) and he even has a mythical, enchanting history to base it on.

And what better way to give some credence to that history than to propogate the story over the internet a year or so before the school opens, establishing his 'validity'?

Well, I'm just entertaining myself here. I'm going through a time of hectic activity with large periods of boredom in between so I can indulge myself. But what do you think? Care to comment Tiny Master Huang?

And I don't want to come to New York to fight you, d!ckhead. Why would I travel to the other side of the planet for your fantasies? I just want you to tell the whole truth. Shouldn't be too hard should it?

How did this sifu find you?

What "activities" brought you to his attention?

What has build got to do with it?

What "bad thing" did he do?

Fill in the holes in your story, Huang. After all, if you start spinning this yarn to prospective students then any of them with half a brain or more will ask the same things I'm sure.

illusionfist

03-21-2002, 09:13 PM

I dont mean to add fuel to the fire, but if you were a yup sut under this guy, something really bad must have happened to let you go like that. This is of course assuming that he is acting in a traditional manner and following prescribed protocols.

Peace :D

Serpent

03-21-2002, 09:22 PM

This is of course assuming that there's a single grain of truth in the whole yarn.

Peace :D

;)

fightfan

03-21-2002, 10:58 PM

LOL :D
This is better than Judge Judy.
I would hate to be Huang right about now!

Sharky

03-21-2002, 11:02 PM

roffle.

poor huangy wangy.

*lawl*

HuangKaiVun

03-22-2002, 05:53 AM

illusionfist, something bad DID happen. And it didn't even involve ME directly.

Suffice it to say that it's not something I want to get into. I was asked a question, I answered it as much as I feel I need to. Those who witnessed the events here in Schenectady will vouch for me.

In any case, my door (at least once I CREATE one in September or so) is always open to anybody here. Internet is such a poor way for kung fu people to touch hands with each other. ACTION, not words.

No more for me for now. Continue talking amongst yourselves.

Ralek..

03-22-2002, 07:20 AM

It appears Huang has run out of ideas for his ever-evolving fairy tale. He will now retreat to his "kwoon" to develop the next chapter. Please hurry, I want to hear about stuff like - your "sifu" taught you advanced qi gong and you now have the ability to knock large groups of people down without touching them...oh wait, that's rich mooney nevermind. :-)

BTW - You posted that you've invited people to come down for "beers" and touching hands. I remember a post from you a while back professing the evils of alcohol and how you never touch it in any form. I wish I could dig that one up....

Sharky

03-22-2002, 08:58 AM

To stick up for huang, he has been around for a while and seems very knowledgeable [sp?]. Regardless of this rather dodgy story i still hold him in high esteem.

Thank you and good night.

Leonidas

03-22-2002, 09:31 AM

I always thought Huang was a pretty respectable guy. Why are people trying to bite his head off now. I guess its guilty till proven innocent here but i dont think arguing with each other over the net is gonna settle anything. No matter how many questions he answers, someone is not gonna be sastified. He already suggested the only way to settle this dispute. Arguments always end up going down that route, when someone makes claims other people call into question.......ex: Ralek. I atleast respect him for not being afraid to cross hands, not exactly the sign of a fraud, and even if he's lying or not does it really matter. Sure not affecting my life

Anyway screw all this mindless bickering, i wanna know more about Seng Men, i think i might of heard it before but im not sure. I know zero Chinese. Sounds fu(king cool. What is it comparable to, Wing Chun, LongFist, Xingyi......what?

KC Elbows

03-22-2002, 09:46 AM

Huang has also always struck me as a serious martial artist. Not verifiable over the internet, but still, that's the hunch I get.

Also, the chair thing is not as silly as it sounds, nor would it be the first art to utilize defenses from seated positions.

Anyway, good luck to you, Huang, and don't forget to be a student at the same time you are a teacher. Don't stop learning now, just because one teacher is no longer to your liking.

rogue

03-22-2002, 10:40 AM

Like you said HKV the net is not a place to judge skills, except for maybe grammer and wasting time. ;)

Onward and upward, what is Seng Men like? How is it basic and what are it's basics? Is it derivative of another style, an offshoot or it's own system?

HuangKaiVun

03-22-2002, 11:18 AM

No more "arguing about reality with disbelievers," I should've stated.

