New Website

[PJO]

Check out this website http://www.fareastfightingarts.com/ It has video clips of different animal techniques when you click on the Chinese symbols. I thought it was pretty cool. What does everyone else think?

[ewallace]

Is that rich mooney in the cobra clip?

[ewallace]

I think it's kinda lame. The full media clips are in slo-mo and I have yet to see someone start a fight like este gringo does in those clips.

[PJO]

What do you mean you've never seen a fight start like that? Do you mean you've never seen someone try to punch someone else? Please clarify.:confused:

[Paul]

I sounds like this is supposed to be kung fu. If so why are there pictures of people wearing gi's and belts? just curious.

[norther practitioner]

Ah, no.....he didn't, he didn't say that "Shaolin Snake & Crane form - as seen in the original David Carradine movie, "Kung Fu." Only Far East Fighting Arts offers training in this rare form." Ok there buddy....how about the Da Mo story....I also like the woman who is leaning back a bit too far in that Tai Chi picture. The website is cool, however, I am a bit sceptical as of now as far as the school goes.

[Tae Li]

cool site!:D

Tae Li;)

[ewallace]

Watch closely to the cobra clip. Attacker who is 3-4 feet away takes one step and raises his fist. Then takes another step before an overhand right is delivered. I call this the baseball theory. This whole sequence is anticipated. I would be much more impressed if the two were talking a foot a way from each other and the attacker thru a right straight punch directly up his centerline and the attackee was able to counter it. This is middle-school-meet-you-at-the-bike-racks stuff.

[norther practitioner]

edub, thats probly his emphasis...self defense, and just showing the flavor of each animal...that and wearing a yellow gi.

[ewallace]

Yeah, yellow is for wussies. He could have at least found someone that would be willing to take a few hits to look good on the internet too.

[JWTAYLOR]

I would also like to be counted as one of those who liked the site but was VERY doubtful of the school.

What was the flurry of pointy finger crap in the mantis move. And in general, that block he used would never be strong enough to block a full force round house.

As long as he keeps doing everything in the air, I think he'll be very successful.

JWT

[PJO]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
Ah, no.....he didn't, he didn't say that "Shaolin Snake & Crane form - as seen in the original David Carradine movie, "Kung Fu." Only Far East Fighting Arts offers training in this rare form." Ok there buddy....how about the Da Mo story....I also like the woman who is leaning back a bit too far in that Tai Chi picture. The website is cool, however, I am a bit sceptical as of now as far as the school goes. At the Fareastfighting arts fighting arts school we are taught a snake and crane hand set. I rented "Kung fu" the movie and saw the begining of the same form that we do. The Da Mo story was what my da Shifus' teacher had told him about the Bodhidharma or Da Mo as the Chinese call him teaching the monks. The tai chi picture you mentioned was a beginners class.

[PJO]

Quote:What was the flurry of pointy finger crap in the mantis move. And in general, that block he used would never be strong enough to block a full force round house.

As long as he keeps doing everything in the air, I think he'll be very successful.

The flurry are dragging hands that rake through the eyes of the attacker when bending over from the snap kick to the groin. I don't see why that block wouldn't work, I've used it on people twice my size especially with the kick to the groin it seemed to work just fine!

[JWTAYLOR]

Here's a hint.

When performing a weak block against an opponent making strong strike GET OFF THE LINE OF ATTACK.

I can buy the techniques AFTER the initial couple of moves. But the flow of the techniques don't matter for squat if he runs over you with that first hit.

Next time try this. Line up witha class mate. Be WITHIN arms reach. Close your eyes. Now punch him as hard as you can in the head with a roundhouse punch. See if any of the techniques in those clips work.

JWT

[norther practitioner]

Shaolin Snake and Crane is not well, lets just say it isn't as rare as you have been lead to believe.

Da Mo, Ta Mo, Bodhidarma, whatever you want to call him, did not show any monks any animal forms. Well maybe he did, but very unlikely, about as likely as an anvil falling from the sky and making me an accordian. Sorry, just sarcasm....really though, what da mo did is of much debate, what is history, what is legend. I have never heard that legend, however, evidently it is out there. Check out the forums at www.russbo.com for some of the ongoing debate. It is under the discussion section.

Aumitofu
np

[PJO]

I've tried the technique and it works. The only time I would get off the line of attack is if the attacker was basically running at me or with a lot of forward momentum. If he's just standing there throwing a punch I don't see any problem going in on him after the intial block as in this technique.

[PJO]

Originally posted by ewallace
Yeah, yellow is for wussies. He could have at least found someone that would be willing to take a few hits to look good on the internet too. You could volunteer to take a few hits but I'm not. Each one of those hits is pretty painful if not devistating. As for the yellow it's the instructor's color.

[ewallace]

after having time to view all of the clips, I have formed a complete opinion. This isn't very good. Every single attack falls into my baseball theory. While good in concept these manuevers would fail against a trained fighter. Especially a western boxer.

[ewallace]

You could volunteer to take a few hits but I'm not.
I would and have (not on the internet). The instructor should be able to control the strikes so no lasting damage is done. It just all looks too choreographed for my taste. Nothing special or anything I haven't seen before.

I was just being a wise-ass about the yellow too. Don't take me too seriously on that one.

[guohuen]

The guy in the clips was sloppy and awkward. The background story was absolute BS.

[PJO]

I guess you really can't be sure. I've come across things on the internet that say Damo did teach animal movements including cobra which he brought over from India and that the original dragon movements where originally exercises he taught the monks.

[norther practitioner]

Thanks guohuen, thanks, I didn't wan't to say it like that.

[PJO]

Originally posted by guohuen
The guy in the clips was sloppy and awkward. The background story was absolute BS. What exactly was awkard or sloppy about the techniques. I know some of it is a little weird just because he didn't want to hurt the other guy. By the way it is almost impossible to do some of these techniques at full fighting speed without hurting the person.

[diego]

i swear they smack the **** out of thier students

[joedoe]

If you are going to promote your school by putting a link to its website, you've gotta expect some criticism. Don't take it too personally, everyone gets treated like that :)

[ewallace]

my guess is that yellah will show up as a new member very soon. Then the real fun will begin :)

[joedoe]

Finally got round to reading the background section of that site. Sorry PJO, but most of that history is completely fu(ked up.

I will not comment on the techniques, because every style has its own philosophy behind its techniques so what may be wrong in my mind may be right in another's.

[rubthebuddha]

and i quote ...

"Da Mo lives with in our Da Shifu - with unyielding commitment and devotion to teaching, he offers the lost art of Da Mo to any person, of any level of fitness, who has an open mind and a willingness to learn."

:rolleyes:

and does da shifu have a name or a lineage, or is the fact that he seems to be a white guy who's heir-apparent to a triad-taught system negate the need to say who you are and where you come from?

sorry, but that's just the initial skeptic in me. if the stuff is bueno, keep with it and good luck. however, in this age of made-up systems and half-assed combinations of three styles put together in a low-grade flashy way, it's nice to have some sort of background to back yourself up. if i say i was personally taught by so-and-so, it'd be nice to either have proof that so-and-so taught me and encouraged me in sharing the art.

again, if it's truly good, coo for you. however, i'm just not convinced of anything except that the history provided is just plain silly.

[wufupaul]

Umm..was it just me, or did anyone else notice that there was no root in his stances when he striked? All of the power(not very much), came from his arm movement, not through the transference of energy from the ground. Did anyone also notice that all of the defenses were basically the same? Slap off the initial attack, kick, then a flurry of sloppy arms. It looked like a cheap impression of american kenpo, it doesn't look like any form of kung fu that I have seen. :D

[guohuen]

His balance was poor. He did not have real control of his opponent. had his opponent struck back (which he had ample opportunity to do) his head was wide open as were his nads. He almost fell . There is no way he could have delivered any of those kicks with force (I know it was a demo and he was try not to hurt his opponent) had he kicked for real he would not have been in position for the next move. This is just scratching the surface.

[ewallace]

My gut feeling is that we have a mcKwoon on our hands.

[PJO]

The techniques on the site are only the beginings of our art. My teacher wouldn't show the complete art to anyone at least until black belt level. All of this style is soft and hard power combined so I guess I can see where you could be fooled into thinking the blocks or kicks are weak, but believe me you would not want to be on the receiving end of any of that. As for the history, my Da Shifu has told me of his teacher and his teacher is the one who informed him of its lineage. I have no reason to doubt its authenticity and don't see why some of you find it so difficult to believe. I have found a lot of stuff on Da Mo on the internet that supports the history my Da Shifu has told me.

[joedoe]

Except that many of the time lines don't match up - for example mantis did not become a style of fighting till centuries after Da Mo.

There is also a huge question mark over what Da Mo actually taught the monks. The current belief is that all he taught were the Marrow Washing & Tendon Change classics (which are very similar to yoga), whilst the martial aspects of Shaolin training came from a different source.

