Explain me this thing called muscle!

[Serpent]

I train at a pretty intense level and my strength and fitness are very good. However, for ages now I haven't actually built much extra muscle (in the sense of muscle size and, potentially, strength).

I don't do weights, but I do lots of pushups, etc. and considerable amounts of strength training in the way of forms, bagwork and so on.

I'd like a little more muscle mass and more strength is always a bonus. Other than additional weight training, what would you guys suggest for additional muscle and strength? I'm concerned that I'm not gaining muscle but losing it due to overtraining the muscles. I'm rambling here, thinking as I type. Sorry about that.

What about foods? For example, if I ate a lot more protein to helpk build muscle, would the excess protein turn to fat? How much is too much protein, bearing in mind that I don't do a heavy weights regimen? My body fat is pretty low (I have no idea regardin %) and I do a fair amount of cardio stuff too (swimming, cycling, sex, that sort of thing ;) )

So, what do you all think? Did I make any sense at all there?

:confused:

[jon]

Serpent
I have the exact same problem you do :(

I asked my sifu for his words of wisdom and after much thought and deliberation he gave me these pearls of wisdom which i have treasured and now offer to you...

" You need eat MORE!!!"

[diego]

you gotta pump heavy loads so it thinks it needs more power, then when you rest, that's when the muscle actually develops, as your body adds more protienfibers to your muscle, you only have so much muscle, wich is set how much you will attain in your early youth, it's the building of extra protien fibers that actually makes your muscles look bigger.
Now thier was a discussion about, performing better then before a twoweek training period, and the poster's said i thought i would be crap when i started training agian, yet i was even more powerfull then when i start.
That's why i would assume kungfu guy's are so skinny, is cuz of the consistent reps and little rest the next day?
It would be interesting to read the result's, of western physiology tested on a tarditional hardcore sifu.

[Merryprankster]

Doing non-resistance exercises and light resistance exercises doesn't do much for your muscle mass--pushups really won't make you "bigger," nor will crunches, forms, bag work, etc.

You might get stronger--not the same thing as bigger--and you'll receive diminishing returns. Being able to do more pushups or bag work won't increase your muscular strength after a certain period of time.

You're asking a complicated question with a deceptively simple answer:

Eat more of the right things, lift, rest as often and as long as you need to, and increase the resistance when it's too easy. Big compound movements like squat, bench, clean and press, and deads were good for overall strength and growth when I used to lift.

For growth, I found the old standard of 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps worked well, but I'm not genetically optimized for such things. I get stronger, but not a ton bigger.

That's one thing--genetics plays a role. A big one.

If you are interested in gaining STRENGTH, vice muscle mass, that's a different issue. Not mutually exclusive, but not the same end goal either....

[diego]

next bet
body wieghts, strap like three hundred pounds to your limbs then do forms, handstand pushups etc, that would bring cause for more protienfibers i would think?!.

[Serpent]

Jon. very wise indeed! Trouble is, I eat like a starving horse already! :(

Diego, MerryPrankster. I hear what you're saying. The thought of working the forms and the bags while carrying extra weight is actually not such a bad idea.

And the idea of constant training with the rest (I remember GDA's post) is a good point.

Now, I'm prepared to accept the genetics part. I'm never going to be Arnie, but I don't want to be either. I want to get optimal strength performance and a bit of bulk is always nice!

Merry, you said:



Eat more of the right things, lift, rest as often and as long as you need to, and increase the resistance when it's too easy. Big compound movements like squat, bench, clean and press, and deads were good for overall strength and growth when I used to lift.


Well, in place of lifting, what about training as mentioned above? Leg and ankle weights during my regular training?

Also, what are the right things? What's the best muscle building food? What's too much?

Thanks for you help all.

[Merryprankster]

Basically, just eat "well," you know--not too much fat or alcohol or fast food. That kind of thing. If you are looking for sources of protein, any lean protein will do fine. Nothing wrong with a steak or a burger every now and again :) Fruits, veggies, etc. Junk to a minimum. Try adding an extra meal or two of "clean food" and see how that helps.

"Too much," is when you start putting on weight that doesn't flex :)

Adding weights to your forms is really not going to provide the sort of resistance you need to get stronger. It will help some, but not the sort of thing you seem to be talking about. An example might be weighted bag gloves--you get faster so you hit harder, and your endurance is better because you are used to weighted gloves--but could you actually LIFT more weight? Not the same thing, really.

[diego]

but you read about Historical kungfu masters strapping wieghted vests and such and doing form, now i'm assuming, you build upto 300-500 pounds of body armor and do just one form twenty time's, would'nt that build you more potent then achieving a 800? pound benchpress?, i really don't know but i would imagine, watchyouknow....

[diego]

master the pushup, and you can only build up within that twohundred pound" or however you look at it, scientifically"
now add twenty pounds to that pushup with external wieght and i would imiagine more fibers would build, meaning you shoulder would grow oppossed to you pushing just your bodywieght.

[Merryprankster]

I suppose if you could strap 500 lbs of weight to yourself and still move properly sure. I'm going to bet you that that's exageration, however. Most of us can't squat 500, much less scamper about, even if it is evenly distributed.

And yeah--if you add weight to your body while you do push-ups, then you'll "get stronger." Might as well bench press... it's more or less the same sort of activity and easier to find/arrange than having somebody load you with a bunch of plates.

[ElPietro]

Sounds like a combination of thinks are keeping you skinny.

First of all you probably have a pretty fast metabolism and genetically speaking will have a difficult time putting on mass.

There is good advice in this thread for you. I don't know how against weight training you are but if you were willing to do it even for just one day a week you could just do a routine of benchpress, squat and deadlift and you will find that your strength will increase dramatically. Keep your reps between 6-12 per set.

If you are eating like a horse and not gaining weight than eat like 2 horses. :) You may be getting enough calories but not from the right ratios. Don't be afraid of fat. It won't make you fat, and will help you add muscle. Go buy a bottle of Udos oil or cod oil and take a tablespoon before bed. When your body gets a good supply of fat throughout the day it will metabolise fat instead of store it. Just try to avoid fat right after you train. Fat also aids in hormonal secretion. This peaks in the first few hours of sleep, so taking a tablespoon before bed will help with growth and also probably promote fat burning while you sleep. Optimally, consuming some slow digesting protein with the oil is best. Try some cottage cheese and add the oil in with it before bed and you have a nice muscle building meal.

Keep track of what you eat and see how many calories you are actually consuming. When you are eating clean it is easy to think you are eating more than you actually are.

If you provided more info such as weight, diet, caloric intake and training regime I'm sure all of us here could give you more detailed advice. Good Luck to you.

[Crazy dog]

Extreme amounts of weight on the body improves alot of things for example verticle leap. I have been wearing body weights all over my body for years. I had someone make me a 30lb chainmail vest. I only take it off to shower. I also where leg weights and arm weights. I am wanting to get more weight but I don't want it to stand out. Having any more weight then lets say 100 lbs. will begin to show through your clothes unless you are in the mountians doing private training I wouldn't suggest running around with that much weight. I wouldn't mind trying 500 lbs of weight to see how strong that would make me. I guess you would be able to jump three or four times as high. I would like that. If your in trouble jump. :D

[Loke]

I think you will also get bigger by strengthening your tendons and ligaments by for instance using "ballistic" excercises with weights. This will increase your functional strength as well.

[Serpent]

OK, here's some more info. (Thanks for the tips so far!)

I'm about 6'1", about 175lbs. I'm not exactly skinny, but I'm no gladiator! I train every day, more or less, 3 or 4 times a week training kung fu, combining a lot of techniques, lots of forms, bagwork, plyometrics, and the whole push up, situp, etc. thing. Then on the other days I also cycle and swim quite a lot, I rarely run cos I don't like the effect on my knees.

I eat a primarily vegetarian diet, with meat once or twice a week. I'm happy to eat more! What are good sources of muscle building protein?

I'm not against weights and lifting per se, it's just finding the time to do it! I don't have room at home and can't really afford the time or money to go to a gym.

Does that help?

[diego]

about tibet monks? who would strap hundred/s? of pounds of chian around thier body then run for day's?, i will try to remember the link.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Serpent
Other than additional weight training, what would you guys suggest for additional muscle and strength?

Stone Warrior maybe?

It is "other than additional weight training," and it is supposed to add muscle and strength.

It's hard work tho. Trust me, squatting and benching and pullups and deadlifts would be easier, and require less time :)

Either way, gaining weight is only achieved by eating more calories than you burn, so you gotta eat :)

IronFist

[Leonidas]

Fat doesn't make you fat?!?! Never heard of that before. Its funny, i always thought carbohydrates speed up your metabolism. I guess we're reading 2 completely different health books.

Serpent you knew the answer all along. You dont weight lift which is the fastest way to gain muscle but more importantly you dont eat enough protein. Meat protein is of course the most accesible, but i think any kind will do. Whey and Soy are good too. If you dont give you muscles anything to build with you can't really expect any muscle gains. Sorta like construction workers not having any material to build with.

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by Leonidas
Fat doesn't make you fat?!?! Never heard of that before. Its funny, i always thought carbohydrates speed up your metabolism.

If you have a diet of steady fat intake your body has no reason to crave fat. It's when you lower fat intake that your body clings to every existing fat store it has and tries to add to it. So yes consuming fat will actually help you reduce bodyfat levels. This is one of the foundations of all atkins type diets as well as ketogenic diets. Reduce carbs, and replace with fat, and cycle your carbs.

Food doesn't really speed up metabolism, but digesting food continuously throughout the day can. That is why breaking up your meals into more frequent but smaller portions is a good thing. You regularly eat so your body is expecting food so it has less need to store fat. I don't see how carbs can speed up metabolism any more than anything else. It does refuel your glycogen which is basically your body's highest octane fuel, aka energy so I can see how you may think that more fuel=increased metabolism.

[IronFist]

Fat doesn't make you fat?!?!

Don't forget, if you're an ectomorph, nothing makes you fat :)

(and by the same token, it's also hard to add a substantial (meaning a lot) amount of muscle mass)

You said you were an ectomorph, right? The only thing ectos have to worry about eat fat is cholesterol and heart attacks. Take me for example, during the semester I usually eat pizza for at least 2 meals a day (breakfast and dinner) and sometimes for lunch, too. I'm probably going to give myself a heart attack, but I'm always at 8-9% bf (knock on wood).

IronFist

[Leonidas]

Thats my biggest worry from swallowing gobs of extra fat. Bad enough most of the foods people eat is loaded with it, your now willingly drinking it? The heart man what about your heart. I atleast want a chance to live till 50. I actually heard about the small numerous meals but never that cod oil addition. It always involved eating plenty of complex carbohydrates to 'stoke' your metabolism, adding fuel to the flame so to speak. How do you go about building a better metabolism then if what you say is correct.

Eating too much of the wrong thing is exactly whats wrong with using meat to lose weight or fat for that matter. Why destroy one part of your body to get results for another. Thats like becoming a heroine addict because its a sure way to lose weight, but you'll fry your brain in the process.

[Leonidas]

Oh yea besides the heart thing, I believe i'm a mesomorph? (I have to look it up again) so i can't eat everything and the kitchen sink and not gain a pound. So thats another reason for me not to swallow cod liver oil before bed. That and the disgusting taste in your mouth it leaves.

[Paul]

Olive oil and fish fat are unsaturated fats they aren't bad for your heart the way that saturated fat is. Furthermore there have been studies done which claim fish oil (omega-3s) is actually good for your heart not bad.

[Leonidas]

Saturated or not, drinking fat for me equals extra pounds. There are betters ways of losing weight. Why not try no fat at all.

[Paul]

eating fat doesn't make you fat and eating no fat at all is not good for you. This is a myth propagated by all the junk food companies out there. Just because something has no fat in it, that doesn't mean it is better for you. calories are calories.

people generally get fat from eating too many calories. Fat does have 9 calories per gram vs. carbs and protein at 4. you do have to watch what you eat.

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by Leonidas
Saturated or not, drinking fat for me equals extra pounds. There are betters ways of losing weight. Why not try no fat at all.

What paul said was correct. Your body needs fat...if you go on a no fat diet you will maybe lose weight but your bodyfat levels will probably not drop...if anything they may increase. Saturated fat is bad for your heart but only in large quantities. Although I pretty much avoid them most of the time having a good clean fat source such as cod liver oil is vital. EFAs (essential fatty acids) are just that, essential. Omega 3 is the only truly critical EFA you need as your body can sythesize omega 6 and 9 from this. Cod liver oil is an excellent source of Omega 3.

Although this has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you lose weight. Consuming a good fat source is simply healthy eating. If you want to lose weight it is a simple function of eating less calories than maintainance. So if you have a tablespoon of oil before bed simply cut the appropriate amount of cals away from another meal...preferably carbs over protein. Can't remember what a tablespoon of cod oil is but prolly around 100-120 cals so nothing too difficult to cut out.

If you don't know how many calories you are consuming and what your bodies caloric maintainance level is you are probably nevver going to know exactly how much food you SHOULD be eating. So my biggest piece of advice would to track what you eat for a couple weeks and see at that level if you are losing, gaining or maintaining your weight.

Low fat diets are the fad ones from long ago, where ppl would starve themselves lose some weight and then gain it back plus more when they went off it. Truly it is a very bad choice diet wise.