But technical questions asked with a true spirit of inquisition- that's a different story.

Seng Men is a powerful Neijia art that is a very old family style.

On the surface, it looks the most like Hung Ga but with completely different footwork and power generation. A Seng Men practitioner ought to be able to do his set on top of plum flower poles.

This is a very mobile style that uses the back leg and the entire body to produce its jing. Traditional XingYiQuan has a similar kind of jing. Seng Men also has a circle walking component like Bagua or Tzuranmen. Both the circle and linear stuff are combined in combat.

The Seng Men style practitioner will retreat, but he will not recoil. The style tends to keep a straight head and its side to the opponent.

My own style retains much of that straightaway flavor, but I have my own forms and my own arrangement.

I am a guy that functions best by isolating body parts to work on. For example, my own "Hands" set looks a lot like Wing Chun's Siu Lum Tao but with different moves. That's because I won't always have the use of my legs in a fight.

Leonidas

03-22-2002, 01:12 PM

Sounds like a good idea. Making forms that concentrate on one section of the body. I know of a couple arts that do this. Striking sets using the hands, forearms, and elbows, and kicking sets using the feet, shins and knees etc. Is that how your doing it? Are you going to have a set combining the forms? Maybe a flow drill or 2 and are you gonna have traditonal weapon sets. Or is it gonna be more modern weaponry, maybe using an ink pen or umbrella, perhaps a walking cane or tactical knife. Tell me if im asking too much, i know some people like to have alot of secrecy. oh yea, good luck on your school.

Sharky

03-22-2002, 01:18 PM

Hi.

Do you do a lot of sparring, full/semi contact? NHB? Any grappling? Who do you fight/spar with?

Cheers

Mutant

03-22-2002, 01:47 PM

First off, I'm not doubting your kung fu skills and knowlege...based on your comments and contributions in past forum discussions, you seem to have experience and bring a lot to the table.

But I was wondering about the timeframe that you spend learning the Seng Men system. You did mention that don't feel you have enough of it to inherit the system and that your learning was interupted and incomplete.

HKV said: "For a half year, I would drive 3 hours every other week to see him at his home to train for HOURS. "

Every other week for 1/2 a year is only approx. 13 lessons...do you feel that this was enough session time to pick up all the sublties & understanding of the system? Enough to restructure and create your own forms yet?

I know that if you had lots of prior experience, you may be able to pick things up much quicker than an average student. But that is very little training time in that style. How many forms does Seng Men have? Are they long forms? Just curious, because Hung Ga, which you compare it to, has so many long forms, that it takes people years of regular practice, just to learn the forms.

Maybe once you open your school, you could convince your former sifu to teach some seminars there, and you could continue to learn from him in an informal fashion?

Good luck with your school, I hope it works out for you.

Mutant

03-22-2002, 01:49 PM

First off, I'm not doubting your kung fu skills and knowlege...based on your comments and contributions in past forum discussions, you seem to have experience and bring a lot to the table.

But I was wondering about the timeframe that you spend learning the Seng Men system. You did mention that don't feel you have enough of it to inherit the system and that your learning was interupted and incomplete.

HKV said: "For a half year, I would drive 3 hours every other week to see him at his home to train for HOURS. "

Every other week for 1/2 a year is only approx. 13 lessons...do you feel that this was enough session time to pick up all the sublties & understanding of the system? Enough to restructure and create your own forms yet? What other style(s) of kung fu are you integrating into your own style as a foundation?

I know that if you had lots of prior experience, you may be able to pick things up much quicker than an average student. But that is very little training time in that style. How many forms does Seng Men have? Are they long forms? Just curious, because Hung Ga, which you compare it to, has so many long forms, that it takes people years of regular practice, just to learn the forms.

Maybe once you open your school, you could convince your former sifu to teach some seminars there, and you could continue to learn from him in an informal fashion?

Good luck with your school, I hope it works out for you.

HuangKaiVun

03-22-2002, 04:25 PM

only one set, with about 36 moves.

My sifu told me that many old styles were like this. Having a small number of effective moves was more important than having many moves.

I will ask my sifu one day to teach seminars if he wishes. Of course, I'll be the first one on hand to sign up :D!