There just seems to be too much legend tied up in that history page. Shaolin certainly embroiled itself in the historical turmoil of China, so to say that Buddhist history is accurate because the writings survived is plain wrong - the Shaolin temple(s) and their records were destroyed several times through history.

[Serpent]

I didn't even get past this line:



SHENG HUN is a triad, Wu Tang-based, Shaolin style of Kung Fu


Jeezus, make up yer bleeding mind!

I smell a McKwoon of the richest aroma! ;)

[diego]

it could be he learnt a cousin of bakmie from a gangster?
not implausible, but it goe's:D

[wushu chik]

DUDE~ PPPLEASE don't EVEN come on here, and try to promote your "school" by putting up a BUNK ASS website that is so full of **** it makes my kids diaper smell good! History...BULLSH!T. Why the HELL would you put triad, wutang, & shaolin in the same sentence? WORK WITH ME HERE!!!!!! Do me a favor...if you are going to PRETEND to be kung fu...please take off the **** karate belts...and throw a sash on. they are about the same as a karate belt price wise...so your budget won't get r@ped. I won't EVEN get into the uniform...

At least when I posted MY website...I knew what to expect from the replies....GET OVER IT and don't try to fight the truth about what people are saying....this is a good site (format wise) but the school....P LEASE ....don't even get me started anymore. You know, the saying "First impressions are lasting ones...." Hmmm....what do you think? Guys...McKwoon is being NICE...God, i can't wait until Silumkid get's ahold of this one!!!

WOOO HOOOO :rolleyes:

~Wen~

[Merryprankster]

Because we all know that a style's history claims as poorly translated from chinese into english and embellished through decades and generations of oral tradition are FAR more important than whether or not they are turning out good fighters....

On the other hand, the website looks pretty gay.

And ewallace is right--if this is the way punches are intercepted, a western boxer would eat them for breakfast....

[gazza99]

WOW!!! All of the sudden I feel better about the Crappy video clips on my site!!!
If I were you PJO I would pick up a tae bo vid and call it a day, or perhaps even a david carridine one, the quality is about the same it doesnt really matter!!!
Regards,
Gary

[Stacey]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. Its a little choppy, but its pretty good. The mantis app was legit and cool. I don't know a thing about cobra style so I'll leave that one alone.

It looks like this guy does kempo. Then learned from a few videotapes. Thats my 2 centados.

[HongKongPhooey]

No lineage, No style, NO CLUE!!! You've been conned if you're training under this guy.

I have to admint though, the website looks good.

[Mr Punch]

Can we open a poll on this?

Normally I wouldn't bother tapping my fingers on this horse **** but I'm in a bad mood...

[Mr Punch]

You're going to the net to confirm stories your sifu has told you?

These sequences are the start of your art? So later on you learn to pick your ass up off the floor, and staunch blood flow from the nose in a single move whilst making admittedly animalistic grunting noises...?

Have you ever tried kungfu? Means 'work hard'... on your story if nothing else.

[Grays Anatomy]

As was said before - I am not in a position to comment on the techniques. Each style does things it's own way and I am not going to comment on that but (we all knew there would be a but)...

The history is VERY suspect.

Among the various historians and martial artists who have an interest in such things it is well known that the Shaolin Temples were VERY involved in Chinese Politics. Why do you think they were detroyed so many times? For fun? That's like saying the Vatican was never involved in politics over the years.

Everyone knew that the Temples were sided with one regime or another over the centuries.

Also - though no one knows for sure - there is a whole lot of oral tradition indicating when the various animal styles came about (and some written documentation). There is also a lot of history on Da Mo and the two don't meet. Da Mo (as far as we know) was quite a few years PRIOR to the various animal styles.

One other thing - according to the site:

"Sheng Hun does not teach traditional movements; basic movements that can be detected in most other styles of martial arts."

Well - I wonder - we all come from the same place. We have the influence of Da Mo and the Shaolin Temples in our arts just like your art does. We all have these "traditional movements" in our arts BUT your art doesn't? Even though it comes from the same place?

According to the history - Da Mo taught a small band of monks hiding in the mountains the six animals. Ok - what happened to the traditional movements over the years? All of our arts kept them but your teacher (and his entire lineage - if there is one) didn't? Doesn't that seem strange to you?

[ewallace]

Don't mind wushu chik. She is a little too passive at times.

Anyone have the link to that guy in Europe that was talking to some black guy when bg's friends came over and then bg sucker punched him and stomped on his head? That is how sh!t really goes down and is why I said earlier that this stuff wouldn't work against a trained fighter. Or even an untrained fighter.

[JWTAYLOR]

Hee hee. I didn't even check the history stuff. I love the Wu Dang Shaoling based style thing. Now that's comedy.


And PJO, if you can't see the reason for getting off the line of attack then you definately aren't using any force in your attacks. None of the techniques shown would have stopped a real punch. Sure, they might have misdirected a punch from your temple to your chin or neck, but that's about it.

Ok, let me ask this. Does your school spar? If so, do you make contact during your sparring? Are sparring matches judged? If so, what is the judging criteria? What is the level of contact? When is a round over? What protection is used? How often do injuries occur?

JWT

[PJO]

There is no sparring at our school. The techniques we do are too dangerous to do full contact sparring. I think the reason some people said it looks like kempo is because kempo is basically Kung Fu with all the animal applications taken out. Sheng Hun is the true animal unwatered down. Getting back to sparring, for us it would do no good because it would train us to pull back our weapons.

[Paul]

are you serious?

No sparring? this explains everything.

your techniques aren't too dangerous.

We spar bare knuckle with heavy contact at my school and I'm not dead yet or missing any body parts.

[dezhen2001]

ewallace: i remember seeing that - not a pretty sight... that's why you need 2-man drills and skill development exercises like chi sau and controlled sparring to develop skill...

If you don't have that then you will get knocked out in a real scenario (or worse).

david

[ewallace]

There is no sparring at our school. The techniques we do are too dangerous to do full contact sparring.
Yup. That confirms it. We have a mcKwoon. The only thing that would make this situation more perfect would be the instructor in those clips to be wearing red pants with the yellow gi.

[PJO]

Where in Oregon do you teach? Out of all the people on here you are the only one who might be able to come down and check it out for yourself. As with anything the best way to experience it is in person then make up your mind.

[dezhen2001]

for us it would do no good because it would train us to pull back our weapons.

How can you train to apply them (let alone worry about pulling them back) on a live, moving target if you don't do any type of partner/sparring training?

david

How about yellow gi, red pants and a bright green belt? :eek:

[PJO]

Originally posted by ewallace

Yup. That confirms it. We have a mcKwoon. The only thing that would make this situation more perfect would be the instructor in those clips to be wearing red pants with the yellow gi. Just because we are a war art that is strictly for self defence doesn't make us any less legit than a sparring, competion, sport art.

[PJO]

Originally posted by Paul
are you serious?

No sparring? this explains everything.

your techniques aren't too dangerous.

We spar bare knuckle with heavy contact at my school and I'm not dead yet or missing any body parts. We pair up with people and do techniques very slowly. As for your sparring I don't know if your art involves breaking an arm, knee, and taking an eye in the first few movements but that makes full speed, full contact very difficult.

[dezhen2001]

Hi PJO, why don't you explain some of the things you actually do in your kwoon, then people cna maybe understand where you're coming from...

Sparring/partner drills do not have to be competitive, but are there to develop skill so you can apply your full arsenal of skills in a fighting scenario. This is in a controlled manner so that you develop skill and no one dies!

david

[ewallace]

Just because we are a war art that is strictly for self defence doesn't make us any less legit than a sparring, competion, sport art.
¿Que?

This thread is outstanding. Before I dig deeper into the above statement, answer me this:
Do you have any two man drills?

Is there sensitivity training?

Do you put on any gear and do a more controlled form of sparring?

[dezhen2001]

oops - you already did it while i was writing :)

But, if you do this, do you also work up the intensity so you learn what it feels like to be having to defend full power and speed? It can be very scary, even after lots of experience. But not as scary as a real life surprise encounter (a la the scenario ewallace talked about earlier).

Does your style have any sensitivity training methods as well? (just curious as i do wing chun)

david

[PJO]

We don't put on any gear or do sensitivity training. We just pair up and do the techniques slowly. I explain a little more in a previous posting.

[norther practitioner]

errrrr, dude, stop while you are only this far behind.....way too many skeptics here for you to win. Don't take it personally, it happens a bunch here.

oh, and thank you, this is one of the funnest posts in a while.

[ewallace]

Yeah I saw that. A lot of schools/styles don't have sparring. That doesn't mean much really.

Do the drills go something like this:

Okay, attacker throws right punch as he steps in with right foot. Then you counter with move a, followed by moves b,c and d?

What I'm getting at is that it seems everything is based on ideas and not reality. Of course techniques will work against a willing oppenent and you know exactly what is coming your way. It is a whole different ballgame when a full speed combo is coming your way.

