Concealed information in Wing Chun...

[monkey man]

Excuse me if this has been done before as this is my first post. After studying WC for a few years now, I have recently started cross-training in other styles and have wondered how much of the WC system has been editted since it's exposure to the West. Reading George Dillman's first book on pressure point fighting, he stated that the popular form of karate practised in the West is not the true system that was developed in Okinawa. There are certain technical distinctions in particular techniques, and the true meaning of the katas - i.e. visualisation of pressure point fighting - was completely lost in the 'new' system. I've heard that Yip Man was not particularly keen on letting one of China's national treasures to be given to the rest of the world, so how much of what we train today is 'true' Wing Chun? For example, was there originally Dim Mak in Wing Chun? Does anyone practise Dim Mak as part of the system (as opposed to a modified feature or addition)?

Thanks..(not sure how successful this thread will be as if there are such secrets and anyone here knows about them, I doubt they will surface now!).

[S.Teebas]

I have heard there is once you reach an advanced level.

[Ish]

i think its more that its to confusing and complicated for beguiners to understand, so certain things are not explained fully untill students have a good understanding of more basic things

[reneritchie]

Yip Man's system seems pretty much today what is was in Foshan, though for certain there are many (*many*) interpretations now, so individual mileage may vary.

When you look at the old stories of our WCK ancestors and their fights, you don't see them winning with any Dim Sut/Mak, but with overwhelming supriority of skill - the basics done to such a degree that an opponent could barely attack and usually not get beyond a move or two before being defeated.

Rgds,

RR

[Alpha Dog]

Instead of rushing through the forms and looking for "secret moves," students would be better off practicing the basics to perfection.

[monkey man]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
Instead of rushing through the forms and looking for "secret moves," students would be better off practicing the basics to perfection.

I'm not necessarily talking about 'secret moves' (although visualisation of dim mak moves in the forms may certainly be one thing that was omitted or kept 'secret' - if it was ever present at all, that is), but more about technical distinctions between the way a move is executed in many of the popular WC systems today, and the way it was done in China before it entered into the West. For example, Dillman talks about the structure of the sword hand and punch in karate, and how it was taught (deliberately) improperly to the first American practitioners after the post-war occupation of Japan. Sure, Wing Chun, like Karate, can be practical, but I'm interested if there are subtleties that were mis-taught but consequently became part of the system that we now take for granted. Maybe this is not the case, as Japan's history is very different from China's (with regards to martial arts and contact with the West), but I thought I'd bring the subject up as Dillman's discoveries surprised me and I wondered if the same could be the case for WC.

For example; do you practice tan sau with the thumb folded into the palm, or with the thumb straight but kept in line between the middle and fore finger (so as to avoid catching it still)? This is a subtlety in execution, but could be seen to have different effects between the two.

Cheers..

[Alpha Dog]

I wasn't talking about your post there, just making a general comment.

With respect to your point, however, I think it is more of a "taught right vs taught wrong" distinction you're making, not something concealed.

Some Sifus may deliberately conceal things from some students and share only with the "chosen few." I wouldn't waste any time in hoping to be one of the chosen ones of this kind of teacher, though.

On the other hand, some Sifus might wait until a student has something down "more or less right" then make adjustments -- to me this is fine, as it's really for the student's benefit (too much info up-front can frustrate).

It's up to the student to size up the Sifu and decide what's going on.

[monkey man]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
I wasn't talking about your post there, just making a general comment.

With respect to your point, however, I think it is more of a "taught right vs taught wrong" distinction you're making, not something concealed.

Some Sifus may deliberately conceal things from some students and share only with the "chosen few." I wouldn't waste any time in hoping to be one of the chosen ones of this kind of teacher, though.

On the other hand, some Sifus might wait until a student has something down "more or less right" then make adjustments -- to me this is fine, as it's really for the student's benefit (too much info up-front can frustrate).

It's up to the student to size up the Sifu and decide what's going on.

But if the system is incorrect at the roots (or rather at the inception of it's Western roots), then the teaching of a particular Sifu will not make much difference if what he/she has learned was 'incorrect' in the first place. Of course, teachers from the 'old school' (i.e. Yip Man's original students, or Chinese taught from other masters on the mainland) would (or rather, should) know if there are any technical distinctions. Like I said before however, the Chinese were (rightfully so) very suspicious of Westerners in Yip Man's time, and it is not impossible that secrets are still retained today for the sake of respect to the elders. Please do not mistake any of these ideas to be meant in a challenging or accusatory way - I just have a very objective interest in the matter with no real evidence that it should be true, other than it being seen to be the case in Dillman's discoveries of Okinawan Karate.

[monkey man]

Back to the tan sau question; how do you execute this particular move (where is the thumb placed)?


Thanks..

