Sambo vs. Bjj

[Yung Apprentice]

I am not familiar with ground grappling. But I am interested in it. N E who, I would like to compare Sambo with BJJ. Likes, differences. And if you could choose to train in either style which would you go with, and why? Thank you.

[AmerROSS]

Go to http://www.amerross.com/news.html

and scroll down to the link for:

"Russian Sambo: The Key to Unlock the Guard"
Published in
New Zealand Martial Art Magazine No. 27. September 1998
Australian Groundfighter Magazine Vol. 1 No. 4 Winter 1998

[MightyB]

What about Krav Magda? How does that compare to the other two as a grappling or combat art? I notice that Oleg Tarterov (sp?) seems to be promoting it.

[ewallace]

Krav does have GF but is primarily a striking art. Very effective too.

[Chris McKinley]

According to John Whitman, Krav Maga is getting most of its ground fighting techniques from BJJ. He also said that they don't have any ground stuff which is specifically Krav Maga.

[Dark Knight]

I see a lot of TKD schools are adding it to their classes. How long does it take to get certified?

[yenhoi]

I goto a Krav maga "training center" once a week to attend thier fight night. From the cirruriculum handouts there is no "ground fighting", but there is grappling and locking trapping, etc.

All the TKD schools around here are starting to offer Krav Maga. Actually its half and half, some are starting to offer Krav Maga, and others are adding some program called Westcoast Alliance or something or other - which i dont believe is anything similar to Krav maga (aka a 'realistic fullcontact quick system' or something or other.)

[Tigerstyle]

some basic Sambo info (http://www.rus-sambo.com/starters.html)
and
some basic BJJ info (http://martialarts.about.com/library/weekly/aa061499.htm)

From what (little) I understand, Sambo has more of an emphasis on leglocks, because chokes (I think neck submissions in general) are not allowed in sport Sambo competition. This probably results in an extensive set of leg locks/submissions.

BJJ competitions allow chokes (with and without gi), so they most likely have more chokes than Sambo would. BJJ also uses leg locks, but usually not on the scale of the typical Sambo guy.

This definition is not set in stone, however. My friend does BJJ, and he loves using leg locks so much, we all call him "The Duke of Leg Locks". (I think someone famous is already the "Prince of Leg Locks", and it would be a bit presumptuous calling him "King of Leg Locks" since he only started BJJ a couple of years ago :) )

Anyhoo, I hope that helped some.

[Yung Apprentice]

The place I was looking at that had Sambo, had a lot of chokes, without a gi though. I doubt it had some with a gi, but I could be wrong.

[Kristoffer]

Isn't Sambo more like wrestling? No gi's, and such? I've always viewed sambo as a more brutal form of wrestling or BJJ.

[Brad Souders]

Two types of sambo.
1. Sport Sambo: This tpye of style is very similar to judo except there are no chokes and you can apply straight leg locks. No twisting leg or arm locks are aloud. All gi

2. Combat Sambo: The better of the two imo. This allows all subs including neck cranks and is very key on learning leg locks. The only down fall is their lack of practicing positioning. Most forms of competition are no gi.

Two types of JJ in Brasil:
Gracie Jiu-Jitsu: This is the basic foundation on what Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu was based. Very good submissions and a large part is using the guard. Not as big on leg locks. All most all gi

BJJ: The newer form of GJJ. Very good positioning and training of takedowns. Not as big on the guard position. Most of the big names training this art have gone outside their art and filled in the missing peices. IMO BJJ is the most complete grappling art due to their extensive training of ground positions. Reason being no position no submission
Mostly without gi

[Black Jack]

Western catch wrestling is very much worth looking into as well, I think one of their motto's is to submit from any position, its pretty rough and tumble, the history is very interesting as well.

[Knifefighter]

I'm going to have to disagree with Brad on a few points here:

Sport Sambo (jacket wrestling) doesn't use a gi, just a jacket which is somewhat different from the ones used by BJJ players or Judoka.