[Paul]

what a tool. Either that or a really good troll.

so basically you have no idea what is feels like to have someone come after you throwing non stop punches and trying to take your head off.

If you ever do get into a fight I hope you enjoy your hospital stay.

[PJO]

Originally posted by Paul
what a tool. Either that or a really good troll.

so basically you have no idea what is feels like to have someone come after you throwing non stop punches and trying to take your head off.

If you ever do get into a fight I hope you enjoy your hospital stay. We do train slowly but we also train for more than just a straight punch. We train for combos, uppercuts, kicks, someone running towards you, two,three, or more attackers at once. It is impossible to condense everything here or on the site.

[dezhen2001]

why don't you explain some of your training, so the others can understand what you mean :) It's sometimes difficult to explain things and get your point across just through typing... i make that mistake all the time!

good luck,

david

[ewallace]

It's not that some of us are trying to rip apart your school. It is the fact that there are some very good warning signs that says it is a mcKwoon.

1. Questionable Lineage. - Many styles have this.
2. Reference to the movie "Kung Fu".
3. Karate gi with cooresponding belt.
4. "The techniques we do are too dangerous ".
5. Our school is the only school that teaches...

By the way, can you give us any background on your sifu's teacher?

[PJO]

It's hard to condense but I'll try. Up through black belt we train for certain attacks punches, kicks, etc. with no diviation, but always emphasis on form, footwork, centerline, all the basics. The further we get the more we learn to blend and improvise. We are not locked into one technique. If we start something our basics allow us to take different avenues if need be. This comes after some time. We pair up as I said before but pratice slowly. We still throw punches hard but try not to commit too much because every strike we do is beating the body's next reaction ie. a snap to the groin bends you over into an eye strike so we keep our heads back. The further we get the more what ifs we practice for. ie. do a regular technique but the guy fell on you or grabbed in a unexpected way. These kind of things. It's hard to convey all of this in a forum or on the site. We also do Iron palm training and Chin Na in the mantis.

[Silumkid]

Well, even though it has taken me a while to get on stage, I can see Wushu Chik warmed up the mic for me....so let's get to it, shall we?

The format of the site is not bad...on a personal level, I hate that whole "shiny light effect of our spakling logo" thing. It's been done to death, but that's just my personal view.

No Bear video or did I miss it, or is that a concept and not a technique? I think a little clarification there would be nice.

The Mantis looked OK...but only OK. The angle was hard to see exactly what was going down in a few of those movements.

Crane....again, positioning was kind of hard to see around but all I saw was "crane wings" as far as the hands went.

Now, I don't care what drivel "Da Shifu" is throwing around up there in Oregon-town, but there is no reason in the world for the Tiger and the Dragon techniques to again look like Crane wings. They are completely different in their application and power delivery. If all I wanted to do was learn how to throw a few loose fingered slaps around, I'd tape soap operas. Also, I don't know what that "not even close iron cobra palm" was supposed to be, but snake styles generally ar aimed at the vitals, not the top of the head.

I'm also glad to know that DaMo actually went to Wu-Tang rather than Shaolin according to your cobra page. Now I can rest easily.

Now, had you all said "A triad, Shaolin art"....maybe it'd be called into question a little less....a little. But when you say it's a "triad, Wu-Tang, Shaolin art"....well, as was said earlier. Make up your mind.

"DaMo lives on in Da Shifu"??? That's about as disrespectful as when David Carradine said he has Bruce Lee living on in him.
You know, I'm all for people doing their own thing and all, but don't make stuff up to make it sound better. If it's good, it'll show. I'll draw a parallel here...Those who like to run around screaming about what "good Christians" they are, usually aren't.
I think I'll stop here before everybody starts thinking I'm a TOTAL jerk.

[PJO]

I'll try to answer a few things. My teacher learned in San Francisco from an old Chinese man that spoke no English. My teacher was always the only student. He learned the same things he teaches us except his teacher was very physically abusive in his teaching. Other than that I don't know much about his teacher and I don't ask because he has told me that out of respect for his teacher he won't go into too many details after all this was an art that was basically taught in secret to my teacher.
As for reference to Kung Fu and the gi's and belts, those are mainly for the general population. The website is to develope interest in the school mainly from people not involved in martial arts and whose only recognition of the art maybe the show Kung Fu or the use of belts. My teacher didn't receive any belts in his training but thought it might be a nice incentive for people just learning.

[ewallace]

How long have you been studying there? I ask you this because my bullsh!t meter has full mercury.

[dezhen2001]

San Francisco has a BIG Chinese community! Does your teacher speka fluent Cantonese or Mandarin (or some other Chinese dialect), otherwise it's VERY difficult to learn by movements alone... Respect for your teacher is all good and well, but you should know who your Sigong is (teachers teacher). It's like your grandfather!

Have you ever seen any other Shaolin animal based styles like Hung Gar, Preying Mantis or even the Northern Shaolin form Henan. I think you'd enjoy them, as Hung Gar has also got the 5 animals of: tiger, dragon, snake, crane and lepoard.

Also, does your style have any weapons?

Interesting... how long have you been training for anyway PJO? :)



david

[Paul]

I don't think PJO goes to the school on the website. I think PJO is someone else who posts here under another name. I'm also thinking I know who this is. Definately a successful trolling attempt.

who knows? maybe I'm wrong.

[dezhen2001]

could be...

Still, gets us all discussing what the difference between a McKwoon and a proper school are. That can only be a good thing for others who read and have no MA experience.

Coming from the UK i'd never really heard or experienced this whole McKwoon business until i subscribed to various forums. Now i know that if i move ot the USA to stick with my present Sifu :p

david

[JWTAYLOR]

I'm calling troll here.

This is just too perfect. He's said all of the right bullsh!t kung fu catch phrases.

JWT

[ewallace]

I was thinking of that too Paul. Regardless it is a good thread for educational and entertainment purposes.

[PJO]

I've seen a lot of other arts but some like Hung Gar seem to hard style and others like Wushu seem too traditional with too much emphasis on gymnastics and grace instead of application, just my opinion. We do some weapons training, double blades, and Shaolin stick but the emphasis is on our bodies and anything we put in our hands is just an extension of our own weapons. Also as for my teacher speaking Chinese, no he doesn't his teacher taught him by basically beating on him. If he wasn't low enough in his stance he would just kick the back of his leg. If he wasn't blocking hard enough he would just punch him. You can learn pretty quick under these circumstances. If there was something he just couldn't understand he would have the old mans' daughter translate. By the way I've been training for about five years.

PJO

[PJO]

I really am a student at far east fighting arts in Beaverton, OR and I truly believe it's the best self defense art, but that's just my opinion. I'm also curious as to what you consider to be a McKwoon and what is a proper Kwoon.

[dezhen2001]

This is what i can't understand from your post (if it's legit or not).

If he just gets beaten on - how the heck can u learn the internal intricases and principles? (if your art is nothing like Hung Gar, which is too 'hard'). Maybe ask Jon about that as he has a lot of experience there.

You can get your posture corrected and everything, but you have to get things explained to you as well as physically do them. Can you learn something like Taijiquan or Ba Gua just by getting it beaten in to you, and by doing the physicla only? I would very much doubt it.

Getting the leg kicked out if ur stance is wrong or punched if u block wrong sounds like my old Shotokan Karate training that i did between the ages of 8 and 20! :p

Anyway, good luck with your training and school :)

david

[norther practitioner]

We have to come up with a McKwoon scale.....this is going toward the top.....

lets see
.5 point for gi's
1 point for the too dangerous bs
1 point for the fact it is worthy of a -do

[dezhen2001]

:D

[ewallace]

I'm sorry man but I have to call bullsh!t on this one. The mercury on my BS meter just cracked the glass. Let me expand on my previous list.

1. Questionable Lineage/history. - Many styles have this.
2. Reference to the movie "Kung Fu".
3. Karate gi with cooresponding belt.
4. "The techniques we do are too dangerous ".
5. Our school is the only school that teaches...(fill in the blank)
6. Style has no representation by a Grandmaster.
7. Teacher learned from someone he couldn't communicate with (this makes passing on knowledge and history fairly difficult).
8. Teacher has made it so no one feels comfortable asking questions higher up the food chain.
9. Teacher was the only student of a chinese man and he is a cracker.
10. Feel free to add to list everyone.

My theory is that this guy had some training in some Shaolin. Dabbed here and there into some animal forms...enough to pass them off for what they are, and is no longer in good standing with his sifu because he decided to break off and try to make some money.

[PJO]

I just wanted to clear up that my teacher was in a one on one situation with his teacher. There may have been other students but he never saw them. As for being in good standing with his teacher his teacher died some years ago. Finally I think this forum would be empty if caucasians where not allowed to learn Kung Fu.