[reneritchie]

IMHO, there are too many WCK people who learned the art directly for people to get away with teaching it deliberately "watered down" for long in this day and age.

It's probably more of a concern about people teaching watered down MA in general *not-deliberately*. In the old days, there was sometimes *decades* between the generations, where people learned an art for 10, 20, 30 years before teaching. Now, we can find examples of people with 2-3 years teaching, who were taught by people with 2-3 years, who were taught by people with 2-3 years, so where before you might have had 1 generation in 10 years, now you can have 3-5.

They say both god and the devil are in the details, and it takes a while to learn all the details, even from a teacher who learned all the details. As an art goes forth and multiplies, those details can be lost.

There will always be prodigies, and geniuses who can work out technical details on their own, or even discover better methods, but in general, its something to consider.

Rgds,

RR

[Alpha Dog]

i keep it tucked in so that it can't be grabbed. not sure if i am "right" to do so but i don't like getting my thumbs twisted off.

And w/rt your concerns about corruptions in Wing Chun over time, I think it's a reasonable supposition that (motives aside) Wing Chun has indeed changed over the years. Nothing in my mind is wrong with trying to get back to the original stuff, if only because it worked!

[monkey man]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
i keep it tucked in so that it can't be grabbed. not sure if i am "right" to do so but i don't like getting my thumbs twisted off.


Okay..but the thumbs would be tucked in in both the examples I gave. The difference was whether the thumb is folded into the palm or if it is tucked in, but straight, close to the fore finger and middle finger. The difference between the two may have some effect on the pressure point located in the webbing between the fore finger and thumb (LI 4?) at the back of the hand and consequently the energy (and perhaps efficiency) of the move.

[Alpha Dog]

Folded

[monkey man]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
Folded

Cheers!



Do you know what I'm talking about though?

[Alpha Dog]

"For example; do you practice tan sau with the thumb folded into the palm, or with the thumb straight but kept in line between the middle and fore finger (so as to avoid catching it still)? This is a subtlety in execution, but could be seen to have different effects between the two."

Yes, I got your meaning. Thumb folded, not pointing to the bottom of the gap between index and middle finger. Why? I dunno. Except that I was taught this way and that the folded thumb feels more secure.

[sunkuen]

You better make sure that thumb is in good position, it could be the difference between winning and losing!!! Alpha dog makes a good point though, I would gladly rip a thumb off if given the chance (or at least break it).This goes for the rest of your digits as well.

[monkey man]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
"For example; do you practice tan sau with the thumb folded into the palm, or with the thumb straight but kept in line between the middle and fore finger (so as to avoid catching it still)? This is a subtlety in execution, but could be seen to have different effects between the two."

Yes, I got your meaning. Thumb folded, not pointing to the bottom of the gap between index and middle finger. Why? I dunno. Except that I was taught this way and that the folded thumb feels more secure.

Yes..but as an example of a technical distinction? Dillman corrects the Karate sword hand, which looks similar to the tan sau (the hand looks similar, that is, not the move), to have the thumb straight (but tucked in) rather than folded to the palm. Also the little finger is slightly tucked in as well. I think he says that this makes the hand structurally stronger and allows a pool of chi to form in the cupped hand. It also prevents a thumb compression to be applied from an opponent with any kind of knowledge of grappling or chi na. I learnt to fold my thumb into the palm when executing a tan sau as well, but maybe it's not the best way of performing the move (I don't know either way). I'm not suggesting that this particular move is an example of some kind of grand conspiracy, especially as I've brought these particular parallels together myself and am bound to be way off, but they may have some relevance to one another. As ReneRitchie suggested, this may be due to watering down or 'Chinese whispers' (-forgive the pun!), rather than any deliberate concealment.

Thanks..

[Alpha Dog]

All I know is guys like Whippinghand, whoops I mean Sunkuen (sorry!), eat thumbs if given the chance.

[monkey man]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
All I know is guys like Whippinghand, whoops I mean Sunkuen (sorry!), eat thumbs if given the chance.

Is that as a side dish or main course?

[sunkuen]

It all depends on how your presenting them!!!

[Alpha Dog]

"Song4 Ren2 Ba2 Miao2"

[sanchezero]

i think awareness of the thumb is very important, but more so you don't catch it on your opponents or your own limbs and rip it off. Even hanging your thumb in someone's shirt can fu<k you up pretty good.

I'm probably gonna get called a punk b!tch for this next bit, but...

I don't think there's much reason to worry about pressure points. I've never met anyone who could pull them off reliably even if I move S L O W L Y, and one of the guys I worked out with was 3rd deg in some karate and had been training the Dillman stuff for 3-4 yrs. While he'd try shiatsu I'd whack 'im in the brain bucket. Experiences like this have led to me not having a whole lotta interest in the complex pressure point fighting so popular now. I'll just stick to the basics - knockin people down and puttin dents in em. :)