attn: Ford Prefect or Iron Fist

[ewallace]

I have a routine that I got from a link that tri2bmt posted. It is a full-body workout that I do with dumbells only. I plan on doing this particular routine for 8 weeks. I started last night and my whole body feels like jelly today (I don't know why but I love this feeling).

Based on what is below, do you see anything good, bad, ugly or wrong with this?

3 sets with 10 reps in each set.

Legs:
Lunge (Forward)
Lunge (Backward)
Squat
Step up
Straight-Back Straight-Leg Deadlift
Straight-Leg Deadlift
Single Leg Calf Raise

Back:
Bent-over Row
Lying Row

Deltoid (Side):
Lateral Raise
Lying Lateral Raise
Upright Row

Chest:
Bench Press
Decline Bench Press
Fly
Pullover

Deltoid (Front):
Arnold Press
Front Raise
Shoulder Press

Biceps:
Curl
Incline Curl
Barbell Curl

Triceps:
Incline Triceps Extension
Kickback
Lying Extension
One Arm Extension
Extension

Abdominals:
Crunch
Incline Crunch
Incline Hip Raise
45 degree Side Bend
Incline Twisting Crunch
Twisting Crunch

[Silumkid]

I know you didn't ask me but here's a couple things I would change...

There really isn't any difference between the forward and backward lunges....same muscles, same benefit. Why not just do 6 sets of stationary lunges? Also, 12 sets of legs seems a little excessive to me.

After back, I would do chest. Or you may also try chest then back. But I wouldn't do back, then shoulders, then chest. You want fresh delts in your chest presses. Also, a common mistake on here is that pullovers are for chest. It isn't really...it's a lat move. It's the same as straight arm pulldowns.

I also see no reason why you can't do abs first, but that's a preference thing, really. But honestly, these set schemes seem really excessive. Is this ONE exercise session? Those many exercises with three sets would probably take me three hours in the gym. WAY too long I think.

[ewallace]

No wonder my legs have been rendered pretty much useless today.

Yeah one exercise session. Three days a week. It took about an hour and a half. I only did 2 sets of 10 to start out. I didn't want to overdue it.

[Ford Prefect]

First, let me ask you what you want to get out of your weight training? (strength, size, etc)

As for the routine, I think it is plain "ugly". The volume is way too high. I couldn't possibly see even the most genetically gifted person on steroids being administered through an IV drip not experiencing symptoms of over-training with this thing. If your goal is body building, which this routine is purely for, then there are other much more effective ways of achieving the results. Let me know what your goals are, your current level of fitness is, and what equipment you have available to you and we can work from there. You can achieve quite a lot with a very limitted equipment and with a lot less time and pain than that routine.

[ewallace]

I am just getting back into shape. I am trying to lose my flab as well as gain strength and size. I am kind of that "genetic freak". I can get big pretty quickly. I have no desire to compete. I have to go easy with my right shoulder since I really smashed my clavicle a few years ago.

Really the only thing I have to work with are dumbells and a flat-to-incline bench. There are lat pulldown, shoulder press and preacher curl machines there too (apartment fitness center). I really would only like to work out on a M W F schedule.

[Loke]

The program that you listed seems awfully complicated to me...
But what the hell do I know... :D

L

[IronFist]

I have like NO time right now, but one thing I thought I'd add:

Chest:
Bench Press
Decline Bench Press
Fly
Pullover


Lose the decline bench press. It's really worthless and all you need is regular bench. Incline press is also pretty worthless as well. Also, pullovers don't work your chest at all, they work your lats.

Or is there another exercise that is also called "pullovers?"

Dude I gotta run, I'll come back with comments and read everyone's replies later tonight.

IronFist

[Ford Prefect]

Loosing flab and putting on muscle mass at the same time isn't the easiest thing in the world to do. Since you said you are a genetic freak, I'd focus strickly on losing fat and gaining strength until you reach a point where you want bulk up.

An excellent all around strength builder with limitted equipment would be the one-hand dumbell snatch for reps. This will hit your entire posterior chain, your core, shoulders, and forearms pretty well for strength endurance. It will also increase your explosiveness as well due to the ballistic nature of the lift. Not only that but you'll be sucking wind like a mad man, so it will definately increase what you have in the gas tank. To do them, position you body like you are about to deadlift and hold the dumbell in a hang between you legs. Thrust your hips forward straightening your legs. This will start the dumbell on its ascent. Next, just use your shoulder to keep the dumbell's momentum all the way up so you end up holding the dumbell overhead with a straight arm. bring it down and repeat. It should all be in one fluid motion.