[norther practitioner]

Yeah, didn't you say that your da shifu learned the history and lineage from his teacher? Geez that must have been easy with the language barrier.......or did the teachers daughter tell it to him, or did he make it up, put in all the catchy words he could find?
Lets see we have
deadly
Kung fu
snake and crane
animals
errr anyone make up a lineage from a movie yet?

man edub, you are on this one.....
except, the lineage is more than questionable, its pretty close to bunkarific

[dezhen2001]

sounds like a standard 'business plan' :D

Yup. A few things i can't understand. Your Sigong is not like some idol you can't see or touch. He's like ur grandpa, so you should know who he is... and your lineage. Even if it is some 'secret' style. BTW, Cantonese is a scary language to try and learn for us gwei lo :)

Background: history doesn't correspond to the establihed norm, though it does mention lots of well known names (Damo, Wudang etc.)

david

[ewallace]

I am a pasty round-eye myself. I did however come with a dealer-installed BS meter in my brain. It is ringing like a salvation army worker in front of the mall at christmas time.

[dezhen2001]

must get annoying at times like that... ouch!:eek:

david :D

[wushu chik]

Just one more post from ME....

Go check out my thread "You know your Kung Fu sucks if...."

I am thinking #7 and #1 apply here, but I am sure, somewhere in there, the others do as well.....

What do you guys think??

~Wen~

[Silumkid]

ewallace,

Seems you are pretty spot on with this one except one thing....I don't think there is any Shaolin here. From other posts our newest troll has made, it sounds like Kenpo. Ed Parker wrote about all these same "animals" in one of his books, in fact, he mentions cobra rather than snake as well.

Which brings me to you again, PJO. You are doing a good job of ducking my charges, addressing everyone who has said they have no animal experience. Why? Is it too hard to fleece someone who has actually studied animal styles?

And your little spot of racism up there needs to put on hold permanent. If I remember right, your teacher is a white boy too, so I highly suggest you shut your face. You're entering bad territory here, son. Quit stepping in there or else you gonna hit a landmine.

[PJO]

Originally posted by Silumkid
ewallace,

Seems you are pretty spot on with this one except one thing....I don't think there is any Shaolin here. From other posts our newest troll has made, it sounds like Kenpo. Ed Parker wrote about all these same "animals" in one of his books, in fact, he mentions cobra rather than snake as well.

Which brings me to you again, PJO. You are doing a good job of ducking my charges, addressing everyone who has said they have no animal experience. Why? Is it too hard to fleece someone who has actually studied animal styles?

And your little spot of racism up there needs to put on hold permanent. If I remember right, your teacher is a white boy too, so I highly suggest you shut your face. You're entering bad territory here, son. Quit stepping in there or else you gonna hit a landmine. Well first of all dumba*s the racist point you brought was my point. In an earlier post ewallace implied that my art was invalid because my teacher as he put it is a "cracker" get your sh*t straight before you attack someone and what charges am I ducking? I have also studied animal forms so what?

[ewallace]

not invalid just very suspicious.

[dezhen2001]

It does remind me of the Kempo/Karate i have trained in and seen before. Hung Gar and other 'animal' systems flow and look differently... that's why i suggested he checked it out.

Wushu Chik - your thread cracked me up :D

david

[JWTAYLOR]

I'd also just like to jump right in here and say that this stuff looks nothing like Ed Parker's Kenpo.

No waist movment into the blocks/strikes. Not getting off the line of attack (that's the biggest clue it's not Parker Kenpo) Emphasizing "animal" sytles. (Parker did mention animal style history, but the art itself places zero emphasis on any kind of animal). NO SPARRING. (Again, giant glaring NOT Parker Kenpo sign here.) Repetitive movement (like the goofy 6 different "mantis" strikes to the same target right in a row.) No contact.

Just don't want anyone confusing this crap with what I've done for the last 20 years.


Oh, and I'm still calling troll. Or sheep. Maybe I'm just calling sheep.

JWT

[Silumkid]

Ah yes....so now the troll reveals himself for what he is. It's poor form (that means manners) to use so much profanity when none was used against you. Is that what your school teaches you?

ewallace did not imply any such thing....he was saying (as opposed to implying and yes, they are different) that your "story", which is exactly what it is, doesn't make sense. You sure are a defensive little person, aren't you?

What charges? Well, like I said, you're trying to fleece everyone but me. But, in case you are too lazy (which doesn't bode well for your 'kungfu' by the way) I'll repeat here.

I don't care what drivel your "da shifu" throws around in your part of the world but it is absolutely inexcusable for his "tiger" and "dragon" to look like crane wing applications. They are entirely different in applications, methods, and power delivery. You can say it's because of internet video all you want, but if I wanted to learn loose fingered slaps, I'd study soap operas.

And in case you didn't notice, your little temper tantrum of profanity will just be censored anyhow...so try showing us how well the Oregon public school system actually works and put a little thought into your next post. Maybe then we won't be so quick to say "TROLL"! Then again, maybe not. Your "story" still isn't adding up.

[Silumkid]

JWT,

Just for clarity, I never said it was GOOD kenpo. ;)

[JWTAYLOR]

Fair enough. God knows there's enough of the bad kind out there. I wouldn't doubt that in 5 years the same school on that web site says it's a Parker Kenpo school and that he directly learned from Ed Parker, recieving his 5 degree black belt in the early 90's.

JWT

[ewallace]

Why do I picture the iron palm training at that school as a student reaching into a flaming barbeque pit to manually flip over a big ass meat patty? Hamburgers anyone?

[Silumkid]

I wonder if the "spirit of Ed Parker will live on in da shifu" then too.

[dezhen2001]

flame grilled burgers... yum :p

Also so many styles use Kempo, Kenpo, Kempo Jujitsu etc. it's hard to tell the difference sometimes. FWIW i have never seen any Ed Parkers Kempo, apart from in 'the perfect weapon' starring Jeff Speakman :D

is it Da Shifu as in Big Teacher? (or do you mean Shigong?) To me it doesn't make sense?

dave

[PJO]

Sorry if I seem defensive but I don't enjoy being called a racist or being told to shut my mouth. As for your tiger and dragon comment I've studied the clips and find no validity in what you said.

[Silumkid]

Yup...enough holes to qualify as Swiss...cheese, that is! :cool:

[PJO]

Originally posted by dezhen2001

is it Da Shifu as in Big Teacher? (or do you mean Shigong?) To me it doesn't make sense?

dave It's Da Shifu, the Da comes from Da Mo and Da Shifu is a teacher of teachers. A Shifu is just a teacher.

[wushu chik]

GOD D@MN...your teacher doesn't think highly of himself does he? No humbleness there guys!! Look, we are talking to the student of the "Teacher of all Teachers". Funny, i thought he was a big fat white guy.... But i forgot Da Mo's spirit lives within him, and that that David Carridine...oh FU(K that...never mind...

Dude, stop smoking crack and spanking your monkey...you are really starting to look like a fu(ktard now...you had better just leave it where it is, because any deeper, you are going to have more than a shovel to get your way out of this sh!tpile...

[dezhen2001]

I never heard that terminology before :) You learn something new every day.

Usually it is the term Shifu = Teaching father
and Shigong = Teaching Grandfather (ie. the teacher of your teacher).

The Da, which maybe is the same as the Tai (Cantonese) in Tai Sigong means great, or greater. Is that the same as the meaning in Damo?

Also, do you know what the name 'Sheng Hun' means? I have limited cantonese/mandarin knoweledge and basically don't have a clue :)

thanks,

david

[ewallace]

PJO,

If you don't mind me asking, what are the monthly fees at your school and are there any contracts?

[Silumkid]

I'm disappointed. You had such long-winded answers for everyone else. So, I'll be more direct. I'm challenging ANYONE to find ANY similarity in those "dragon" and "tiger" clips to actual tiger and dragon applications. It's shouldn't take long...there aren't any.

Neither Tiger nor Dragon resembles ANYTHING like crane wing. Ever. Tiger and Dragon are NEVER delivered with such loose fingered "la dee da" slaps. This is why folks are questioning this. The facts don't add up.

[dezhen2001]

look at http://www.fareastfightingarts.com/bulletin.htm for the prices. Not bad prices actually...

From the little i know about the animal styles, i know that each one is very different, and has a different character to the others. Otherwise you wouldn't need ot bother studying the different animals, would you?

david

[ewallace]

This kind of mickey-mouse crap is exactly why we need the challanges that Evolution Fist and Red5 were talking about.

[ewallace]

I think I will add the lack of shoes to my list.

[Silumkid]

ewallace,

AMEN brother!

[dezhen2001]

good point

[Fen]

Being that I am a Sifu..I have something to say. PJO, you seem to be extremely arrogant. Your teacher, if what he says is true, he's the ONLY one that knows what he knows, about history and the art, well, then the rest of the world is all wrong...including the SHAOLIN MONKS. My opinion....I don't think so. I seriously think you should do some hard studying about all of his stories, and come to your own conclusion. You said for everyone else to keep an open mind, well, I think it's time that you opened yours and looked deeper into what your teacher is telling you. Quite honestly, i think this is all bunk and the stories don't wash. And if you ever met David Carrodine as I have, you would DEFINETLY NOT put anything about him on here, because he's an ass.