What I didn't tell you, Sharky, is that I had been training and sparring with people on and off for the last 10 years. That's why I do things like smack against walls - because walls are harder than humans are. I've seen (and been thrashed) by all sizes, from little 6 years olds to 290 pounders.

Lately I haven't sparred because I had only been going against my sifu. But once I get myself ready and get the kinks out of my working situation straightened out, I've got a bunch of friends to work against. And when I open my school, I'll have a sparring class in which everybody can go against me.

I'll probably be trying the NHB type format on my own, though I am aware that I'll probably get badly beaten up in that arena because of no mass. Winning or losing isn't important to me - testing my style and probing my weaknesses is. Better for me to lose and learn than win but not improve.

Fighting isn't the only thing about kung fu, of course. Most of my prospective students are more interested in having an alternate form of exercise that doesn't take a lot of time and can build some character.

Leonidas, my Seng Men style is swathed in secrecy (forgive me!) but my new style is NOT.

I am in the process of creating an "Objects" set was going to have things like pens, brooms, books, clothes, coins (throwing - directly influenced by Seng Men's power generation), furniture, walls, etc . . . I leave all of my sets open ended so that I or my future students can add to them.

My thing is that one need not ever be unarmed with all the stuff we have around us. I'd be a fool to NOT use everything at my disposal given my size disadvantages.

As far as a linking set that unifies my legs and torso, I'll probably weave it into my "Objects" set. I'll definitely ask my students to make their own set for themselves consisting of their favorite moves as a "certification" or something.

I've also got some of my own personalized drills. For example, I routinely battle students with one of those TKD kicking clubs and a kicking bag. I use it like a sword and shield and let students go all out. Then I'll grab another person and we'll doubleteam students, who are allowed to fight back with full force.

My approach won't be necessarily to teach students "what I know". It'll be to give them some idea of the basics (whatever they may be) and help them find their own preferences via aggressive teaching challenges.

I want there to be as many different manifestations of my style as there are practitioners of it.

Mutant

03-22-2002, 04:53 PM

Sounds like a solid curriculum and like youre on a good path.

I've heard that too, that many old styles had just one short form, or broken down loose techniques, and that it all got junked up later with an over emphasis on long forms for demonstration purposes.

Thanks for answering my nosey question, your anwer makes a lot of sense to me and reinforces that you were probably learning some good and focused techniques and system....And again, best of luck. :D

DelicateSound

03-22-2002, 05:34 PM

Jesus F-cking Christ!

What trap-door of unholy sh!t did I fall into this time?!.......

......... man, it's dark in this cess-pit............ [Flicks light switch].....

......... aw, man, the sight is worse than the stench.......

Seriously, on HKV's defence, he has always struck me as a good MA. Anyway enough of being nice, here are some of his blunders I've chosen to highlight so everyone can laugh:

something bad DID happen

Besides you posting this here? Or apart from you being called to be the Hero of Time [TM] Anyone else here think he was suddenly asked to perform the secret form of "White Gibbon cups plums"?

Those who witnessed the terrible events here in Schenectady will vouch for me.

Why would anyone go to Schenendhaudnakyr..... whatever.

Continue talking amongst yourselves

The word is "laughing", and we've been doing it for a while.

he then did something that he SHOULDN'T HAVE

It took me MONTHS before I could even resist him

Don't all harassment victims say that?

So now I've made my OWN style.

Do I need to comment?

My sifu is not a guy who people should challenge

My Sifu's harder than your Sifu :rolleyes:

I'm kidding HKV - I wish you luck. But really mate - if you're going to tell a story, tell all of it, or the vultures will just peck at your exposed flesh. :)

TenTigers

03-22-2002, 11:03 PM

mutant, as far as time frame goes, Huang can accomplish alot training with his sifu like that, I did just that with my Sifu. I would travel 3 hrs to his home and train for a few days, then go home. every other week, or once a month. I was given alot of stuff, and would go home and absorb it. My sifu was my former sifu's sifu. He told me that I learned more in one year than my former sifu learned in ten. But I was commited, and he wasn't. So I can definately say with some (although a little) authority, that it is indeed possible to absorb quite a bit of knowledge this way. Huang, keep up the good work. Self training opens up alot of doors. Many great masters have taken their knowledge and gone up to the mountain and a year later emerged enlightened. Mas Oyama, and Moriehei Uyeshiba come to mind.