A dumbell clean and press is another good exercise for full body strength and explosiveness. 3 sets of 12 would be a good place to start.

For more conventional strength training, you can also throw a bench press in there as well. It will increase your pressing strength a bit as well as add some superficial appeal. ;)

A pull-up bar for your place would be a good investment as well. Nothing can build and strengthen the back and biceps like pull-ups.

The routine would be something like say M,Tu,Th,Fri

Mon,Th -

Dumbell Snatch x 3 sets of ladders: Do 1 snatch with each hand, take a breath, do 2 snatches with each hand take two deep breaths, etc... Do this until you know you won't be able to complete the next set. Do not fail!! That is important. When you won't be able to complete the next set, drop back down to 1 and start over. Do 3 ladders like this, then rest a couple minutes, repeat, rest, repeat.

Pull-ups: I'm not sure how much pulling strength you have. Whatever your max is multiply that number by 4 and do those amount of pulls in the least amount of time possible. Say your max is 7. Do 30 pull-ups like 10 sets of 3 reps in 10 minutes. Keep adding when you can to eventually get to 10 sets of 10. You'll be a pulling machine by the end of a cycle like this. My max shot from 8 to 20+ after a couple months of doing this last summer.

Tu, Fri -

DB Clean and Press 3 x 12: Just make sure to leave a rep or two left in you. Again, you don't want to fail.

DB Bench Press 3 sets of ladders: 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3 rest, repeat, etc. You want to rest for the same minutes as the amount of reps you just did. ie 1 rep rest 1 min. Rest 3 minutes between sets of ladders. Use your 5RM max for weight.

Pistols (one leg squats) 3x3: For this one hold your hands out in front of you like a zombie, lift one leg in the air like a front kick, squat down butt to heel and back up. Do 3 sets of 3 for each leg. You may want to start holding onto to something for aid and balance. When your strength increases start holding a dumbell or weight plate in your hands for added resistance.

-------------------------

The dumbell snatches should really hack the fat away, and the other lifts will give you a good foundation to build from. After about 4 months of this, you could start adding some squats, regular deadlifts, and some other more conventional work to add maximal strength and size. Having a good foundation to build from is extremely important though.

For complete bodyweight workout ideas go to:

http://www.trainforstrength.com/index.shtml

http://www.webfects.com/hea/routine.htm

Some other good strength forums are:

http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/tpost.pl

http://pub17.ezboard.com/fanimalabilityanimalability

http://pub26.ezboard.com/boldschoolstrengthtraining70757

On of my favorite bodyweight workouts is this. You may want to give this a try as well as this tears the fat from your body:

A playground is the best bet for this as you need sprinting room and pars to do pull-ups from. Set up 6 cones. One at 10 yards, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60.

Do 20 hindu (shootfighter) squats and then 10 push-ups. Without any rest do 20 more squats and 12 push-ups. Do this until you get to 20 squats and 20 push-ups.

Immediately sprint out to the first cone and back and do 5 pull-ups. rest 20 seconds and sprint to the next cone and back and do 5 more pull-ups. Do this until you've sprinted out to the last cone and back and do 5 pulls after each sprint.

Reverse what you initially did. ie 20 squats/20 push-ups, 20 squats/18 push-ups.... down to 20 squats/10 push-ups. Again, no rest at all!

Reverse the sprints as well. ie sprint to the last cone and back/5 pulls and rest 20 seconds, etc etc.

Make sure you have water and a puke bucket handy. I nailed two of my friends with this one. hehehe.


Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any more questions. Train hard!

[ewallace]

Thanks. I like #1 on webfects. I would start today if I wasn't so daamn sore from that hellish workout on wednesday.

[Kempo Guy]

Ford Perfect,

The workout you described is very similar to what I do! I do one-arm snatches, swings, C & J and the Military Press (different variations). Another nasty one is the "windmill". In addition to these, I've been doing ladders of pull-ups and pistols as well.

I lost quite a bit of weight (read flab) doing the excercises you describe. I highly recommend these types of workouts.

KG

[ewallace]

KG, care to share exactly how much weight you lost?

[Kempo Guy]

I did high rep ballistic workout with dumbells (i.e. snatches, C&J and swings) and later graduated to using Kettlebells, which I feel provided a better workout.

I lost about 15 - 20 lbs of flab and gained probably around 5lbs in muscle. No more love handles! :D

These days I still do the KB's (Kettlebells) but are doing more presses and stuff for strength rather than really high rep ballistics.

If you're interested in these types of excercises I suggest checking out the book or video called "Russian Kettlebell Challenge" by Pavel Tsatsouline.

KG

[ewallace]

KG - Cool. Thats about what I'm lookin to lose. Maybe more.

Any one know anything about the easychin chin-up bar :
http://www.easychin.com/

I am thinking about something like this for my apartment.

[Kempo Guy]

ewallace,
I think it would be easy to lose more weight by doing the RKC workout.

That chinup bar looks like a good idea. Then if you get some dumbells (and a KB if you can afford it), you'd be set!

KG

[ewallace]

Actually I think I am just going to get a membership to Balley's, order Tae Bo and the bun and thigh rocker. Then I can be in-style, in-shape and be able to kick ass too. :)

[Kempo Guy]

Don't be dissin' Tae Bo. That's my style! :D

[ewallace]

That rkc looks like a good workout. I am not sure what weight I would need. I really would only have $$ for one kb and the video. I have been doing most of my workouts with 20-30 lb dumbells. I was thinking the 18lb might be the best for now. Am I wrong?

[Kempo Guy]

ewallace,

I would suggest going with the 1 pood (16kg/36lb) along with the RKC video (I don't recommend you getting the book to start). I really think the 18lb. is going to be too light for you, especially doing the ballistic workouts. Also, Pavel recommends no more than five reps per set on presses, so you probably can manage with a 36lb kb. If you feel it's too heavy as may be the case when working on your presses and such, just work some of the exercises with the db's.

I rarely workout with weights, and don't consider myself all that strong but I went ahead and bought the 1 pood KB and I think it's a good buy. I'm hoping to upgrade to the 1 1/2 pood KB soon. :)

If you have more questions, feel free to ask or send me a p/m.

KG

[ewallace]

I read more into the site and realized that too. I will go with the 1 pood.

So this really isn't a bs workout I take it. I read the testimonials and they sound good. Then again anytime I see testimonials I get very very suspicious.

[Kempo Guy]

ewallace,

It definitely is not a bs workout! I guarantee that if you do the workout 4 - 6 days with varying intensity (never do the exact same workout 2 days in a row) you'll lose some serious weight.

I didn't really believe in the testimonials either, but a buddy of mine had been doing the RKC workout so I decided to get the video just to see what it was all about. Tried the excercises and loved them. I didn't start doing these to necessarily lose weight, but rather to gain more 'functional' strength. Losing weight was a side-benefit! If you do the workout in a circuit type fashion, you'll be sucking wind in no time! Most of my workouts are around 15 - 30 minutes, and on occasion go up to a max of 45 minutes.

As we all other exercise routines, start slow and ease your way into it.

KG

[ewallace]

I'm going to give it a shot as soon as I get the cash. Thanks for the info KG.

[Ford Prefect]

I second that. I'm on my 2nd week of KB's after ditching them for a while, and they really do nail your posterior chain and your core. I still think that you'll need at least some pull-ups to round out the program. I like to mix them with other BWE's as well.

[ewallace]

BTW Ford, tonight I'm going to start that routine you suggested back on page 1 of this thread. I'll keep on that until I get the KBs. Thanks for your help/info too.

[Kempo Guy]

ewallace,

No problem. Glad I could help. Let me know when you get the RKC tape! Perhaps we could swap routines or something.

KG

[ghostdragon]

Ewallace,

If I could chime in briefly... to save money, go to www.fractionalplates.com and get one of their kettlebells - they're adjustable and will save you $$. I just got mine and love it - I can use whatever weight I want by adding/removing plates. That, and you don't have to pay shipping for a 36/53/72 KB.

Also, thanks to the astute observational skills of my 11 year old daughter, I can also use it as an ab wheel. Now, all I have to do is build the pullup/dip station my wife thought of, and I'm set.

****, I'm glad she has smart genes. :)

[Kempo Guy]

Ghostdragon,

I've used the Ironhorse Kettlebells in the past. You are right, they work pretty good. BUT, I feel the KB's from dragondoor is better (I know, they are more expensive :rolleyes: )

BUT, I feel that especially the thicker handles of the DD KB's will help in increasing grip strength. They also feel a little different than the IH KB's. But, if you're on a budget and don't want to invest in KB's of different weights it's a great option. :D

KG

[ghostdragon]

As far as the handles go, I'm thickening mine up with tape to make a difference. I'm also happily grinding away on a gripper from IronMind, thanks to all of the recommendations from people on the board. I would strongly recommend people to look into the Captains of Crush grippers if they want to improve their grip strength. They're only $19.95 and are a cast-iron b1tch to close. I'm just about to order the #2.

Also, for some reason DD can't/won't ship their KB's to Canada. :(

[Kempo Guy]

Thickening up the grip with tape is probably a good idea. I was actually surprised at how thick the grip was on the DD KB.

Glad to hear those grippers from Ironmind work. I've been thinking about aquiring those.

Bummer about the DD KB's to Canada... :( I heard about that from a buddy of mine in Toronto. He had them shipped to Buffalo, went over and picked them up...

KG

[IronFist]

I think Pavel recommends to always start with the 1 pood KB, no matter how strong you are.

IronFist

[Kempo Guy]

Iron Fist,

I think you're right.
Takes a little while to get used to some of those exercises, and you definitely don't want to go too heavy...

KG

[ewallace]

Well, I did ladders of dumbell snatches last night. **** me. I feel it all over. What a great feeling. I could barely stand up straight walking home from the gym. I feel about the same way (not as sore) as I did after that hellacious workout on the first post in this thread. That is what I call Effective.

[ghostdragon]

Ford or Iron,

I'm trying to put together a routine and I wanted your opinions on it:

1 Handed KB snatch ladders or 1 hand clean and press ladders
3x3 Pistols (to start)
The pushup scheme from the 100 pushup workout or dip ladders
Pullup ladders (varying grips day to day)

While this is a simple routine, do you think it would be too much? I'm going to be doing this 4 days a week - Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Sunday (Kung Fu other days).

Thanks...

[IronFist]

Originally posted by ghostdragon
Ford or Iron,

I'm trying to put together a routine and I wanted your opinions on it:

1 Handed KB snatch ladders or 1 hand clean and press ladders
3x3 Pistols (to start)
The pushup scheme from the 100 pushup workout or dip ladders
Pullup ladders (varying grips day to day)

While this is a simple routine, do you think it would be too much? I'm going to be doing this 4 days a week - Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Sunday (Kung Fu other days).

Thanks...

Hey ghostdragon,

For your leg work, I would recommend starting with the pistols because after a bunch of KB ladders you might not be able to bust out 3x3 pistols. (Maybe you meant you were going to start with the pistols, but I was a little confused by what you wrote so I thought I'd mention it anyway).

For chest/tri/shoulders, the pushup routine would be very good. You might want to incorporate various other things in occassionally just for variety, such as handstand pushups (against a wall if you can't do a regular handstand) to target the front delts more, or explosive (jumping) pushups where you push so hard that you leave the ground (like clapping pushups without the clap, because if you go to clap and don't finish it in time you could land on the edge of your hands and mess up your wrists, so just leave the clap out). If you're going to do explosive pushups, keep the reps below 5 and give yourself at least a minute between sets. Also, do these first (for chest exercises) because movements like this demand that you be fresh while you do them for them to be effective.

Pullups ladders with varying grips sounds good for back and biceps. If you're doing the KB snatches they will also help your back. Just note however that if one day you do a particularly hard set of snatches you might be a little extra fatigued when you do pullups.

The routine you described sounds very solid, just remember the basics, like not training when you're sore, etc.

Just ask if you have any more questions :)

IronFist

[ghostdragon]

Thanks Iron for the suggestions, I appreciate it.

I'm going to do this routine for a couple of months (or until I can afford a bench, bar and some oly weights for home) to increase my muscular endurance. Once I have the other gear, I'm going to cycle between muscular endurance workouts and PTP style workouts every two weeks. I have a couple of goals in mind:

100 continuous pushups
1 arm pullups (either arm)

I have quite a challenge in front of me: I weigh 245... the one arm pullups are going to be a tough one.

Are you familiar with the Russian ranking system for KB lifts on dragondoor.com? How does one qualify in the different categories? There are numbers mentioned, but not what they mean. Is it one arm snatches for reps?

Also, I remember reading (I think) that you're using the IronMind grippers. What kind of training schedule/routine do you use?

Thanks!

[Ford Prefect]

Ghost,

I pretty much agree with Iron. That's a solid routine and all you'd need is to add an exrecise or two every once in a while. I'd knock it down to 3 days/week to get your body used to it because that is a lot of volume. Also, if your goal is one-arm pull-ups, then start them now.

[Kempo Guy]

FWIW, it was suggested to me by Pavel, to not do KB presses if you are doing a lot of push-ups. I don't know if the KB Clean & Press qualify in that category...

KG

[ewallace]

I posted this in another thread, but does anyone know of any links to a site(s) that shows how to correctly do a db snatch and/or db clean and press. I want to make sure I am not doing them incorrectly. Today my body is telling my I sure did something right, but I don't want to risk injury for being naive.

[Kempo Guy]

ewallace,

Go to dragondoor.com, then to the articles section. There's descriptions at least and some pictures in a couple of the articles.
You could also try cbass.com, I believe Mr. Bass has an article where he explains the techniques.

Hope this helps,

KG

[ewallace]

Thanks KG. BTW, that was an outstanding article on pistols in fa jing's thread. I am opening up to a whole new world now.

[Kempo Guy]

ewallace,
The article by Mike Mahler is really good. Plus there's pictures. :D
I've also been using Steve Maxwell's deck squats program, which you can find at Dragon door as well.

KG

[ewallace]

KG, I can't send you a P/M. Do you have that option disabled?

Is it normal to be sore for three frickin days after doing dumbell snatches for the first time? Geezus. The first two days it was mainly my back. Yesterday and today my legs are still a little bit sore. Either they are working areas I haven't been or I am doing them very wrong.

BTW, when doing db snatches, do the arms pretty much remain straight(not locked) and kind of arc to the top as the rest of your body rises or is it supposed to be done more as a press?

Also, on the clean and press, do you guys start from the floor with each clean?

[Kempo Guy]

ewallace,

My email address is kempoguy@lycos.com. I guess I don't have the pm option on...? I'll have to double check.

I'm constantly sore so I'm not sure. ;) Pavel recommends that you do these types of exercises for 4 - 6 days a week as this will make you less sore. I took this advice and wasn't as sore as I expected. You just need to make sure you switch your rep schemes. The legs (inside the thighs) was where I first felt it when starting with snatches and swings. If your back gets too sore, maybe alternate the exercises with one arm swings, as it's a little easier on your body. Just do more sets!

When doing snatches, you can keep your arm fairly straight and swing the arm up and flick your wrist at the top (above your head). OR you can keep it closer to your body and then flick it. As you start using heavier weights you'll probably start to adapt to the latter, which is a movement that's similar to the press.

On the Clean and Press, I generally start with the weight hanging off the floor. When doing circuit, I'll swing the KB between my legs slightly between reps, which is more of a ballistic movement. Other times I do it static (with the KB hanging), but never off the floor.

Hope this helps,
KG

[ewallace]

Thanks. I'm doing it right then. I will have to work up to 4-6 days a week. I've been told it's not a very bright idea to do it when you are really sore.

Could you describe db swings?


Note:
I don't have the RKC video yet. Was planning to get it this week, but since I busted a tooth and saw the dentist today, it may have to wait another couple weeks.

[Kempo Guy]

ewallace,

Well, as long as you vary the amount of reps/sets everyday you can do snatches and swings pretty much everyday. I wouldn't do the presses everyday though.

As for swings, with the arm straight you swing the KB/DB between the legs (bend the legs while doing this) and then up to about hip/waist level (for starters) using the muscles of the back and the legs. Also, on the upswing you want to thrust your hips forwards (which will also straighten your legs), which will drive the weight forward/up. This is a great transitionary exercise to doing snatches as the movements are similar. As you start getting more used to this movement, you can start swinging the weight higher to shoulder level or above the head.
Don't know if this explanation helps... (I really urge you to get the RKC video sometime in the future so you can see the movements properly).

I switch up the swings and snatches on a regular basis (pretty much every other day) along with cleans and C&J's. I also do different presses, but do these at the beginning of every other workout.

Hope this helps,

KG

[ewallace]

I've read that a lot of people recommend the video and the book. Any truth to this?

I do plan on buying the video in a week or so. Is DD the only place to buy it?

[Kempo Guy]

ewallace,

I do suggest getting both the video and the book. But, if you can only afford one or the other the video would be more important. The reason is, it is hard to get the idea of certain movements from a book. I believe Pavel also recommends getting the video first. This would be true with all of his material (imho).

I believe Amazon.com sells Pavel's books, I'm not sure about his videos though. I ordered mine from DD.

FWIW, I've ordered several of Pavel's videos (and a couple of books) from DD and have not had any problems.

KG

[Rolling Elbow]

Easygym lol..it is the door gym repackaged with a new angle of attack. Granted i like that design better, i still found no real use for my door gym BECAUSE your frame cannot be the flimsy kind found in most homes (around my area anyway) You need a solid door frame or else you will hear the tiny nails being pulled out and the wood along the top of the frame graoning...granted it is doable BUT the worry is not worth the effort!

How about Pilates? Finally convinced my girl to get into it .. i hope it works like they say it does...she's got to get moving!