[Silumkid]

Seems there are some new additions to the anti-Troll Brigade. Welcome all! :cool:

[PJO]

I never said he was the only one who knew the history of all Kung Fu or that he was teacher of all teachers as Wushu chik said. Da shifu in our art means teacher of teachers. I'm a teacher and he is my teacher, that's it. As for the history he is the only one that knows the history of our art not all Kung Fu. The only one that might know more would be his teacher that passed away.

[apoweyn]

can't really argue with most of what's written here. technique aside, the history and da shifu's story about his old chinese instructor are just too perfect. so i'm siding with the people saying this is either a troll or a very unfortunate student.

i find it odd that this style is entirely to dangerous for sparring, and yet the teacher apparently learned exclusively by having the crap kicked out of him on a daily basis. that doesn't really gel. if the sigong can beat the sifu around and sifu can survive to teach it to others, then clearly sparring is possible. perhaps due to sigong's high degree of control. but then the question becomes "what's wrong with sifu's degree of control then, that he can't spar with it?"

last, i just wanted to point out what a brilliant observation it was that if sigong doesn't speak english, where did sifu get this history? the daughter? if so, why couldn't she go ahead and translate lessons as well? they thought it more effective to just beat on him? and yet he survived, even though the maneuvers are too dangerous for sparring?

presumably, he was protected from death by the spirit of da mo. me? i got saddled with the spirit of don knotts (and he's not even dead), so i guess sparring there would be far too dangerous for my likes.


stuart b.

[Paul]

I prefer Da Bears myself.

[wushu chik]

With all the newbies on here, it's getting really hard to tell who's trolling, flaming and being totally serious. But yeah, I think KLAN ATB is getting bigger.

[dezhen2001]

I think Tao was meaning the history of YOUR style, not gong fu in general. Some of the points about Damo and everything just don't match with established history from other styles... I'm sure he can answer for himself though

Also, about the animals: i always thought that the Shaolin Wu Xing Quan was composed of Tiger, Dragon, Snake, Crane and Lepoard and that the Bear, Deer etc. exercises come from a style of spontaneous Qigong developed around 600+ years ago (forget the date offhand)...

david

[rubthebuddha]

honestly, i don't think i've seen this much agressive anti-trolling in eons.

makes me misty-eyed. i'm proud of you guys.

and maybe i'm wrong on this, but this thread is on page 8 and i think the closest thing to a compliment this school received is either dezhen's saying the rates aren't bad or silumkid's minimal toleration of the shiny logo.

you guys called troll a bit ago, but i'm gonna say it again. however, i don't think it's a repeat customer -- at least the one some folks have implied. this guy's grammar is better than rolls' (which isn't saying much), and the mistakes he makes are different.

could it be that rolls has branched out?

regardless, this school hits more mckwoon criteria than any school anyone's brought up in a long time. i nominate it for mckwoon of the year. any seconds?

oops! break over! back to my gracie cd-rom ... :cool:

[dezhen2001]

I've heard these 'learned from the Grandmaster' stories before, they're all over the Net. But unless you're fluent in Chinese, it'd be pretty hard ot learn anything at all.

dave

[Paul]

I don't think it's rolls.

I remember something that happened quite some time ago.

the individual who goes by Fu-Pow made up another identity as a Chung Mooer and trolled the forum. I'm thinking he might be doing it again. that's who my money is on, if indeed this is a troll.

[ewallace]

I'm not convinced PJO is a troll. Just misguided.

[ewallace]

PJO, if your sifu can pull a ford excursion across a parking lot by his sac then I will take back every negative comment I have made about the credibilty of the school.

[dezhen2001]

If you study in a school and don't have exposure to the rest of the martial arts world, it's very easy to fall in to onf of the 'McKwoon' traps on Wusu Chiks thread.

At least if it encourages others to find out about the general MA community it's a good thing.

Also it highlights the fact that it's wise and prudent to spend a long time searching for the right school and teacher before embarking on a journey with them

david

ewallace: D@MN MAN :eek: :D

[Paul]

In that case, there is a slim chance that I'll be in Hillsboro for a day or two next month. If I happen to make it up there is there any chance I could get a private lesson from you PJO?

[wushu chik]

You know, I am going to have to agree with Rubthebuddha. I think this is even a bigger McKwoon than Samurai Karate. And that's a BIG stretch. This is hilarious. This guy shovels sh!t harder than anyone on here. And I thought some of US were crazy. He takes the award!

PJO, word of advice, get to know the people around here before you come on and start TROLLING all of us. We have been thru it enough to be able to smell the sh!t. It's getting quite old and annoying. And one more thing.....if you are an instructor, you have a lot to learn. Especially about having an open mind.

~Wen~

[Silumkid]

rubthebuddha,

I teared up reading your post! You are a good man. A good man, indeed! I am proud to be counted amongst the likes of you! *sniff* ;)

[Fen]

Oddly enough, your teacher as such a different "version" of the history that we all seem to know so well. That's what I meant. Da Mo's history on your site is so off base, I don't even know where to start.

Here's a good place for you to start your studying of the history as WE ALL KNOW IT to be.....

http://www.shaolinwolf.com/Shaolin/shaolinhistory.htm

Start cracking the books....Like all stuff written about the history, this site is just ONE interpretation of Da Mo's history. But being that it's a website about a shaolin monk (for the most part) it's pretty darn accurate. Have fun studying!

[gazza99]

PJO,
I just emailed your instructor and informed him of this wonderous debate in case he is unaware, I have invited him to come and answer our questions. I also cut/paste ewalles wonderfull list of BS reasons so he will no exactly the content of the thread in advance! Awaiting his reply....
regards,
Gary

[Silumkid]

Excellent work, gazza. You are to be commended for your thoughtfulness and hospitality! (secretly kicking self - Why didn't I think of that?) :cool:

[ewallace]

I knew I should have re-published that list with "having no shoes" ammended to it.

[PJO]

Originally posted by wushu chik

PJO, word of advice, get to know the people around here before you come on and start TROLLING all of us. We have been thru it enough to be able to smell the sh!t. It's getting quite old and annoying. And one more thing.....if you are an instructor, you have a lot to learn. Especially about having an open mind.

~Wen~ Thanks for the advice but I'm not a troll. I just happen to love and believe in my art. Is that a crime? I know no one else here sees what I see but to each his own. How am I closed minded? I've never put down any art or its validity, I've never said I'm the best or my art is the best or anything of that nature. I respect all arts. I think if you train and work hard enough you can be incredible at any art you choose. I'm very far from being any sort of master. My invitation to you Wushu Chic is still open. Come down to our school and see what were about before passing judgement on me or the site.

[norther practitioner]

SHRIEK! EEEEEEEEEEE! Purple drapes (Ned Flanders)
ah I mean, barefooted tai chi.

[ewallace]

I've never put down any art or its validity, I've never said I'm the best or my art is the best or anything of that nature.

Well, actually you have:


I really am a student at far east fighting arts in Beaverton, OR and I truly believe it's the best self defense art

[PJO]

I meant that it's the best for me, that's why I said in my opinion.

[Silumkid]

ewallace,

Don't forget this classic rendering (and I'll paraphrase for entertainment's sake!):

"Our art is an art of war and therefore, FAR too deadly to spar with, not like your poor arts that can kick and punch all day with no result."

Or something like that. Like I said, paraphrase! Next, I'll hold a seminar at Conjunction Junction. What's your function?

[dezhen2001]

i go home to make some noodles, and i miss all this:eek:
I woulda prefered Subway actually, but never mind...

PJO: good luck with your training :)
As long as you enjoy what you do and are happy, it really doesn't matter. The background story on your site and some of the other things on this thread that have been mentioned do seem to deviate from the established 'norm'. In the end it's horses for courses. I respect you for replying to all of our quesitons and things, i'm sure it's a pretty hairy situation to have the WWATO chaing you on Kung Fu Online!

Some of the guys on this forum have got 20+ years experience in martial arts, some even their chosen style. Any advice they give is well worth listening to IMO...

david

[PJO]

Originally posted by apoweyn
i find it odd that this style is entirely to dangerous for sparring, and yet the teacher apparently learned exclusively by having the crap kicked out of him on a daily basis. that doesn't really gel. if the sigong can beat the sifu around and sifu can survive to teach it to others, then clearly sparring is possible. perhaps due to sigong's high degree of control. but then the question becomes "what's wrong with sifu's degree of control then, that he can't spar with it?"
stuart b. My teachers Da Shifu's only control was that he wasn't doing Kung Fu techniques on my teacher. He did break ribs, loosen teeth, and break his nose. Now I don't know about you but I would want to go to a school like that. As far as my teacher I think he has an incredible amount of control as no one has ever been injured in our class.