Sharky

03-22-2002, 11:11 PM

Hi. Thanks for answering my question.

But can i give you a little advise? You don't have to take it; please please PLEASE stay away from saying "i'm creating my own style" because... it just sounds bad. It just makes me cringe. I think you should just say you are a product of your environment and you fight the way you see fit, and they way that suits you. Don't label it, cos that's when people start to s******.

I have a good point here, and i know it, but seeing as it's 6:10 am and i ain't slept and i gotta be up in 2hrs i don't think i have expressed it all too well.

HuangKaiVun

03-22-2002, 11:36 PM

That's something I cannot do, Sharky.

People ask me all the time what style I study and who I learned it from. I tell them straight up, for that is the nature of my personality and art.

If people don't want to study with me just because I made my own art, that's something that I'll live with. I wouldn't be the right teacher for such students.

The simple fact is that I made this style by myself for myself. It is not even an altered Seng Men - the philosophy and power generation are totally different from that style.

"Sounding bad" means nothing to me, a guy who has spent his life being attacked for being "different".

illusionfist

03-23-2002, 03:15 AM

Lin kuen baht lin gung, dou lo yat cheung hung

Changing principles without proper knowledge= useless gung fu

Not an accusation, just a warning.

Ease on :D

fightfan

03-23-2002, 03:19 AM

Matthew Shepard was "different" and look at the treatment he recieved. This world just isnt fair! :(
Wait a minuit... you arent... nah you couldnt be...... or could you? :eek:

Serpent

03-24-2002, 05:01 PM

You people crack me up. Speshly you, Huang.

Still, you're obviously not going to expound any further on your story, or deny my "hypothesis" for that matter!

Good luck, Huang. May you get everything you deserve.

Remember Mo Duk.

joedoe

03-24-2002, 05:26 PM

I remember Mo Duk. Poor guy, he never really had a chance ... :D

Huang: I have always been curious - as a professional violinist, do you find it hard to take care of your hands while still training hard? I would imagine that would be a serious juggling act.

prana

03-24-2002, 06:20 PM

HKV and Serpent

First off, I have no biassed opinions of both of you to begin with.

HKV, how does one master a technique within half a year, even with a set consist of 36 moves ? I ask because grandmaster used to always say, the first set is the only set you need, and it really only has the same number of moves. And how did you manage to "create" your own style when the lineage has probably been perfected for hundreds of years ? My reason for asking question is that the more you train in our arts, the more you find out how lacking you truly are. And if I am not wrong, it is the same with Tai-kek and many other arts.

Serpent, from your post, I feel you have much experience, and may even KNOW HKV's style secretly. But I am not sure, just guessing. I can understand that you are skeptical and need clearance, and hence your questions. I too am curious, but for the sake of all, Huang, I hope you wont make him de-register again.

Peace, I hope I havent messed up you guys even more.

HuangKaiVun

03-24-2002, 07:45 PM

I am a fully trained Juilliard trained classical violinist who's been playing for the last 22 years.

After all this time, I've discovered what works best for me. I do not need a lot of practice anymore to maintain my technique.

I'm not playing easy stuff either. I played all 24 Paganini Caprices one after another in a single concert last May.

prana, you are absolutely wrong about Serpent knowing ANYTHING about me (according to him, I'm "a di(khead". )

I don't know him from Adam, as he is a total hypocrite who hasn't given any information about himself but demands it of me. This guy gives no teacher, no background, no RESPECT - and you think this sucker knows MY style????

Centuries of tradition in and of themselves do not make perfection. If your style has "probably been perfected for hundreds of years" without hope for innovation, where do you leave yourself room to GROW?

My old style didn't have a groundfighting component, according to my sifu. Yet I could be attacked in my bed while I'm lying down.

Tell me, prana, why SHOULDN'T I work on groundfighting? And what do you advise me to do when I get attacked when I'm lying down?

As far my skill level goes , that's for you and Serpent to decide AFTER you meet me face to face and actually SEE and FEEL what I'm doing.

joedoe

03-24-2002, 07:49 PM

OK, but do you ever find that your MA training and your violin playing are at odds because of the risk of injury to your hands during MA training? I am not asking this to make a point or anything, I am just curious as I used to play violin (very badly) :).

jon

03-24-2002, 07:56 PM

I can understand why your taking this personaly but surely you can see how this may look odd to others?
I dont question you to harshly becouse im not about to accuse a fellow martial artist of being a lier. I prefer to give people the benifit of the doubt.
Serpents questions are relevent due to the nature of this discussion. However that does not mean you HAVE to answer his questions but nor should you be angry when if by you not answering people draw there own conclusions based on what they have to go by. If you wish to ensure your own credablity though it worth your own while to try and get to some of the issues raised.

I think the main thing most of us are a little weirded out over is the idea of you creating your own system and teaching it as such. There is NOTHING wrong with expanding on your own knowledge or even teaching things that were not taught within your system of choice at the time(ie groundfighting) however i think most of us are of the opinion that the original style should be given the credit it deserves. By your own admission your no longer a student of your teacher and surely by this same admission you can see why some of us would question your ability to teach your own system.

You offer many challenges and in some ways i admire that but in others it can come accross as shallow. Sometimes all thats needed is a factual clarification not a physical one.

You have shown respect towards me and as such i offer you fully the same courtasy and this post is not to critice simply to point out where some of us may be coming from and why this sounds strange :)
All the best and happy training
Jon

HuangKaiVun

03-24-2002, 07:56 PM

No, I don't worry at all about it.

I've played sports all my life, and I've never injured my hands other than jamming them from time to time. He who trains hands daily learns how to keep them out of harm's way.

In training, I'm not a knuckle pushup type of guy or anything like that. And in sparring, I'm never using my hands to strike people full force anyway. In a real fight, I'd willingly sacrifice my hands to save the rest of my body.

I also have hyperextensible joints, which is why I can play Paganini easily despite having small hands. This has partly prevented me from suffering bad injuries to my fingers.

Serpent

03-24-2002, 07:59 PM

Prana. I do have a fair amount of experience, but I still have far, far to go! I don't know this style that Huang's talking about. I just know his style! ;)

Huang. The reason there is nothing in my profile is because I value anonymity. I've said as much before.

You, on the other hand, were quite happy to spin your yarns for all to read on a public message board, then clammed up and started rhetoric when you were called on them.

And as for this:

As far my skill level goes , that's for you and Serpent to decide AFTER you meet me face to face and actually SEE and FEEL what I'm doing.

When are you going to realise that you can't avoid answering a question by telling people to come and challenge you!? I, for example, am on the other side of the planet at the moment. Why would I want to come and fight you? I'd beat you black and blue and still not know the rest of your fairy tale, so what's the point?

You really need to get your head out of your arse and gain a little humility. And a few social skills wouldn't go amiss.

Still, you're obviously still not going to answer the questions, so once again: Good luck and may you get everything you deserve.

prana

03-24-2002, 08:40 PM

Huang,

I do sincerely apologise as it must feel as if I am picking on you too. Far from the truth, but I can understand (Thanks Jon for putting it so clearly) where Serpent is coming from. And with the apparent comparison betwene your skills and Serpents, it is nto with intention. The true meaning of my statement is that Serpent seems to have trained enough to understand a core principle in Martial Arts training, and that is, a gate opens up to an abyss where ego (if it was brought about my martial arts) is crushed.

Now I am not saying you are egoistic, but as Jon pointed out, an answer would justify your claims of mastering an art.

Your arguments of ground fighting are valid and I find no faults in this.

BTW, I can almost guarantee that if I come over to your kwoon, that you will hand my a$$ over to me on a plate with one arm tied behind your back, but does that answer the question that begs to be answered ?

Huang, I mean no disrespect to your decisions, I am merely curious :) I hope you will see aside in peace

HuangKaiVun

03-24-2002, 09:01 PM

You're NOT picking on me, prana!

You're asking GOOD QUESTIONS that deserve GOOD ANSWERS.

I don't remember having made claims of having "mastered my art" - and thus I will make no arguments for or against that statement.

What I tried to do was place your "mastery" question into an answerable context. That which you might consider "mastery" I might not, and vice versa. One can have an opinion, but it is completely dependent on the invidual making it and is borne out only after SEEING (and especially FEELING) what is in front of him.

As far as how I "managed to create" my own style, I can only state that I am trying to get rid of my weaknesses.

Whatever way it takes to get rid of those weaknesses, I am either going to learn/steal it from somebody or invent my own ways of getting around them.

I have no concern with defeating opponents, who could beat me on any given day in whatever circumstance. But what I don't want is to be caught UNPREPARED - and I'm not just talking about combat.

There also the issue of my inner voices SCREAMING at me to do certain things in kung fu. I won't lie - often, what I was being taught for the past 10 years ran contrary to what those voices were screaming. Sometimes it was good, sometimes it was bad. The best teachers I had honored those voices, and now my gut instinct is asking me to go my own way.

When I teach my students, I'll be very aware that their inner voices are going to be totally different from mine. Thus I'll encourage them to disagree with me and find their own solutions in whatever way they can.

Basically, I don't want any of my future students to have to go through the same rejection I went through just because I didn't see things exactly as my sifu did. I want them to accept themselves unconditionally as martial artists regardless of where they come from or go to.

Serpent

03-24-2002, 09:05 PM

:rolleyes:

fightfan

03-25-2002, 04:27 AM

Huang,
youve got a great attitude man. Im sure youll acomplish what you set out to do. Your style should be an inspiration to other styles IMO. Good luck!
BTW- I was just jarshin ya earlier. Please dont take offense!

scotty1

03-25-2002, 06:03 AM

I think the reason that Huang is coming in for some **** is because he has effectively said that his ex-Sifu was watching his "activities" on the Net and then swooped in invited him to be his student.

I know all the answers might be clouded in secrecy, BUT, I doubt it, and the question we all want answered is:

What "activites" were you doing that attracted your Sifus attention? Why were you picked after 20 years? How did he find you?

The answers to the above questions will give a lot of credibility to your story.

And PLEASE don't duck them, no you DON'T have to answer them, but you could save yourself a lot of hassle from the nay sayers if you did.

And why not, eh?? :)

HuangKaiVun

03-25-2002, 06:26 AM

My sifu found me on a classical music forum like this one and observed me from a distance for about 6 months.

At first, he was more interested in my violin playing. But then he started to see that I was using kung fu concepts in my playing (I'm a kung fu man first, violinist second) and started testing me without me realizing it at the time.

He was interested in my respect for tradition, my willingness to DO what I said I could do, my level of accomplishment, and usage of kung fu concepts from a violinistic standpoint.

Once he saw all that, it was just a matter of him confirming with his eyes and hands that I was what I appeared to be on the Net.

Why me after 20 years? It wasn't because of any special attribute on my part.

Rather, he felt that the people he had seen up to that point were not physically and emotionally capable of grasping his traditional style of teaching. That I had studied with great traditional masters on the violin for a long time and reached a high level indicated to him my capability in sticking with a traditional teaching style. Technically, I never disappointed my teacher.

I just happened to be the first guy to have fit his definition, and I'm sure I won't be the last.

guohuen

03-25-2002, 07:20 AM

Probably little consolation coming from a nobody like myself, but I have always been interested in what you have to say Kai, and understand if there are things you cannot say on line. If you need to chat in private, drop me an email.

Ralek..

03-25-2002, 07:42 AM

Huang,

I'm really in no posititon to judge you. For all I know, your whole story is completely true. After all, I'm just a troll right?;)

But after reading this:

"At first, he was more interested in my violin playing. But then he started to see that I was using kung fu concepts in my playing (I'm a kung fu man first, violinist second) and started testing me without me realizing it at the time"

I couldn't help but think that your story would be perfect for a modern day version of the classic "Kung-Fu" tv series...with a sorta cyber twist. People do everything online today, why not receive transmission of kung-fu from a master via the web?
I want to pitch this to NBC....

scotty1

03-25-2002, 08:06 AM

Questions answered, thanks.

KC Elbows

03-25-2002, 08:17 AM

Prediction:

This will soon be the longest thread ever posted without once having Huang come on and say "Stupid waste of a thread".

