Chum Kiu Bong Saos

[Roy D. Anthony]

How many do you do in your forms?

[AdrianUK]

Lets see if I can count

3 with crossed tan on left
3 with crossed tan on right
3 with stepping left
3 with stepping right

(WT Version)

12 if I am thinking straight though I am fairly junior at this !

Best Wishes

[Ish]

I agree with Adrian, 12...

[Nichiren]

I agree with Adrian, 12...

[Nat from UK]

I have a different number but i think i am counting differently rather than doing the form differently.

First turning section = 6, 3 left and 3 right

First stepping section = 6, 3 right hand and then 3 left hand on the way back.

Second stepping section = 12, 3 right hand and left hand at the same time whilst stepping one way and then the same on the way back. These are low (Dai sp) bong but we count them as bong sau's.

That totals 24 :D

Nat from UK

[David Peterson]

In the WSL version of the 'Cham Kiu', we do three 'Yi Bong' on each side in the first section (done as if in contact with the opponent's arms, using pivoting and relaxed energy), three 'Pau Bong' on each side in the second section (done as if out of contact, utilising explosive forward energy from a low to a high position, in conjunction with forward stepping), and three pairs of 'Dai Bong' in both directions in the third section of the form, in conjunction with forward stepping. This section has the more complex (or "multi-purpose") thinking taking place, in that we are in effect training two different ideas at the same time (indicative of the economy inherent in WC), with one of the 'Dai Bong' in each pair being practised as a defence against low-line attacks, while the other of the pair is preparing us to nulify a dragging or pinning attempt. It is very important to note that the footwork here applies to the second of the two applications, ie the dragging response. These 'Dai Bong' are done in such a way as to emphasise the elbow action, and as such, the hands remain very neutral while the elbow action is quite dynamic. With reference to the 'Pau Bong' in the second section, again the footwork is not what would be used when applying this technique (it is simply both convenient and economical to practise forward stepping ('Saam Gok Bo') at this point in the form, considering that traditionally, most students in the past would not be exposed to this footwork prior to learning 'Cham Kiu' in days gone by. In reality, we would more likely reverse the footwork when actually utilising the 'Pau Bong' in combat, whereby it assumes that a defensive reaction is required because the hands are down and contact doesn't exist. A "Golden Rule" in WSLWC is that if the hands are up when an attack commences, there is absolutely NO reason why we should be applying 'Bong Sau' (which is, by its nature, a defensive action) when a more aggressive attacking response is the best option. That is of course unless the technique we are applying is jammed up, in which case the 'Yi Bong' option from the first section would apply as a transitional move between one attack and another. Hope I haven't made this too confusing....it's a lot easier to explain in the flesh. Perhaps a further breakdown might be needed after more posts appear.
DMP

[churn-ging]

We also do 24 bong saos if you count each hand seperatly in the section with the double stepping bong saos.

I was just wondering if anyone on here has ever considered the bong sao not only as a defensive move, but also an ofensive move too?

I was taught that the bong sao could be used to jam up your opponents attack. Example would be when your opponent lap saos you, you could flip into a bong sao to kind of break the hold they have on your arm and step in at the same time to jam them up.

Does anyone else do this?

[reneritchie]

Hi Roy,

Dai Bong w/ Wu Sao during the turning, Kwai Bong (Bong Sao Kwai Choi) during the first set of steps, Double Pao Bong during the second set.

In addition to what's already mentioned, Bong is also good offensively (touch and break structure, or touch and Faat Ging into vulnerable areas)

Rgds,

RR

[anerlich]

24

[Wingman]

3 - turning bong sao left
3 - turning bong sao right

3 - stepping bong sao left
3 - stepping bong sao right

3 - double bong sao left (with stepping)
3 - double bong sao right (with stepping)

[AdrianUK]

I have been taught the double bong sau's as being double kao sau

so 12 Bongs
and 12 Kau's !

[jweir]

In the second stepping section of Chum Kiu, is it a double bong or a double kau? What are the applications of the technique?

I can't answer either question for certain, but if I had to guess, I would say kau. Bong sau is applied to a crossing force, so it doesn't seem possible to apply two at the same time. Obviously, not all double-handed movements in WC/WT/VT forms (ie: opening movement of SNT) are applied that way, so I could be wrong. It also seems unlikely to be a bong because the wrist is in front of the hip, not the center.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Roy D. Anthony
How many do you do in your forms? Only as many as are required. Not one more, not one less.

Matrix

[wtjoe]

We do 12 bong sau's (3 double tan left+right, 3 stepping left+right) We then do 6 stepping double cau sau's(low bong)

[Wingman]

What is the difference between bong sao and cao sao?

Anyway, in the stepping section of CK, double bong/cao sao's are performed. jweir was asking what are the application of these double bong/cau sao. IMHO, you don't do double bong/cao sao in a real fighting situation. The double bong/cao sao is performed only in the forms for the purpose of economy of motion. Both right and left bong/cau sao can be performed in one double bong/cau sao motion.

[Alpha Dog]

if they were, your arms would cross