[JWTAYLOR]

Dude, I hate to tell you this, but lots of people go to schools like that. I've had all of those things happen to me. That's what contact sparring will do for you. But it's worth it.

We're all being pretty harsh to you but believe it or not it's for your own good. We see allot of decent folks get totally shafted by BS "kung fu" teachers. These people are led to believe that they can defend themselves and that they can defend others. Unfortunatley, it's a martial art, and not caligraphy. If you don't know what you are doing and you think you do, bad things can happen. Really bad things.

Moreover, bullsh!t schools make all martial artists look bad, and that really p!sses people off. See how I got immediately defensive when people mentioned your school and Ed Parker

Just do yourself a favour and really question what you are doing. Go around and look at other schools. Go to another schools open fight night, or a vale tudo night, or step in the ring for a San Shou or even an NHB match. Don't complain about the rules being restrictive unless you are willing to admit that you and your art are not adaptive and that you are stuck in repetative patterns.

Just go on out there and see for yourself. Based on the replies you've given so far, there is not way you could have already done this.

Question your instructor, and question your school. I've known my instructor for 20 years, and you bet your sweet bippy that I don't take his word for it. I test it out against non cooperative opponents that don't know what I'm trying to do.

I suggest you do the same.

My simple motto, 'NEVER TRUST. VERIFY".

It could do you some good.

JWT

[ewallace]

Here is the link to the clip that I was talking about:
http://www.vg.no/video/pop.hbs?rm=/vg/01/11/03voldsfilm.rm&w=320&h=240


Brought to you in part by wufu paul

PS.
You've been a good sport and I still don't think your a forum troll.

[dezhen2001]

every time i see that clip it makes me cringe! Nasty sucker punch/elbow. Can't see it coming. Really hurts.
I always wondered what the guy was doing there anywayz...

david

[Mutant]

PJO;
My intent on joining this discussion is not to jump on the bandwagon, but to give you my own honest opinion, because I don't think you are a forum troll and I feel kind of bad for you cause you seem sincere in what you do and are enthusiatic about kung fu. I also respect that you've answered all those questions and taken the hard knocks. But listen to these folks advice, there is a huge spectrum of knowlege and experience here. Think of it as 'tough luv' :D ....well on second though, maybe not, but theyre actually arguing in your best interest.
I think JWT had some good suggestions and rationale behind what he said, open your eyes, test what youre told, and do your own research, there are plenty of sources online or at the bookstore or library, read as much as you can. I'm glad you enjoy what you do, but don't be taken for a fool. And what you've learned already may be some workable basics (or bad habits) to continue learning on, but it doesnt appear to be real kung fu, and if kung fu is what you want, you need to go beyond what youre learning now.

So here's my opinion of your schools website (after all, you did ask us to check it out and give opinions):

If youre gonna rip off Shaolin, or Wudang, or even the Triad gangs (and many bogus schools have and will) at least bother to get the basic history correct. I just checked out the website that is in debate and really intended to keep and open mind and give it a chance....
But d@mn that is some confused bunch of b.s. on there. It was actually a fairly nice website, but the content is a load of Cr@p! Totally anachronistic, borrowing names out of context or even correct association, with all the dates that have been pretty much agreed upon by historians, off by centuries. Making up new words, names and titles. Flagrant contradictions...the list goes on and on.
It states that "Buddist records are a reliable source of information" and then goes on to re-write history and actually ignore the facts and history as is known and generally agreed upon by the CMA community. It even gets the mountain names and geography incorrect. And don't they know that Wudang (spelled Wu Tang, like the rap group there, and refered to as a mountain range..) is TAOIST, not Buddist, for cryin out loud? Although the different temples were highly influenced by each other, youre comparing apples and oranges there, bud. It states it is a war art and then that it isnt a war art, and that it doesnt teach traditional movement like other arts (then what the heck is it teaching and based on if all those other arts are originally based on traditional shaolin?)...and man, the ego of that sifu (or whatever he calls himself) is rediculous, making claims that are almost as rediculous as that chung moo doe cr@p.
The animal technique examples look made up, too. I studied 4 years of Wu Xing Chuan (tiger, crane, leopard, snake, dragon) before I changed kung fu schools and they fundamentally would not do techniques such as those in a self defense sequence. The mantis, as many people here can verify, was not one of the original animals, but a later development/evolution. And the Bear??? There are some chi gung bear sets but I know of no original shaolin bear fighting...maybe Hsing Yi has a bear, I don't know much about that.... And I just looked at the techniques again, slowed down, and thats just not shaolin animal kung fu by any stretch....it looks like bad karate or kempo with a few (shakey) shaolin-like stances randomly thrown in at the end of the sequences, let alone being totally unrealistic attacks and responses.
That stuff is obviously all made up. Sorry to help burst your bubble, but its for your own good if you want to learn real kung fu some day. I'm sure people here could recommend some worth while schools in your area. Good luck with your journey.

[guohuen]

Mutant Warrior, you scare me sometimes with your knowledge!
PJO, I also think you are a sincere person. particularly since you have taken a lot of ribbing like a gentleman.
To be honest with you the clips reminded me of the awfull mixture of Hung Gar, Shotokon and Jiu Jitsu that I used to do about 27 years ago when I had about 8 years of experience. In my case the following year I was in a position to spar alot. I quickly discovered that I had a lot of tightening up to do. Perhaps your instructor will improve as I did. For me it meant dedicating myself to one art, studying and practicing to make it as effective and authentic as possible. This means constant research and training.
If you want to learn a traditional Chinese martial art I suggest you shop around and ask a lot of questions for this is a way of life and bad habits are hard to break.

[Satanachia]

Well its given me a few laughs at least, but lay back on the no shoes thing, some of us have to train where they don't allow shoes to be worn on the mats :P

Now i hope to god this was a troll, cause otherwise i feel a bit sorry for the guy. But if its worth anything, unlike some of the other guys on here, i've only been learning for just over a year, so i officially admit i know squat all. And i also know very little about the animals. But that being said, lets begin.

1. "As far as my teacher I think he has an incredible amount of control as no one has ever been injured in our class."

Now i'm sorry, but this just doesn't sit well. I mean sure, full credit to those who manage to prevent unnecesary injuries, but to me this points to more of not doing anything remotely dangerous or effective than "incredible ammount of control". I mean come on, not even an occaisonal blood nose, bruises, sprains, twisted ankle, anything.

2. I don't believe there's any such thing as a technique that is "too deadly" to be used. Moves that break bones or rip tendons or poke eyes or whatever can be edited or at least changed somewhat so they can be practiced upon a resisting opponent. Punches can be aimed at the shoulder if your worried about hitting someone full on in the face should they fail to block it. And if they do fail to block it, good, it'll teach them that they did something wrong, and also give them a little bit of feeling of what its like to have actual contact made. Or get your partner to wear focus mits on one hand or something and use that as a target for those deadly strikes to the head.

3. Does anyone attack like that guy in the video? I mean look at the mantis one. He's had his arm blocked, been kicked in the nads, been struck repeatedly by those spinny mantis hand looky things, and his arm is STILL stuck out there like a concrete poll.

4. How do you know your blocks work if you don't have full strenght punches being thrown at you?

5. People should go easy on the video's. Things can look deceptively unpowerful and uncordinated, especially in slow mo.

That being said, a question for the more experienced guys here, that i'm not to sure of.

6. In the mantis video, the guy blocks across his body with his right hand and doesn't even get out of the way of the attacker. Is it just me or would the guy of been flattened had the attacker simple just come in with two punches instead of one?

[rubthebuddha]

silumkid: happy to be of service. but in our brigade, i believe you are either my sihing or superior officer by a step or two. regardless, i'm just happy to please my senior. maybe i won't get kp tonight!

[jon]

rubthebuddha @ Silumkid
How does one become a member of the ATB?
I try to do my bit for the cause as it is and would love to actualy be part of an organised effort.
Does trolling trolls count as 'anti' trolling?


As for the website in question, im trying really really hard to not speak public ill of other martial artists UNLESS i believe them to be defrauding people. This school clearly is, from the bogus history to the rediculous things that have been stated about the instructor there is nothing that looks legitmate.
The techniques on the webpage are also nothing like animal boxing, i should have some idea i have five years counting in southern five animal boxing. Under the Hung Ga system which as many here will attest is a well respected animal system.

I dont know what that system IS so i wont pretend i do but i certainly know what it isnt.
Shaolin and Wudang (which i also study ) based arts look nothing like any of this stuff.
The idea of an art being influenced by Triads Wudang and Shaolin is also totaly ammusing.
As others have said MCKWOON!!!

