Non-telegraphed Kicks

[BiNKy]

It took me forever learning how to throw a powerful lead leg muay thai hook kick without wanting to draw back and give it away. I was use to throwing traditional kung fu kicks like side kick, front thrust, mule kick, snap kick, round house. All of those are great but they chamber. Anyone else out there really like those non telegraphed muay thai kicks? I want to find a kick boxing or muay thai school so that I could become more proficient at it but theres not **** around here like that. Sure you could go TKD to learn pretty kicks but I want the ugly effective kicks that bring down the house.

[JWTAYLOR]

I haven't seen too many hook kicks in MT. Lots of round house kicks, but not allot of hooks.

JWT

[ewallace]

JF/JKD uses a stop kick. Basically your lead leg just swings up, no chambering or telegraphing. Very awekward at first. Not the most powerful kick. It is used more for stoping an incoming attack. Place it right and it is very effective.

[ewallace]

Just checked your profile and saw that you have JKD on there. Did you train under Sifu Davis by any chance?

[fa_jing]

FYI- Some styles refer to round house kicks as hook kicks.

[JWTAYLOR]

Yeah but in his post he specifically mentions both the round house and the hook.

JWT

[Chang Style Novice]

help this non-kicker out, wooja?

A roundhouse keeps the leg straight, throws the hip forward, and generally involves a step forward and consequent direction change in facing after it's thrown, right? It would connect at either the top of the foot or the shin?

A hook kick starts off in one direction with leg straight, then pulls in the other and gets power from the hip being thrown backward in conjunction with the knee bending and sending the foot toward the buttock, correct? It would connect with heel or calf?

Or am I waaaay off?

[fa_jing]

That's one kind of hook kick but the other way the term is used is for a kick similar to the roundhouse. I believe this kind of hook kick is not chambered and that's the difference. This all might be a lot more clear if we continue the conversation in Chinese.
Qing ni Gei wo Qiao mien.

:D

[Ray Pina]

In E-chuan, all the kicks start from the same delivery and change at the apropriate time considering the situation. Fists the same way: hook, uppercut, both start the same way, only change at the end. Makes it simple.

[Chang Style Novice]

"This all might be a lot more clear if we continue the conversation in Chinese."

Clearer for you, maybe!

[Justa Man]

i've made up a kick that doesn't chamber. in actuality this kick prolly exists in some system, but it's not a kick taught in the ba gua i study. so, let's say my "fighting stance" is 50/50 weight distribution. i pick up my front foot and snap kick it out (knee level). since i don't chamber, i move forward as i kick. i just slide my rear foot up immediately after the front foot lands on the floor. does that make sense? i mean, it works well right now in sparring when i get the distance right, but can you picture what i'm doing? so as i kick, i'm pushing off of my rear foot. it's hard right now getting the distance right, especially in free sparring, but i think it's a good weapon.

[ewallace]

JM - Similair to our pendulum kick. Rear foot slides up to where the front foot is. Then the front leg shoots out. Kicking leg is then retracted, placed down where the rear foot is and the rear foot slides back. You end up in the same spot you began.

[Justa Man]

yea, but only if your front foot acts first. i just practiced it in my cubicle and i only move up a half step. i guess i'll explode further the better i get at it. do you feel you chamber when doing your pendulum kick?

[ewallace]

make sure you read my edited post.

No chamber at all.

[Justa Man]

ahhhh, i see. hmmm. why would you move back though? i see it as, move in to kick and stay in to follow up with hands, elbows, whatever. to me moving back would only bring you back to square 1 with the guy....both of you facing off again.
i'm not trying to diss btw, just wondering.

[ewallace]

IMO I retain a better stance by placing the foot at the same place it was in rather then falling forward and re-adjusting after impact. Plus it minimizes the chance of rolling an ankle by landing on their foot.

[Justa Man]

ok, i see that. do you ever do ankle presses? basically, just walking/stomping onto the guys foot/ankle to jam him or force him to the ground? i do this also sometimes and haven't rolled an ankle...yet.

[ewallace]

Nope.

[Justa Man]

really. e i just noticed you study jun fan/jkd. i figured an ankle jam would fit right into the jkd concept of closed weapon/closest target.
like the kick i was describing. kick to the knee and come down right on the ankle. that would prolly divert opponents intention enough for you to trap and use hands inside. you should bust that out on your jkd brothers and see what happens. :)

[Arioch7]

Tae Kwon Do has excellant hook kicks that are not telegraphed.

As a matter of fact, the TKD hook kick looks like a side kick or a roundhouse kick and is very deceptive.

I dont care if you hate TKD. I have torn it apart myself on these forums but it has valuable skills, especially for kickers.

[Stacey]

Yes TKD has amazing kicks....but its not the TKD per se. Its the Northern Leg thing. TKD kicks (traditional with power) are the same as kicking in Northern praying mantis. In 8 step we point the knee first and then any kick can come. Its direct and limitless. The kicking is the same.

I have been told by my betters, some of whom were blackbelts in tkd before 8 step that the kicking is the same. There is some variation, but its hard to chategorize a kick. A mantis kick (roundhouse) is gonna be the same as tkd or muay thai.



As for not telegraphing, the answer is in strong, fast abs, flexebility, the ability to hold your leg in the air on its own..ie strong hip flexors. And then doing it thousands of times.

In 8 step, kicking and punching are basically the same. One force pushes the earth, one whips at the target via the dan tien.

After Tai Chi my kicks are often better, the answer is in relaxing the legs, but especially the waist. Not putting the breaks on is the secret of kicking
power.

Also pivoting as your kick and not stepping first(like in soccer)) is a way to reduce telegraphing. There are a thousand little tricks to getting your kicks in. Last minute rises and falls, slight pivots, delayes shoulder following, fakes , low kicks, double kicks, knees. Its a whole other world down there.

www.8step.com