Wing Chun on the street.

[DelicateSound]

OK, I know some of you Wing Chun guys are touchy :D and that not everyone on this board knows me, so:

DISCLAIMER:

*THIS IS NOT A TROLL, I REPEAT THIS IS NOT A TROLL*


OK?! Read that at least twice. I'm very interested in starting Wing Chun, and I'm after some guys [and gals] who are knowledgable in Wing Chun to answer a few questions.


I'm interested in the street/reality applications of Wing Chun. From what I've studied, it seems way different to anything else I've ever done, and seems a lot softer. My main question is: How can this be applied in the street? but I'll break it up into managable pieces :)


1) Stance: How do you guys usually stand, considering the lethality of the tackle? I'm talking about sprawl preparation here, after all, you do fight close-in, so it's a danger, no?

2) Blocking and Trapping: How do you prepare for the clinch, how can it be avoided?


BONUS QUESTION [for 5 points] :) All this "sensitivity" crap! I'm getting to be pretty well built, will this be detrimental?


Like I've said - this is not a troll, and I'm not trying to instigate trouble, so don't make me use a psychic Chi-Blast [TM] on anyone OK?!! :)

[rubthebuddha]

delicate --

let's hit your questions one by one ...

1. stance varies depending on lineage. however, those with good footwork address the wrestling tackle pretty well. i don't wrestle, so anyone willing to shoot or tackle me has hostile intentions. that said, the fact that anyone shooting in is leaving their head wide open. lots of grapplers accept this drawback in order to get the legs. however, you get someone nicely on the back of the head or on the neck, your legs won't be the most important issue anymore.

for a tackle dealing with the upper body, a person focusing on grabbing the body and taking it down has the disadvantage of exposing their head. shut down the head, you shut down the person, period.

2. as far as the clinch? a few basic techniques, such as a lan sau, make the clinch difficult and often quite painful. my kwoon also teaches muay thai as a side program, and some of the strongest clinchers don't like a good lan sau.


also, when a wing chun person talks about sensitivity, he or she is NOT talking about weakness. instead, that person has better bodily control and does not rely on their strength to deal with an attack. instead, they take advantage of the body's natural structure, the attackers force/energy and flow with it, same as water would. an opening turns up, they're through, usually with more fists, palms, elbows and fingers than you can count. the idea is based on flowing rather than fighting. it's difficult to tell -- i'd rather show you and let you feel why certain things just work a certain way.

now put this all on the street -- you won't always know when an attack is coming. someone comes up behind you with a bottle and knocks you cold, the best jujutsu or wing chun or judo training won't mean a thing, because all you're going to be is an unconscious, skilled practitioner of your chosen art. but by drilling things like sensitivity in your WHOLE BODY, you learn to move with, not against, a person's attack and when an opening arrives, you take it and wring all you can from it. your body will react better, usually without you even thinking about it, and if you're good enough, you'll have an uglified attacker who will require dental work when he comes to and hopefully a chance to get the hell away.

[yuanfen]

But he wants to know all about wing chun ina short list post.
My position is probably a minority position. I urge people often -not to take wing chun. Too many mediocre wing chunners around anyways. AND- wing chun shouldnt have to be sold.
You ask what wing chun would do in certain situations. Wing chun is very practical and each situation is unique. Wing chun prepares you to respond to what is before you. I could tell you about actual street applications in cases that I know of- but that wouldnt help you. No one can do your work for you. If you are in doubt- take something else-
and good luck.

[Rolling_Hand]

--I urge people often -not to take wing chun. Too many mediocre wing chun around anyways.

LOL...!!!
Take the bad with the good. Just make sure you're trading up and not down.
hahaha....something you saw as being further down the road is suddenly staring you in the face.

[popsider]

Sometimes doing bad wing chun for a while can help you recognise good wing chun when you see it.

[domme]

..., I think we enjoy the same music :D

Answering your questions:
In my opinion wing chun is something happening in the kwoon (school). After leaving, wing chun is the training method you go. wc changes the use and the knowledge of your body and the structure necessary for self-defense or fighting. You will not fight with wing chun, but with your body.

1. Normally you cannot decide your stance, when someone attacks you, so you will avoid the attack by your momentary way of solving the attack. Specific stances are for exercices, finding your balance, moving it and using it against your training partner.

2. In the defense, you follow different "principels". There are different interpretations and numbers of them in the different wc-lineages. Some call them kuen kuit, some principles. Normally, you occupy the center-line and control it. This means, you have your hands before you, supported by a smart elbow position (oh ****, stumbly explanation ;) ) and do not overextend your "blocks" out of this space, your attacks go straight to the open areas your opponent will offer or you create. This is a little idealized, it depends on the training and understanding of your wc-training.

The sensitivity crap is for sense the stability of your opponent and avoid the conflict of both your balances, but to lerarn how to disturb the balance of the other. First, you learn to read the direction of the other arms, then you will feel in the body of the other, so you can "read" his stance and movement.

So, my girlfriend asks for breakfast.

greetings

domme

[dezhen2001]

Hey mate - still not found a WC teacher yet? ;)
I'm not a very knoweledgeable person at all, but still, the 5 bonus points are very enticing, so i thought i'd chip in :D

1) stance when training is natural and balanced, to help you learn how to grip the ground and have good posture. Also teaches you how to find/keep your balance and deal with your partners energy.

In a real fight, it keeps changing, so you have to be able to move forward, back and to the side with ease. I guess as the stance is short and natural, sprawling (if it came to it) would be relatively easy.

2) Simultaneous attack and defence is very useful. Clinching i haven't done yet. But i am sure there are plenty of useful things you can do :) Hitting them for one thing...