[rubthebuddha]

well, i'm actually interim director of membership. our current director, ryu, is off having too much fun in his new relationship and doesn't care about us much anymore ;).

anyhoo, just state why you hate trolls, perhaps secretly admit to yourself that you actually miss ralek in his simple form, and delicate sound, silumkid, myself and a few others will take you under our wing.

[jon]

rubthebuddha

"just state why you hate trolls"
* I cant lie to you guys:( I LOVE trolls, they give me something to laugh at and an excuse to launch pointless personal attacks though text. Still i do make myself a pain for them if that still counts?

"perhaps secretly admit to yourself that you actually miss ralek in his simple form,"
* Ive admitted in public let alone secretly, i really miss ralek he was just so darn amusing.

So yeah i do try to do my best to disparage trolls but i cant admit to actualy not liking them:eek:
Am i still welcome in the aligence?

[rubthebuddha]

probably. at least you're honest. as long as you help keep the trolling of the healthy kind (the kind that questions for the sake of spurring discussion) and you do your best to root out the **** that people like pjo put up, you should be fine.

silum or delicate -- your guys' take?


sorry, but i have to say this: jebus, a yellow gi? did the ****ing joker take up karate or something?

[grogan]

The way I found my Sifu (and that word actually means something to me now). Find some manouvres that you don't know the exit for them. One of them was a wrist lock that I used on different instructors one that you think to ourself how the h ell do I get out of this one, and listen to the answers for instance some ju jitsu schools told me to do a flip and roll out of it (of course the person that is applying this is to polite or to slow to boot you in the head while you do roll) other kung fu schools told me to do a hand puppet show. My teacher said let him break your wrist while you crush his throat with your spare hand, you walk away not being to be able to play playstation for a while your opposition has some other things to worry about. Or ask him this RJO what do I do if your opponent has all of his fingers grabbing your throat and is a split second away from squeezeing? if your Teacher says do this or this or turn like this or apply this thumblock walk out of the school if he says what mine told me which was "your Kung Fu no good you have a couple of seconds to live think happy thoughts" you know your teacher won't bs you.

[Grays Anatomy]

Sorry this got a little long winded....

RJO - I don't think you are a troll - but I DO think you are one misguided soul. I applaud your devotion and dedication to your Sifu (or whatever version of teacher he uses) but you need to question what is being presented to you. Some of the people here have quite a lot of knowledge which they are MORE than happy to provide you - use it. I have almost 10 years of study in traditional shaolin arts from two different schools and NONE of the things you present make sense.

You said (and I am paraphrasing becuase I just don't feel like searching for the exact words) that you don't question your Sifu about your Sigung out of respect. Huh? Where does that come from? I know my current Sigung. I have eaten dinner with him. I have asked him about His Sifu and His Sigung. If you know anything about the Asian cultures (and I freely admit I know VERY little) they tend to revere and honor their elders and ancestors - not hide them (unlike much of the west). Have you ever been inside of any other traditional schools? If you have - ask yourself - why do many of them have an altar in the school honoring their predecesors? I have NEVER heard of not asking. He!! - we require our first year students to memorize our lineage back some 8 generations!

Do you question your Sifu about what you do and more importamntly WHY you do it? Me and my training brothers and sisters question EVERYTHING. Sifu says - do this like this and we typically respond with WHY?

Also - have you ever heard the word - CONTROL? I have never seen a "deadly kung fu move" which could not be used in a controlled situation in a school. Every art studied here has "deadly" moves. All of them are practiced - you need to learn to control yourself so you don't really hurt your training brothers and sisters while doing it.

Another question - if your moves are too deadly to even practice like that - what will you do in a simple self defense situation - maybe a simple bar fight or a simple case of road rage? Kill your oponent? Don't you have any moves which just let you beat the crap out of someone? Is the only option in your school to do real HARD time for killing someone who spilled a drink on your girlfriend? Or maybe doing similar HARD time for blinding a guy who thinks you stole his parking spot? Or - is the option to let this guy kick your a$$ because you just don't want to use something too deadly? Doesn't any of this seem odd to you? Realistically - what would you do if someone just took a shot at you? Would you be required to hurt them that badly? Is there no sense of control? Can't you just fight someone? It seems like all of your members who EVER use their art - would wind up in prison.

One last thing and I will get off my soap box...

This is from JWT
"Just do yourself a favour and really question what you are doing. Go around and look at other schools. Go to another schools open fight night, or a vale tudo night, or step in the ring for a San Shou or even an NHB match. Don't complain about the rules being restrictive unless you are willing to admit that you and your art are not adaptive and that you are stuck in repetative patterns.

Just go on out there and see for yourself. Based on the replies you've given so far, there is not way you could have already done this.

Question your instructor, and question your school. I've known my instructor for 20 years, and you bet your sweet bippy that I don't take his word for it. I test it out against non cooperative opponents that don't know what I'm trying to do."

What he says here is on the mark. If your art is really as good as you claim - then none of the other arenas will hold you. You will either win a lot or hurt a lot of people. If your art is really as good as you think then when you have a look at the other schools (even if you just sit and watch a class) you will know that what you see is not as good as what you know.

I just want to close by saying that I am a big proponent of telling people that if you get what you want from what you study then GOOD FOR YOU. If you enjoy what you do then GOOD FOR YOU. BUT if you are not getting what you think it is and if you are getting ripped off and being told that what you are learning is the cat's a$$ when it isn't - well you will just gethurt in then end.

"A warriors art for self defense" and "..its too deadly to use" Ha! I luv that! Oh man - that makes me laugh. Oh dear. My side hurts. Oh jeez. (Sorry - I couldn't resist ):D

[Mr Punch]

This plank has taken up 10 pages of nonsense when people were calling troll on him around page 3. Troll/dupe? Who cares? He's just had 10 pages of advice on how to REALLY hook people into his sorry-assed style. This will cause: 1) more of a bed rep for cma; 2) some people to get really hurt.

Whose thread is it?
Thread's dead baby, thread's dead.

[apoweyn]

PJO,

so sigong didn't kill sifu when teaching him because sigong wasn't using real kung fu on him. and despite this fact, he still broke sifu's nose, etc.?

well, if sigong didn't speak a lick of english and he didn't actually perform kung fu on sifu, how did he teach it? was it ever applied at all?


stuart b.

[dezhen2001]

exactly my point apoweyn, which is something i've never been able to figure out when i've heard stories like these before. How the heck can you learn the intricases, theory, philosophy, history of a style when you can't even understand the language?

david

[ewallace]

And, if the Sifu's teacher is dead, how is his knowledge of the art expanding? Being that M/A is supposedly a life-long journey.

[dezhen2001]

it can still expand as long as you understand the principles of your art... Peoples Teachers die all the time, and they have to carry on, don't they...

that sounds kinda depressing :(

david

[Rolling Elbow]

Number one rule of good japanese and chinese arts...don't expect to always hold teh center line. you can regain it, but don't sit and stay in it!

(unless your wing chun i suppose..but even they shift the upper body and feet slightly no?.)

[ewallace]

Yeah dezhen they do. However, he was the only student. No one to compare notes with, no way to really be sure he was taught the complete system.

[dezhen2001]

Sure. I agree with what you have said. It must be real hard if you have no classmates. Either on the student if the teacher dies, or the teacher if the student dies...

Thankfully i'm not in that position!

david

[PJO]

Hey, just checking back in. There are a lot of questions about my art. I don't think I can get to all of them because I just don't have the time but I'll try to answer some questions. First of all the whole deadly art thing has been a little misconstrued. I didn't mean that every technique we do kills the person, bust most involve a checked or broken knee, eye stick, or broken bone. We also have outs where we don't have to use these but the philosophy is that I want to put this guy down asap and I don't want him to get up angrier than he was before. If he has a broken leg than I'm sure he won't be getting up that soon. It maybe possible to spar with this stuff but it seems very difficult when each strike is dependent on the bodies reaction to the previous strike. If I don't kick the knee I won't get the reaction I'm looking for and would have to change what I'm doing. The techniques on the videos where standardized for straight rights but that's not the only thing we do. We practice combos, kicks, uppercuts etc. We do throw punches hard to make sure our blocks and foundation are solid but the puncher usually has to back out to allow the attackee to continue his motion without pulling his weapons of center. As for checking out other schools I have and just don't like what they have to offer. My emphasis is on self defense and not so much the artistic/historical aspect. I truly believe that this is the most complete art for me, and as for checking out any NHB or UFC types events I kind of feel like that would be like asking a soccer player to check out an american football game. It doesn't make sense to me. I'm sure I'll be ripped apart for my opinion but that's what it is, my opinion. I still respect all martial arts and don't think any one is the best just the best for you.

[ewallace]

I respect your opinion. If that is what you feel is best for you then who cares what anyone else says. You cannot get the total picture of a style based on a couple video techniques and a website. However, there are some definite red flags that went up and needed to be further investigated. You did however take the hazing very well and for that you have my respect.

