Kids and Black Belts

[jon]

My sifu decided to take me along to a full contact Karate tournament the other day as he was trying to drum up support for San Shao and had an invertation for himself and a student.
So along we go to Homebush bay, he gives me the program for the day and i quickly have a look at it to see whats going on. I saw what i orginaly thought was a joke or possibly a horrible misprint.
In the catagorys for both sparring and forms i see...
"8 and 9 year old Black belt division"
I begin to sweat and shake in fear of what im about to see and hope to god this is some kind of bewildering joke.
When i get to the tournament i quickly discover this is infact a VERY real catagory. There where a LOT of eight and nine year olds walking around with black belts. I watched there attempts at fighting and tried to not burst into laughter. I mean fair enough there only kids but then of course this begs the question what the heck is with the black belts???
I mean nearly every kid there was a black belt and they were nearly all terrible. I wont go on about the rest of the karate or fights but man those kids:eek:

Is this just me or does that seem REALLY wrong?
8-9 with a black belt! Does that not strike ANYONE else as basicaly impossible?

PS.
The kids where not FULL contact but controlled continued sparring, they made contact but if anyone looked hurt or shocked the ref would split them.
They where also pairing boys up against girls which was different to see.
The girls where actualy doing pretty well, dont mess with a 9yo black belt chick trying to kick you in the shins and scratch your tummy ;)

[grogan]

Thank God I no longer go to school, imagine being in 3rd grade having an argument over a pokemon card with another kid and then he uses the death touch on you, or waiting in line for the tuckshop and you acidentally bump a black belt girl and before you can say sorry she's holding your liver in her hand. And the parents better watch out too any tantrums and the fists of fury are out.

Advice :- We will soon be dominated by these black belts so remember don't make eye contact with the paperboy or it could be the last thing you do!:D

[curtis]

What is a black belt?
This has a big problem for many years.
When people think of black belt, they think of perfection (or a master of their art) in truth, most martial art's see the black belt as a starting point, not the end result. Sense KIDS are the real money makers in the martial art's. It seems you have to change your thinking about what is...
It's more of view of all or culture, we are all goal oriented. We want to see rapid progression, and results really don't matter. Look at our school systems. I attended a graduation party for a kindergartener last year. (I couldn't believe it! Yes they wore caps and gounds!)
The problem also exists in our adult black belts as well, Why do you think there are so many degrees of black belt?(in so many M/A systems) In truth they're very few people who are willing to work hard enough to achieve the level of a true black belt.
I remember reading about early day monks, in china. It stated that it to 17 years of hard work and study, to achieve their goals. Most people want to achieve the same goal in four years, ( perhaps 5.)
I don't have any answers. But you do point out we have a big problem. (perhaps we should change our ways of thinking?.NOT!)
What I tell people who ask me, After 15yrs of studing WingChunDo (my Art of preferance) I am a REALY GOOD white belt, and I am Working towards my own personalized excellence.
I see the black belt as goal to be reached for. Not to be achieved.

Sincerely C.A.G.

[HuangKaiVun]

It all depends on what one feels a black belt should be.

Many of us feel that a black belt is an award based on combat proficiency.

However, this need not always be the case. If a sensei outlines specific requirements for meeting a black belt and the kids meet them to his satisfaction, why SHOULDN'T the kids be awarded their black belts?

Judge others not by YOUR standards.

[xiong]

I think Huang raises an interesting point. We cannot judge them by our own standards. If there is a set criteria, learning these forms = that belt level, then you are almost forced to give a student the belt when they have reached the requirement.

I think part of where the impetus for promoting kids to black belt comes from is the collection of testing fees. I personally feel that charging students extra money to acknowledge their progress is wrong.

I also feel that what the blackbelt really signifies is, not so much mastery, as a level of commitment and maturity. In our school the blackbelts are the assistant instructors. Again IMO kids need to develop a certain level of maturity before they should be able to gain their black belt, then they should be required to instruct. That is really what the black belt signifies to me, a commitment to teaching.

[dezhen2001]

It depends. Someone elses black belt may not be graded on the same criteria as your own will be... Also, may styles have a different syllabus for kids and adults. For example: you may be a Shodan when you're a kid, but go back down to green or purple or something when you hit the adult age.

I guess it signifies different things for different people. But i agree, it generally su(ks!

david

[Badger]

Ok...so thats 2 McBlackbelts..A McBrownbelt with 3 stripes...2 McBlackbelt Happy Paks...Do you want fries with that?....please drive to the second window please....

[ewallace]

Hopefully it was opposites day and the white belts really wore black.

It's a false sense of security. Just like boxerChikdude's thread about a tkd chick getting beat on by an untrained fighter. Regardless if they fulfill the school's requirements, a kid with the coveted black belt is bound to feel a great margin of safety and combat proficiency. This is by no fault of the kids themselves. It gives the parents something to talk about before PTA meetings and halftime at soccer games. It also brings money for the school.

Karate is an excellent thing to give a kid. It teaches respect, self-awareness and discipline. I have seen very few that truely understand that their skills would amount to precisely jack if a 230 pound man was attempting to harm them. This transers over into adulthood.

[Ray Pina]

I was one of those kids, but was like 12 or 13 when I became a Black Belt. I started when I was 4.

Yes. I was too young to be a black belt. But yet, I used to train 5 days a week, two classes on each of those days once I became a brown belt. I was beating grown men in point sparring at my school and I'm sure my sensei felt pressure to promote me after I completed the forms, broke the boards and continued to win trophies in my division. How many parents would keep paying tuition if there kids was still a green belt after 8 years.

Too be honest, I never cared about the belts all that much. I used to go away on vacation in the summer for a few months and when I got back all the other kids were promoted. I think my sensei kind of did it on purpose to push me further.

So in the end, on principle, I agree with you. A Black Belt should be able to kick much but, not just same age or size butt. But on the other hand, my sensei told me this when he handed me my black belt: This is really your white belt, your training is just starting.

If those kids stay with it, by the time they grow into themselves and get some power, they will have a great foundation. Wish them well. Hopefully they will grow beyond the commercialization and seek out a good sifu or senei and take their art to the next level. They are 8. If they stay with it how good will they be at 28?

[Budokan]

I want a hot apple pie with my McBlackBelt.

[Black Jack]

Belts are only good to hold up your pants.

Mister Miyagi was the bomb! Talk about speaking the truth:)

[Kristoffer]

I wish my parents had thrown me into ANY MA when I was 4.... stupid piano lessons :(

[wu_de36]

Most systems require about 3-5 years of study to attain a 1st degree black belt. A first degree black belt means roughly squat in the grand scheme of things. It essentially means you've managed to survive a good deal of weeding out, and have probably shown your instructor that you have some desire to start really learning. You are an "advanced beginner."

- 1 in 20 people who join a dojang probably make it to cho dan. and that is a generous statistic.

- from there, maybe 1/10th of all cho dans make it to e dan. a lot of them you'll never see again after the belt is tied around their waist.

- 1/10th of 2nd degree holders will stick around for sam dan (3rd degree) and maybe 1/100th of all Sam Dans will move on from there. (Sa Dan is a 'master' rank and would take you roughly 20-25 years to attain.)

from there, you still have several levels, which means the cycle of learning never stops. if it does, it is your choice to remain stagnant.

So if there is a 10 year old kid who has made it to a low grade black belt, who cares? Maybe it means they have studied since they were five, and 15 to 20 years from now, when they are your age, and have been studying constantly since then, they will be able to knock the **** out of you.

Are kids going to get a bit of an ego trip from being a black belt. Probably about as much of one as certain CMA practitioners who look at them and say "hmmph, we don't need no steenking belts to show us how good we are!"

Rank is not the end-all-be-all of training, and a lot more kids realize that than you think. There are no 12 year old e dans who think that they can take a 25 year old cho dan in a street fight. And if there are, they get weeded out Darwin-style.

So what's the big deal about black belt? It's a great intermediate goal. But when you pass it, you should be saying "what's next?" instead of "finished!" Some people say "finished" and walk around with their head in the sand for the rest of their life, thinking their black belt is a talisman to ward off thugs.

"Don't judge the whole world by your shi tt y standards."

[Dark Knight]

the governing bodies of certain sports do have standards of age. United States Ju-Jitsu Federation, has min ages for each rank (that also means no 40 year old 10th deegrees) These are international standards.

This is the problem with anybody opening a school. that way they can have the worlds youngest blackbelts.

[Ray Pina]

Actually, I remember at one tourmanent,a bunch of karate moms bit(hed because I was the only black belt in the age group, the other kids my age were brown belts. So they moved me up to the 15 to 17 group.

I remember winning one fight. Then another. Then squared off against a korean TKD kid. He beat me and I turned into a little bit(h and cried. My father gave me a good talking too but I didn't care. Then I saw my sensei and felt like a wuss. He said a few words which straigned me right up. Turns out I got third, the kid who beat me be the next guy and got first, with his second victim taking second.

To me, I learned a lot from that. I was able to step up to fight some older kids which made me feel good about my training, but I learned I had a lot to work on as a martial artists -- I let myself down crying, caring so much about not coming home with a trophy.

When they gave it to me I felt kind of bad. I lost and still got a trophy. To this day, its the biggest trophy I have (in my dad's basement now) but the least valuable, because when I see it even today I think about being a sorry sport.

Live and learn I guess. Martial Arts teaches a lot on different levels. Those kids are learning discipline, self respect, mutual respect, curtisy. Everytime they bow they learn to be humble.

[Chang Style Novice]

That's a great story, EF.

[yenhoi]

Why do you care what color a 8 year olds belt is?

Unless its your kid and your concerned he is gaining a false sense of security?

A 8 year old has no security in a fight, regardless of belt color.
The only people I can see a 8 year old fighting is other kids anyways, let them have thier fun and get beat up.

Id say its nice to see so many children putting in the effort, even not knowing what the standards are for getting each particular schools black colored belt. Id say theres a higher chance of the kid remaining at the school, or at least in the MA community because he has 'achieved' this much so far.

What the hell?

[curtis]

I'd guess the question is, what is. Not what should be a black belt.
I don't disagree with helping kids learn the martial art's. There are many things that will help a child mature into the person they would like to be. But I would like to point out, something everyone seems to be missing.
Self-worth, self-respect, and self-confidence cannot be given to anyone. They must be earned! Otherwise you will be building a fault's allusion, that will crumble easily under stress.
Like a good sword you must have strong backing, so that when you mean resistance you do not break.
There's nothing wrong with giving someone a pat on the back, and telling them they did a good job. But It's entirely different to give someone a rank they do not deserve. By lowering your standards to make someone feel good, is wrong in my opinion.
Perhaps junior black belt. Ok but it seems to me as you're walking a very fine line.
C.A.G.

[Arioch7]

Its junk. The American system of marketing and Capitalism breeds this stuff.

I agree with just about everyone here. A Black-Belt means to me mastery over the basics of a MArtial Art. You are not a master, but you have become proficient with the basics.

My idea of a black belt would disqualify just about 90% of the child black belts today.

A Black Belt signifies that you have learned the BASICS of the art and you are ready for deeper teachings.

In the US, we use belt rankings to take the measure of the students. So, if a 10 year old is much better then other ten year olds, he must be a black belt. Things here HAVE to be organized so parents can keep score.

I trained in a Chinese system that did not use belts and that is how I like it. I am proud of my "medals" and "belts"of my other MA's... who wouldn't be? I am human, it feels good to see yourself as a black belt.

I have NEVER in my life told fellow MA's I am a black belt(You all are the first, forgive me. Although I have said First Dan when talking to members of my group. See First Dan is PATHETIC!) I just say "I train!"

I know A LOT of Black Belts but I dont know many people who "Just train!" if you get my drift.

Bottom line, the belt deal is just a marketing scam and it does do wonders for the ego. Is it good, for my kids no, but I can see the value in it. Hint: I dont have any kids so all I have said is IMMEDIATELY SUSPECT! ;)

[jon]

Thanks for everyones posts.
First of all i like many came though TKD and Karate into CMA and hold a decent rank (brown belt) in two styles of TKD and also hold an orange belt in Karate.
I was never given any of them easily and all required board breaking and form demonstration as well as sparring. I was only 12 when i started myself.
Just as Curtis above me has stated i believe that a black belt should signify fully understanding the basics. An eight year old child does NOT understand the basics.
The public have a perception that a 'black belt' is GOOD. How many times have we all been asked if we are a black belt yet?
To give a small child a black belt is in some ways in my opinion dangerous. As another poster pointed out (very amusingly) try to imagine going to primary school with kids like this? They are going to think there the rulers of the school.
I dont begrudge children gaining rank but i DO begrudge people who dont deserve there grades. As stated i saw these kids spar and whilst they were young i remind you they were not impressive!
This to me is the problem i look at a child in a black belt and assume they must be pretty decent, then i see them and its the opposite. If me and every person who is in that crowd is on a subcontious level making the same inner judgement what do you think will happen to the reputation of these arts over time?

My point here is that black belts have really lost what they used to mean.

I dont begrudge kids learning karate and i dont begrude them eventualy gaining rank. I think its rediculous to give a child under 10 a 'black belt' and i also think it says something about how the west has taken to the Traditional arts.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by curtis
What is a black belt?
This has a big problem for many years.
When people think of black belt, they think of perfection (or a master of their art) in truth, most martial art's see the black belt as a starting point, not the end result.

Then what is a white belt mean?:D

[jon]

"Then what is a white belt mean?"
* They cant afford the grading fee:p

[wushu chik]

OK...my turn!! :D I have known young black belts...in different styles, and they all shared the same thing...they all had knowledge, but didn't know how to use it. I felt sorry for them. i have seen them get older, and get better, but still, being 2nd 3rd and 4th degree blackbelts now...they still can't defend themselves. i don't blame them, i blame their teacher & rents.

Second...when you are a blackbelt, you should know how to conduct yourself as one. Not a bunch of 9 y.o. kids that have their black belts running around doing "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle" kicks and "Power Ranger" punching. See what I mean here? I know it's been said and all, i just think prepubescent kids shouldn't get that kind of responsibility! I think it's really sad that they are handed it at such an early age. But again i blame their teacher & rents for the stupidity!

~Wen~

[curtis]

NorthernMantis
A white belt is a beginner, a black belt means to have learned the entire basics of the system (or fully understand the system, in which you, really start learning.) think of it as you're public schools system, K-12.
Kindergarten is white belt and black belt is 12th grade, so I guess 1st dan would-be college,2nd would-be your masters degree...? Who knows? Perhaps black belt is sixth-grade not 12th. (What ever!)
I personally see black belt as the end. (The goal to be reached for. Not to be achieved.) It's striving for, that is important, not the achieving that matters.
And rank really means very little. (The proof will be in the pudding, so to speak. CAN YOU DO IT!)
For me it will it take a lifetime to achieve my goals. But that's my goal.
Have a good day! C.A.G.