Once you learn how to deal with the energy certain types of movements have, you should be able to effectively deal with a situation (ie. do a lot of chi sau to learn this).

bonus quesiton: Being well built shouldn't be a problem as long as you try to stay relaxed. When you're a beginner it really sucks anyway (so tense like me!). As long as you don't try to use your bulging muscle strength to do everything (;)) and have a good Sifu it shouldn't be a problem.

Asking specific questions about an area of combat you're worried about or intereste din doesn't hurt. As long as you don't judge the whole system on that alone! Getting the opinion of others when you're stuck with something can often offer interesting ideas that you may have not thought of.

Delicate isn't a troll, he's a member of the ATO (anti-troll orgasnisation) anywayz! :D

easy mate,

david

[Rolling_Hand]

--Sometimes doing bad wing chun for a while can help you recognise good wing chun when you see it.

Yeah...take the bad with the good. For elementary intro/in learning one can begin by looking at videos by such people Augustine Fong & Todd Shawn Tei. To find a good wing chun teacher further down the road...you'll have to go behind people's backs to see if an option is worth pursuing. Jumping through the hoops is a hassles, but this gets the person's imagination working. WSL, Victor Kan, William Cheung and Chu Sheung Tin - they certainly can show you what's good wing chun!

[Matrix]

Originally posted by popsider
Sometimes doing bad wing chun for a while can help you recognise good wing chun when you see it. Sometimes you can find a scrap of food in a dumpster. It's just not worth it, and you'll just develop bad habits.

Doing good Wing Chun so that I can recognise bad Wing Chun when I see it, is a much preferable methodology.

Matrix

[Rolling_Hand]

you're offered a consulting role. This isn't something you usually do. Keep doing what you're doing. You're on the right path.

[CLOUD ONE]

It seems you have been busy.
Which system do you prefer?
Why are there differences in the systems you prescribe to down the road?

I don't think Yuanfen is going to bite but nice try!!!

[Rolling_Hand]

--It seems you have been busy

Thankfully, your quick thinking gives you an added boost.

--Which system do you prefer?

There's nothing to be gained by keeping things up in the air. If anything, you've got it from Augustine Fong and Todd Shawn Tei.

--Why are there difference in the systems you prescribe to down the road?

This is a time when your faith and conviction will be tested.

--I don't think yuenfen is going to bite but nice try!!!

Don't read too much into the downturn in prospects. Yuanfen has a more accurate idea of his abilities than you. Nice try!

[dedalus]

Nice post dude. I totally agree with your comments on sensitivity ;)

Just with regard to the original question - some of the biggest guys I've met in martial arts have been wing chun fighters. That kinda surprised me at first, since I used to suffer from the misconception that wing chun was a women's style (no need to hurl abuse, I'm much better informed these days ;) ). Anyhow, I've seen some great wing chun from big guys, and I've seen some great wing chun from little guys. The art seems quite versatile in this respect, and I think that in the end you make it your own anyway.

[CLOUD ONE]

Thank you for noticing me Rolling Hand.

I for one take value of everyones post and there is always something to be learned whether you chi sau with a high level practioner as yourself or a beginner like me.

If you put yourself below people wouldn't you benefit more, than if you put yourself above?

So what you are saying about master Fong and master Todd is that they think highly of themselves?

[Merryprankster]

rubthebuddha--

It's kinda clear you don't wrestle.

A good shot need not leave the head open. Done properly for "fighting," the hands are in a position to protect the face and head until the leg is actually clasped.

Once you grab the leg nicely, that incoming elbow or hand from your phenomenally off-balanced opponent is no longer much of a concern....

Eliminate their control of the leg FIRST, address smacking them around for their temerity secondly. Otherwise, you are more probably going to wind up on your butt than he is to be knocked silly.

[Rolling_Hand]

--If you put yourself below people wouldn't you benefit more, than if you put yourself above?

Part of you wants to see an endeavor through while another part would rather pull up stakes. Stay true!!!

--So what you are saying about master Fong and master Todd is that they think highly of themselves?

Your inclination is to stonewall, but it's time to face the music.
Please don't mind me...cha chacha...tell me a lie, tell me a sweet lie!!!

[CLOUD ONE]

--Part of you wants to see an endeavor through while another part would rather pull up stakes. Stay true!!!

Resurection isn't my style, WH wasn't a success story, yuanfen?
Keep your focus, you only have one choice!!!

--Your inclination is to stonewall, but it's time to face the music.
Please don't mind me...cha chacha...tell me a lie, tell me a sweet lie!!!

My strength is my weakness!!!
"rising up..........it's time for the will to survive...."

[Rolling_Hand]

I see, you've been following me from Bak Mei mountain to Wing Chun mountain.
Hahaha...A bumpy time, but this is your chance to make it right.
Please feel free to have another cup of tea.

[DelicateSound]

Rolling Hand and Cloud One - Guys, please don't hijack my post with infighting! :) [although I must say, its far more polite than anywhere else]

MPS - I hate to say that I agree !!! :D I'm very nervous when it comes to the tackle as I've seen it done, though in principle I agree with RubtheBuddah, in practise I'd go with you.


Dehzen - Nope - I'm still looking. When I go to Uni I'll be OK, but for now I'm buggered. I'm considering learnig forms from books as a last resort, but I don't want to do them badly and get into bad habits.


This means, you have your hands before you, supported by a smart elbow position and do not overextend your "blocks" out of this space, your attacks go straight to the open areas your opponent will offer or you create. This is a little idealized, it depends on the training and understanding of your wc-training.

OK - I'm pretty much familiar with what you've described.

One big question is how do you deal with a larger opponant that is occupying greater space and has a reach advantage. I know WC works in close, but how do you work against hooks and uppers. This is for anyone here BTW!! :)