Poon Kiu

[yutyeesam]

I apologize if this question was addressed before.

I am confused by what different lineages mean when they refer to Poon Kiu.
In Tat Mau Wong's school, they identify Poon Kiu as being kind of like an open handed gwa choy and/or a forearm block.

In Doc Fai Wong's school, they identify Poon Kiu as an inward circular palm motion that is used to redirect/create an opening.
Same with the Fong Yuk Shu lineage.

I know the Chuin Nau-Poon Kiu combination is used a lot in CLF, but these two definitions of Poon Kiu makes them quite different types of combinations.

Is that the bottom line, that the 2 lineages have differing definitions of what Poon Kiu is, or is there a common ground that I am missing?

Thanks for any insights,
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[k-no]

Well, this won't help much, but the way you describe the Poon Kiu for Doc Fai Wong is how the Buck Sing Gwoon does Poon Kiu also. I've seen Tat Mau Wong's students a fair bit in tournaments and events, now I'm fairly curious as I thought we'd have more in common with them than Doc Fai Wong's school.

k

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

Im from the Chan Family CLF & we use Poon Kiu (Circular Bridge Block) like u said the Doc Fai & Fong Yuk Shu lineage do & im sure the Lee Koon Hung & other CLF branches use it the same way. Poon Kiu is kind of hooked on to the opponents forearm/wrist & whipped in a inward then outward motion, which puts the opponent in a vulnerable position, either where his flung around & his back is facing u or he can't use his other arm etc... Poon Kiu is also used to get momentum by throwing the waist around with it to get power so u can follow thru with another technique, we use it like this a lot, its one of my favorite blocks especially when u follow thru with a Sow.

The Poon Kiu that u said Tat Mau Wong does, im not 100% sure but i think u might mean the Pek Choy, it's used like a Gwa but with the outer side of the bridge/forearm on the pinky finger side, the hand is usually in a Panther fist or just like u said open hand/palm. Im pretty sure i've heard it called Pek Choy but im not sure coz i know there is the other Pek Choy (Axe Fist) that's like the Sow but it's used like its name (Axe) & swung straight down.
Maybe some of the other CLF guys can help.

[CLFNole]

The poon kiu technique as taught be Lee Koon Hung is a circular block using the inner part of the forearm. It is used to trap an oppenents arm and is often followed with a sow choy or chin si choy (pek choy).

I think what Yutyeesam is referring to from Tat Wong's video is from a chin lay stance there is what is referred to in the Lee Koon Hung lineage as sheung poon kiu. This could also be translated as dat jeurng poon kiu. The right hand comes outward and down and then the left comes across in typical poon kiu fashion. It is kind of hard to explain. Frankly from much of the CLF I have seen few other branches utilize the sheung poon kiu.

Peace.

[yutyeesam]

Yeah, I believe that's it. What TMW does a lot in his forms is the combination: Chuin Nau-Poon Kiu-Kam-Yum Tsop.

The only form that I've seen him do his Chuin-Poon combo on the left side is in Ng Ying Kune.

Where it looks like he does the more common poon kiu are the following combos:
1. Chuin-his poon kiu-then the more common poon kiu-sol geuk (sweep)

2. Chuin-his poon kiu-then the more common poon kiu-step to the side-sao choy or pek choy

His version of Poon Kiu is called I think Fun Sao in the FYS lineage.

CLFNole, If you see some of DFW's or FYS's forms, you'll see them doing like 1-2 full circles with the Poon Kiu before attaching a Sao choy or something to the poon kiu. Do you have forms that do this? If so, could you tell me the name(s)?

Thanks, and thanks for all your guys' insights.
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[CLFNole]

No none of our forms have this. The double poon kiu with the same hand is also seen quite often in buk sing clf.

Peace.

P.S. We have a Fun Sow technique where the arms spread in 2 different directions with the lead hand blocking upward. Seen in Sui Moi Fah Kuen.

[Fu-Pow]

Like CLF Nole said. It is basically a double poon kiu. Although we also have another technqiue called poon kiu that doesn't much resemble this one.

1) From left Chun La, the left hand crosses in front blocking in circle down and outward.

2) As the left hand moves downward the right guard hand swings out becomes a down ward back hand strike.

(at this point the arms are point in exactly opposite directions)

2)Immediately after blocking down (1) the left hand circles back and then swings down from the ear as a downward palm block. The right hand circles back to the right ear and gears up for chaap chui.

The way it works is when the left is in front the right hand is back so the arms balance each other out and provide momentum for each other. Kind of like two bricks attached to a pole swinging at the end of ropes.

This is a really smooth and continous technique and the blocks and strikes come so fast it is really hard to defend against.

I use this technique as a set up for more powerful strikes.

The other poon kiu we do is more straight forward.

The arm swings out in a circle in front of the face. You can block either with the palm or the inside edge of the the arm. Then the arm swings down and out blocking the lower part of the body.

In application, you usually block using the "upper half" of the circle then trap the attacking arm between the palm and the inside of the wrist. Then you "throw" the arm out and down sending your opponent off balance.

That is only application, this is a really versatile technique and can be used for lots of applications.

Peace

[CLFNole]

Fu Pow:

The technique you described is generally referred to a poon kiu cum jeurng yum chop choy.

The right hand block could be called poon kiu or dat jeurng.
The left hand coming over is not really a poon kiu but rather cum juerng followed by chop choy.

Its funny because different sifus use different terminology for the same techniques. Many techniques have different names, the same way there are different ways to say the same thing in english.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

So the right hand is the Poon Kiu. Hmmmm....very interesting.

[DRAGON32]

I pratice CLF (Doc Fai Wong´s linage), we have three poon kiu:
- poon kiu of Fut San (GM Lau Bun)
- poon kiu of King Mui (GM Hou Yuen Chou)
- poon kiu of Komng Chow (GM Wong Gong)

[yutyeesam]

Right, and that's where I guess I was at a dissonance, because that right handed poon kiu seems weird to be called poon kiu, when the more common reference to poon kiu is a downward circular palm motion with the left.

It seems like all branches of CLF do the first thing that Fu-Pow described, but they call it something different. What do they call it in Buk Sing and Chan Family? I forget the Chinese name, but in the Fong Yuk Shu lineage, it translates to something like "destroying the flower".

Hmm. I wonder why all the other branches of CLF has the double (left handed) poon kiu and not the Hung Sing?

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[alecM]

yutyeesam,
I am of Fong Yuk Shu lineage and at my sifu's gwoon we do Poon Kiu as a circular bridge block more or less the way GOLDEN ARMOR describes it and not the inward circular palm motion. We also refer to Poon Kiu as Poon Sau.

[yutyeesam]

Hi AlecM,
Sorry, I'm not very good at writing descriptions. Yes, the way golden armor describes it is what I was talking about, regarding the more common understanding of poon kiu. I should not have said circular palm.

[CLFNole]

I think all CLF using poon kiu basically the same way it is a circular block used to open up your oppenent. Often you can get inside and bridge the gap with your openent.

The techique in real fighting will generally shortened compared to when doing your forms.

Peace.

[JAZA]

I'm not an expert but your answer sound me like poon kiu.
I also wnat to ask what are your descriptions of lap sao.