[Mutant]

PJO,
Much of your technique and strategy is apperently based on an opponents anticipated reaction, and series of resonsed based on these. I have found that people seldom react as you believe they will, even to a kick to the knee, for example. Not just to my kicks or strikes, but as a general rule of thumb in fighting. You really can't say that just because you throw a straight punch to the head, that it will tilt back just so, or a straight punch to the body, that he will buckle over precisly at this time and angle. Thats where whole chaos aspect comes into play. You can't rely on a pre established and determined series of events falling into place, that never happens in the real world, or in real sparring. Don't worry about hurting people too much with your dangerous techniques, I'm sure you'll find that theyre not always as damaging as you'd like when applied on a resisting opponent. Human being are much more resilient, tougher, cunning and unpredictable than you give them credit for. So in a sense, youre right, you wont get the reaction that you need or anticipated, which will screw up your rythem and game plan. But not because youre holding back...don't hold back, I'm sure you could find many people who would be willing to spar that hard and risk those injuries as you try to apply your techniques.
Without putting these assumptions to the test, theyre all acedemic, and we here can tell you straight up that your acedemics are fundamentally flawed.

[ewallace]

Very well said...for a mutant.

[Silumkid]

Hey rubthebuddha,

Truly, you flatter me! I am not worthy of such praise! :D

Re: jon...I can say that jon and I have been friendly adversaries on the "Li Lian Jie" thread. What the lad may lack in straight debate skills (which is minimal), he more than makes up for in determination. In short, I like the lad. I think he would fit in just fine.

Now, on to our subject...PJO, I hope that wasn't you and/or your teacher (handle Da Shifu??) that sent Wushu Chik that e-mail in the "More from far east..." thread. It was offensive and cowardly and that's all I am going to dignify it with other than what I posted in the actual thread. If you say it wasn't you, fine. Whoever it was should be less of a coward and try posting that garbage publicly like the rest of us have the stones to do.

[Water Dragon]

LOL @ this thread :D

[old jong]

....Nice site...:rolleyes:

[wushu chik]

OK Kung Lek...thanks for closing ALL of them. UH HUH. WHATEVER. I don't understand what is with you mods lately.. YOU leave all the bunk thread up, and close all the cool ones...

[David Jamieson]

aren't we a provocative one. :D

hey *poke* *poke* what about this one? or that one?
hahahahaha.

I guess im gonna have to read through this 140+ reply thread?

peace

[Fen]

You r not a good moderator!!! Especially when i have read worse threads on KFO!!! So sorry!!!! for all us that r DEFENDING THE TRUE ARTS! of Shaolin!!!! if u do not like your job then quit!!! and Let us Save the TEMPLE!!! form the Fakes!!!!!SO SORRY!!!! :rolleyes: KUNG FU LOUSY!!!!!!!!!!!

[David Jamieson]

yeesh! :rolleyes:

I think one thread dealing with this is enough.

peace

[diego]

hopgar.
Now kajukenbo comes from hawaii and hopgar started in tibet.
So i have a almost 1200-1500 year differance in relation to damo, as he started the 18styles in shaolin and kajukenbo started in 1948 and i dont think emperado the founder picked up choylifut till the fifties and as kaju does took the more unicersal finepoints and mixed it in his style.
and hopgar suppossedly had a exchange with hunggar around 1850-1950 sometime?.
I'm sure everyone can trace abit of shaolin in thier lineage?!> so PJO instead of whoever has posted from your school takeing offense to these posters laughing at your ignorance, please see
we are the ignorants who were told a false history so we tend to understand halfasss, compared to us if we inherited the true 18 animal spiritual referances wich would then imbue to us,
NATURE'S WAY'S or something, so could you correctly enlighten i to what i have been blinded.:D
salemalakem!.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by PJO
There is no sparring at our school. The techniques we do are too dangerous to do full contact sparring. I think the reason some people said it looks like kempo is because kempo is basically Kung Fu with all the animal applications taken out. Sheng Hun is the true animal unwatered down. Getting back to sparring, for us it would do no good because it would train us to pull back our weapons.

I haven't looked at the site yet, but was trying to read all of the posts in this thread. After getting to the above quote however, I fell out of my seat laughing.

[anton]

just posting this to express some opinions, namely i think:

1) PJO is either a really good troll (in which case he has my respect for starting a relevant discussion) or a poor misguided McStudent (in which case he has my utmost sympathy).

2) Kung Lek is a good moderator... cmon give the dude a break. have a look at some mods on other forums.

3) I love this place !:D

Its late in the night so i just posted this.... my real post is coming and its gonna be a looooong one...;)

[Asia]

Whew!!! I read ALL 12 Pages!!! Thats right ALL 12 pages!!! I have just spent US GOVT's money to read all 12 pages of THIS!!!!
MAN I AM BORED!!!!!!

[dezhen2001]

i hope it was money well spent :D

david

[joedoe]

Originally posted by dezhen2001

...
The Da, which maybe is the same as the Tai (Cantonese) in Tai Sigong means great, or greater. Is that the same as the meaning in Damo?

...

The name Da Mo is a shortening of his full name Bodhidharma. The Chinese could not pronounce the name correctly, so it was broken into Chinese syllables and became Pu Ti Da Mo, then shortened to Da Mo.

So I would doubt that the 'Da' in Da Mo means big/great/large. :)

I'd have to say, Da Shifu sounds very much like a made up title to me.

[Tae Li]

What in the world is this thread supposed to be about?????:confused

Tae Li;)

[Fen]

I think i might come and VISIT Your School When you are open!! I stoped by today 03/24/02
I like the fountain nice touch!!! I will be By to see you and your school Soon!!!
So give me your name so i can Ask for YOU and say that you extended the invitation!!When I come back up there!!

[northstar]

The "da" in Damo means "arrive at", the "mo" means "to rub". I don't believe there's any deeper meaning to this, it's simply using characters for phonetic spelling. Incidentally, Luohan breaks down as "thin light silk/net for catching birds" + "Chinese/Han dynasty"...

[dezhen2001]

joedoe,

that was why i asked that question ;)
Thanks foir explaining the meaning though, i didn't know that :)

dave

[guohuen]

Po Ti Da Mo = Bodhidarma

[Shaolindynasty]

Good lord! I read this whole thing.


I have to say that a questionable history isn't a big deal but......with as many inconsistancies as this site portrayed this school as having is somthing to make you take notice. Is it just me or do all these fake "kungfu" schools all look like bad kenpo?

Somebody above said the prices were good I think. I'd just like to say look closer it wasn't $25 per month, it was $25 per week! Wow that's $100 per month! Very expensive to me. The picture of there huge storefront school shows why you pay so much.

I think this school belongs in the same catagory as samuri karate, shaolin do, temple kungfu, chung moo doe.

All the classic symptoms of Mckwoonitus are there. Untraceable secret history, masters with no names who you can't ask about, no sparring, heavily choreographed technique, Karate gis, the students looking up to the teacher as if he were not human. And there is probally allot more I can't think of right now. I'll just have to say I haven't been this entertained since I first came on here and started talking about shaolin-do.

[wushu chik]

CULT! I bet they get secret names too!

[rubthebuddha]

i'm kinda disappointed that no one's said anything about the iron palm stand -- which actually says iron palm on it in fancy lettering. just in case you forgot what you were practicing, you could crouch down, look on the stand and be reminded!

quite handy. :cool:

[dezhen2001]

i actually did notice that, and especially liked the 'mandarin' typeface for the words :D

Forgot to say before - $25 a week if you train in 3 or 4 classes a time is pretty good IMO...

david

[anton]

$25US per week seems a bit hefty to me. We used to get charged a yearly membership fee of AU$100 (about $50US) - which they told me not to pay after I had been training for a few years. Then we'd pay $60AU (roughly 30 US) for 3 sessions a week. $70AU (roughly 35 US) for 4 sessions per week, and $80AU (40 US) for 5 sessions a week. Each training session went for about 2.5 hours. Plus we could come in on Saturday and go through some forms with Sifu.

[dezhen2001]

if you read the website, it says:

TUITION
Each week, our standard program gives you full access to:
FIVE 1-hour group training classes
TWO Tai Chi classes
ONE half-hour private lesson with a qualified instructor

All for only $25.00 per week per person, paid monthly.

which imo sounds pretty good value, no matter what they teach

david

[wushu chik]

Some of my students and I were talking tonight, and looked this thread back up.....I thought everyone would like a good blast from the KFO past!! Happy Reading!!

~Wen~

[dezhen2001]

i can't believe u managed to dig this old thread up! :D
Where the heck did PJO go anywayz? :D

david

[wushu chik]

Um, last i heard, he had moved into the cave with Da Shifu and Da Mo!! Hope he's doing well, I do miss him so!! ;)

~Wen~

[TaoBoy]

Holy cr@p...will this thread ever end?

We will be talking about this one for a while to come.
Those videos...eeer oooow aaaah... :rolleyes: