pak mei and wing chun

[moebius]

ok, this question goes mainly to those of you who have trained / are still training both styles:

what are the differences between pak mei and wing chun? I've never seen pak mei in action, actually the only things I know about it are that
a) its creator was sent to exile by the shaolin monks for killing a few of his shaolin brothers with stlye.
b) that my sijo, wong shun leung, won all of his (> 60) "street" fights but one, which was against a pak mei fighter (the fight ended in a draw).

since both styles a southern, are there similar techniques? is pak mei an infighting system like wing chun?

thanks

[tnwingtsun]

There are many differances,one of the most notable is power generation,I went from Bai Mei to Wingstun and had to re-think my body into the WT way of doing things(Not saying that WT is better!).If you are a WT/WC man then I'll assume that you generate power through proper footwork combined,foward motion,thrusting(in WT we lock out the arms on exention,which is not bad because its very hard to catch our arms),also we extend at every joint starting at the shoulder.Yip Man said that each joint adds to the power,like a snake that strikes is just a bunch of linked joints,a chain reaction takes place.Ok,now Bai Mei takes that idea and applies the whole body(not saying Bai Mei is better!)Bai Mei tourques,floats,sinks,swallows,spits ect.Also Bai Mai uses a type of "Tan Sao"and "Bil Jee" as expressed in the "Jek Bo" form.Also Bai Mei has its own "Bong Sao" which is used in a differant way than WT/WC oh don't want to leave out Vingtsun.So I would say from studying both and far from being an expert in either, power generation is the big differance,alot of concepts are the same.Don't let anyone fool ya WT/WC has Fa-jing,most just don't show ya until years of study,Bai Mai emphasizes this from the beginning,hope I have been a little bit of help,there is much more but my wife just got home and I have too go,lol

[fiercest tiger]

never seen it! can you descibe it for me, does it have another name??

luk ging six powers through the joints, to create ging (good body mechanics). with breathing and fao chum tung to.

:)

i seen a tape of wong sheung leung he has ging, it was made in the 70's

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[tnwingtsun]

FT,I wanted to get it right before my reply,I just watched Kwong Man Fong's tape and realized that the set they call "Sub Jee Kuen" is the set we call "flower",he(and his about to have a heart attack student) has left many things out,why I don't know,perhaps not to give this knowledge away to the public,these are some I noticed missing.
Double Eagle Claw
Double Tiger Claw
Bong Sao-followed by a heavy open back hand
Not trying to down his student,he just left out more than his sifu and sacrficed speed for focus,or perhaps he was told to be misleading,I'll make sure I get you a tape of the "Sub Jee" I learned,we once put on a demo,there were Japanese TV crews there,Dr.Wong did "Flower" and mixed it all up into something that it was not.
When I asked him,hmmm, Dr.Wong,that kind off looked flower,but you added and took away alot.
His reply was,"I didn't want the Japanese too see the real thing,my people suffered enough at their hands,my father was a General and fought against them"
Peace

[fiercest tiger]

hi,
my sifu was the australian traditionl chinese martial arts association president and founder, and the japan chinese kung fu association paid there respect at our kwoon, with some of the old master, from bak mei, chow gar, clf etc (they were my sifu's friends). the japanese brought gifts and demoed for him, i was sitting beside him and he turned his back to them and gave all there gifts away to other people (i got a hand-painted samurai silk picture) :D it was strange, but i kind of understand what he was going through. he was in the war and some of his students and friends were killed, he just didnt like the japanese there in his school. i had never seen my sifu act like that before, he had a pretty scary look in his eyes.

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[moebius]

fiercest tiger: are you talking about wong shun leung or leung sheung?

Leung Sheung: Yip Man's first pupil in hongkong, and the first one that opened his own school. WT's leung ting first trained under him before he learned from yip man for a little less than a year.

Wong Shun Leung: the king of beimo (challenge fight I think), who was bruce lee's teacher and mentor.

what kind of video was it? "the science of infighting"? in that case, it was wong shun leung.

more info: www.wongshunleung.com (http://www.wongshunleung.com)

[MoQ]

Most Bak Mei stories are BS and started out of spite/jealousy/ShawBrosStudios...

They are both south hand but BM is another animal and, without using too may superlatives, way beyond the scope of WC... I found WC an apt stepping stone, but it just allowed me to see what I hadn't previously understood and it was left behind with no remorse...

[kull]

Bak Mei has bong sau?...hmmm, that is interesting.

I agree with MoQ on this. My personal opinion, is that it bak mei has a more broader approach to combat than WT.

[tnwingtsun]

Now to get technical the bong sao in Bai Mai is in one of the external sets that we call "flower",the one Kwong in his video calls "Sub jee kuen"(what does that mean in chinese kull?)He does not do the bong sao in his form as I was taught,the Bai Mei bong sao I learned was a mid to low from the side bong sao as opposed to the front on mid to high bong sao I learned in Wingtsun,that being said I find it interesting that Leung Sheung was a Bai Mei Sifu before his encounter with Yip Man,after that his student,his Wing Chun looks different from other Wing Chun,Leung Ting who was his student has definately had some kind of influnce from some other than Yip Man's Wing Chun on him,its my theory(and it might sound crazy) that Bai Mei stayed with Leung Sheung even after he became Yip's student,what do they say?,you can take the man away from the Bai Mei but you can't take the Bai Mei away from the man.I'm sure Leung Sheung was shunned by the Bai Mei community because he switched but I think his Bai Mei influnced Leung Ting's Wing Chun latter to be called Vingtsun then end up as Wingtsun,crazy theory? maybe so but I'm not the only one(the others are in hiding,lol).Bai Mei influnced my Wingtsun but alot of Bai Mei theorys "clicked" when I started studying Wingtsun,maybe it was because I'm older now,I like them both and think they go well together like a symphony,others can have only one without spitting out the other,I feel as both arts were my parents.I'm sure some might cry blaspheme! at my crazy rantings but I can see the connection even though they are both different.I just can't wait for my back to heal up so I can start working out again and stop being the armchair MA I've become,again just my theory and a few others,no offense intended,I've already rattled a few BJJ guys but kissed and made up.

[fiercest tiger]

:D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[MoQ]

hmmm... in the "small cross" set from that stupid Green Dragon group in Ohio, they do one of those lower wing arm type moves. But this cr@p is not authentic Bak Mei by any stretch of the imagination...

[tnwingtsun]

Those fruit bats at the green dragon are light years from me.
Thanks FT for translating that for me because Sub jee is my BABY!!,it was taught to me as SHORT CROSS (sorry 4 da caps),but if there was any set I trained the hardest in, it was Short Cross,over and over again,fast,slow,jing,no jing,soft,hard,spitting,well you get the pic.I'm confused why Kwong would call "flower" sub jee???,I'm going to get to the bottom of this because I worked my arse off on this set and am ****ed proud of it!,well I once used to flow in it like the wind,now I'm getting old,lol

[MoQ]

tn- sorry, but I'd just realized I had seen that low wing arm somewhere. I wasn't drawing any connection...;)

"fruit bats"? LOL!!!

[kull]

What is the full name of form in bak mei you called "flower"?

I don't remember any move with the name of bong sao in bak mei. It comes b4 "soft backhand" in the form? Are u sure not confusing with WT?

[This message was edited by kull on 03-03-01 at 12:49 PM.]

[tnwingtsun]

it is in the Bai Mei "flower set" not WT,I'll get more info and get back with ya Kull , facing 45 deg.Double tiger calw(right high),left foot(rear)shifts to right(pivoting your facing to 90 deg.) bringing right arm into bong sao,left hand slaps right inside elbow in a sort of wu sao trap,wu sao turns to tiger claw clearing path for heavy open back hand,no way to confuse this with WT,practiced this set many times also

[MoQ]

okay, is this the bao jhang rolling elbow? This doesn't sound like boang sau at all certainly not in usage...

[fiercest tiger]

is the move before it sut choy(sp) right pheonix eye punch? fullstep pa ying jerng- is the bong sao in between this, as your transition?

if its the same as sup jee, kwongs version that is, my sup jee is way different. :D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[tnwingtsun]

In his,he salutes,grabs,punches,steps foward with right foot and expands,then does a sort of rolling elbow.Now this rolling elbow is where my sub jee has its low bong sao,BUT,my sub jee is different in many ways before and after this happens,but he does do a soft/heavy backhand after his rolling elbow,but there are so many other things left out,is this the way he teaches his students?,like to hear from one of his students if this is just disinformation,mine is different,and this is not the "short cross set" I learned,his sub jee kind of looks like "Flower" set.
Good thing for slow motion on VCRs

[wisdom mind]

he teaches sub jee as is on the video tape...then leaves it up to the student to mimick moves. it takes many years to learn from Kwong Sifu and his kwoon is family/club like. traditional. as time passes, techniques are shown with application, etc. its all in time with Kwong Sifu. as he says, many quit few stay.

[KMF students]

We are students of Sifu Kwong Man Fong. Until now we have refrained from posting, since we believe everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, we believe a few of your comments are misguided; we are posting to voice our views on them.


Regarding your comments about the way sub jee was performed on our videotape:

Different instructors of the same style choose different aspects of the system to emphasize; our Sifu has chosen speed and power. This is given the fact that most combatants in a fight will be trying to move faster than their opponent, strike harder and avoid being hit.

As far as my classmate having a heart attack, it’s highly unlikely since one must be in suburb physical condition to move at that pace and intensity.


Regarding your comments about missing techniques in sub jee.

You seem to have a preconceived notion that movements were left out from our demonstration of sub jee. How do you know that movements weren’t added to your version of sub jee?

Variations in forms and techniques are common in different schools of the same style. Look at any master’s demo with different schools doing the same style. We have seen forms from students of Cheung Bing Lam, Chan Dor, and a few other schools, although the forms are approximately the same, there are some variations among the techniques.

When a classmate of yours came for a visit in the late ‘90’s, he performed nine-step push. It was different from the way we perform it, but this does in no way mean one is better than the other

We wish well in your training, and we look forward to further communication between our schools.


Our website has moved, the new address is: [URL=http://www.whiteeyebrowpakmeikungfu.homestead.com/]

[kull]

I like to say that i have yet to see any form from bak mei performed exactly same.

Although, 9 step push seems to be relatively uniformed from different teachers, in comparison to the other forms in bai mei.

[tnwingtsun]

As I posted before,no offence intended on my comment about the student having a heart attack.
A bad choice of words on my part,you have my appolgies.
We all know that speed can be relative.
As for variations of techniques from school to school those can also apply from student or group of students.
The nine step push you saw from my school is a little different than what I first learned.
I have learned three versions of Jek Bo,all being very close.
So if I seem fixed on a certain technique or the way they are preformed my intent is only a quest for knowledge.
The concepts are the same,your Sifu's Kung-Fu looks very good and there is no mistaken that it is real Bai Mei.
I look foward to future insights from your group.
As for my opinion on your Sifu's Sub Jee,I think his explosive power is very impressive,as Chen Dor's also,please do not think that I am in anyway judging your Sifu or your school,that position rests not in my hands.
You answered my question about if that was the way Sub Jee is taught in your school,the variations I saw were all Bai Mei,I also enjoyed the applications of the techniques.
Will there be future videos?,the Sub Jee one was put together well.
I will update your website on my end.
Thank you for your well wishes and if I may, wish you and your school well also

[meltdawn]

I'd still like to know how FT's and tnwingtsun's sup jee differ from each others'.

Kwong put his on tape. Let's hear more about yours, FT, this is interesting.

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[chessboxer]

Greetings,


I see that you are a student of Dr. Wong's. I remember seeing him at a weekend seminar a few years back that my sifu had him come. Although personally i have not seen him in some time. How long have you been with Dr. Wong and who have you studied wing chun with. Any memorable moments with Wong?

Humbly yours
Johnny

[tnwingtsun]

Alot of memorable moments,inside and outside of the school.
His younger brother's Kung-Fu is very good too.
http://www.atlantamartialarts.com/schools/ykpc.htm

WingTsun,Leung Ting/Emin Boztepe's branch.
AWTO

[chessboxer]

Greetings,


i did not know that he has a brother. How is the training...rough, a real workout. Mind sharing a memory from your memory bank. i still have a flyer for a chi gung seminar he did last summer, i unfortunately I couldnt go.

Humbly yours
Johnny

[tnwingtsun]

The training when I was there full time was butal.
NHB,no pads or gloves,a loud shout of STOP!!! from Dr.Wong prevented alot of serious injurys.
His brother stopped by often and showed us
some neat things.Dr.Wong is nice compared to his brother(IMHO).
I haven't seen YK Wong in some years but if he's
anything like he used to be he had arms that felt
like he had steel re-bar(see wolverine on X-men)
for bones.
Lots of neat stories about YK,the local police
which I have friends that were on the force
back then when YK owned a restaurant and bar
used to make it a habit of checking YK's
dumpster for knocked out bikers,thats where he liked to put them after he was finished with them
(and lucky for them)
They got a kick out of watching the EMTs fish the bikers out of the trash while YK stood by and grinned,mans got a sence of humor.

[chessboxer]

Greetings,


ouch, didnt know that Dr wong like to run experiments on bikers (lol) i also remember he brought some students with him one time. One of them was a female who did tai chi, she looked very impressive. On a previous post you talked about sparring with bando practioners, how did that come about. From what my sifu has told me some of his students have gotten some bumps and bruises from the hard training. I bet the bikers didnt expect to get hurt from such an unlikely person such as Dr wong. Best to you.

Humbly yours
Johnny

[tnwingtsun]

It was his brother "YK" that sent the bikers
dumpster diving after they started trouble
at his resturant,the Bando came about because
we had three Bando black belts in our class,which they gave up for Bai Mei.
Their Bando friends had schools close
by,well,after getting kicked out of Karate
bouts(we didn't play the tap point game) we knew the Bando people trained with a more combat mind
set than your run of the mill
karate schools,so it was on!,I'm having a hard time with this because it brings back alot of funny stuff.
Before we spared,they were warming up,a bando man and a women were sparing,the guy knocked her out.......COLD,she went to the hospital,never saw her again.
I still have scares from the good old days.
Can't make an omlet unless ya crack some eggs.

[This message was edited by tnwingtsun on 03-13-01 at 12:37 AM.]

[chessboxer]

Greetings,


yes from what i have heard and read bando practioners do have a more combative mind the most point karate schools. Did Dr wong spar with his students..or only the ones that had been around for some time. Sometimes to much point sparing can make you develop bad habits ( my opinion anyways). i hope those scars arent too noticeable. By the way any challange matches happen while you were studying with Dr wong?

Humbly yours
Johnny

[tnwingtsun]

I heard she recovered,It kind of took us
by suprise seeing a girl get knocked out like that.
I think it stayed with us when we went up against them,one of the many things that gave us an edge.
There was a challenge match in Knoxville with
a TKD guy but I was at work keeping the streets safe,lol,yes Wong sometimes spared with us but he took it easy on us,we mainly spared with classmates,but there were other times when local karate and kung-fu instructors came by only to leave beat,some decided to stay,some didn't

[fiercest tiger]

meltdawn -

from what i know, there are as many sup jee forms as there are jik bo forms.

the difference in our sup jee... we do not have ying jee book leung (bird sitting on a perch), we dont have boot choy. we have more handwork with much less footwork.

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[chessboxer]

Greetings,


i agree tnwingtsun, is never easy when you get scrapes and bruises when sparring or learning. A challenge match with a TKD person, sounds interesting. So Wong basically played ref or stopped it before serious injury occured? I still bet Wong showed you things when one of the students spared with him. Best to you

Humbly yours
Johnny

[tnwingtsun]

Check your E-mail

[chessboxer]

greetings,


Tnwingtsun, check your e-mail.


humbly yours

[chessboxer]

Greetings,


Tnwingtsun, check you email i sent you a response to the email you sent me. Take care

[meltdawn]

Dr. Wong is giving a seminar at the St. Pete, FL tourney this weekend. What kind of stuff does he cover in a short session such as this?

Also, will he have any students competing? Forms or fighting?

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[tnwingtsun]

Yes,he left today,last night we went out to eat
and I helped him get some stuff ready.
I'm not able to go this time
but I will in the future,you close to St.Pete?
Like too meet cha,I enjoy your posts,I don't
know what he'll be doing but if you're close by go check him out,I belive its on Sat. ;)

[tnwingtsun]

He laughed when I told him(he likes Rusty) about you and said your welcome anytime
I'll mail ya tomorrow

[tnwingtsun]

You guys never answered me about future videos

[meltdawn]

Missed the tourney. Missed Wong. Did he have any students competing?

Say, 'Wongstudents', do YOU guys have any videos coming out soon? It would be interesting... to say the least.

Did anyone go to Nick's tourney this weekend? Vankuen, you're in the area and competing, did you fight at this one?

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[chessboxer]

Greetings,


tnwingtsun any bak mei footage you have of wong? Any books or vids that you feel would be a good resource of the overall system of bak mei?

Humbly yours

[chessboxer]

greetings,


What about Wongs brother (YK)? I have seen his web page but i have never meet him.

[tnwingtsun]

I haven't talked to him since he left Thurs,
I've been seeing Doctors and laywers all day.
I don't know if he puts out any videos for the
public,think he was going to have the student that ate with us Wed. night push hands in the tourney,forgot his name,don't know many of the new guys names.
As far as his brother "YK" Wong in Atlanta,he is **** good,Yi Chaun I belive is his style,I think its related to Hisng-Yi. :)