What's a McKwoon?

[Shooter]

How is a McKwoon defined. What things should a person be wary of?

Thanks in advance...

[dezhen2001]

that's an interesting question - something i'd never heard of until i started going to forums and things. I dunno if it's just a US 'thing' or if it's over here in the UK as well...?

What i've understood abou tit thus far is basically this;

A school that has a questionable background and claims to be teaching something that is it blatantly not doing. Usually charging a very high amount of money to do so...

I'm sure others can help with this, i'm just a newbie :)

david

[Radhnoti]

You've just hit on almost everyone's favorite topic...I predict this thread will go four pages long.
I'll just add one...in my opinion the most valid.
A McKwoon is a school that teaches mostly young children, because that's where the "big money" is in martial arts.

[dezhen2001]

i'd really never thought of this concept until recently. Selling martial arts for big bucks... interesting

david

[KC Elbows]

Basically expanding on Shooter's description here. In order to make money, McKwoons stress quantity over quality, meaning as many students you can get=numbers of uniforms they must buy=number of test fees they must fork over=number of new belts they must buy.

Warning Signs(look for a combination, as some legitimate schools might resort to some of the following, although I'll spare you my opinion on THAT):

Contracts
High Fees

Must buy a uniform from the school(meaning an expensive uniform, not just a t-shirt or something)

Closed society, i.e., students purposefully kept from exposure to other martial arts in order to foster ignorance-often by so often speaking poorly of other arts that when students encounter such arts, they are disdainful)

No sparring, yet lots of talk

Japanese style, chinese name

Chinese style, japanese name

Sweaty fat guy with cigar runs school, constantly yelling "Don't make me get outta this chair!"


BTW, tell me what you understand abou tit again?:D

[ewallace]

See "New Website" thread for definition of mcKwoon.

[Dronak]

FWIW, I thought the term McKwoon or McDojo was a take-off of McDonalds meant to imply they're everywhere, but nothing especially good. As for signs, I'm sure others who are more familiar with MA than I am can give you some like KC Elbows did. The bit about "our style/techniques are too deadly for us to spar" is another indicator from what I understand.

[dezhen2001]

i understand a lot of things ;)
Are you making reference to my poort ouch typing skills sir :p Also, that was my post not Shooters, but never mind...

these are some of the things i've understood from reading that whole Temple school thingy. Someone asked about those guys over at Russbo.com and i gave them the link straight away!

I think it must be rela hard in this day and age to make money/be successful as well as teach the real skills. Good luck to the guys/gals who are doing it though :)

david

[Dark Knight]

Mcdojo's are looking to tell you anything to keep you around. They have limited knowledge and will lie to you to keep you there. Here are some examples

"TKD is one of the oldest arts"

"Ninjitsu is so deadly that we dont spar, we would kill each other"

"We do one punch one kill, so we dont need to throw or trap"

"Other schools are jealous of us and know we would dominate
tournaments, thats why we dont compete."

"No one knew what an armbar was until Helio Gracie created it"

"A Ju-Jitsu guy has never seen a round house kick, if you throw one he will not know what to do."

"The reason TKD has never won at UFC is because no one has kicked full power yet"

"If an Akido master went to UFC he would have everyone on their face with an arm control."

[shaolinboxer]

A McDojo is born when an intermediate student, or an expert in an intermediate dojo, leaves his/her school to start their own business...or when an expert opens too many schools to personally manage.

Not everything you learn there is bad, but in about a year or two you may run through the entire curriculum.

Worse than McDojos are cults, of which there are nearly as many as McDojos. Cults are characterized by simple classical induction techniques, such as giving you a nickname (and therefore new identity), to much focus on a personality rather than training, over use of catch phrases, demads on your personal finances early on in your training (if you have been a student at the dojo for 10 years, it is not unusual to be asked to kick in a donation if the school is in financial trouble, but this should always be limited to absolute necessity), too much stress placed on the togetherness of the group, and the necessity for everyone to be of one mind (as dictated by the leader).

McDojos are simply as waste of time. Cults are dangerous.

[JWTAYLOR]

The McKwoon really is just like fast food.

The bulk of what you are taking in is not what it claims to be.
They want your money more than they want you to get anything nourishing.
They think in terms of customers, not in terms of people.
They put the product out as fast as they can with little regard for quality.