Mark my words.

dezhen2001

03-25-2002, 08:19 AM

have to beat Tae Li's thread first ;)

david

MightyB

03-25-2002, 08:53 AM

It was called "Vanishing Son". I'm not sure what station it played on. It might have been TBS or TNT.

Same story... classical violinist who's also a kung fu master...

TenTigers

03-25-2002, 09:33 AM

Frankly, I think the whole issue that has eveyone's panties in a bunch, was the term 'creating one's own style". In study of the martial arts, and music, you first learn your core foundation, framework, fundamentals-scales, modes,forms, techniques,etc. Then you "break free" and internalize your art, and it becomes your own. I am not classically trained in music, although I am a musician.(bedroom guitar-god) In jazz, blues, rock,and fusion, you improvise and develop personal style, but you must be firmly grounded in the basics (ya gotta have your chops) you have to develop sensitivity and feel, response, reaction, (play in pocket) and not just have a hodgepodge of techniques (overplaying with no soul) and you create yourself. John Maclaughlin, Al DiMiola,Miles Davis,Django Reinhardt, Santana,Jeff Beck,Hendrix,Van Halen, BB King,Chet Atkins, Charlie Byrd,Steve Vai,Bruce Lee, Mas Oyama,Moriehei Uyeshiba, Chang Sang-Feng, Wong Fei-Hung, Cheng Ting-Hua, Yin-Fu,(and everyone else who studied under Dong Hai-Chuan)Yang Lu-Chan, Yang Cheng-Fu,Cheung Lai-Chen, the list goes on and on.
I teach Hung-Ga. But my curriculum, my teaching methods, my personal choice of what applications I stress in my teachings is my own. It is the sum of my teachings (thus far)and my training and exposure to other styles and teachers.(I have studied Hung-Ga from more than 5 different teachers-Tang Fong and Lam Sai-Wing branches) but I still call it Hung-Ga, because that's what it is. Yes, I teach grappling, and sut-gok (shuai-chiao)and a lot of kicking techniques,because it's important, but I don't call it 'Rik-Ga". Perhaps one day I will refer to it as Ten Tigers Hung-Ga, only because it's my interpetation of my chosen style, but not to call it a separate system.
If Huang wants to teach his art, and add supplementary training sets, and drills, to round out his curriculum then more power to him. Does it make his system a different animal deserving of a new name? Time will tell. Chang Tung Shen teaches Tai Chi emphasizing his shuai-chiao-thus Chang Tai-Chi. I think it works.

Silumkid

03-25-2002, 11:19 AM

Darn...MightyB beat me to it. But that story had Tienenman Square! ;)

Much props!

HuangKaiVun

03-25-2002, 07:48 PM

Faugh.

Russell Wong is a good actor, but he's not a violinist. And whoever they got to dub his violin playing was obviously not a ringer either.

You play guitar TenTigers? I play jazz guitar too. I have lineage to Johnny Smith via my college instructor, and I now play with Smith's low D instead of the E in order to get different chord colors. Sometimes I'll go into clubs on open mics and play. I also play fingerstyle jazz improv a la Joe Pass.

When I go visit you, I'll take my Gibson Custom Shop Tal Farlow guitar and Fender AmpCan.

Serpent

03-25-2002, 09:18 PM

At first, he was more interested in my violin playing. But then he started to see that I was using kung fu concepts in my playing (I'm a kung fu man first, violinist second) and started testing me without me realizing it at the time.

Huang. Honest question, nothing more. What did he see in your violin playing that he recognised as "kung fu concepts"?

HuangKaiVun

03-25-2002, 09:39 PM

Honest question => honest answer.

I am an internal violin stylist.

Instead of using force and speed to generate projecting power on the violin, I use placement and proper body structure.

I also have exerted breath control on violin ever since I was a kid. I use short breathing and contract my abs slightly. My classical violin teachers tried to drub this out of me, but I wisely resisted because I'd lose my equilibrium every time I did that.

Also, I don't just play notes. When I play violin, I project myself outwards so that they can FEEL something. This is a hallmark of the violinistic lineage I come from - we don't allow our audiences to fall asleep on us. Doing so requires one to project his chi outwards.

My teacher saw me expounding on this stuff on a classical music board and then started to ask me more direct martial arts questions.