Gracie Jiu Jitsu is just the name that Rorion trademarked in the United States. In Brazil it is all Jiu Jitsu. Using the guard or not using the guard is an individual preference and doesn't have much to do with "old" vs. "new". Roleta is almost an excusive guard player and has developed a host of new techs. Royler Gracie might be considered more of an "old" BJJ technician, even using "the forbidden guard pass" in competitions, but he probably has a stronger top game than guard game.

These days, there are four main styles of Jiu Jitsu being practiced in Brazil- Sport with gi, sport no-gi, vale tudo, and, for lack of a better label, vale tudo with a Chute Box slant.

Sport with a gi is the most popular in Brazil at this time, I believe. No gi is becoming more popular with the advent of the Abu Dhabi competition. Pure BJJ vale tudo is mostly ground-based. The newer vale tudo fighters such as Top Team have followed the lead of the Chute Box Academy by becoming proficient in Muay Thai, boxing, and wrestling and mixing these into their game.

[Brad Souders]

They use a kurka if you want to get techniqual but if i wrote that most people wouldn't know what it was. A kurka is a "jacket" where A: the belt loops in the kurka itself then back out again to try and help it from getting lose. B: the neck portion is tighter to help prevent chokes.

Just throwing my thoughts in though i'm fairly knew to grappling.

[AmerROSS]

Reflections of the General Culture:
The Russian Sambo Kurtka and the Japanese Judo Gi
It is interesting to recognize how the chosen uniform (and it’s evolution) impacts on the knowledge within a particular form of martial art. Typically, when indigenous martial traditions are imported to a foreign land, the uniform worn by practitioners is none other than the endemic clothing of peoples who forged the martial art form. As is said by the world leader of Russian Martial Art, General Alexander Retuinskih (President of the Russian Federation of Russian Martial Art, Vice-Chairman of the International Combat Sambo Commission for FIAS, and Deputy-Chairman of the Russian Combat Sambo Committee), “Every people have their own way of life and protect it in their own way. Every martial art form is a part of a general indigenous culture of that people.”
More often than not, the uniform of an art-form is kept as matter of tradition; respect paid to the culture that created the heritage. It is important, though, to realize the impact that the uniform can have upon the knowledge gained from study of a particular form of martial art.
A quick analogy is to take an activity that seems rather immersed in American society: Amateur Boxing. With the advent of protective head gear and heavily gloved fists, an emphasis on ‘head shots’ formed. It is much more difficult to deliver trauma to the body through layers of padding, but far more effective to send a barrage of brain-rattling impact to the opponent. Bare-knuckle and fisticuff pugilists rarely chose to attack the armor casing of the head with closed fist; too great was the pain and injury to the deployed hand. With bare-knuckles it is often considered more expedient and effective to attack the body, and the science of blows to the head far more precise, tactical, cautious, and infrequent. It can be argued that knowledge of bodily blows is lost when in the transition from bare-knuckle to amateur boxing.
It is often said, even in the word choice, that padded head and hands is more humane; that the padding “protects” the boxer from injury. Again, it can be argued that amateur boxing’s evolution of “head-hunting” is more traumatic due to the power of blows able to be delivered (as a result of padded hand and head) to the bone-encased brain. Regardless, this is an example of how equipment can impact on knowledge gained (or lost).
One of the eight directions of training in Russian Martial Art is the sport and combat training system called “SAMBO,” or SAMozashchita Bez Oruzhiya. a Russian acronym for “self-defense without weapons”. Like each of the 8 directions of training in Russian Martial Art, Sambo has it’s own unique accouterments with respect to its area of concentration. The Russian Sambo kurtki (or ‘jackets’) like all traditional martial art uniforms, such as the Judo Gi and Jujitsu Kimono reflect the indigenous clothing worn in the homeland of each respective discipline.
The Judo uniform, called ‘Gi’, represent the endemic clothing of Japan: what is called typically, Kimono. The Sambo kurtka (‘jacket’) reflects the clothing of the indigenous peoples of the lands now known as Russia. The kurtka is more snug than the Judo Gi and is stiched throughout the entire garment, much akin to “parachute-style” tailoring. This reflects the difference in general climate between Japan and Russia. Durable layers are necessary for survival in the typically colder climate of the lands of Russia. Historically limited resources and heavy labor require a thoroughly enduring stitch in Russian apparel.
The sleeves of the Sambo kurtka are longer, to the middle of the hand and are straight as opposed to the shorter bell-shaped Judo gi sleeves. Obviously again this is due to the typically colder climate of Russia. As a result of this difference, cuff grabs are frequent in Sambo (sometimes called the ‘tourniquet grab’, where only sleeve grabs are possible on Judo gi. This sleeve, longer than the gi and to the wrist, affords an understanding of how to manipulate the wrist in order to manipulate the elbow in order to manipulate the shoulder in order to manipulate the trunk affords. This is a different brand of knowledge, in depth and scope, than the Judo gi offers (only elbow-shoulder-trunk).
The kurtka also has epaulettes representing the style of clothing of the Slavs and other Eastern Europeans. Typically, this represents two characteristics. A heavy vest was usually worn over a longer sleeved garment, which helped develop the shoulder wrestling tactics prevalent in folk styles such as Georgian Chidoaba (sleeveless jacket wrestling). Moreover, the 18th, 19th and 20th century military uniforms often had buttressed shoulder boards. In combat or defense, these boards were often a target for manipulating the body; a secure place to grab. In Sambo, as a result, a great concentration of shoulder manipulation is gained by using the epaulettes, where this is not seen in Judo due to the absence of these unique handles.
As opposed to the belt in Judo gi that was used only to hold jacket together (a reflection of the Japanese Kimono), the belt of the Sambo kurtka is inserted into holes on the sides of the waist. Additionally, the Sambo belt is slim, malleable and heavily stitched. Depicting the flowing, loose indigenous Japanese clothing, grabbing the belt on a Judo gi rarely ensures hip control, but grabbing the belt on a Sambo kurtka secures the hips. This is again portrays the military and civilian garments of the period of Sambo’s incipience: possessing belts through loops of their short blouses. This characteristic in the kurtka affords a vast technical comprehension of the mechanics of pelvic manipulation; Sambo strategy resonates with this cauldron of knowledge.
Sambo kurtka are much shorter than Judo gi as well, which is possible considering that the belt will not slip over the garment due to fastened belt loops. Sambo kyrtki are stitched in circular patterns throughout the entire garment, and as a result are usually lighter weight than Judo gi, which being one piece must use heavier weight material. Tighter, shorter, light-weight layers of clothing were requisite to the climate of Russia, evidenced in the Sambo kurtka. So being, movements involving full bodily contortion and manipulation, more akin to the close contact of the jacket-less wrestling styles, are frequent in Sambo, since the kurtka rarely moves or slips when rough physical duress occurs between two practicioners.
It is important to state that this is not an anti-Judo analysis. Judo is known in Russia as Sambo’s Oriental sister, and there is an established bridge (on the tactical level) between Judo and Sambo. The goal of this article was to use the Judo uniform, as a mirror of the garment of Japan’s indigenous peoples, to contra-distinguish the Sambo uniform, as a mirror of the garment of Russia’s indigenous peoples. Too often Judo and Sambo are “mixed” and thrown into a fodder-pit under the auspices of a generic term - “grappling”. Without prior understanding of the cultural origin reflected in the apparel of each, the knowledge reservoir of each respective discipline may be obscured, or even worse, lost.

Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon

For more information go to http://www.sambo.net/aasf

[LEGEND]

Bjj is deals with positional dominance.
Sambo has Judo like throws and emphasis on leg lock submissions.
Both mix well.
Both compliment each other well.
Prince of Leg Locks is Reggie Fergeson.
King of Leg Locks is Lloyd Irvins.