The typical McKwoon customer is much like the typical McDonals customer. They all think what they've got is the real thing becuase they've never tasted anything authentic.
And they don't want to have to wait to long to get the Big Mac.

JWT

[dezhen2001]

I guess it's ok if an intermediate student opens a school under his Teacher (who checks regularly etc.), but breaking away to form your own organization when you're only 1/2 way through the system sucks big hairy @ss!

david

[Water Dragon]

In my opinion, A McDojo is a school that does not train their students in a way that increases self defense ability. There are a host of reasons for this, but it boils down to the fact that in the end, the students cannot do what they think/claim they can.

[rubthebuddha]

as far as contracts go, i don't mind them, but cults and mckwoons usually have specific attributes to theirs:

1. no way to get out. i've seen contracts that are binding to you no matter what, even in cases of physical inability to continue. that said, if you move, you're still paying for the duration of my contract. if you get your leg broken while sparring, you're still paying for the duration of your contract.

so beware of schools with no clauses that allow you to get out

2. large sums of money required at the beginning of your training. mcdojos don't seem to care that, when a student enrolls, they're starting a new change in their life. change does not happen immediately, and most people don't have wads of bills lying around they can just throw at a school. rather, most people require time to adapt their own life to the commitment -- be it scheduling, effort, money or whatever.

so if a school expects you to pay for a year's fees up front, be careful, even if they give you a free trial period of a month or so. and just flat refuse anyone like temple kung fu who expects you to pay up front for the next 84 years of training.

also, when making agreements or meeting with instructors regarding your status as a student, i've noticed a lot of the bad stories usually include a part when the student did not meet with just one instructor, but rather, three or four instructors. this is nothing more than an intimidation tactic, and in lots of cases, it works. ask if you can meet with the senior instructor privately -- it's his or her school. if he or she can't manage it by themself, why are they teaching?

wow. another point just came to mind. when you're meeting to discuss stuff like this, a good instructor will be ready to outline the goals of your training. perhaps a red sash is your immediate goal. then find out how long it will take to get you there, and if you can set that up with your instructor. or perhaps a better level of fitness is. that's a fair goal, too, and a good instructor darn well better be able to help on this one.

ok. that's enough for me for now. i'll probably add another 10 more ideas in the next day or so.

[mantis108]

McKwoon or McDojo are movie fu studio or martial sport mill just like the American dream factory and fast food culture. Menu and prices are fixed. It is in essence Hollywood puls McDonalds. Not fine art but will occupy the empty mind. Not good food but will fill hollow stomach. You will see these places offers all the hypes that are in vogue. Taebo, cardio Kickboxing, BJJ, New age Tai Chi, Wushu, etc...

Mantis108

[tri2bmt]

3 Words.
Temple Kung Fu.

[SifuAbel]

All of the above.

[MrBob]

General Warning signs:

If you see yellow belts with with 3 or 4 stripes be wary, if you see 10 year old black belts running around, don't walk RUN out the door!!

[ewallace]

If you are a grown adult, and there is a trophy that is taller than you are, chances are you can order a black belt "to go".

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think this thing about mckwoons, for me it would be those that really are more of a business then teaching the art regardless of the actule skill or trueness of the teaching.

I would say they have there place and like all things of this nature you find what you look for and expect.

The guy playing TC in the park might be a master that know one has heard of. But you just see him as an old man playing TC in the park until he is put on some mag. then suddenly he becomes a master? wasn't he a master before but you didn't have the eye to see it?

So for me I don’t see much wrong with em, and if you where in one and didn’t like it. Well then you learned what you didn’t like.

When people ask me about my TC, if they see some use for it then good if not also good they probably wouldn’t get it anyway. Again I think you find what you look for.

;)

[Shooter]

Thanks everyone. I started wondering about this when I read the "New Website" thread. I figured if it didn't result in anything conclusive, at least people would get to vent a little. :cool:

I'm completely unperturbed by the existence of schools whose practice doesn't effect me in a direct or harmful manner.

Thank you, leaf....that was golden. :)

[Budokan]

McKwoons and McDojos all offer instant gratification. Something that really doesn't dovetail well with real martial arts.